I am DM'ing a campaign for high level characters. The rogue (Arcane Trickster) is level 17. He either gets advantage by being near another player/ally making an attack or by using mage hand (as a bonus action). He makes an attack, uses booming blade and sneak attack with a +4 rapier on his first attack. He then makes a second attack using a vorpal scimitar.
If an enemy tries to flee he makes an attack of opportunity. Should I allow a second sneak attack or not at 9d6 extra damage?
The enemy will also take additional damage from moving due to booming blade.
How is he getting a second attack with the scimitar? Also, officially, there’s no such thing as a +4 weapon, so I assume that’s homebrew?
But to answer the actual question posed, yes, rogues can get a second sneak attack in a round if they hit with an attack of opportunity on someone else’s turn. That may change with the rules revision coming in 2024, but for now it’s entirely within the rules.
How is he getting a second attack with the scimitar? Also, officially, there’s no such thing as a +4 weapon, so I assume that’s homebrew?
But to answer the actual question posed, yes, rogues can get a second sneak attack in a round if they hit with an attack of opportunity on someone else’s turn. That may change with the rules revision coming in 2024, but for now it’s entirely within the rules.
I assume on the turns the player isn't using a bonus action to get advantage, they're using TWF with their off hand.
I am DM'ing a campaign for high level characters. The rogue (Arcane Trickster) is level 17. He either gets advantage by being near another player/ally making an attack or by using mage hand (as a bonus action). He makes an attack, uses booming blade and sneak attack with a +4 rapier on his first attack. He then makes a second attack using a vorpal scimitar.
If an enemy tries to flee he makes an attack of opportunity. Should I allow a second sneak attack or not at 9d6 extra damage?
The enemy will also take additional damage from moving due to booming blade.
1) Just curious how the rogue is getting advantage by being near another player/ally? Are you using the optional flanking rules?
2) Having a player/ally next to the target of the attack (not next to the rogue) will let the rogue use sneak attack (as long as they don't have disadvantage on the attack roll) but it won't give them advantage.
3) If the rogue is using booming blade on their turn then they are using the cast a spell action and not the Attack action. In order to use two weapon fighting to get a bonus action attack, the character has to take the Attack action, not the Cast a spell action.
"When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand."
In addition, unless the character has the Dual Wielder feat as Plague mentioned, both weapons have to be light and the rapier isn't a light weapon even if the scimitar is.
4) The rogue CAN use sneak attack on a reaction attack like an opportunity attack as long as it isn't on their turn (or another turn on which they have already used sneak attack). The rogue is limited to one sneak attack/turn and not one/round.
---
5) The rogue has a number of ways to obtain advantage. An arcane trickster with the Find Familiar spell could have an owl or other familiar perform the help action. The rogue can also use Steady Aim as a bonus action to get advantage. The requirement in this case is that the rogue doesn't move for the turn. The arcane trickster can also use the mage hand option as mentioned.
As for Sneak Attack, it can be used an unlimited number of times per round, but only once per creature's turn. Here's a Sage Advice Q&A from the Dev on this very question if you want
Can a rogue use Sneak Attack more than once per round? The Sneak Attack description specifies that you can use the feature once per turn, but it’s not limited to your turn. The feature also doesn’t limit the number of times you can use it in a round. You sometimes get a chance to use Sneak Attack on someone else’s turn. The most common way for this to happen is when a foe provokes an opportunity attack from you. If the requirements for Sneak Attack are met, your opportunity attack can benefit from that feature. Similarly, a fighter could use Commander’s Strike to grant you an attack on the fighter’s turn, and if the attack qualifies, it can use Sneak Attack. Both of those options rely on the use of your reaction, so you could do only one of them in a round. Because you get only one reaction per round, you’re unlikely to use Sneak Attack more than twice in a round: once with your action and once with your reaction.
How is he getting a second attack with the scimitar? Also, officially, there’s no such thing as a +4 weapon, so I assume that’s homebrew?
