I'm always reading about the -5 to hit/+10 to damage aspect of GWM (and sharpshooter). I'll occasionally see something about the bonus action. The +10 damage certainly helps get the bonus action. If a build can reliably get advantage, GWM can really tack on the damage. This is especially true of crit fishers and extra attacks. Champion rides that intersection pretty well.
If we consider an 8th level fighter (low end of feats making sense unless a variant human) with Str 20 and a +1 greatsword, his attack is +9/2d6+6 (13, or 14.33 with great weapon style), his GWM attack is +4/2d6+16. Against an AC 15 target, which is typical enough at that level, the average is 2 attacks * 0.75 hit chance * 13 damage = 19.5 dpr (21.5 with great weapon style). Using GWM his average is 2 attacks * 0.5 hit chance * 23 damage = 23 dpr (24.33 with great weapon style).
That's not bad (10.5 damage in a 3 round combat, or 8.5 with great weapon style), but in a typical 3 round fight he also gets 0.3 crits (0.6 if champion), and in an even numbers fight (say, 1 ogre per PC) can be expected to get one bonus attack from dropping a foe (the fact that this may not happen in solo fights is balanced by it happening more than once in numerous group fights). Combined effect is about 1.2 bonus attacks for around +13 damage.
That's something like 20-25 damage in a 3 round combat. +5 damage once per round would only be +15.
As far as fighting feats go, we can look at the candidates:
Charger: as written, only useful when you need to use dash, so about a 50% chance per combat it doesn't do anything. A bonus attack at +5 damage is worth around 18*proc chance*hit chance, so overall something like 7 damage per combat.
Crossbow Expert: being able to use a heavy crossbow instead of a longbow is +1 damage per attack (+1.5 per round, +4.5 per combat). The other two effects are rarely relevant.
Dual Wielder: increased die type for your weapons = +1 damage per successful attack (at level 8, with the same targets noted above, with 3 attacks per round, +2.25 per round or +6.75 in 3 rounds). Fast-draw gives a bonus attack when it comes up, which is maybe every other combat, call it 3-4 per combat. Total ~11 per combat, and also +1 AC.
Great Weapon Master: see above.
Martial Adept: only about a 50% chance that you have it available, at 2 combats between rests. Minimum effect is +1d6 (1.75 per combat), but some of the effects are very strong (for example, triggering Riposte), which is something like 4 per combat. It's probably more useful to a rogue (ways to get advantage) than a fighter.
Polearm Master: offhand attacks at +9/1d4+6 is +6.4 damage per round. The bonus opportunity attack is very common, call it 50% chance per round to trigger, net +4.3 damage per round. Total about +29 per combat. It does mean you need to use a d10 weapon, but that's the price of reach.
Savage Attacker: depends on weapon and how you use it, but typically good for around +1 damage per round (3 per combat)
As far as fighting feats go, we can look at the candidates:
Charger: as written, only useful when you need to use dash, so about a 50% chance per combat it doesn't do anything. A bonus attack at +5 damage is worth around 18*proc chance*hit chance, so overall something like 7 damage per combat.
Crossbow Expert: being able to use a heavy crossbow instead of a longbow is +1 damage per attack (+1.5 per round, +4.5 per combat). The other two effects are rarely relevant.
Dual Wielder: increased die type for your weapons = +1 damage per successful attack (at level 8, with the same targets noted above, with 3 attacks per round, +2.25 per round or +6.75 in 3 rounds). Fast-draw gives a bonus attack when it comes up, which is maybe every other combat, call it 3-4 per combat. Total ~11 per combat, and also +1 AC.
Great Weapon Master: see above.
Martial Adept: only about a 50% chance that you have it available, at 2 combats between rests. Minimum effect is +1d6 (1.75 per combat), but some of the effects are very strong (for example, triggering Riposte), which is something like 4 per combat. It's probably more useful to a rogue (ways to get advantage) than a fighter.
Polearm Master: offhand attacks at +9/1d4+6 is +6.4 damage per round. The bonus opportunity attack is very common, call it 50% chance per round to trigger, net +4.3 damage per round. Total about +29 per combat. It does mean you need to use a d10 weapon, but that's the price of reach.
