*edit* or any melee sneak attack weapon that I can think of.
You're right. I was mixing the requirements for GWM and Great Weapon Fighting Style (which only requires two handed or versatile, not heavy). Granted GWM does still work with all melee weapons on the first bullet (crit or kill activated bonus action) but not the power attack.
There are still things that would be better than Charger on a frequent basis, the GWM bonus action among them, depending on playstyle. Charger has become relegated to a humanoid bowling ball playstyle feat with the influx of feats from Tasha's, further cementing it's already niche market status.
I think your version of the feat is in no way OP, Yurei1453. Even though Chicken_Champ argue that no feat add to damage "without a cost", I beg to differ with him... Crossbow Expert gives a bonus attack without any cost at all (in addition to other useful bonuses), and adding an attack is pretty much the same as adding damage on a single attack in my book... And to be able to benefit consistently of the bonus damage, it require investing in a second feat (wich is a really big deal in this edition) or multiclass (for which you need to meet the stats requirement, wich is not always ideal and bar you from your capstone ability and delay your main class progression), or else suffer AoO on most of the rounds except the first IF you beat your opponent AC.
Granted, multiclassing as a rogue if you are a Dex based fighter is pretty easy and probably worth it all the way... But that could be "fixed" by limiting the damage bonus to strength-based melee attack... After all building momentum to strengthen an attack is way more realistic if your style of combat is not made of flourish and precise strike. That way it become really useful only for strength based attackers, who have a way harder time multiclassing to a class granting a way to disengage easily...
I know this is a dumb way to play but if you are human level 4 barbarian you could take the gwf for your human feat and charger while taking the eagle totem. When you dash in and take your attack with advantage you now deal a minimum of 21 damage and can get back out because eagle barbarian says that opportunity attacks would have disadvantage against you. The logic behind it is that 10 (gwf)+5 (charger) + 3 (str) +2 (rage)+ 1 (min roll)
I know this is a dumb way to play but if you are human level 4 barbarian you could take the gwf for your human feat and charger while taking the eagle totem. When you dash in and take your attack with advantage you now deal a minimum of 21 damage and can get back out because eagle barbarian says that opportunity attacks would have disadvantage against you. The logic behind it is that 10 (gwf)+5 (charger) + 3 (str) +2 (rage)+ 1 (min roll)
I think you mean GWM, which is a feat. GWF is a fighting style - the worst one in the game, and not worth a feat (you can take a style with the Fighting Initiate feat).
You would only have a +1 to hit modifier. Even with advantage from Reckless Attack (which would make avoiding the OA when you leave less than a sure thing), you’d miss that attack more often than land it. Not wise.
I think you mean GWM, which is a feat. GWF is a fighting style - the worst one in the game, and not worth a feat (you can take a style with the Fighting Initiate feat).
GWF is... not great, but it's better than a number of feats (not that this is hard, a significant number of feats are terrible), arguably better than Protection fighting style, and actually better than TWF in tier 3-4.
I think Charger fits perfectly on rogues. They don’t lose out on Extra Attack anyways, and they get +5 flat damage bonus. Instead of Bonus Action Dash and Action Attack, they can Action Dash and Bonus Action Attack. Throw in Mobile Feat or Fancy Footwork Class Feature and you’ll be able to reliably deliver that damage every turn.
I think you mean GWM, which is a feat. GWF is a fighting style - the worst one in the game, and not worth a feat (you can take a style with the Fighting Initiate feat).
GWF is... not great, but it's better than a number of feats (not that this is hard, a significant number of feats are terrible), arguably better than Protection fighting style, and actually better than TWF in tier 3-4.
These are all exclusive though. GWF works well for people with two-handed weapons (which negate the use of Protection or TWF) and just want to eek out a bit more damage. Protection is amazing for a Fighter with no Reaction economy and not useful at all when wielding two weapons or a two handed weapon. TWF is amazing for a Fighter with no Bonus Action economy.
Regardless of how individually potent they are, rounding out your action economy is the single best thing you can do with your character.
Yurei’s modified charger definitely makes it more viable, however arguments against a “free” +5 is valid, particularly at early levels in my mind. What do y’all think of tying bonus dmg to proficiency bonus, rather than the flat +5?
Scaling damage bonuses by tier would be great as a general design philosophy, one less misc. number you need to keep track of instead of referencing the top of your sheet! Using that for Dueling, Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master, Charger, etc... all great stuff.
