Here is my understanding of being Unseen and being Hidden.
Unseen = You are not visible (Examples: tucked away in deep foliage, standing in a pitch black cave corner, behind a curtain, etc). You are NOT Hidden, and your general location is known (i.e. “Some one is in that dark cave corner.”)
Hidden = You were merely Unseen, but you took it a step further, with a Stealth/Hide action, and now you are not visible, nor are you heard. Your location is unknown.
If you Attack while Hidden, your targets may or may not be Surprised by you (depending on PP checks). Also, since you were also Unseen, you’ll have Advantage on your first Attack.
Assuming I’ve got all that correctly understood…my questions are:
* If the Hidden did a Ranged Attack (ex: The guy in the pitch black cave corner fired a crossbow out), I get he’s no longer Hidden, but he’s still Unseen, right? You know he’s in that darkness, the general location, so you could Attack him back, at Disadvantage. Until he stepped out of the dark spot, or it got lit up, he’d also continue to have Advantage on his Range Attacks out, right? I’ve read on so many threads, and it sounds like people are mixing up Unseen and Hidden. People will say stuff like, “No, he Attacked, so he gave up his location, and lost his Advantage.” Why would he give up his Advantage? He’s still an Unseen Attacker…
He gave up his location (and forfeited his Hidden status), but you still can’t see him.
My understanding of all this makes sense, I feel…if a guy was behind a curtain (Unseen), you would be at a Disadvantage to hit him, and likewise, when he popped a shot out at you, he’d have Advantage, since you weren’t exactly sure where it was coming from. If same guy had Hid, behind that curtain, the only difference would be you’d not even know he’s back there, OR have no clue even remotely where he was behind it (you could only guess places to attack at, hoping to get lucky and hit him).
The rules for stealth are lacking. They are basically only half written.
I think what you are referring to as "unseen" is what the rules call heavily obscured. You have advantage attacks while heavily obscured from your target, and attackers have disadvantage against you.
Hidden does take it one step further by hiding your position, but depending on DM (because this is the part that they didn't write...) you coud move to being only lightly obscured without losing the hidden status. In this case when you make an attack (at advantage) and reveal your location, enemies could spot you instantly and you wouldn't be "unseen".
Ultimately you have to talk to your DM about it because of the rules that don't exist.
If the Hidden did a Ranged Attack (ex: The guy in the pitch black cave corner fired a crossbow out), I get he’s no longer Hidden, but he’s still Unseen, right? You know he’s in that darkness, the general location, so you could Attack him back, at Disadvantage. Until he stepped out of the dark spot, or it got lit up, he’d also continue to have Advantage on his Range Attacks out, right?
That's correct, the advantage/disadvantage coming from Unseen Attackers and Targets is in effect as long as the vision or light condition remains unchanged. In this situation, the attacker is Heavily Obscured from creatures that can't see in darkness, effectively suffering from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area. Any light or Darkvision letting one see into it would impact this.
“I think what you are referring to as "unseen" is what the rules call heavily obscured. You have advantage attacks while heavily obscured from your target, and attackers have disadvantage against you.”
One key point. Visibility between target and attacker is the important factor in determining advantage, disadvantage or neither.
If you can't see your target then you have disadvantage on the attack roll.
If your target can't see you then you have advantage on the attack roll.
If you can't see your target AND they can't see you then advantage and disadvantage cancel out leaving both the target and the attacker with straight rolls. In addition, any other sources of advantage or disadvantage are also cancelled.
In your example above with a creature standing in a dark corner. The die rolls don't depend on the creature's hidden status, they depend on whether the creatures can see each other or not.
If the creature in the dark corner is hidden but lacks the ability to see in the dark then attacks against any other creatures that also can't see in the dark are straight rolls. The only benefit of being hidden when neither creature can see in the dark is that your location is not known and attackers have to specify which location they are attacking (guess where their target is). If the target is there then the attack will be a straight roll since neither the target nor attacker can see each other.
Hidden means unseen and unheard - the location of a hidden creature is not known but in many cases an attacker can make an educated guess. As soon as a hidden creature attacks their location is now known (except for a specific feat preventing the location being revealed on a miss). Depending on the situation they may remain unseen (e.g. greater invisibility, shadow of moil, darkness) but they are no longer hidden.
"Unseen Attackers and Targets
Combatants often try to escape their foes’ notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness.
When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or you’re targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target’s location correctly.
When a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.
If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."
David42, here’s my understanding, based on DxJxC and Plaguescarred’s confirmation/replies:
- imagine a lit cave, with a dark corner
- there’s a bandit in the dark corner
- a party comes into the lit cave (no darkvision)
- that bandit is an Unseen Attacker.
- Furthermore, if the bandit was Hidden (and party failed PP check), they’d be Surprised
- regardless if he was Hidden and could get Surprise that first round, the bandit is an Unseen Attacker and would get Advantage on his Ranged Attacks at the party, and they’d have Disadvantage on Ranged Attacks back at him.
- This situation would continue until the bandit came out of the dark corner, or it got lit up somehow.