But to answer the actual question posed, yes, rogues can get a second sneak attack in a round if they hit with an attack of opportunity on someone else’s turn. That may change with the rules revision coming in 2024, but for now it’s entirely within the rules.
I assume on the turns the player isn't using a bonus action to get advantage, they're using TWF with their off hand.
Just to say, thanks for verifying all this. I get loads of things thrown at me during combat and I have been thinking that the damage output of the Rogue is very high, as is their ability to get out of danger/damage...and they also get spells with Arcane Trickster. The two warriors I have seem to be very limited in their scope compared to the rogue.
It seems to me that I have been letting the rogue get away with (literally) murder by allowing two attacks. They don't have dual wield and the rapier, as mentioned, is not a light weapon...the scimitar is.
Yea, the +4 rapier is a homebrew item.
So, they would need to start the round and use their action to cast mage hand if they wanted to use mage hand legerdemain to get advantage on one target in future rounds.
Even if they did have dual wield, the second attack from two weapon fighting is a bonus action, correct? Using the mage hand to distract is also a bonus action. They would have to choose one or the other each round, even with dual wield right?
So, in their next round they want to use their rapier to make an attack and want to use boom shard/booming blade. Does the spell take another action to cast? The spell says:
'You brandish the weapon used in the spell’s casting and make a melee attack with it against one creature within 5 feet of you.'
Is the attack part of the process for casting the spell, i.e. can they say they cast and attack or do they have to cast booming blade first then attack next round? It seems that being able to cast and attack booming blade every round and sneak attack with the mage hand is questionable. I'll certainly be pointing out the second attack is not possible.
The rogues player is a power player, which I don't mind at all and I encourage players to push the limits of their class, but I am worried he is completely dominating combat and non-combat situations and it is causing other players to feel like they are not having much impact on the game, and it doesn't help they are hoarding magic items! Next campaign I am going to be very frugal with magical items.
Just to say, thanks for verifying all this. I get loads of things thrown at me during combat and I have been thinking that the damage output of the Rogue is very high, as is their ability to get out of danger/damage...and they also get spells with Arcane Trickster. The two warriors I have seem to be very limited in their scope compared to the rogue.
It seems to me that I have been letting the rogue get away with (literally) murder by allowing two attacks. They don't have dual wield and the rapier, as mentioned, is not a light weapon...the scimitar is.
Yea, the +4 rapier is a homebrew item.
So, they would need to start the round and use their action to cast mage hand if they wanted to use mage hand legerdemain to get advantage on one target in future rounds.
Even if they did have dual wield, the second attack from two weapon fighting is a bonus action, correct? Using the mage hand to distract is also a bonus action. They would have to choose one or the other each round, even with dual wield right?
So, in their next round they want to use their rapier to make an attack and want to use boom shard/booming blade. Does the spell take another action to cast? The spell says:
'You brandish the weapon used in the spell’s casting and make a melee attack with it against one creature within 5 feet of you.'
Is the attack part of the process for casting the spell, i.e. can they say they cast and attack or do they have to cast booming blade first then attack next round? It seems that being able to cast and attack booming blade every round and sneak attack with the mage hand is questionable. I'll certainly be pointing out the second attack is not possible.
The rogues player is a power player, which I don't mind at all and I encourage players to push the limits of their class, but I am worried he is completely dominating combat and non-combat situations and it is causing other players to feel like they are not having much impact on the game, and it doesn't help they are hoarding magic items! Next campaign I am going to be very frugal with magical items.
This is pretty much exactly the situation. These are a few options that this player is likely to take during their turn:
Action: [Tooltip Not Found], mage handBonus Action: Cunning Action or Mage Hand Legerdemain
Bonus Action: Versatile Trickster, distract target within 5 feet of hand Action: [Tooltip Not Found], booming blade, +4 rapier, with advantage
Action: Attack, light weapon Bonus Action: attack with offhand light weapon, does not add ability modifier to damage
Action: [Tooltip Not Found], booming blade, +4 rapier Bonus Action: Cunning Action or Mage Hand Legerdemain
Note that you may or may not want to allow the player to keep the mage hand active at all times, assuming that they recast it every minute while not in combat. There is also some controversy over whether or not the Versatile Trickster lets you move the mage hand with the same bonus action that you use to distract, so you can make your own ruling on that (be sure to tell the player how you decide, it's a pretty important ruling). Oh, and the attack from booming blade is a part of the action that you use to cast the spell and is just as eligible for Sneak Attack as any other attack would be.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
So, in their next round they want to use their rapier to make an attack and want to use boom shard/booming blade. Does the spell take another action to cast? The spell says:
'You brandish the weapon used in the spell’s casting and make a melee attack with it against one creature within 5 feet of you.'