Savage Attacker: depends on weapon and how you use it, but typically good for around +1 damage per round (3 per combat)
Thus, putting them in order from best to worst
Polearm Master (29)
Great Weapon Master (23)
Dual Wielder (11, and defense)
Charger (7)
Martial Adept (5.75)
Crossbow Expert (5)
Savage Attacker (3)
Crossbow expert doesn't say anything about Heavy Crossbow.
Crossbow Expert
Thanks to extensive practice with the crossbow, you gain the following benefits:
You ignore the loading property of crossbows with which you are proficient.
Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn’t impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls.
When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding.
Crossbow expert doesn't say anything about Heavy Crossbow.
"You ignore the loading property of crossbows with which you are proficient'. A heavy crossbow is a crossbow, and has the loading property. Thus, a crossbow expert can use his Extra Attack feature with a heavy crossbow, a non-expert cannot.
Crossbow expert doesn't say anything about Heavy Crossbow.
"You ignore the loading property of crossbows with which you are proficient'. A heavy crossbow is a crossbow, and has the loading property. Thus, a crossbow expert can use his Extra Attack feature with a heavy crossbow, a non-expert cannot.
Assuming that you're proficient with heavy crossbow, that makes sense. The bonus action option is certainly build specific and the spacing option is completely dependent on DM style, so I can understand why you'd say those rarely come up. As an archer, you're not likely to want to be that close.
I've actually looked at that feat just for disadvantage removal clause for a theoretical EK build before, just because I wanted options for a ranged cantrip to pair with war magic. I've since learned that a spell save cantrip is the way to go for that scenario.
Assuming that you're proficient with heavy crossbow, that makes sense. The bonus action option is certainly build specific and the spacing option is completely dependent on DM style, so I can understand why you'd say those rarely come up.
If it comes up, you can always just switch to a melee weapon. It's a damage loss, but not a very large one.
Crossbow expert doesn't say anything about Heavy Crossbow.
"You ignore the loading property of crossbows with which you are proficient'. A heavy crossbow is a crossbow, and has the loading property. Thus, a crossbow expert can use his Extra Attack feature with a heavy crossbow, a non-expert cannot.
When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding.
a heavy crossbow is not a ONE HANDED weapon, nor is it a Hand Crossbow.
does heavy crossbow ignore loading? Yes.
does it ignore close range disadvantage? Yes.
do you get the 3rd bullet of the feat with a heavy crossbow? No. It is not one handed. And it is not a light crossbow.
8 pack, you're misunderstanding what Panta is saying. If you have Extra Attack from Fighter or whatever and can attack twice per attack action, Loading ordinarily prevents you from making two attacks during an attack action with a crossbow. Crossbow Expert removes Loading, allowing you to get all of the attacks you are entitled to as part of an Attack action.
He's not talking about the Bonus Action shot with a hand crossbow, that's separate.
8 pack, you're misunderstanding what Panta is saying. If you have Extra Attack from Fighter or whatever and can attack twice per attack action, Loading ordinarily prevents you from making two attacks during an attack action with a crossbow. Crossbow Expert removes Loading, allowing you to get all of the attacks you are entitled to as part of an Attack action.
He's not talking about the Bonus Action shot with a hand crossbow, that's separate.
Yes, I was only talking about the useful parts of the feat. Though I just realized that the hand crossbow attack is more useful than I thought at first, because it's not classed as an off-hand attack, you add your ability bonus to its damage, and it does not require the one-handed weapon you are using to be a light melee weapon (so you can actually start off a combat with two hand crossbows, though because this feat doesn't eliminate the hand requirement of ammunition, you'll probably need to only use one of them after the first round).
Panta, worse than that, you'll need DM permission to be able to start combat with 'one in the chamber,' because as written, you load a weapon with Ammunitionduring the attack. The only way that Dual Wielding crossbows works is if DM allows you to start combat with them preloaded (only works in opening round), or if you can optionally load them as a Free Object Interaction instead of as part of the attack +Dual Wielder:: start with 1 in 1 hand and other holstered, free interaction-load the one you're holding, free interaction- draw second crossbow, attack action- main hand shoot, drop main hand crossbow (doesn't require a free interaction, truly free to drop), bonus action- offhand load & shoot.
