I'm sure this has come up before, but I can't find the exact question so I'll try again. Sorry if this turns out to be a repost.
Anyway, I'm DMing a party of very experienced players who have followed through some epic 5e adventures for over 3 years. The PCs are now Lv. 11-12. We're playing virtually through Discord.
They are traveling through the forest on their pursuit of the Macguffin. Another BBEG also wants the Macguffin. I wanted to have them deal with the Predator, sent by BBEG. The real deal. I figured I'd use stats from a Phaerimm, and just narrate the environment.
So clearly, the Predator is invisible unless it takes damage or chooses not to be. I tried to be fair by having each PC roll a perception check at the start of each round to detect movement on the part of P. Funny enough, the first time one detected movement, they all went berserk firing blindly just like the movie, with similar success. In future rounds, I informed each PC of the results of their perception check by PM. Each perceived nothing more than movement, its distance, and direction. Some chose to use that info to throw AOE spells in that direction, others to shoot.
Conflict arose when one of the PCs threw Scorching Ray at the movement she saw. The first attack roll was a Nat20, the next two not; (I had her roll damage for the first because I try to allow Nat20 to be auto-success; the other two were misses despite being good rolls.) She felt that since she had scored a hit on the first roll, she should be allowed to "adjust her fire" on the next two and still hit. I said no.
The mechanics of invisibility don't seem to address this kind of narrative. Just calling the Predator "heavily obscured" doesn't really have much narrative flavor.
A solo monster like that should get legendary actions. And one of them should be to reposition. Maybe it also lets him hide before he moves, or maybe he has to use one legendary action to hide, and then another one to move later, but that would be very technical and usually bad.
Invisibility is pretty spot on. For more Predator flavoring you might consider the invisibility shorting out if it takes damage, Similar to how the real Predator camouflages sometimes do. Mechanically this might be something like the DC for spotting or hitting the Predator dropping by 5 each time it takes damage. In the instance of the Scortching ray, that might play out to let the later rolls hit. Obviously they might have better chances to determine it's presence if they're doing listening checks as well.
But you want to have them constantly on edge. Not every sound is the Predator, sometimes it's a wild boar and they unload all their ammunition into it, laugh it off a bit but then discover that an NPC's body they were keeping has been taken while they were distracted by the boar. Just to really unsettle them. The predator might even encounter other monsters as it stalks them and suddenly they happen upon the skinned carcass of an owlbear with head and spine removed.
I'm sure this has come up before, but I can't find the exact question so I'll try again. Sorry if this turns out to be a repost.
Anyway, I'm DMing a party of very experienced players who have followed through some epic 5e adventures for over 3 years. The PCs are now Lv. 11-12. We're playing virtually through Discord.
They are traveling through the forest on their pursuit of the Macguffin. Another BBEG also wants the Macguffin. I wanted to have them deal with the Predator, sent by BBEG. The real deal. I figured I'd use stats from a Phaerimm, and just narrate the environment.
So clearly, the Predator is invisible unless it takes damage or chooses not to be. I tried to be fair by having each PC roll a perception check at the start of each round to detect movement on the part of P. Funny enough, the first time one detected movement, they all went berserk firing blindly just like the movie, with similar success. In future rounds, I informed each PC of the results of their perception check by PM. Each perceived nothing more than movement, its distance, and direction. Some chose to use that info to throw AOE spells in that direction, others to shoot.
Conflict arose when one of the PCs threw Scorching Ray at the movement she saw. The first attack roll was a Nat20, the next two not; (I had her roll damage for the first because I try to allow Nat20 to be auto-success; the other two were misses despite being good rolls.) She felt that since she had scored a hit on the first roll, she should be allowed to "adjust her fire" on the next two and still hit. I said no.
The mechanics of invisibility don't seem to address this kind of narrative. Just calling the Predator "heavily obscured" doesn't really have much narrative flavor.
What can I do better?
For starters, you can obey the actual mechanics of being unseen, which means everyone attacking your "Predator" is rolling at disadvantage unless the Predator's invisibility drops.
If that ends up too powerful for what you intended, make it easier for the invisibility to drop - for example, the Predator's invisibility could drop whenever it's critically hit.
I'm sure this has come up before, but I can't find the exact question so I'll try again. Sorry if this turns out to be a repost.