Is the attack part of the process for casting the spell, i.e. can they say they cast and attack or do they have to cast booming blade first then attack next round? It seems that being able to cast and attack booming blade every round and sneak attack with the mage hand is questionable. I'll certainly be pointing out the second attack is not possible.
Booming blade takes 1 action to cast, it is a [Tooltip Not Found] action, and yes it does include the weapon attack as part of it. So any features/rules that have "when you take the attack action" in them don't apply. This includes 2wf.
You also might want to take a look at their spell list and make sure that it is mostly enchantment and illusion spells, AT should only know 3 spells from different schools at this point.
Ok...just to confirm. Casting booming blade does not let them attack with the weapon as well in that action, or it does? Getting confused.
**EDIT**
I get it now. They get their spell off and it incorporates that they get to make a to-hot roll as well, but they have used their main action to do the spell.
I have checked their spells and they have chosen too many from other schools. I assume cantrips do not count for this though, so they are fine.
Ok...just to confirm. Casting booming blade does not let them attack with the weapon as well in that action, or it does? Getting confused.
**EDIT**
I get it now. They get their spell off and it incorporates that they get to make a to-hot roll as well, but they have used their main action to do the spell.
I have checked their spells and they have chosen too many from other schools. I assume cantrips do not count for this though, so they are fine.
Yep you got it. They can only Bonus Action two weapon fighting if their Action was "Attack". But the cantrips uses a different Action type, "Cast a Spell". It does get murky with booming blade because the cantrip then has you make an attack with a weapon. But, yeah, it still isnt the Action type "Attack", so no TWF.
Sounds like he's been getting away with more than just murder, he may have snuck some warcrimes in there too.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Ok...just to confirm. Casting booming blade does not let them attack with the weapon as well in that action, or it does? Getting confused.
**EDIT**
I get it now. They get their spell off and it incorporates that they get to make a to-hot roll as well, but they have used their main action to do the spell.
I have checked their spells and they have chosen too many from other schools. I assume cantrips do not count for this though, so they are fine.
Cantrips for an AT are pretty limited. One must be Mage Hand and they only have 3 more for a total of 4 at level 17. There are no school restrictions on cantrips. At level 17 they have only 11 spells from levels 1-3, up to 3 of the 11 can be from any school and the other 8 must be from the Illusion and Enchantment schools.
Rogues are fun and sneak attack can do a lot of damage ... but it does sound like your player is taking a few liberties.
However, even with one attack with a rapier and booming blade at level 17, the character would do d8+ 3d8 + 9d6 +4 (for magic rapier) +5 (I assume they have 20 dex) which averages to 58.5 damage. Attacking with advantage if they use mage hand legerdemain or steady aim as a bonus action which is still a decent amount of damage that will usually hit due to advantage on the attack roll. There would be an extra 4d8 if their target moved.
It won't keep up with Sharpshooter/Xbow Expert or GWM/PAM type builds but it is reasonable for most martial classes without the big damage boosting feats and bonus action attacks.
One thing I'll add that unless I missed it hasn't been mentioned: of your rogue is in melee range and is routinely trying to use their reaction for opportunity attacks to get in extra sneak attacks, then monsters can and should be hitting them. Rogues' main defensive tool is often Uncanny Dodge which is also a reaction ability, their AC shouldn't be massively high unless they also have +X studded leather armor, so there's no reason that a monster wouldn't be punishing them for staying at close range. If you aren't already, then attack them!
