I'm trying to figure out the limitations and interactions between the Giff Firearms Mastery, Gunslinger Gunsmith feature, and the Firearm Specialist feat.
Firearms Mastery:
You have proficiency with all firearms and ignore the loading property of any firearm. In addition, attacking at long range with a firearm doesn’t impose disadvantage on your attack roll.
Gunsmith:
Reload. The weapon can be fired a number of times equal to its Reload score before you must spend 1 attack or 1 action to reload. You must have one free hand to reload a firearm.
Misfire. Whenever you make an attack roll with a firearm, and the dice roll is equal to or lower than the weapon’s Misfire score, the weapon misfires. The attack misses, and the weapon cannot be used again until you spend an action to try and repair it. To repair your firearm, you must make a successful Tinker’s Tools check (DC equal to 8 + misfire score). If your check fails, the weapon is broken and must be mended out of combat at a quarter of the cost of the firearm. Creatures who use a firearm without being proficient increase the weapon’s misfire score by 1.
Firearm Specialist:
You gain proficiency with Firearms.
If you roll a misfire on an attack with a firearm, you can use your reaction to roll a d20. If the number rolled is higher than the weapon’s misfire score, the firearm does not misfire. You cannot use this feature of this feat again until you complete a short or long rest.
When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a loaded firearm with the light property you are holding.
Would the Giff Firearm Mastery feature allow you to ignore the reload property of the gun indefinitely? I'm unsure if loading property is the same as the Reload description.
Would you be able to fire a firearm with your action and also fire it with your bonus action provided the gun used in the action attack is one handed?
In my experience, most responders on these forums will say you can't because "loading" and "reload" are different words, so they're not the same thing (with any question, I find most of them default to a "no" response) ... but clearly the Gunslinger's "reload" is a modification of the Loading Property, and I'd 100% say that the Giff's ignoring loading properties should apply. Ultimately talk to your DM, because that's really the only opinion that will matter in your case, because the DM is the final arbiter of all rules at the table.
but clearly the Gunslinger's "reload" is a modification of the Loading Property,
It very clearly isn't. Is that assumption based only on them both having "load" in their names? Because it certainly is not based on what those properties actually do.
The loading property says: "Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make."
The reload property effectively prevents/bypasses the loading property by being the complete opposite of it not a modification of it. A feature/trait that removes a shot per action limit does not let you fire a weapon with no ammo in it. Full stop.
If anything from reading weapon properties it is closest to a modification of the ammunition property: "Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon)."
It seems like the loading property is the more restrictive version between the two and that if you can remove the loading property, the reload property would be even more easily overcome.
It seems like the loading property is the more restrictive version between the two and that if you can remove the loading property, the reload property would be even more easily overcome.
No, you should re-read what DJC has said.
An ability that makes you better/quicker at handling your gun (which is what the Loading property is about) would not make you able to fire your gun without any ammunition (which is what the Reload property is about).
It seems like the loading property is the more restrictive version between the two and that if you can remove the loading property, the reload property would be even more easily overcome.
No. As mentioned the Reload and Loading properties do different things.
In addition, the rules from the Gunslinger archetype clearly state that these are different properties.
Firearm Properties
Firearms are a new and volatile technology, and as such bringtheir own unique set of weapon properties. Some properties are followed by a number, and this number signifies an element of that property (outlined below). These properties replace the optional ones presented in the Dungeon Master’s Guide. Firearms are ranged weapons.
Reload and loading are not the same property.
Reload limits how many times you can fire a weapon before you take an action or an attack to add more ammunition.
Reload. The weapon can be fired a number of times equal to its Reload score before you must spend 1 attack or 1 action to reload. You must have one free hand to reload a firearm.
The loading property which doesn't apply to the guns in question states:
Loading. Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make.
A weapon with the loading property fires only one piece of ammunition at a time and as a result can not be fired more than once in a row because it takes too long to load that one piece of ammunition. Normally, loading a weapon is considered part of the action to fire the weapon based on the Ammunition property.
Bypassing the loading property allows a creature to fire such a weapon more than once because they are more proficient at loading the ONE piece of ammunition into the weapon making it slightly faster and thus able to fire more than once within a single action.
----
There is no reason to believe that a character which has the ability to bypass the loading property which allows them to fire the weapon more than once in succession by being slightly faster at loading a single piece of ammunition would be so much faster at loading multiple pieces of ammunition into a weapon at once that they could avoid the effects of the reloading property. In addition, the loading property is applied to weapons like crossbows where all that is required is to drop a bolt onto the weapon in the proper position. It is possible that even loading one piece of ammunition into a gun would take longer than loading a crossbow. This is especially true if the gun has to load powder and shot separately (like most early muskets).
----
The bottom line is that in reality guns may function differently from bow weapons. The guns provided by the Critical Role content have different rules and properties than the guns in the DMG and they explicitly state that the Reload property is part of a unique set of weapon properties. Loading is not reload.