Anyway, I'm DMing a party of very experienced players who have followed through some epic 5e adventures for over 3 years. The PCs are now Lv. 11-12. We're playing virtually through Discord.
They are traveling through the forest on their pursuit of the Macguffin. Another BBEG also wants the Macguffin. I wanted to have them deal with the Predator, sent by BBEG. The real deal. I figured I'd use stats from a Phaerimm, and just narrate the environment.
So clearly, the Predator is invisible unless it takes damage or chooses not to be. I tried to be fair by having each PC roll a perception check at the start of each round to detect movement on the part of P. Funny enough, the first time one detected movement, they all went berserk firing blindly just like the movie, with similar success. In future rounds, I informed each PC of the results of their perception check by PM. Each perceived nothing more than movement, its distance, and direction. Some chose to use that info to throw AOE spells in that direction, others to shoot.
Conflict arose when one of the PCs threw Scorching Ray at the movement she saw. The first attack roll was a Nat20, the next two not; (I had her roll damage for the first because I try to allow Nat20 to be auto-success; the other two were misses despite being good rolls.) She felt that since she had scored a hit on the first roll, she should be allowed to "adjust her fire" on the next two and still hit. I said no.
The mechanics of invisibility don't seem to address this kind of narrative. Just calling the Predator "heavily obscured" doesn't really have much narrative flavor.
What can I do better?
For starters, you can obey the actual mechanics of being unseen, which means everyone attacking your "Predator" is rolling at disadvantage unless the Predator's invisibility drops.
>> My point was that the "actual mechanics" of being unseen don't speak to this narrative. Referring back to the movie, it took Dutch's team half the movie to even figure out what the Predator was, much less see and target it. Attacking at disadvantage seems like a weak representation of that story. (I mean, Jesse Ventura rolled all nat-1s with the minigun? Come on.)
>>I'm trying to replicate the what-the-hell-is-this-enemy vibe the movie used. Of note: this is a party that has already survived the original Tomb of Horrors. IMHO, they need to come down a peg. Very Gygax of me.
If that ends up too powerful for what you intended, make it easier for the invisibility to drop - for example, the Predator's invisibility could drop whenever it's critically hit.
Also, can you share the Phaerimm stats you're using? I haven't seen any for 5e.
Also also, check out the Orthon from Monsters of the Multiverse. It's a clear take on the Predator monster, though probably too weak for your party.
Bear in mind Orthons are needlessly overpowered against Barbarians due to the remarkably poor choice rampant in MPMM of having weapons deal force damage.
For starters, you can obey the actual mechanics of being unseen, which means everyone attacking your "Predator" is rolling at disadvantage unless the Predator's invisibility drops.
>> My point was that the "actual mechanics" of being unseen don't speak to this narrative. Referring back to the movie, it took Dutch's team half the movie to even figure out what the Predator was, much less see and target it. Attacking at disadvantage seems like a weak representation of that story. (I mean, Jesse Ventura rolled all nat-1s with the minigun? Come on.)
Have you read the statblock of an invisible stalker? They are permanently invisible, and so without the ability to see invisible creatures, you literally can't see one, period.
Attacking at disadvantage only works once you know where the target is and even then you don't know what the target looks like.
>>I'm trying to replicate the what-the-hell-is-this-enemy vibe the movie used. Of note: this is a party that has already survived the original Tomb of Horrors. IMHO, they need to come down a peg. Very Gygax of me.
If that ends up too powerful for what you intended, make it easier for the invisibility to drop - for example, the Predator's invisibility could drop whenever it's critically hit.
>>No, I want to make him HARDER to hit.
Give an invisible stalker a higher Dexterity score/some armor/proficiency in Dex saves and you'll achieve that. If your Predator has a ranged weapon, it'll be even harder to deduce its location. If you want to lean harder into making it harder to find, upgrade its Stealth, e.g. by giving it Reliable Talent or permanent Advantage (or both).
Also, if that's what you're after, I think you're in the wrong forum - this is the forum for determining what the RAW is. There are other fora for both DM advice and Homebrew advice.
Also, can you share the Phaerimm stats you're using? I haven't seen any for 5e.
Also also, check out the Orthon from Monsters of the Multiverse. It's a clear take on the Predator monster, though probably too weak for your party.
Bear in mind Orthons are needlessly overpowered against Barbarians due to the remarkably poor choice rampant in MPMM of having weapons deal force damage.