And you're under no obligation to have monsters move away to grant the opportunity attacks either, barring someone else using an ability that forces them to use their movement to run line for instance Dissonant Whispers.
One thing I'll add that unless I missed it hasn't been mentioned: of your rogue is in melee range and is routinely trying to use their reaction for opportunity attacks to get in extra sneak attacks, then monsters can and should be hitting them. Rogues' main defensive tool is often Uncanny Dodge which is also a reaction ability, their AC shouldn't be massively high unless they also have +X studded leather armor, so there's no reason that a monster wouldn't be punishing them for staying at close range. If you aren't already, then attack them!
And you're under no obligation to have monsters move away to grant the opportunity attacks either, barring someone else using an ability that forces them to use their movement to run line for instance Dissonant Whispers.
That's a good point. Rogues don't usually like being in melee and either opt for a snipe and hide or hit and disengage strategy.
Though I imagine they must have a pretty good magic armor (they are level 17) and an AC around 19~20 (or higher if they picked up ring of protection or something). Still, CR 20 monsters shouldn't have too much issue getting a painful hit in even on that.
But to answer the actual question posed, yes, rogues can get a second sneak attack in a round if they hit with an attack of opportunity on someone else’s turn. That may change with the rules revision coming in 2024, but for now it’s entirely within the rules.
I don't want to start an absurd discussion, but that really wouldn't be a second sneak attack. It's just another sneak attack (your turn is over, so there's nothing to stop the sneak attack from triggering as long as its other conditions are met).
The situation with a creature disengaging was a 'baby' Nether Kraken (Homebrew creature) that had grabbed their miniaturised ship (they've been shrunk by the 'little people' to fit on their ship, the Titania!) whilst sailing on the fringes of the negative material plane. It's rare for my beasties to try and run away, but this anthropoid had bitten off more than it could chew and had bigger and easier fish to fry elsewhere...
This rogue has 25 AC. This is mainly due to having 26 dex and wearing the Armor of the Light:
Armor of the Light
Armor Class:
17
Weight:
10lb.
Cost:
--
Version:
1.1
The Armour of the Light is one of two ancient sets of armour made by the lost dwarves of ancient Faerun, when the Gods themselves were young. The sets were made to protect the Kings of two realms at war, helping to finally bring peace after many years. Unlike its counterpart, the Armour of Infernal Darkness, this set requires a light spell each day to see the benefits of the armour come into effect.
The mithril used to make the suit is of a special purified form of mithril, the making of which has been lost to the ages.
The armour bestows a +2 AC bonus and also increases the stats of the wearer by +3, compounded on top of other bonuses and allows the stats to go over 20.
Legend has it that should the wearers of the two armours fight, whether directly or by proxy, they will both be utterly consumed, and the armour lost forever.
Yes, it is a very powerful item.
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I am DM'ing a campaign for high level characters. The rogue (Arcane Trickster) is level 17. He either gets advantage by being near another player/ally making an attack or by using mage hand (as a bonus action). He makes an attack, uses booming blade and sneak attack with a +4 rapier on his first attack. He then makes a second attack using a vorpal scimitar.
If an enemy tries to flee he makes an attack of opportunity. Should I allow a second sneak attack or not at 9d6 extra damage?
The enemy will also take additional damage from moving due to booming blade.
You get sneak attack once per turn.
As it's the fleeing creature's turn, sneak attack procs (permitting the conditions for sneak attack are met).
How is he getting a second attack with the scimitar? Also, officially, there’s no such thing as a +4 weapon, so I assume that’s homebrew?
But to answer the actual question posed, yes, rogues can get a second sneak attack in a round if they hit with an attack of opportunity on someone else’s turn. That may change with the rules revision coming in 2024, but for now it’s entirely within the rules.
I assume on the turns the player isn't using a bonus action to get advantage, they're using TWF with their off hand.
Unless the character has the Dual Welder feat, the rapier doesn't qualify for Two-weapon fighting being not a light weapon.
1) Just curious how the rogue is getting advantage by being near another player/ally? Are you using the optional flanking rules?
