In the last game; Character A, would announce to ready his action to disengage if target creature made an attack.
Its a sure way for players to not be overly dominating onto Neutral aligned NPCs. It a game where the characters need to be careful of what they kill, due to consequences.
Character A is a Rogue, Revived subclass. Using their bonus action to disengage as cunning action, that then triggers Bolts from the Grave, this gives an attack. It's a nifty little combo, feeling the RAI this is what the build is good for.
However RAW, and my game is not about rules lawyering, but I do like to clarify the rules after a session for balancing purposes.
The rules state
Then, you choose the Action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your speed in response to it.
But they don't mention Bonus Actions.
1/ Can Ready an action begin with a bonus action? (i.e Is it possible to ready cunning action)
2/ Once disengaged, the using the Bolts from the Grave is still legal?
3/ Character A disengages before or after the attack is made? ( I would think before, however I think his thinking was to be defensive with Bolts of the Grave rather than specifically evasive)
Well let's see if we can get some clarity on this. I ruled it was all alright, and the mook never attacked, but was that the right decision. What would you have done?
If you have time, would you please be able to clarify for me where in the rules these are stated? And if possible, some reasoning behind your conclusion.
One thing I will say right off the bat is that the Revived Rogue subclass is UA material from 2020 and has not yet been published, unlike the Rune Knight Fighter it appeared alongside.
As for your questions I will try and answer them to the best of my knowledge.
1) The general understanding is that only Actions or Movement can be readied, not Bonus Actions. The language of the Readied action simply says "Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your speed in response to it." The assumption is that the text means an Action when it uses the word "action", however 5e is written using common language rather than rigorously defined terms so there is room for interpretation there. Later in the rule though it talks about readying spells and there it specifically states: "To be readied, a spell must have a casting time of 1 action, and holding onto the spell’s magic requires concentration (explained in chapter 10)." So for spells at least it is clear you cannot ready Misty Step. The way the rule treats spells, the way the text in general tends to use the word "action" to refer to an Action in features like Action Surge, and the Sage Advice ruling that you cannot use your Action to make a Bonus Action all suggest that the RAW is that a player cannot Ready a Bonus Action.
2) I don't see anything in the text of the Bolts of the Grave feature that restricts it to only the player's turn, the only requirement is that the player completes their Cunning Action. So if you allowed the player to Ready their Cunning Action it would proc Bolts of the Grave. Be aware though that if you allow a Rogue to Ready their Cunning Action they will be able to use their Action to Ready Cunning Action, and then use their Bonus Action on Cunning Action as well. This would make getting two instances of Sneak Attack damage in a round trivially easy for a Revived Rogue so be aware.
3) The text of Bolts of the Grave states: "Immediately after you use your Cunning Action . . ." so the ranged spell attack occurs after the Cunning Action is resolved. If the player chooses to Hide then it occurs after they make their Stealth check. For Dash and Disengage it is trickier to decide when they are resolved because they merely effect your movement but are not necessarily a part of it. Personally I would have Bolts of the Grave trigger once they finished their movement for the turn in these cases but I do not believe that is strictly required by the RAW. *Edit* I misunderstood the question being asked, Plaguescarred is correct unless the rules for the specific reaction say otherwise the reaction occurs after the trigger.
On a side note, I am not a big fan of the way the Ready action is written. For me the sticking point is how it interacts with the Movement rules. Technically you can only have Movement equal to your speed on your turn, unless you take the Ready action and ready Movement. This distinction is important because it means using the Ready action with the Dash or Disengage action does not behave as one would intuitively expect. The issue is that when it is not the player's turn their movement is 0, so when the player readies the Dash action they end up with the same movement available as if they had readied Movement. This is a minor problem but I find it a little dissonant that these two different courses of action yield the same result. The bigger problem is that if the player readies the Disengage action and it triggers when it is not their turn, then they have no movement available to them and they effectively wasted their action.
Can a bonus action be used as an action or vice versa? For example, can a bard use a bonus action to grant a Bardic Inspiration die and an action to cast healing word?
No. Actions and bonus actions aren’t interchangeable. In the example, the bard could use Bardic Inspiration or healing word on a turn, not both.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
If you have time would you please be able to clarify for me where in the rules these are stated?
You already quoted the relevant rule:
First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your speed in response to it.
Bonus actions are not actions. You cannot perform one as the other without a feature that specifically says so.
And "character A" should just disengage, not waste their action and reaction readying it. The reaction you readied occurs after the trigger, so in this case the attack hits first, defeating the purpose of the disengage action in the first place.
Honestly, the strongest textual support for not readying a bonus action is the following:
”You can take a bonus action only when a special ability, spell, or other feature of the game states that you can do something as a bonus action.”