But absent other changes, it would make Charger weaker than it is currently until T4, so you'd need to rewrite more than just that for it to be a desirable update.
Scaling damage bonuses by tier would be great as a general design philosophy, one less misc. number you need to keep track of instead of referencing the top of your sheet! Using that for Dueling, Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master, Charger, etc... all great stuff.
But absent other changes, it would make Charger weaker than it is currently until T4, so you'd need to rewrite more than just that for it to be a desirable update.
It would be fun if movement could generate damage in general.
Like, a Paladin with a lance hitting someone from the back of a half ton flying pegasus soaring past should have more oomf to it than if he were standing on the ground. Or a monk who runs up a wall 20 feet before dropping onto an enemy for a meteoric axe kick.
I do think that 3.5 (maybe even 4E?) had a general concept of a "Charge", in the same way that 5E has general concepts for Grapple and Shove. Agreed, sticking that special interaction behind a feat cost makes it unlikely that most players will ever attempt such a maneuver in their entire career, which is a shame.
I do think that 3.5 (maybe even 4E?) had a general concept of a "Charge", in the same way that 5E has general concepts for Grapple and Shove. Agreed, sticking that special interaction behind a feat cost makes it unlikely that most players will ever attempt such a maneuver in their entire career, which is a shame.
In 3/3.5e, Charging was a double move with restrictions (straight line, no obstacles or difficult terrain, minimum distance 10'), and gave +2 to hit, -2 defense, and (like all movement beyond 5') did not allow you to use multiple attacks unless another feature allowed them.
In 4e, Charging was a standard action that allowed you to move your speed (straight line, minimum distance 10', but could cross difficult terrain), and gave +1 to hit but forbade anything other than basic attacks, and ended your turn (so you could not use a minor action after charging).
In both editions it was a situationally useful tactic, but not something you would expect to do every round unless you're chasing down a kiting ranged attacker.
So I'm very new to all this but I found this book or module called "beyond damage dice" and one of the things that caught my eye was that lance weapons gain a property where moving 20ft in a straight line immediately before attacking inflicts additional 1d12 damage and enemy must make a saving throw lest it falls prone.
After reading that, I went to look at feats and found charger, which sounded amazing, so I googled for it and found this thread..
But, I still think that charger in combination with the lance special would be really good, You get 60 feet of movement + lance reach, you can potentially knock the enemy down and then build enough distance to charge again next turn, so you deal the charger damage and lance bonus damage somewhat consistently and also avoid AoOs pretty succesfully (or you can always pick up mobile). So how does that sound? does it make the feat any better or is it still unsalvageable?
So I'm very new to all this but I found this book or module called "beyond damage dice" and one of the things that caught my eye was that lance weapons gain a property where moving 20ft in a straight line immediately before attacking inflicts additional 1d12 damage and enemy must make a saving throw lest it falls prone.
After reading that, I went to look at feats and found charger, which sounded amazing, so I googled for it and found this thread..
But, I still think that charger in combination with the lance special would be really good, You get 60 feet of movement + lance reach, you can potentially knock the enemy down and then build enough distance to charge again next turn, so you deal the charger damage and lance bonus damage somewhat consistently and also avoid AoOs pretty succesfully (or you can always pick up mobile). So how does that sound? does it make the feat any better or is it still unsalvageable?
It still leaves the Charger feat as a one-trick pony (for example, you can now use it only with lances - which aren't common weapons) and unless you're pinballing back and forth (which is a waste of an action if you have multiple attacks and are already in combat distance) you really just aren't getting enough benefit to be worth spending on the feat. Plus, if you're using unofficial content, why not use unofficial content that actually fixes the feat?
So I'm very new to all this but I found this book or module called "beyond damage dice" and one of the things that caught my eye was that lance weapons gain a property where moving 20ft in a straight line immediately before attacking inflicts additional 1d12 damage and enemy must make a saving throw lest it falls prone.
After reading that, I went to look at feats and found charger, which sounded amazing, so I googled for it and found this thread..
But, I still think that charger in combination with the lance special would be really good, You get 60 feet of movement + lance reach, you can potentially knock the enemy down and then build enough distance to charge again next turn, so you deal the charger damage and lance bonus damage somewhat consistently and also avoid AoOs pretty succesfully (or you can always pick up mobile). So how does that sound? does it make the feat any better or is it still unsalvageable?