2) Having a player/ally next to the target of the attack (not next to the rogue) will let the rogue use sneak attack (as long as they don't have disadvantage on the attack roll) but it won't give them advantage.
3) If the rogue is using booming blade on their turn then they are using the cast a spell action and not the Attack action. In order to use two weapon fighting to get a bonus action attack, the character has to take the Attack action, not the Cast a spell action.
"When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand."
In addition, unless the character has the Dual Wielder feat as Plague mentioned, both weapons have to be light and the rapier isn't a light weapon even if the scimitar is.
4) The rogue CAN use sneak attack on a reaction attack like an opportunity attack as long as it isn't on their turn (or another turn on which they have already used sneak attack). The rogue is limited to one sneak attack/turn and not one/round.
---
5) The rogue has a number of ways to obtain advantage. An arcane trickster with the Find Familiar spell could have an owl or other familiar perform the help action. The rogue can also use Steady Aim as a bonus action to get advantage. The requirement in this case is that the rogue doesn't move for the turn. The arcane trickster can also use the mage hand option as mentioned.
As for Sneak Attack, it can be used an unlimited number of times per round, but only once per creature's turn. Here's a Sage Advice Q&A from the Dev on this very question if you want
In my campaign the Rogue often use Sneak Attack multiple times in a round when the Fighter use Commander's Strike or the Bard use Dissonant Whisper.
Even with the feat, two-weapon fighting doesn't work, because OP says the player in question used their action to cast booming blade.
Just to say, thanks for verifying all this. I get loads of things thrown at me during combat and I have been thinking that the damage output of the Rogue is very high, as is their ability to get out of danger/damage...and they also get spells with Arcane Trickster. The two warriors I have seem to be very limited in their scope compared to the rogue.
It seems to me that I have been letting the rogue get away with (literally) murder by allowing two attacks. They don't have dual wield and the rapier, as mentioned, is not a light weapon...the scimitar is.
Yea, the +4 rapier is a homebrew item.
So, they would need to start the round and use their action to cast mage hand if they wanted to use mage hand legerdemain to get advantage on one target in future rounds.
Even if they did have dual wield, the second attack from two weapon fighting is a bonus action, correct? Using the mage hand to distract is also a bonus action. They would have to choose one or the other each round, even with dual wield right?
So, in their next round they want to use their rapier to make an attack and want to use boom shard/booming blade. Does the spell take another action to cast? The spell says:
'You brandish the weapon used in the spell’s casting and make a melee attack with it against one creature within 5 feet of you.'
Is the attack part of the process for casting the spell, i.e. can they say they cast and attack or do they have to cast booming blade first then attack next round? It seems that being able to cast and attack booming blade every round and sneak attack with the mage hand is questionable. I'll certainly be pointing out the second attack is not possible.
The rogues player is a power player, which I don't mind at all and I encourage players to push the limits of their class, but I am worried he is completely dominating combat and non-combat situations and it is causing other players to feel like they are not having much impact on the game, and it doesn't help they are hoarding magic items! Next campaign I am going to be very frugal with magical items.
This is pretty much exactly the situation. These are a few options that this player is likely to take during their turn:
Note that you may or may not want to allow the player to keep the mage hand active at all times, assuming that they recast it every minute while not in combat. There is also some controversy over whether or not the Versatile Trickster lets you move the mage hand with the same bonus action that you use to distract, so you can make your own ruling on that (be sure to tell the player how you decide, it's a pretty important ruling). Oh, and the attack from booming blade is a part of the action that you use to cast the spell and is just as eligible for Sneak Attack as any other attack would be.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Booming blade takes 1 action to cast, it is a [Tooltip Not Found] action, and yes it does include the weapon attack as part of it. So any features/rules that have "when you take the attack action" in them don't apply. This includes 2wf.
You also might want to take a look at their spell list and make sure that it is mostly enchantment and illusion spells, AT should only know 3 spells from different schools at this point.
You're right assuming not on same turn then as i doubt the character also has an additional action like Action Surge.