Dual Wielder hand crossbows is not all it's cracked up to be, unless you can get them enchanted to be Repeating.
Huh. That actually makes hand crossbows (with or without the feat) completely useless, because it means you aren't getting any benefit from the one-handed property, you still need two hands, at which point you might as well use a shortbow.
Though I'm not actually sure your reading is correct, because the ammunition property is incoherently worded (it tells you that you need to have ammunition, and it tells you how to draw ammunition, but it fails to tell you when you need to draw ammunition. In fact, it does not tell you that you need to draw ammunition to fire, you just need to have it).
"You can use a weapon that has the Ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunitionto fire from the weapon."
Read literally, whatever "have ammunition to fire" means, it is checked whenever you attempt to make a ranged attack.
Are you arguing that this should not be read literally, and instead just means "crossbows shoot bolts in general," not that you have to satisfy "have ammunition" each and every time you shoot? Or, that you can satisfy "have ammunition to fire from the weapon" by leaving it in your quiver and not loading it, or by "drawing" it but not loading it? I'm confused.
"Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of ammunition."
One bolt = one attack. Clear enough.
"Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon)."
Read literally, the ammunition is in your quiver except for during the attack, you use a free hand to draw it. So yes, a one-handed crossbow literally takes two hands to perform an attack, unless you can use a free object interaction to load it not during the attack or otherwise treat it as pre-loaded (doesn't say you can, but also doesn't say you can't, and I think most reasonable DM's would let you). I think it's worded pretty clearly that you need to do that as "part of the attack", so it's not that it's ambiguous or incoherent... it's just that it's a huge let down compared to how people think a hand crossbow is going to work, because it's actually quite action economy intensive to use a hand crossbow while holding something else, and Dual Wielder is pretty much a pre-requisite unless you want your round rotations to look very very complex.
There's still certainly a benefit to Hand Crossbows, in that there is no feat for Shortbows that lets you get Bonus Action attacks with those just by holding one in your off hand. It's just that RAW, you have to have a Free Object Interaction left to sheathe your mainhand weapon after making that attack, before you can use your Bonus Action to fire your offhand crossbow, which is a pain unless you have Dual Wielder to pull your mainhand weapon back out afterwards.
8 pack, you're misunderstanding what Panta is saying. If you have Extra Attack from Fighter or whatever and can attack twice per attack action, Loading ordinarily prevents you from making two attacks during an attack action with a crossbow. Crossbow Expert removes Loading, allowing you to get all of the attacks you are entitled to as part of an Attack action.
He's not talking about the Bonus Action shot with a hand crossbow, that's separate.
"You can use a weapon that has the Ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunitionto fire from the weapon."
Read literally, whatever "have ammunition to fire" means, it is checked whenever you attempt to make a ranged attack.
Are you arguing that this should not be read literally, and instead just means "crossbows shoot bolts in general," not that you have to satisfy "have ammunition" each and every time you shoot? Or, that you can satisfy "have ammunition to fire from the weapon" by leaving it in your quiver and not loading it, or by "drawing" it but not loading it? I'm confused.
"Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of ammunition."
One bolt = one attack. Clear enough.
"Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon)."
Read literally, the ammunition is in your quiver except for during the attack, you use a free hand to draw it. So yes, a one-handed crossbow literally takes two hands to perform an attack, unless you can use a free object interaction to load it not during the attack or otherwise treat it as pre-loaded (doesn't say you can, but also doesn't say you can't, and I think most reasonable DM's would let you). I think it's worded pretty clearly that you need to do that as "part of the attack", so it's not that it's ambiguous or incoherent... it's just that it's a huge let down compared to how people think a hand crossbow is going to work, because it's actually quite action economy intensive to use a hand crossbow while holding something else, and Dual Wielder is pretty much a pre-requisite unless you want your round rotations to look very very complex.