It still leaves the Charger feat as a one-trick pony (for example, you can now use it only with lances - which aren't common weapons) and unless you're pinballing back and forth (which is a waste of an action if you have multiple attacks and are already in combat distance) you really just aren't getting enough benefit to be worth spending on the feat. Plus, if you're using unofficial content, why not use unofficial content that actually fixes the feat?
I'm fine with it being a one trick since it sounds like a really fun gimmick I wanna try and the idea of pinballing is ridiculous enough to warrant taking suboptimal feats. That said I wasn't really aware that the thing is unofficial content, I thought it's like one of those big books (Tashas' cauldron of everything etc), but yeah, at that point it's worth looking into improving the feat.
The one change I really liked is combining the +5 damage and 10 feet push back so it's not one or the other but instead they both take place every time. That way it would be a lot safer to move around without suffering AoOs so one could theoretically forgo mobile trait.
another variant would be to increase dmg by +1 for every 10 feet of movement, maybe capping it at +10 total considering all the crazy stuff I've seen when it comes to mobility stacking. That way your single hitd are beginning to hit really hard. You would still probably have to multiclass away from fighter because otherwise you really are wasting extra attacks.
I've discovered that Swashbuckler rogue with the charger feat is actually really fun and useful. Since Charger basically just switches whether you're using your bonus or action to attack/dash, and swashbuckler gives you the ability to leave melee without opportunity attacks. My Centuar has been doing drive-bys at enemies.
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you can't GWM with double-bladed scimitar.
*edit* or any melee sneak attack weapon that I can think of.
You're right. I was mixing the requirements for GWM and Great Weapon Fighting Style (which only requires two handed or versatile, not heavy). Granted GWM does still work with all melee weapons on the first bullet (crit or kill activated bonus action) but not the power attack.
There are still things that would be better than Charger on a frequent basis, the GWM bonus action among them, depending on playstyle. Charger has become relegated to a humanoid bowling ball playstyle feat with the influx of feats from Tasha's, further cementing it's already niche market status.
I think your version of the feat is in no way OP, Yurei1453. Even though Chicken_Champ argue that no feat add to damage "without a cost", I beg to differ with him... Crossbow Expert gives a bonus attack without any cost at all (in addition to other useful bonuses), and adding an attack is pretty much the same as adding damage on a single attack in my book... And to be able to benefit consistently of the bonus damage, it require investing in a second feat (wich is a really big deal in this edition) or multiclass (for which you need to meet the stats requirement, wich is not always ideal and bar you from your capstone ability and delay your main class progression), or else suffer AoO on most of the rounds except the first IF you beat your opponent AC.
Granted, multiclassing as a rogue if you are a Dex based fighter is pretty easy and probably worth it all the way... But that could be "fixed" by limiting the damage bonus to strength-based melee attack... After all building momentum to strengthen an attack is way more realistic if your style of combat is not made of flourish and precise strike. That way it become really useful only for strength based attackers, who have a way harder time multiclassing to a class granting a way to disengage easily...
And lest we forget: investing an ASI in a feat is always a cost.
I know this is a dumb way to play but if you are human level 4 barbarian you could take the gwf for your human feat and charger while taking the eagle totem. When you dash in and take your attack with advantage you now deal a minimum of 21 damage and can get back out because eagle barbarian says that opportunity attacks would have disadvantage against you. The logic behind it is that 10 (gwf)+5 (charger) + 3 (str) +2 (rage)+ 1 (min roll)
I think you mean GWM, which is a feat. GWF is a fighting style - the worst one in the game, and not worth a feat (you can take a style with the Fighting Initiate feat).
You would only have a +1 to hit modifier. Even with advantage from Reckless Attack (which would make avoiding the OA when you leave less than a sure thing), you’d miss that attack more often than land it. Not wise.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
GWF is... not great, but it's better than a number of feats (not that this is hard, a significant number of feats are terrible), arguably better than Protection fighting style, and actually better than TWF in tier 3-4.
I think Charger fits perfectly on rogues. They don’t lose out on Extra Attack anyways, and they get +5 flat damage bonus. Instead of Bonus Action Dash and Action Attack, they can Action Dash and Bonus Action Attack. Throw in Mobile Feat or Fancy Footwork Class Feature and you’ll be able to reliably deliver that damage every turn.