A bonus action isn’t a container that everyone just has and that’s waiting to be filled. Being allowed to take a bonus action is itself an exception to the general rule. You’d need an additional specific exception to let you ready one, because you’re only granted the special ability to take one on your turn.
If you have time would you please be able to clarify for me where in the rules these are stated?
You're welcome! Sure here is the relevant rules;
Bonus Actions: You can take only one bonus action on your turn.
Ready: First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your speed in response to it.
Can a bonus action be used as an action or vice versa?For example, can a bard use a bonus action to grant a Bardic Inspiration die and an action to cast healing word? No. Actions and bonus actions aren’t interchangeable. In the example, the bard could use Bardic Inspiration or healing word on a turn, not both.
Can you use the Ready action to take the Dash action on someone else’s turn and then combine the Charger feat with it? No, since you can’t take a bonus action on someone else’s turn.
Also to clarify, Disengage =/= Movement in 5e. If you take your action to disengage, all that means is that when you *do* step out of a threatened square, you'll be okay. But disengage by itself doesn't let you move. Every table is unique, and rule of cool and all that, but there's a few different reasons I wouldn't let that rogue do that move if I were DM.
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Just to add to the discussion, Cunning Action specifically gives the rogue a bonus action that they can take on each of their turns. A DM could rule that if it isn't the character's turn then they do not have a Cunning Action bonus action. Extra attack is similarly limited since the text says when the character takes the attack action on their turn they get an additional attack - which is why it doesn't apply for readied attack actions.
"Starting at 2nd level, your quick thinking and agility allow you to move and act quickly. You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat."
Also to clarify, Disengage =/= Movement in 5e. If you take your action to disengage, all that means is that when you *do* step out of a threatened square, you'll be okay. But disengage by itself doesn't let you move. Every table is unique, and rule of cool and all that, but there's a few different reasons I wouldn't let that rogue do that move if I were DM.
Ready action is a bit difficult to resolve with movement at times.
However, I would allow a character to trigger their movement to move away when an opponent approaches (e.g. I run as far as possible from any opponents if an attacker gets within a specified distance e.g. 10', 15' etc.). If the character's goal is to avoid an opponent ending adjacent then I don't really see an issue since they have expended an action to try to ensure that doesn't happen.
Narratively, for fun, I'd likely have the reaction movement occur simultaneously with the opponent moving forward to add tension to the scene and leave the players wondering if the attacking creature is faster and will catch up in the end but I don't see an issue in avoiding an op attack by moving away before the attacking creature gets close enough to make an attack.
P.S. In context with the OP, I would not allow a rogue to specify using their cunning action to dash away thus triggering a rider on the bonus action use since cunning action is specifically available only on the rogues turn and I share the opinion that you can't ready bonus actions.
In the last game; Character A, would announce to ready his action to disengage if target creature made an attack.
Its a sure way for players to not be overly dominating onto Neutral aligned NPCs. It a game where the characters need to be careful of what they kill, due to consequences.
Character A is a Rogue, Revived subclass. Using their bonus action to disengage as cunning action, that then triggers Bolts from the Grave, this gives an attack. It's a nifty little combo, feeling the RAI this is what the build is good for.
However RAW, and my game is not about rules lawyering, but I do like to clarify the rules after a session for balancing purposes.
The rules state
But they don't mention Bonus Actions.
1/ Can Ready an action begin with a bonus action? (i.e Is it possible to ready cunning action)
2/ Once disengaged, the using the Bolts from the Grave is still legal?
3/ Character A disengages before or after the attack is made? ( I would think before, however I think his thinking was to be defensive with Bolts of the Grave rather than specifically evasive)
Well let's see if we can get some clarity on this. I ruled it was all alright, and the mook never attacked, but was that the right decision. What would you have done?
1. You Ready an action, not a bonus action. Bonus action must be taken on your turn, so no Cunning Action can be readied this way.
2. Readying the Disengage action would serve no purpose since no movement is made off turn to avoid OA's as a reaction.
3. Readying the Disengage action would result in disengaging as a reaction right after the trigger finishes.
Great thank you for clarifying.
If you have time, would you please be able to clarify for me where in the rules these are stated? And if possible, some reasoning behind your conclusion.
One thing I will say right off the bat is that the Revived Rogue subclass is UA material from 2020 and has not yet been published, unlike the Rune Knight Fighter it appeared alongside.
As for your questions I will try and answer them to the best of my knowledge.