There's still certainly a benefit to Hand Crossbows, in that there is no feat that lets you get Bonus Action attacks with those just by holding one in your off hand. It's just that RAW, you have to have a Free Object Interaction left to sheathe your mainhand weapon after making that attack, before you can use your Bonus Action to fire your offhand crossbow, which is a pain unless you have Dual Wielder to pull your mainhand weapon back out afterwards.
Probably the best way to take advantage of the third bullet is to use a single hand crossbow. That leaves a hand available for the loading during the attack and allows you to always have access to the bonus action attack. However, unless that also allows you to utilize a shield, you're a small race (that gains disadvantage with heavy weapons), or you're also a caster of some sort, the benefit is minimized with more attacks. I'll add a +3 dex bonus for 1 attack, a +4 for 2 attacks, and a +5 for 3 and 4 attacks to give a general idea.
1 attack gives 2d6 (1d6 normal +1d6 bonus action, 7)+ 6 [13 total] average damage for hand crossbow (light, martial) with bonus action vs 1d10 (5.5) + 3 [8.5] damage for heavy crossbow, or 1d8 (4.5) + 3 [7.5] damage for longbow (heavy, martial) or a light crossbow (martial). That's without taking into account range differentials.
2 attacks: 3d6 (10.5) +12 [22.5] vs 2d10 (11) + 8 [19] vs 2d8 (9) + 8 [17].
3 attacks: 4d6 (14) + 20 [34] vs 3d10 (16.5) + 15 [31.5] vs 3d8 (13.5) +15 [28.5].
4 attacks: 5d6(17.5) + 25 [42.5] vs 4d10 (22) + 20 [42] vs 4d8 (18) + 20 [38]
Hunter's mark and hex will still favor the hand crossbow with the bonus attack since they could do it as well. They'd lose damage on the turns that they had to move the spell, though. If the character has the ability to consistently use a bonus action that gave better than 1d6 + dex modifier they'd pull ahead with the heavier weapons. Having the larger range will also help the heavier weapons over time, since they'll potentially land more attacks initially.
The light crossbow (and the shortbow) do have the benefit of being simple weapons and therefore can be used with proficiency bonuses for everyone except druids and, in the case of shortbows, sorcerers, and wizards. Bards and rogues do have hand crossbows added. This means that only clerics, monks, and warlocks are added to that list.
Edit: How did we get on that discussion from Charger? Oh yes, a list of bad feats.
So I've been vexing over this feat, because like all of you I think this feat has such a strong concept, and doesn't deserve to be abandoned in such a state.
What if Charger simply turns any Dash in which the last 10ft are straight at/up to and opponent, into an optional Attack or shove? And if that's your action (as opposed to a Rogue's bonus action), it produces a bonus action in which you can roll another attack? -When a football player is tackling an opponent, it's not a complicated technique. When executed you simply run, but into an opponent with your arms are open. You don't need to roll to see if you run in a straight line, so why necessarily treat it as a separate act? You took a feat for this, so now if your Dash fits the criteria, you now roll for it to be an attack or shove. -If you're a polearm charger, you literally run at an opponent and make sure to stick the pointed end into the guy. That's less than a tackle in terms of complexity.
Thus, if you Dash as a bonus act, you can take your action. If you Dash as your Action, you get a bonus action in which to attack. That way we haven't even entered the territory of bonuses. We'll have simply made Dashing into an optional attack maneuver. I think this is the proper foundation upon which to build this feat, as it's job is to: 1. Bridge a great distance gap in a turn, 2. Take up an entire turn, and... 3. Make sure it isn't a worthless thing to have done.
If you have Dash as a bonus move, then this feat takes up less than a full turn, so your bonus Dash isn't irrelevant either, and gives you access to an extra "attack or shove."
Another way we could re-balance this is to combine the +5 damage, and the shove. So in the vanilla Charger, you roll to attack with the +5 bonus, or you shove someone 10 whole feet. That doesn't do any damage by itself? 10+ft of a grown man sprinting into you doesn't knock you prone? How about in the shove we roll 1d4 or 1d6 since the target probably flew through the air before hitting the ground, and in all actuality banged their head? Another option could be: after a successful shove is rolled, the target rolls an additional Dex save to see if they're knocked prone for a turn.