The confusion I had was stemming from misinformation in other places…people saying the bandit would only have his Unseen Attacker advantages on the FIRST Attack (people claimed he’d be “giving up his location” after the first attack…obviously confusing Unseen with Hidden). I just needed some validation my interpretation was correct. Regardless if they know the bandit is there, as long as he’s in that dark corner, he remains an Unseen Attacker. :)
David42, here’s my understanding, based on DxJxC and Plaguescarred’s confirmation/replies:
- imagine a lit cave, with a dark corner
- there’s a bandit in the dark corner
- a party comes into the lit cave (no darkvision)
- that bandit is an Unseen Attacker.
- Furthermore, if the bandit was Hidden (and party failed PP check), they’d be Surprised
- regardless if he was Hidden and could get Surprise that first round, the bandit is an Unseen Attacker and would get Advantage on his Ranged Attacks at the party, and they’d have Disadvantage on Ranged Attacks back at him.
- This situation would continue until the bandit came out of the dark corner, or it got lit up somehow.
The confusion I had was stemming from misinformation in other places…people saying the bandit would only have his Unseen Attacker advantages on the FIRST Attack (people claimed he’d be “giving up his location” after the first attack…obviously confusing Unseen with Hidden). I just needed some validation my interpretation was correct. Regardless if they know the bandit is there, as long as he’s in that dark corner, he remains an Unseen Attacker. :)
Yep. Which is exactly what the unseen attackers rule I quoted from the PHB says.
In your example with a lit cave and a dark corner where the creature in the corner can see their target but the target can not see them then the attacks from the creature in the darkness have advantage while the attacks by the creatures in the light have disadvantage since they can't see the creature in the darkness.
Whether the creature in the darkness is hidden or not is irrelevant to whether the attacks have advantage or disadvantage. It is the fact that they are unseen and remain unseen that matters.
On the other hand, if the entire cave was lit and the bandit was hidden behind furniture where they could not be seen then they would have one attack with advantage because they were hidden. As soon as they attack, they give away their location and even if they duck back behind the furniture where they can't be seen they can not get advantage on another attack unless they successfully hide first.
Being hidden in situations like this where someone hides behind an obstacle and then has to make themselves visible to attack has less to do with knowing where a creature is than being aware of what the creature is likely doing so that you can see the attack when it comes.
The confusion I had was stemming from misinformation in other places…people saying the bandit would only have his Unseen Attacker advantages on the FIRST Attack (people claimed he’d be “giving up his location” after the first attack…obviously confusing Unseen with Hidden). I just needed some validation my interpretation was correct. Regardless if they know the bandit is there, as long as he’s in that dark corner, he remains an Unseen Attacker. :)
Unseen Attackers and Targets doesn't strictly apply to the first attack on a turn nor is it required to have your location unknown, it instead apply whenever attacking while unseen.
On the other hand, if the entire cave was lit and the bandit was hidden behind furniture where they could not be seen then they would have one attack with advantage because they were hidden. As soon as they attack, they give away their location and even if they duck back behind the furniture where they can't be seen they can not get advantage on another attack unless they successfully hide first.
That would be a DM call, the Hide rules don't specifically prevent hiding in combat, despite location being known while seen or not, all you need is not be seen clearly to hide so in combat when your location is known to all you can hide, but it might be easy to guess your location while you're unseen and unheard this way.
Hello all.
Here is my understanding of being Unseen and being Hidden.
Unseen = You are not visible (Examples: tucked away in deep foliage, standing in a pitch black cave corner, behind a curtain, etc). You are NOT Hidden, and your general location is known (i.e. “Some one is in that dark cave corner.”)
Hidden = You were merely Unseen, but you took it a step further, with a Stealth/Hide action, and now you are not visible, nor are you heard. Your location is unknown.
If you Attack while Hidden, your targets may or may not be Surprised by you (depending on PP checks). Also, since you were also Unseen, you’ll have Advantage on your first Attack.
Assuming I’ve got all that correctly understood…my questions are:
* If the Hidden did a Ranged Attack (ex: The guy in the pitch black cave corner fired a crossbow out), I get he’s no longer Hidden, but he’s still Unseen, right? You know he’s in that darkness, the general location, so you could Attack him back, at Disadvantage. Until he stepped out of the dark spot, or it got lit up, he’d also continue to have Advantage on his Range Attacks out, right? I’ve read on so many threads, and it sounds like people are mixing up Unseen and Hidden. People will say stuff like, “No, he Attacked, so he gave up his location, and lost his Advantage.” Why would he give up his Advantage? He’s still an Unseen Attacker…
He gave up his location (and forfeited his Hidden status), but you still can’t see him.
My understanding of all this makes sense, I feel…if a guy was behind a curtain (Unseen), you would be at a Disadvantage to hit him, and likewise, when he popped a shot out at you, he’d have Advantage, since you weren’t exactly sure where it was coming from. If same guy had Hid, behind that curtain, the only difference would be you’d not even know he’s back there, OR have no clue even remotely where he was behind it (you could only guess places to attack at, hoping to get lucky and hit him).