---
However, as with everything in D&D, ask your DM, maybe they will be in a good mood or they will agree with your viewpoint but rules as written, the loading property is clearly not the same as the reload property.
Hello,
I'm trying to figure out the limitations and interactions between the Giff Firearms Mastery, Gunslinger Gunsmith feature, and the Firearm Specialist feat.
Firearms Mastery:
You have proficiency with all firearms and ignore the loading property of any firearm. In addition, attacking at long range with a firearm doesn’t impose disadvantage on your attack roll.
Gunsmith:
Reload. The weapon can be fired a number of times equal to its Reload score before you must spend 1 attack or 1 action to reload. You must have one free hand to reload a firearm.
Misfire. Whenever you make an attack roll with a firearm, and the dice roll is equal to or lower than the weapon’s Misfire score, the weapon misfires. The attack misses, and the weapon cannot be used again until you spend an action to try and repair it. To repair your firearm, you must make a successful Tinker’s Tools check (DC equal to 8 + misfire score). If your check fails, the weapon is broken and must be mended out of combat at a quarter of the cost of the firearm. Creatures who use a firearm without being proficient increase the weapon’s misfire score by 1.
Firearm Specialist:
Would the Giff Firearm Mastery feature allow you to ignore the reload property of the gun indefinitely? I'm unsure if loading property is the same as the Reload description.
Would you be able to fire a firearm with your action and also fire it with your bonus action provided the gun used in the action attack is one handed?
Gunslinger and firearm specialist are from critical role and have some custom firearm rules.
Loading and reload are different properties, so the Giff does not ignore it.
In my experience, most responders on these forums will say you can't because "loading" and "reload" are different words, so they're not the same thing (with any question, I find most of them default to a "no" response) ... but clearly the Gunslinger's "reload" is a modification of the Loading Property, and I'd 100% say that the Giff's ignoring loading properties should apply. Ultimately talk to your DM, because that's really the only opinion that will matter in your case, because the DM is the final arbiter of all rules at the table.
It very clearly isn't. Is that assumption based only on them both having "load" in their names? Because it certainly is not based on what those properties actually do.
The loading property says: "Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make."
The reload property effectively prevents/bypasses the loading property by being the complete opposite of it not a modification of it. A feature/trait that removes a shot per action limit does not let you fire a weapon with no ammo in it. Full stop.
If anything from reading weapon properties it is closest to a modification of the ammunition property: "Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon)."
It seems like the loading property is the more restrictive version between the two and that if you can remove the loading property, the reload property would be even more easily overcome.
No, you should re-read what DJC has said.
An ability that makes you better/quicker at handling your gun (which is what the Loading property is about) would not make you able to fire your gun without any ammunition (which is what the Reload property is about).
No. As mentioned the Reload and Loading properties do different things.
In addition, the rules from the Gunslinger archetype clearly state that these are different properties.
Firearm Properties
Firearms are a new and volatile technology, and as such bring their own unique set of weapon properties. Some properties are followed by a number, and this number signifies an element of that property (outlined below). These properties replace the optional ones presented in the Dungeon Master’s Guide. Firearms are ranged weapons.
Reload and loading are not the same property.
Reload limits how many times you can fire a weapon before you take an action or an attack to add more ammunition.
Reload. The weapon can be fired a number of times equal to its Reload score before you must spend 1 attack or 1 action to reload. You must have one free hand to reload a firearm.
The loading property which doesn't apply to the guns in question states:
Loading. Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make.
A weapon with the loading property fires only one piece of ammunition at a time and as a result can not be fired more than once in a row because it takes too long to load that one piece of ammunition. Normally, loading a weapon is considered part of the action to fire the weapon based on the Ammunition property.
Bypassing the loading property allows a creature to fire such a weapon more than once because they are more proficient at loading the ONE piece of ammunition into the weapon making it slightly faster and thus able to fire more than once within a single action.
----
There is no reason to believe that a character which has the ability to bypass the loading property which allows them to fire the weapon more than once in succession by being slightly faster at loading a single piece of ammunition would be so much faster at loading multiple pieces of ammunition into a weapon at once that they could avoid the effects of the reloading property. In addition, the loading property is applied to weapons like crossbows where all that is required is to drop a bolt onto the weapon in the proper position. It is possible that even loading one piece of ammunition into a gun would take longer than loading a crossbow. This is especially true if the gun has to load powder and shot separately (like most early muskets).
----
The bottom line is that in reality guns may function differently from bow weapons. The guns provided by the Critical Role content have different rules and properties than the guns in the DMG and they explicitly state that the Reload property is part of a unique set of weapon properties. Loading is not reload.
---
However, as with everything in D&D, ask your DM, maybe they will be in a good mood or they will agree with your viewpoint but rules as written, the loading property is clearly not the same as the reload property.