"When you use your action to Dash, you can use a bonus action to make one melee weapon attack or to shove a creature.
If you move at least 10 feet in a straight line immediately before taking this bonus action, you either gain a +5 bonus to the attack's damage roll and you can automatically shove the creature 5 feet away from you as part of the attack (if you chose to make a melee attack and hit) or you gain advantage on your roll to shove the creature and you push the target up to 10 feet away from you (if you chose to shove and you succeed)."
It makes it comparable to Shield Master's ability to attack and then shove as a bonus action, but while Shield Master lets you keep all your attacks, Charger would let you either shove an extra 5 feet with advantage or do +5 damage and auto-succeed on the shove. The latter is justifiable in comparison to Shield Master, as Shield Master has other benefits too. In comparison to characters without the feat, this +5 damage is comparable to the amount most could usually do with their bonus action, or with an extra attack, so all the feat is doing is giving you a 5 foot shove which is similar to one of the Swords Bard features but still significantly weaker in every way, and more situational (but, yes, unlimited, which the Bard feature is not, but I think it's still fair). And I think the advantage on the shove check is very important, as it would be far too disappointing if you get to the rare opportunity for the player to use their feat, they charge, screaming, 60 feet towards their foe and then fail and bounce off of them in a huge anticlimax. They'll definitely feel that they wasted a feat.
Finally, I think most characters would have to give up something meaningful to use this feat, as most melee builds would either otherwise have Extra Attack or be using their Bonus Action, so I don't think this would become a mandatory feat.
If we consider an 8th level fighter (low end of feats making sense unless a variant human) with Str 20 and a +1 greatsword, his attack is +9/2d6+6 (13, or 14.33 with great weapon style), his GWM attack is +4/2d6+16. Against an AC 15 target, which is typical enough at that level, the average is 2 attacks * 0.75 hit chance * 13 damage = 19.5 dpr (21.5 with great weapon style). Using GWM his average is 2 attacks * 0.5 hit chance * 23 damage = 23 dpr (24.33 with great weapon style).
That's not bad (10.5 damage in a 3 round combat, or 8.5 with great weapon style), but in a typical 3 round fight he also gets 0.3 crits (0.6 if champion), and in an even numbers fight (say, 1 ogre per PC) can be expected to get one bonus attack from dropping a foe (the fact that this may not happen in solo fights is balanced by it happening more than once in numerous group fights). Combined effect is about 1.2 bonus attacks for around +13 damage.
That's something like 20-25 damage in a 3 round combat. +5 damage once per round would only be +15.
As far as fighting feats go, we can look at the candidates:
Thus, putting them in order from best to worst
Crossbow expert doesn't say anything about Heavy Crossbow.
Crossbow Expert
Thanks to extensive practice with the crossbow, you gain the following benefits:
You ignore the loading property of crossbows with which you are proficient.
Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn’t impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls.
When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding.
"You ignore the loading property of crossbows with which you are proficient'. A heavy crossbow is a crossbow, and has the loading property. Thus, a crossbow expert can use his Extra Attack feature with a heavy crossbow, a non-expert cannot.
Assuming that you're proficient with heavy crossbow, that makes sense. The bonus action option is certainly build specific and the spacing option is completely dependent on DM style, so I can understand why you'd say those rarely come up. As an archer, you're not likely to want to be that close.
I've actually looked at that feat just for disadvantage removal clause for a theoretical EK build before, just because I wanted options for a ranged cantrip to pair with war magic. I've since learned that a spell save cantrip is the way to go for that scenario.
If it comes up, you can always just switch to a melee weapon. It's a damage loss, but not a very large one.
When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding.
a heavy crossbow is not a ONE HANDED weapon, nor is it a Hand Crossbow.
does heavy crossbow ignore loading? Yes.
does it ignore close range disadvantage? Yes.
do you get the 3rd bullet of the feat with a heavy crossbow? No. It is not one handed. And it is not a light crossbow.