The rules for stealth are lacking. They are basically only half written.
I think what you are referring to as "unseen" is what the rules call heavily obscured. You have advantage attacks while heavily obscured from your target, and attackers have disadvantage against you.
Hidden does take it one step further by hiding your position, but depending on DM (because this is the part that they didn't write...) you coud move to being only lightly obscured without losing the hidden status. In this case when you make an attack (at advantage) and reveal your location, enemies could spot you instantly and you wouldn't be "unseen".
Ultimately you have to talk to your DM about it because of the rules that don't exist.
That's correct, the advantage/disadvantage coming from Unseen Attackers and Targets is in effect as long as the vision or light condition remains unchanged. In this situation, the attacker is Heavily Obscured from creatures that can't see in darkness, effectively suffering from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area. Any light or Darkvision letting one see into it would impact this.
One key point. Visibility between target and attacker is the important factor in determining advantage, disadvantage or neither.
If you can't see your target then you have disadvantage on the attack roll.
If your target can't see you then you have advantage on the attack roll.
If you can't see your target AND they can't see you then advantage and disadvantage cancel out leaving both the target and the attacker with straight rolls. In addition, any other sources of advantage or disadvantage are also cancelled.
In your example above with a creature standing in a dark corner. The die rolls don't depend on the creature's hidden status, they depend on whether the creatures can see each other or not.
If the creature in the dark corner is hidden but lacks the ability to see in the dark then attacks against any other creatures that also can't see in the dark are straight rolls. The only benefit of being hidden when neither creature can see in the dark is that your location is not known and attackers have to specify which location they are attacking (guess where their target is). If the target is there then the attack will be a straight roll since neither the target nor attacker can see each other.
Hidden means unseen and unheard - the location of a hidden creature is not known but in many cases an attacker can make an educated guess. As soon as a hidden creature attacks their location is now known (except for a specific feat preventing the location being revealed on a miss). Depending on the situation they may remain unseen (e.g. greater invisibility, shadow of moil, darkness) but they are no longer hidden.
"Unseen Attackers and Targets
Combatants often try to escape their foes’ notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness.
When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or you’re targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target’s location correctly.
When a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.
If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."
David42, here’s my understanding, based on DxJxC and Plaguescarred’s confirmation/replies:
- imagine a lit cave, with a dark corner
- there’s a bandit in the dark corner
- a party comes into the lit cave (no darkvision)
- that bandit is an Unseen Attacker.
- Furthermore, if the bandit was Hidden (and party failed PP check), they’d be Surprised
- regardless if he was Hidden and could get Surprise that first round, the bandit is an Unseen Attacker and would get Advantage on his Ranged Attacks at the party, and they’d have Disadvantage on Ranged Attacks back at him.
- This situation would continue until the bandit came out of the dark corner, or it got lit up somehow.
The confusion I had was stemming from misinformation in other places…people saying the bandit would only have his Unseen Attacker advantages on the FIRST Attack (people claimed he’d be “giving up his location” after the first attack…obviously confusing Unseen with Hidden). I just needed some validation my interpretation was correct. Regardless if they know the bandit is there, as long as he’s in that dark corner, he remains an Unseen Attacker. :)
Yep. Which is exactly what the unseen attackers rule I quoted from the PHB says.
In your example with a lit cave and a dark corner where the creature in the corner can see their target but the target can not see them then the attacks from the creature in the darkness have advantage while the attacks by the creatures in the light have disadvantage since they can't see the creature in the darkness.
Whether the creature in the darkness is hidden or not is irrelevant to whether the attacks have advantage or disadvantage. It is the fact that they are unseen and remain unseen that matters.
On the other hand, if the entire cave was lit and the bandit was hidden behind furniture where they could not be seen then they would have one attack with advantage because they were hidden. As soon as they attack, they give away their location and even if they duck back behind the furniture where they can't be seen they can not get advantage on another attack unless they successfully hide first.
Being hidden in situations like this where someone hides behind an obstacle and then has to make themselves visible to attack has less to do with knowing where a creature is than being aware of what the creature is likely doing so that you can see the attack when it comes.
Unseen Attackers and Targets doesn't strictly apply to the first attack on a turn nor is it required to have your location unknown, it instead apply whenever attacking while unseen.
That would be a DM call, the Hide rules don't specifically prevent hiding in combat, despite location being known while seen or not, all you need is not be seen clearly to hide so in combat when your location is known to all you can hide, but it might be easy to guess your location while you're unseen and unheard this way.
This was also confirmed by the Dev here and here
@McCrayHollis Can a lightfoot halfling rogue hide behind a medium creature every round to get their sneak attack damage? A party member?
@mikemearls as long as all requirements for hiding are met
@danthompson67 need help. If a rogue is in complete cover, can they BA hide? DM rules that enemies are constantly aware despite cover.
@JeremyECrawford The Hide action is one of the actions you can take in combat (PH, 192) because you can, indeed, hide in combat. #DnD
Thank you, all. ✌🏼