Ok...just to confirm. Casting booming blade does not let them attack with the weapon as well in that action, or it does? Getting confused.
**EDIT**
I get it now. They get their spell off and it incorporates that they get to make a to-hot roll as well, but they have used their main action to do the spell.
I have checked their spells and they have chosen too many from other schools. I assume cantrips do not count for this though, so they are fine.
Yep you got it. They can only Bonus Action two weapon fighting if their Action was "Attack". But the cantrips uses a different Action type, "Cast a Spell". It does get murky with booming blade because the cantrip then has you make an attack with a weapon. But, yeah, it still isnt the Action type "Attack", so no TWF.
Sounds like he's been getting away with more than just murder, he may have snuck some warcrimes in there too.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Cantrips for an AT are pretty limited. One must be Mage Hand and they only have 3 more for a total of 4 at level 17. There are no school restrictions on cantrips. At level 17 they have only 11 spells from levels 1-3, up to 3 of the 11 can be from any school and the other 8 must be from the Illusion and Enchantment schools.
Rogues are fun and sneak attack can do a lot of damage ... but it does sound like your player is taking a few liberties.
However, even with one attack with a rapier and booming blade at level 17, the character would do d8+ 3d8 + 9d6 +4 (for magic rapier) +5 (I assume they have 20 dex) which averages to 58.5 damage. Attacking with advantage if they use mage hand legerdemain or steady aim as a bonus action which is still a decent amount of damage that will usually hit due to advantage on the attack roll. There would be an extra 4d8 if their target moved.
It won't keep up with Sharpshooter/Xbow Expert or GWM/PAM type builds but it is reasonable for most martial classes without the big damage boosting feats and bonus action attacks.
One thing I'll add that unless I missed it hasn't been mentioned: of your rogue is in melee range and is routinely trying to use their reaction for opportunity attacks to get in extra sneak attacks, then monsters can and should be hitting them. Rogues' main defensive tool is often Uncanny Dodge which is also a reaction ability, their AC shouldn't be massively high unless they also have +X studded leather armor, so there's no reason that a monster wouldn't be punishing them for staying at close range. If you aren't already, then attack them!
And you're under no obligation to have monsters move away to grant the opportunity attacks either, barring someone else using an ability that forces them to use their movement to run line for instance Dissonant Whispers.
That's a good point. Rogues don't usually like being in melee and either opt for a snipe and hide or hit and disengage strategy.
Though I imagine they must have a pretty good magic armor (they are level 17) and an AC around 19~20 (or higher if they picked up ring of protection or something). Still, CR 20 monsters shouldn't have too much issue getting a painful hit in even on that.
I don't want to start an absurd discussion, but that really wouldn't be a second sneak attack. It's just another sneak attack (your turn is over, so there's nothing to stop the sneak attack from triggering as long as its other conditions are met).
The situation with a creature disengaging was a 'baby' Nether Kraken (Homebrew creature) that had grabbed their miniaturised ship (they've been shrunk by the 'little people' to fit on their ship, the Titania!) whilst sailing on the fringes of the negative material plane. It's rare for my beasties to try and run away, but this anthropoid had bitten off more than it could chew and had bigger and easier fish to fry elsewhere...
This rogue has 25 AC. This is mainly due to having 26 dex and wearing the Armor of the Light:
Armor of the Light
The Armour of the Light is one of two ancient sets of armour made by the lost dwarves of ancient Faerun, when the Gods themselves were young. The sets were made to protect the Kings of two realms at war, helping to finally bring peace after many years. Unlike its counterpart, the Armour of Infernal Darkness, this set requires a light spell each day to see the benefits of the armour come into effect.
The mithril used to make the suit is of a special purified form of mithril, the making of which has been lost to the ages.
The armour bestows a +2 AC bonus and also increases the stats of the wearer by +3, compounded on top of other bonuses and allows the stats to go over 20.
Legend has it that should the wearers of the two armours fight, whether directly or by proxy, they will both be utterly consumed, and the armour lost forever.
Yes, it is a very powerful item.