Blank
8 pack, you're misunderstanding what Panta is saying. If you have Extra Attack from Fighter or whatever and can attack twice per attack action, Loading ordinarily prevents you from making two attacks during an attack action with a crossbow. Crossbow Expert removes Loading, allowing you to get all of the attacks you are entitled to as part of an Attack action.
He's not talking about the Bonus Action shot with a hand crossbow, that's separate.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Yes, I was only talking about the useful parts of the feat. Though I just realized that the hand crossbow attack is more useful than I thought at first, because it's not classed as an off-hand attack, you add your ability bonus to its damage, and it does not require the one-handed weapon you are using to be a light melee weapon (so you can actually start off a combat with two hand crossbows, though because this feat doesn't eliminate the hand requirement of ammunition, you'll probably need to only use one of them after the first round).
Panta, worse than that, you'll need DM permission to be able to start combat with 'one in the chamber,' because as written, you load a weapon with Ammunition during the attack. The only way that Dual Wielding crossbows works is if DM allows you to start combat with them preloaded (only works in opening round), or if you can optionally load them as a Free Object Interaction instead of as part of the attack +Dual Wielder:: start with 1 in 1 hand and other holstered, free interaction-load the one you're holding, free interaction- draw second crossbow, attack action- main hand shoot, drop main hand crossbow (doesn't require a free interaction, truly free to drop), bonus action- offhand load & shoot.
Dual Wielder hand crossbows is not all it's cracked up to be, unless you can get them enchanted to be Repeating.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Huh. That actually makes hand crossbows (with or without the feat) completely useless, because it means you aren't getting any benefit from the one-handed property, you still need two hands, at which point you might as well use a shortbow.
Though I'm not actually sure your reading is correct, because the ammunition property is incoherently worded (it tells you that you need to have ammunition, and it tells you how to draw ammunition, but it fails to tell you when you need to draw ammunition. In fact, it does not tell you that you need to draw ammunition to fire, you just need to have it).
There's still certainly a benefit to Hand Crossbows, in that there is no feat for Shortbows that lets you get Bonus Action attacks with those just by holding one in your off hand. It's just that RAW, you have to have a Free Object Interaction left to sheathe your mainhand weapon after making that attack, before you can use your Bonus Action to fire your offhand crossbow, which is a pain unless you have Dual Wielder to pull your mainhand weapon back out afterwards.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Yes I was misunderstanding him then. Carry on
Blank
Probably the best way to take advantage of the third bullet is to use a single hand crossbow. That leaves a hand available for the loading during the attack and allows you to always have access to the bonus action attack. However, unless that also allows you to utilize a shield, you're a small race (that gains disadvantage with heavy weapons), or you're also a caster of some sort, the benefit is minimized with more attacks. I'll add a +3 dex bonus for 1 attack, a +4 for 2 attacks, and a +5 for 3 and 4 attacks to give a general idea.
1 attack gives 2d6 (1d6 normal +1d6 bonus action, 7)+ 6 [13 total] average damage for hand crossbow (light, martial) with bonus action vs 1d10 (5.5) + 3 [8.5] damage for heavy crossbow, or 1d8 (4.5) + 3 [7.5] damage for longbow (heavy, martial) or a light crossbow (martial). That's without taking into account range differentials.
2 attacks: 3d6 (10.5) +12 [22.5] vs 2d10 (11) + 8 [19] vs 2d8 (9) + 8 [17].
3 attacks: 4d6 (14) + 20 [34] vs 3d10 (16.5) + 15 [31.5] vs 3d8 (13.5) +15 [28.5].
4 attacks: 5d6(17.5) + 25 [42.5] vs 4d10 (22) + 20 [42] vs 4d8 (18) + 20 [38]
Hunter's mark and hex will still favor the hand crossbow with the bonus attack since they could do it as well. They'd lose damage on the turns that they had to move the spell, though. If the character has the ability to consistently use a bonus action that gave better than 1d6 + dex modifier they'd pull ahead with the heavier weapons. Having the larger range will also help the heavier weapons over time, since they'll potentially land more attacks initially.