It's been a minute since I've seen Predator but I feel like Arnold doesn't get shot very many times in it, so for this one and this one alone I'm okay with the stupid force weapons.
>>>Also, if that's what you're after, I think you're in the wrong forum - this is the forum for determining what the RAW is. There are other fora for both DM advice and Homebrew advice.
I have. Put a lot of thought into which statblock to use. A Stalker gives us perma-invisibility, but lacks the firepower of a phaerimm. I thought the phaerimm gave more of the Predator flavor than the IS. I've been playing it where the phaerimm uses Confusion, Mass Suggestion, and Minor illusion to break the party apart before attacking the one carrying the macGuffin.
Phaerimm are statted in Minsc and Boo's Journal of Villainy. That's WOTC canon, right?
MaB:JoV is not canon, as far as I know. I did forget all about it though, since it doesn't show up on Beyond.
I remember wanting the Phaerimm stats when I was running SKT because one of the extracurricular articles about one of the villains mentioned them and I was gonna use them.
Any Solo creature vs any party 5th level and above should start to use Legendary actions, otherwise they get killed quickly. Legendary actions help combat that 4-7 players with actions vs a single action. Start with a base creature and beef it up. Look at other creatures with Legendary actions and adapt them.
Permanent (or semi-permanent) Invisibility should be key here. Make its suit 'Stealthy' All attack and perceptions rolls (sight/sound) have disadvantage. All of the Predator's attacks have Advantage due to the invisibility. Even outside of invisibility one might consider it blurred like the spell or Displacer Beast.
Make them take Actions to see it. One has to point out where it is (where they THINK it is) and the rest can try and attack. Or bonus action at least.
As a GM with a new monster, run it though a playtest by yourself. You have all your PC's stats. Run a few rounds of mock combat and see how it works. Kinda like playing chess vs oneself. The goal it to provide a real threat and sense of terror. Make up some trial powers and see how it works!
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Remember there are Rules as Written (RAW), Rules as Intended (RAI), and Rules as Fun (RAF). There's some great RAW, RAI, and RAF here... please check in with your DM to determine how they want to adjudicate the RAW/RAI/RAF for your game.
Invisibility only goes so far. Your players should be using ready action to inflict real damage whenever they manage to spot the Predator. If it's a succesful perception check, then it would still be at disadvantage - if it's because the stealth drops, that's just an attack roll.
Also, Faerie Fire would end the encounter pretty much immediately.
But if you want it harder to hit, then higher AC, maybe Evasion, and use terrain intelligently. Cover is still a thing, after all.
Also, I feel the predator isn't really the type to offer a whole group a stand up fight. It would be working actively to separate the group, pick them off individually. It really seems to enjoy spreading terror at least as much as the hunt itself. So .. it might not be able to separate the group, cause players aren't generally that dumb, but it could use hit-and-run tactics to repeatedly wear down one character, waiting patiently for the group to run out of healing before finally going in for one kill. Then another. Then another. Repeat until victory.
That would be fairly awful to have to fight. Unless you just land a Faerie Fire.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
The party already (quite creatively) threw a faerie fire to locate it once. However, I ruled that faerie fire didn't follow it, so after it bounded away they were still in the soup.
So far, the predators tactic(s) included throwing Confusion, making at least one member of the party do random shit. Then, Mass Suggestion to make some of them think spreading out is a good idea.
Then, let whichever straggler have it with both barrels. Upon which, said straggler starts to whine that it's not fair and his second attack should have hit.
So you ... ruled that Faerie Fire doesn't work the way it works. That's ... bad. And now it's also a caster of at least 7th level? I'm sorry, but this feels to me like you want this encounter to be hard, so you're just piling random stuff in there to make it so. Faerie Fire should reveal it. If you want it to be the Predator, don't make it a wizard. It should have stealth/invisibility, crazy physical stats, a magical energy weapon, and claws.
If you didn't figure on Faerie Fire ruining stealthy enemies - you need to find a better solution than altering the way the spell works. If revealed, have it retreat.
It feels like you're unhappy your players are beating your encounter. Remember the job of the GM is to challenge, entertain and reward.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
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I'm sure this has come up before, but I can't find the exact question so I'll try again. Sorry if this turns out to be a repost.
