The question: Can party member(s) enter the Genie Vessel by the use of bag of holding or portable hole prior to obtaining the 10th Genie Warlock level feature: Sanctuary Vessel?
Background info: Bottle Respite feature obtained at Warlock Level 1 allows the user to use an action to "magically vanish and enter your vessel, which remains in the space you left".
The Assumptions: No clear description on how items enter the genie vessel but I'm assuming that items worn and held by the genie warlock can enter the vessel. Bag of holding and other similar items won't trigger the implosion effect while within the Genie Vessel. <- key description used being "similar item". A genie's vessel isn't a similar item when comparing description text as it specifically lacks "the placing the genie vessel into a bag of holding" clause.
The turn by turn play: Genie warlock have a player enter into a bag of holding/portable hole. Genie warlock holds the bag of holding/portable hole Genie warlock enters the genie vessel Party member pops out of the portable hole/genie vessel
By RAW I can see a case for a DM to say yes but by RAI I'm feeling it's a no. Thoughts?
There are a lot of different ways a DM could go about this within the RAW. It certainly wouldn't be RAI for the warlock to get its level 10 feature early by exploiting an uncommon item.
There isn't a specifically correct way of handling it though, completely up to DM.
The genie's vessel is an Object whose interior is an "extradimensional space", this it would be considered an item for the bag of holding's "similar item" clause.
As a DM I might be generous and allow the warlock to not immediately go poof if they're carrying such a bag - and reserve the poof for if they try to open the bag within the vessel.
The genie's vessel is an Object whose interior is an "extradimensional space", this it would be considered an item for the bag of holding's "similar item" clause.
I gotta agree with that. "Similar item" is a "DM discretion" phrase, though, so I guess a DM might rule the Genie's Vessel doesn't count.
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Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
I wouldn't have the PH/Bag go boom, because the vessel rules doesn't say it does, and that's my rule of thumb for what a similar item is. (The 'similar item' is needed because there can always be more items added, so you can't have an exhaustive list.)
However, this doesn't fully replace the 10th level feature, as it doesn't give the rest bonuses, and it can't be done spontaneously.
That said, "you don't have the feature that lets you have a house party in your vessel, so everyone else is immediately ejected" is a perfectly reasonable ruling.
I wouldn't have the PH/Bag go boom, because the vessel rules doesn't say it does, and that's my rule of thumb for what a similar item is. (The 'similar item' is needed because there can always be more items added, so you can't have an exhaustive list.)
But the bag of holding DOES have the "similar item" description - so when the bag of holding is placed inside the vessel, the DM could decide that the "similar item" clause applies.
I wouldn't have the PH/Bag go boom, because the vessel rules doesn't say it does, and that's my rule of thumb for what a similar item is. (The 'similar item' is needed because there can always be more items added, so you can't have an exhaustive list.)
But the bag of holding DOES have the "similar item" description - so when the bag of holding is placed inside the vessel, the DM could decide that the "similar item" clause applies.
My definition of a similar item is one with that clause. It's the only clear approach. Any other one leads to surprise booms.
It's not necessarily an item I mean there's an item involved but it's not a classic magic item it's a class feature and I argue both items need the clause in order for that effect to be relevant otherwise it's unfair to the players.
Warlock - Genie - Bottle Respite: "The interior of the vessel is an extradimensional space" Bag of holding: "Placing a bag of holding inside an extradimensional space created by a handy haversack, portable hole, or similar item -"
The Genie bottle is described as an "extradimensional space" and the bag of holding notes that the destruction and gate opening occurs when the bag enters an "extradimensional space"
However, the bag goes on to specify "an extradimensional space created by -" before listing several items which gives some specificity to it. The second "however" comes when we see it list "or similar item". The lack of the same rule in the Genie Bottle suggests RAW that the same would not occur if the bottle was put inside the bag however, as the specifics of the rule on the bag are if IT (the bag) is put into an extradimensional space and there is no general rule of putting extra dimensional spaces inside each other.
That last note gives some credit to the idea that without the same clause an item would not constitute a "similar item". But with the specific of an extradimensional space and the note of the vessel specifically being an extradimensional space I think this falls well within most interpretations of RAW to say that the Genie Bottle is a "Similar item" and placing the bag inside would cause the rule on destruction and gateway to occur.