The light crossbow (and the shortbow) do have the benefit of being simple weapons and therefore can be used with proficiency bonuses for everyone except druids and, in the case of shortbows, sorcerers, and wizards. Bards and rogues do have hand crossbows added. This means that only clerics, monks, and warlocks are added to that list.
Edit: How did we get on that discussion from Charger? Oh yes, a list of bad feats.
Also hand crossbow 2d6 attack clarified.
People.
Charger thread, not XbowXpert thread.
There's been plenty of those, this one doesn't need to be another one.
Please do not contact or message me.
I don't understand why a hand crossbow is 2d6? Edit for clarity plz.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Yeah, I realized that after I'd already posted. That's why I added the part about "how'd we get here".
So I've been vexing over this feat, because like all of you I think this feat has such a strong concept, and doesn't deserve to be abandoned in such a state.
What if Charger simply turns any Dash in which the last 10ft are straight at/up to and opponent, into an optional Attack or shove? And if that's your action (as opposed to a Rogue's bonus action), it produces a bonus action in which you can roll another attack?
-When a football player is tackling an opponent, it's not a complicated technique. When executed you simply run, but into an opponent with your arms are open. You don't need to roll to see if you run in a straight line, so why necessarily treat it as a separate act? You took a feat for this, so now if your Dash fits the criteria, you now roll for it to be an attack or shove.
-If you're a polearm charger, you literally run at an opponent and make sure to stick the pointed end into the guy. That's less than a tackle in terms of complexity.
Thus, if you Dash as a bonus act, you can take your action. If you Dash as your Action, you get a bonus action in which to attack. That way we haven't even entered the territory of bonuses. We'll have simply made Dashing into an optional attack maneuver. I think this is the proper foundation upon which to build this feat, as it's job is to:
1. Bridge a great distance gap in a turn,
2. Take up an entire turn, and...
3. Make sure it isn't a worthless thing to have done.
If you have Dash as a bonus move, then this feat takes up less than a full turn, so your bonus Dash isn't irrelevant either, and gives you access to an extra "attack or shove."
Another way we could re-balance this is to combine the +5 damage, and the shove. So in the vanilla Charger, you roll to attack with the +5 bonus, or you shove someone 10 whole feet. That doesn't do any damage by itself? 10+ft of a grown man sprinting into you doesn't knock you prone? How about in the shove we roll 1d4 or 1d6 since the target probably flew through the air before hitting the ground, and in all actuality banged their head? Another option could be: after a successful shove is rolled, the target rolls an additional Dex save to see if they're knocked prone for a turn.
The feat isn't useless, but it is extremely situational.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
My wording would be:
"When you use your action to Dash, you can use a bonus action to make one melee weapon attack or to shove a creature.
If you move at least 10 feet in a straight line immediately before taking this bonus action, you either gain a +5 bonus to the attack's damage roll and you can automatically shove the creature 5 feet away from you as part of the attack (if you chose to make a melee attack and hit) or you gain advantage on your roll to shove the creature and you push the target up to 10 feet away from you (if you chose to shove and you succeed)."
It makes it comparable to Shield Master's ability to attack and then shove as a bonus action, but while Shield Master lets you keep all your attacks, Charger would let you either shove an extra 5 feet with advantage or do +5 damage and auto-succeed on the shove. The latter is justifiable in comparison to Shield Master, as Shield Master has other benefits too. In comparison to characters without the feat, this +5 damage is comparable to the amount most could usually do with their bonus action, or with an extra attack, so all the feat is doing is giving you a 5 foot shove which is similar to one of the Swords Bard features but still significantly weaker in every way, and more situational (but, yes, unlimited, which the Bard feature is not, but I think it's still fair). And I think the advantage on the shove check is very important, as it would be far too disappointing if you get to the rare opportunity for the player to use their feat, they charge, screaming, 60 feet towards their foe and then fail and bounce off of them in a huge anticlimax. They'll definitely feel that they wasted a feat.
Finally, I think most characters would have to give up something meaningful to use this feat, as most melee builds would either otherwise have Extra Attack or be using their Bonus Action, so I don't think this would become a mandatory feat.