1) The general understanding is that only Actions or Movement can be readied, not Bonus Actions. The language of the Readied action simply says "Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your speed in response to it." The assumption is that the text means an Action when it uses the word "action", however 5e is written using common language rather than rigorously defined terms so there is room for interpretation there. Later in the rule though it talks about readying spells and there it specifically states: "To be readied, a spell must have a casting time of 1 action, and holding onto the spell’s magic requires concentration (explained in chapter 10)." So for spells at least it is clear you cannot ready Misty Step. The way the rule treats spells, the way the text in general tends to use the word "action" to refer to an Action in features like Action Surge, and the Sage Advice ruling that you cannot use your Action to make a Bonus Action all suggest that the RAW is that a player cannot Ready a Bonus Action.
2) I don't see anything in the text of the Bolts of the Grave feature that restricts it to only the player's turn, the only requirement is that the player completes their Cunning Action. So if you allowed the player to Ready their Cunning Action it would proc Bolts of the Grave. Be aware though that if you allow a Rogue to Ready their Cunning Action they will be able to use their Action to Ready Cunning Action, and then use their Bonus Action on Cunning Action as well. This would make getting two instances of Sneak Attack damage in a round trivially easy for a Revived Rogue so be aware.
3) The text of Bolts of the Grave states: "Immediately after you use your Cunning Action . . ." so the ranged spell attack occurs after the Cunning Action is resolved. If the player chooses to Hide then it occurs after they make their Stealth check. For Dash and Disengage it is trickier to decide when they are resolved because they merely effect your movement but are not necessarily a part of it. Personally I would have Bolts of the Grave trigger once they finished their movement for the turn in these cases but I do not believe that is strictly required by the RAW. *Edit* I misunderstood the question being asked, Plaguescarred is correct unless the rules for the specific reaction say otherwise the reaction occurs after the trigger.
On a side note, I am not a big fan of the way the Ready action is written. For me the sticking point is how it interacts with the Movement rules. Technically you can only have Movement equal to your speed on your turn, unless you take the Ready action and ready Movement. This distinction is important because it means using the Ready action with the Dash or Disengage action does not behave as one would intuitively expect. The issue is that when it is not the player's turn their movement is 0, so when the player readies the Dash action they end up with the same movement available as if they had readied Movement. This is a minor problem but I find it a little dissonant that these two different courses of action yield the same result. The bigger problem is that if the player readies the Disengage action and it triggers when it is not their turn, then they have no movement available to them and they effectively wasted their action.
Here are the developers clarifying that Bonus Actions cannot be done as Actions: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA116
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
You already quoted the relevant rule:
Bonus actions are not actions. You cannot perform one as the other without a feature that specifically says so.
And "character A" should just disengage, not waste their action and reaction readying it. The reaction you readied occurs after the trigger, so in this case the attack hits first, defeating the purpose of the disengage action in the first place.
However, in another part of the SAC (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA062) says:
Honestly, the strongest textual support for not readying a bonus action is the following:
”You can take a bonus action only when a special ability, spell, or other feature of the game states that you can do something as a bonus action.”
A bonus action isn’t a container that everyone just has and that’s waiting to be filled. Being allowed to take a bonus action is itself an exception to the general rule. You’d need an additional specific exception to let you ready one, because you’re only granted the special ability to take one on your turn.
You're welcome! Sure here is the relevant rules;
Here's additional Official Ruling in Sage Advice Compendium ;
Finally, it was also clarified by the Dev here
Also to clarify, Disengage =/= Movement in 5e. If you take your action to disengage, all that means is that when you *do* step out of a threatened square, you'll be okay. But disengage by itself doesn't let you move. Every table is unique, and rule of cool and all that, but there's a few different reasons I wouldn't let that rogue do that move if I were DM.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Just to add to the discussion, Cunning Action specifically gives the rogue a bonus action that they can take on each of their turns. A DM could rule that if it isn't the character's turn then they do not have a Cunning Action bonus action. Extra attack is similarly limited since the text says when the character takes the attack action on their turn they get an additional attack - which is why it doesn't apply for readied attack actions.
"Starting at 2nd level, your quick thinking and agility allow you to move and act quickly. You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat."
Ready action is a bit difficult to resolve with movement at times.
However, I would allow a character to trigger their movement to move away when an opponent approaches (e.g. I run as far as possible from any opponents if an attacker gets within a specified distance e.g. 10', 15' etc.). If the character's goal is to avoid an opponent ending adjacent then I don't really see an issue since they have expended an action to try to ensure that doesn't happen.
Narratively, for fun, I'd likely have the reaction movement occur simultaneously with the opponent moving forward to add tension to the scene and leave the players wondering if the attacking creature is faster and will catch up in the end but I don't see an issue in avoiding an op attack by moving away before the attacking creature gets close enough to make an attack.
P.S. In context with the OP, I would not allow a rogue to specify using their cunning action to dash away thus triggering a rider on the bonus action use since cunning action is specifically available only on the rogues turn and I share the opinion that you can't ready bonus actions.