These are all exclusive though. GWF works well for people with two-handed weapons (which negate the use of Protection or TWF) and just want to eek out a bit more damage. Protection is amazing for a Fighter with no Reaction economy and not useful at all when wielding two weapons or a two handed weapon. TWF is amazing for a Fighter with no Bonus Action economy.
Regardless of how individually potent they are, rounding out your action economy is the single best thing you can do with your character.
Yurei’s modified charger definitely makes it more viable, however arguments against a “free” +5 is valid, particularly at early levels in my mind. What do y’all think of tying bonus dmg to proficiency bonus, rather than the flat +5?
Scaling damage bonuses by tier would be great as a general design philosophy, one less misc. number you need to keep track of instead of referencing the top of your sheet! Using that for Dueling, Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master, Charger, etc... all great stuff.
But absent other changes, it would make Charger weaker than it is currently until T4, so you'd need to rewrite more than just that for it to be a desirable update.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
It would be fun if movement could generate damage in general.
Like, a Paladin with a lance hitting someone from the back of a half ton flying pegasus soaring past should have more oomf to it than if he were standing on the ground. Or a monk who runs up a wall 20 feet before dropping onto an enemy for a meteoric axe kick.
I do think that 3.5 (maybe even 4E?) had a general concept of a "Charge", in the same way that 5E has general concepts for Grapple and Shove. Agreed, sticking that special interaction behind a feat cost makes it unlikely that most players will ever attempt such a maneuver in their entire career, which is a shame.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
In 3/3.5e, Charging was a double move with restrictions (straight line, no obstacles or difficult terrain, minimum distance 10'), and gave +2 to hit, -2 defense, and (like all movement beyond 5') did not allow you to use multiple attacks unless another feature allowed them.
In 4e, Charging was a standard action that allowed you to move your speed (straight line, minimum distance 10', but could cross difficult terrain), and gave +1 to hit but forbade anything other than basic attacks, and ended your turn (so you could not use a minor action after charging).
In both editions it was a situationally useful tactic, but not something you would expect to do every round unless you're chasing down a kiting ranged attacker.
So I'm very new to all this but I found this book or module called "beyond damage dice" and one of the things that caught my eye was that lance weapons gain a property where moving 20ft in a straight line immediately before attacking inflicts additional 1d12 damage and enemy must make a saving throw lest it falls prone.
After reading that, I went to look at feats and found charger, which sounded amazing, so I googled for it and found this thread..
But, I still think that charger in combination with the lance special would be really good, You get 60 feet of movement + lance reach, you can potentially knock the enemy down and then build enough distance to charge again next turn, so you deal the charger damage and lance bonus damage somewhat consistently and also avoid AoOs pretty succesfully (or you can always pick up mobile). So how does that sound? does it make the feat any better or is it still unsalvageable?
It still leaves the Charger feat as a one-trick pony (for example, you can now use it only with lances - which aren't common weapons) and unless you're pinballing back and forth (which is a waste of an action if you have multiple attacks and are already in combat distance) you really just aren't getting enough benefit to be worth spending on the feat. Plus, if you're using unofficial content, why not use unofficial content that actually fixes the feat?
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
I'm fine with it being a one trick since it sounds like a really fun gimmick I wanna try and the idea of pinballing is ridiculous enough to warrant taking suboptimal feats. That said I wasn't really aware that the thing is unofficial content, I thought it's like one of those big books (Tashas' cauldron of everything etc), but yeah, at that point it's worth looking into improving the feat.
The one change I really liked is combining the +5 damage and 10 feet push back so it's not one or the other but instead they both take place every time. That way it would be a lot safer to move around without suffering AoOs so one could theoretically forgo mobile trait.
another variant would be to increase dmg by +1 for every 10 feet of movement, maybe capping it at +10 total considering all the crazy stuff I've seen when it comes to mobility stacking. That way your single hitd are beginning to hit really hard. You would still probably have to multiclass away from fighter because otherwise you really are wasting extra attacks.
I've discovered that Swashbuckler rogue with the charger feat is actually really fun and useful. Since Charger basically just switches whether you're using your bonus or action to attack/dash, and swashbuckler gives you the ability to leave melee without opportunity attacks. My Centuar has been doing drive-bys at enemies.