Ruling that putting the bag inside the Genie Bottle solves 2 problems which is why I think it's a good ruling: 1. It rules out this exact exploit of putting more creatures than the warlock into the Genie Bottle before Level 10. 2. It reduces the minor exploit of using the Genie bottle for carrying all the party's equipment since the Warlock could only take in or retrieve as much as they can carry for each entry, rather than as much as can be fit in however many bags of holding, portable holes, handy haversacks, etc.
I wouldn't have the PH/Bag go boom, because the vessel rules doesn't say it does, and that's my rule of thumb for what a similar item is. (The 'similar item' is needed because there can always be more items added, so you can't have an exhaustive list.)
But the bag of holding DOES have the "similar item" description - so when the bag of holding is placed inside the vessel, the DM could decide that the "similar item" clause applies.
My definition of a similar item is one with that clause. It's the only clear approach. Any other one leads to surprise booms.
The surprise issue is solved by the DM simply informing you that you're aware of the interaction/retconning the situation if everyone suddenly realizes the interaction. Unless you have a particularly adversarial DM, in which case there's probably bigger issues at the table.
I wouldn't have the PH/Bag go boom, because the vessel rules doesn't say it does, and that's my rule of thumb for what a similar item is. (The 'similar item' is needed because there can always be more items added, so you can't have an exhaustive list.)
However, this doesn't fully replace the 10th level feature, as it doesn't give the rest bonuses, and it can't be done spontaneously.
That said, "you don't have the feature that lets you have a house party in your vessel, so everyone else is immediately ejected" is a perfectly reasonable ruling.
I agree with this.
Personally I think the vessel qualifies as the “extra dimensional space” so would go boom, but I would clarify that with the players beforehand so they know. But if I did allow it, it would be as the bolded above from ji8e.
Given that the effect is explained for the bag of holding, then the player who knows they have a bag of holding would know the interaction, and I translate that into my DM-ing as me reminding them that they cant do that unless they want to cause the boom.
If it were written as a curse...then the surprise boom would absolutely be on the table though.
This all becomes much worse if we consider the Efficient Quiver (aka Quiver of Ehlonna). This item also states that it has connections to "extradimensional space" but only notes that they can store certain elongated objects or items similar to them. However, the quiver doesn't contain the text that it would be destroyed and create a gateway if put in an extradimensional space.
There's arguably no reason to fear a bag of holding or such to be put inside the quiver since they could be noted as not being "similar items" to the ones mentioned that can be stored in the quiver. But the Quiver going in a bag of holding is certainly a possibility. Yet there's no item rule for what happens if it does get put in an extradimensional space.
Ok what if a dead character is brought in and revived inside, technically they were an object when brought in, and yes I know this post is old as crap.
As for access before level 10: no, that is stretching the rules imho.
Regarding the similar item discussion, I think one should look at the function: Portable Holes, Handy Haversack etc. are special storage containers. However, a Genie's Vessel is a special living space, just like Magnificent Mansion. Although all are extra dimensional, they are not all similar items from my point of view.
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"Semper in faecibus sumus, solum profundum variat" playing since 1986
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The question:
Can party member(s) enter the Genie Vessel by the use of bag of holding or portable hole prior to obtaining the 10th Genie Warlock level feature: Sanctuary Vessel?
Background info:
Bottle Respite feature obtained at Warlock Level 1 allows the user to use an action to "magically vanish and enter your vessel, which remains in the space you left".
The Assumptions:
No clear description on how items enter the genie vessel but I'm assuming that items worn and held by the genie warlock can enter the vessel.
Bag of holding and other similar items won't trigger the implosion effect while within the Genie Vessel. <- key description used being "similar item". A genie's vessel isn't a similar item when comparing description text as it specifically lacks "the placing the genie vessel into a bag of holding" clause.
The turn by turn play:
Genie warlock have a player enter into a bag of holding/portable hole.
Genie warlock holds the bag of holding/portable hole
Genie warlock enters the genie vessel
Party member pops out of the portable hole/genie vessel
By RAW I can see a case for a DM to say yes but by RAI I'm feeling it's a no. Thoughts?
There are a lot of different ways a DM could go about this within the RAW. It certainly wouldn't be RAI for the warlock to get its level 10 feature early by exploiting an uncommon item.
There isn't a specifically correct way of handling it though, completely up to DM.
The genie's vessel is an Object whose interior is an "extradimensional space", this it would be considered an item for the bag of holding's "similar item" clause.