Anyway, I'm DMing a party of very experienced players who have followed through some epic 5e adventures for over 3 years. The PCs are now Lv. 11-12. We're playing virtually through Discord.
They are traveling through the forest on their pursuit of the Macguffin. Another BBEG also wants the Macguffin. I wanted to have them deal with the Predator, sent by BBEG. The real deal. I figured I'd use stats from a Phaerimm, and just narrate the environment.
So clearly, the Predator is invisible unless it takes damage or chooses not to be. I tried to be fair by having each PC roll a perception check at the start of each round to detect movement on the part of P. Funny enough, the first time one detected movement, they all went berserk firing blindly just like the movie, with similar success. In future rounds, I informed each PC of the results of their perception check by PM. Each perceived nothing more than movement, its distance, and direction. Some chose to use that info to throw AOE spells in that direction, others to shoot.
Conflict arose when one of the PCs threw Scorching Ray at the movement she saw. The first attack roll was a Nat20, the next two not; (I had her roll damage for the first because I try to allow Nat20 to be auto-success; the other two were misses despite being good rolls.) She felt that since she had scored a hit on the first roll, she should be allowed to "adjust her fire" on the next two and still hit. I said no.
The mechanics of invisibility don't seem to address this kind of narrative. Just calling the Predator "heavily obscured" doesn't really have much narrative flavor.
What can I do better?
A solo monster like that should get legendary actions. And one of them should be to reposition. Maybe it also lets him hide before he moves, or maybe he has to use one legendary action to hide, and then another one to move later, but that would be very technical and usually bad.
Invisibility is pretty spot on. For more Predator flavoring you might consider the invisibility shorting out if it takes damage, Similar to how the real Predator camouflages sometimes do. Mechanically this might be something like the DC for spotting or hitting the Predator dropping by 5 each time it takes damage. In the instance of the Scortching ray, that might play out to let the later rolls hit. Obviously they might have better chances to determine it's presence if they're doing listening checks as well.
But you want to have them constantly on edge. Not every sound is the Predator, sometimes it's a wild boar and they unload all their ammunition into it, laugh it off a bit but then discover that an NPC's body they were keeping has been taken while they were distracted by the boar. Just to really unsettle them. The predator might even encounter other monsters as it stalks them and suddenly they happen upon the skinned carcass of an owlbear with head and spine removed.
For starters, you can obey the actual mechanics of being unseen, which means everyone attacking your "Predator" is rolling at disadvantage unless the Predator's invisibility drops.
If that ends up too powerful for what you intended, make it easier for the invisibility to drop - for example, the Predator's invisibility could drop whenever it's critically hit.
For starters, you can obey the actual mechanics of being unseen, which means everyone attacking your "Predator" is rolling at disadvantage unless the Predator's invisibility drops.
>> My point was that the "actual mechanics" of being unseen don't speak to this narrative. Referring back to the movie, it took Dutch's team half the movie to even figure out what the Predator was, much less see and target it. Attacking at disadvantage seems like a weak representation of that story. (I mean, Jesse Ventura rolled all nat-1s with the minigun? Come on.)
>>I'm trying to replicate the what-the-hell-is-this-enemy vibe the movie used. Of note: this is a party that has already survived the original Tomb of Horrors. IMHO, they need to come down a peg. Very Gygax of me.
If that ends up too powerful for what you intended, make it easier for the invisibility to drop - for example, the Predator's invisibility could drop whenever it's critically hit.
>>No, I want to make him HARDER to hit.
Also, can you share the Phaerimm stats you're using? I haven't seen any for 5e.
Also also, check out the Orthon from Monsters of the Multiverse. It's a clear take on the Predator monster, though probably too weak for your party.
Bear in mind Orthons are needlessly overpowered against Barbarians due to the remarkably poor choice rampant in MPMM of having weapons deal force damage.
Have you read the statblock of an invisible stalker? They are permanently invisible, and so without the ability to see invisible creatures, you literally can't see one, period.
Attacking at disadvantage only works once you know where the target is and even then you don't know what the target looks like.
Give an invisible stalker a higher Dexterity score/some armor/proficiency in Dex saves and you'll achieve that. If your Predator has a ranged weapon, it'll be even harder to deduce its location. If you want to lean harder into making it harder to find, upgrade its Stealth, e.g. by giving it Reliable Talent or permanent Advantage (or both).