As a DM I might be generous and allow the warlock to not immediately go poof if they're carrying such a bag - and reserve the poof for if they try to open the bag within the vessel.
I gotta agree with that. "Similar item" is a "DM discretion" phrase, though, so I guess a DM might rule the Genie's Vessel doesn't count.
Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
I wouldn't have the PH/Bag go boom, because the vessel rules doesn't say it does, and that's my rule of thumb for what a similar item is. (The 'similar item' is needed because there can always be more items added, so you can't have an exhaustive list.)
However, this doesn't fully replace the 10th level feature, as it doesn't give the rest bonuses, and it can't be done spontaneously.
That said, "you don't have the feature that lets you have a house party in your vessel, so everyone else is immediately ejected" is a perfectly reasonable ruling.
But the bag of holding DOES have the "similar item" description - so when the bag of holding is placed inside the vessel, the DM could decide that the "similar item" clause applies.
My definition of a similar item is one with that clause. It's the only clear approach. Any other one leads to surprise booms.
It's not necessarily an item I mean there's an item involved but it's not a classic magic item it's a class feature and I argue both items need the clause in order for that effect to be relevant otherwise it's unfair to the players.
Warlock - Genie - Bottle Respite: "The interior of the vessel is an extradimensional space"
Bag of holding: "Placing a bag of holding inside an extradimensional space created by a handy haversack, portable hole, or similar item -"
The Genie bottle is described as an "extradimensional space" and the bag of holding notes that the destruction and gate opening occurs when the bag enters an "extradimensional space"
However, the bag goes on to specify "an extradimensional space created by -" before listing several items which gives some specificity to it. The second "however" comes when we see it list "or similar item". The lack of the same rule in the Genie Bottle suggests RAW that the same would not occur if the bottle was put inside the bag however, as the specifics of the rule on the bag are if IT (the bag) is put into an extradimensional space and there is no general rule of putting extra dimensional spaces inside each other.
That last note gives some credit to the idea that without the same clause an item would not constitute a "similar item". But with the specific of an extradimensional space and the note of the vessel specifically being an extradimensional space I think this falls well within most interpretations of RAW to say that the Genie Bottle is a "Similar item" and placing the bag inside would cause the rule on destruction and gateway to occur.
Ruling that putting the bag inside the Genie Bottle solves 2 problems which is why I think it's a good ruling:
1. It rules out this exact exploit of putting more creatures than the warlock into the Genie Bottle before Level 10.
2. It reduces the minor exploit of using the Genie bottle for carrying all the party's equipment since the Warlock could only take in or retrieve as much as they can carry for each entry, rather than as much as can be fit in however many bags of holding, portable holes, handy haversacks, etc.
The surprise issue is solved by the DM simply informing you that you're aware of the interaction/retconning the situation if everyone suddenly realizes the interaction. Unless you have a particularly adversarial DM, in which case there's probably bigger issues at the table.
I agree with this.
Personally I think the vessel qualifies as the “extra dimensional space” so would go boom, but I would clarify that with the players beforehand so they know. But if I did allow it, it would be as the bolded above from ji8e.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Given that the effect is explained for the bag of holding, then the player who knows they have a bag of holding would know the interaction, and I translate that into my DM-ing as me reminding them that they cant do that unless they want to cause the boom.
If it were written as a curse...then the surprise boom would absolutely be on the table though.
This all becomes much worse if we consider the Efficient Quiver (aka Quiver of Ehlonna). This item also states that it has connections to "extradimensional space" but only notes that they can store certain elongated objects or items similar to them. However, the quiver doesn't contain the text that it would be destroyed and create a gateway if put in an extradimensional space.
There's arguably no reason to fear a bag of holding or such to be put inside the quiver since they could be noted as not being "similar items" to the ones mentioned that can be stored in the quiver. But the Quiver going in a bag of holding is certainly a possibility. Yet there's no item rule for what happens if it does get put in an extradimensional space.
Ok what if a dead character is brought in and revived inside, technically they were an object when brought in, and yes I know this post is old as crap.
As for access before level 10: no, that is stretching the rules imho.
Regarding the similar item discussion, I think one should look at the function:
Portable Holes, Handy Haversack etc. are special storage containers.
However, a Genie's Vessel is a special living space, just like Magnificent Mansion.
Although all are extra dimensional, they are not all similar items from my point of view.
playing since 1986