Also, if that's what you're after, I think you're in the wrong forum - this is the forum for determining what the RAW is. There are other fora for both DM advice and Homebrew advice.
It's been a minute since I've seen Predator but I feel like Arnold doesn't get shot very many times in it, so for this one and this one alone I'm okay with the stupid force weapons.
>>>Also, if that's what you're after, I think you're in the wrong forum - this is the forum for determining what the RAW is. There are other fora for both DM advice and Homebrew advice.
You may well be right. Cross posting stat.
>>Have you read the statblock of an invisible stalker?
I have. Put a lot of thought into which statblock to use. A Stalker gives us perma-invisibility, but lacks the firepower of a phaerimm. I thought the phaerimm gave more of the Predator flavor than the IS. I've been playing it where the phaerimm uses Confusion, Mass Suggestion, and Minor illusion to break the party apart before attacking the one carrying the macGuffin.
Phaerimm are statted in Minsc and Boo's Journal of Villainy. That's WOTC canon, right?
MaB:JoV is not canon, as far as I know. I did forget all about it though, since it doesn't show up on Beyond.
I remember wanting the Phaerimm stats when I was running SKT because one of the extracurricular articles about one of the villains mentioned them and I was gonna use them.
Good advice here so far.
Any Solo creature vs any party 5th level and above should start to use Legendary actions, otherwise they get killed quickly. Legendary actions help combat that 4-7 players with actions vs a single action. Start with a base creature and beef it up. Look at other creatures with Legendary actions and adapt them.
Permanent (or semi-permanent) Invisibility should be key here. Make its suit 'Stealthy' All attack and perceptions rolls (sight/sound) have disadvantage. All of the Predator's attacks have Advantage due to the invisibility. Even outside of invisibility one might consider it blurred like the spell or Displacer Beast.
Make them take Actions to see it. One has to point out where it is (where they THINK it is) and the rest can try and attack. Or bonus action at least.
As a GM with a new monster, run it though a playtest by yourself. You have all your PC's stats. Run a few rounds of mock combat and see how it works. Kinda like playing chess vs oneself. The goal it to provide a real threat and sense of terror. Make up some trial powers and see how it works!
Remember there are Rules as Written (RAW), Rules as Intended (RAI), and Rules as Fun (RAF). There's some great RAW, RAI, and RAF here... please check in with your DM to determine how they want to adjudicate the RAW/RAI/RAF for your game.
Invisibility only goes so far. Your players should be using ready action to inflict real damage whenever they manage to spot the Predator. If it's a succesful perception check, then it would still be at disadvantage - if it's because the stealth drops, that's just an attack roll.
Also, Faerie Fire would end the encounter pretty much immediately.
But if you want it harder to hit, then higher AC, maybe Evasion, and use terrain intelligently. Cover is still a thing, after all.
Also, I feel the predator isn't really the type to offer a whole group a stand up fight. It would be working actively to separate the group, pick them off individually. It really seems to enjoy spreading terror at least as much as the hunt itself. So .. it might not be able to separate the group, cause players aren't generally that dumb, but it could use hit-and-run tactics to repeatedly wear down one character, waiting patiently for the group to run out of healing before finally going in for one kill. Then another. Then another. Repeat until victory.
That would be fairly awful to have to fight. Unless you just land a Faerie Fire.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
The party already (quite creatively) threw a faerie fire to locate it once. However, I ruled that faerie fire didn't follow it, so after it bounded away they were still in the soup.
So far, the predators tactic(s) included throwing Confusion, making at least one member of the party do random shit. Then, Mass Suggestion to make some of them think spreading out is a good idea.
Then, let whichever straggler have it with both barrels. Upon which, said straggler starts to whine that it's not fair and his second attack should have hit.
So you ... ruled that Faerie Fire doesn't work the way it works. That's ... bad. And now it's also a caster of at least 7th level? I'm sorry, but this feels to me like you want this encounter to be hard, so you're just piling random stuff in there to make it so. Faerie Fire should reveal it. If you want it to be the Predator, don't make it a wizard. It should have stealth/invisibility, crazy physical stats, a magical energy weapon, and claws.
If you didn't figure on Faerie Fire ruining stealthy enemies - you need to find a better solution than altering the way the spell works. If revealed, have it retreat.
It feels like you're unhappy your players are beating your encounter. Remember the job of the GM is to challenge, entertain and reward.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.