Wish is a well-known point of debate and discussion. I have another to add to the pile.
The description of the wish spell reads:
The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect.
Alternatively, you can create one of the following effects of your choice:
You create one object of up to 25,000 gp in value that isn't a magic item. The object can be no more than 300 feet in any dimension, and it appears in an unoccupied space you can see on the ground.
You allow up to twenty creatures that you can see to regain all hit points, and you end all effects on them described in the greater restoration spell.
You grant up to ten creatures that you can see resistance to a damage type you choose.
You grant up to ten creatures you can see immunity to a single spell or other magical effect for 8 hours. For instance, you could make yourself and all your companions immune to a lich's life drain attack.
You undo a single recent event by forcing a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish spell could undo an opponent's successful save, a foe's critical hit, or a friend's failed save. You can force the reroll to be made with advantage or disadvantage, and you can choose whether to use the reroll or the original roll.
The question I have is all about that "alternatively".
Since the effects listed here are specified as alternatives to the basic use of reproducing a spell, and the paragraph that follows this section goes on to separately outline that you can accomplish anything beyond the basic use that your DM is willing to allow with the spell at the expense of incurring its stress penalty, do the specifically listed effects count as a basic use of the spell? Do they/should they incur they stress penalty?
I don't like the wording on this spell. It makes it seems like those listed options are acceptable alternatives, then goes on to say 'The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you'. Unfortunately, it is as written. If you pick one of the alternatives, such as granting up to 10 creatures a resistance to a damage type, the stress affects you.
..do the specifically listed effects count as a basic use of the spell?
Nope. The spell very clearly states what the basic use of the spell is in the first sentence you quoted: "The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower." That's the basic use, full stop.
The spell then doubles-down on the clarity when it says "The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you." so even if you did misread what is or isn't the 'basic use', the stress penalty still clearly applies if the spell does anything other than duplicating another spell.
Do they/should they incur they stress penalty?
Absolutely - the whole point of the stress penalty to make it unlikely that a character with wish can rack up a long list of advantages gained from its use, for the sake of keeping the game somewhere in the realm of balanced; you can use it to duplicate whatever other spell however many times you want because those are (presumably) all already balanced, but other uses that can have a long-lasting effects on your party's capabilities come with the hefty downside of taking damage if you cast other spells the same day and the risk of never being able to cast wish again.
Wish is a well-known point of debate and discussion. I have another to add to the pile.
The description of the wish spell reads:
The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect.
Alternatively, you can create one of the following effects of your choice:
You create one object of up to 25,000 gp in value that isn't a magic item. The object can be no more than 300 feet in any dimension, and it appears in an unoccupied space you can see on the ground.
You allow up to twenty creatures that you can see to regain all hit points, and you end all effects on them described in the greater restoration spell.
You grant up to ten creatures that you can see resistance to a damage type you choose.
You grant up to ten creatures you can see immunity to a single spell or other magical effect for 8 hours. For instance, you could make yourself and all your companions immune to a lich's life drain attack.
You undo a single recent event by forcing a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish spell could undo an opponent's successful save, a foe's critical hit, or a friend's failed save. You can force the reroll to be made with advantage or disadvantage, and you can choose whether to use the reroll or the original roll.
The question I have is all about that "alternatively".
Since the effects listed here are specified as alternatives to the basic use of reproducing a spell, and the paragraph that follows this section goes on to separately outline that you can accomplish anything beyond the basic use that your DM is willing to allow with the spell at the expense of incurring its stress penalty, do the specifically listed effects count as a basic use of the spell? Do they/should they incur they stress penalty?
You definitely suffer the stress; the "alternates" are more guidance for the Player and DM on what would be feasible to achieve without incurring a "twisted" result, but they still would invoke the stress.
The only instance a non-caster would be able to cast the wish spell would be from an item such as a luckblade or ring of three wishes; but both items are written with the expectation a character will use the spell to alter reality rather than duplicate a spell; which is unfortunate, because it means the standard presence of an item's DC isn't there.
A DM would have to determine which ability score the non-caster player would used as their spellcasting DC (Intelligence is a general go-to). The DC would be 8 + the ability score modifier + their proficiency bonus. If the resulting DC happens to be poor, then it happens to be poor; the character should have considered building their character as a spellcaster, or using their wish for something other than a spell.
A magic item, such as certain staffs, may require you to use your own spellcasting ability when you cast a spell from the item. If you have more than one spellcasting ability, you choose which one to use with the item. If you don't have a spellcasting ability - perhaps you're a rogue with the Use Magic Device feature - your spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and your proficiency bonus does apply.
So the DC would become 8 + proficiency bonus if you aren't a spellcaster.
If you use the alternatives and say get the stress penalty for gaining resistance to a damage, do you still have to roll to see if you keep the Wish spell?
If you use the alternatives and say get the stress penalty for gaining resistance to a damage, do you still have to roll to see if you keep the Wish spell?
If you use the alternatives and say get the stress penalty for gaining resistance to a damage, do you still have to roll to see if you keep the Wish spell?
Yes. The rolling to be able to cast Wish again is a part of the getting stress.
Wish: Finally, there is a 33 percent chance that you are unable to cast wish ever again if you suffer this stress.
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Wish is a well-known point of debate and discussion. I have another to add to the pile.
The description of the wish spell reads:
The question I have is all about that "alternatively".
Since the effects listed here are specified as alternatives to the basic use of reproducing a spell, and the paragraph that follows this section goes on to separately outline that you can accomplish anything beyond the basic use that your DM is willing to allow with the spell at the expense of incurring its stress penalty, do the specifically listed effects count as a basic use of the spell? Do they/should they incur they stress penalty?
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I don't like the wording on this spell. It makes it seems like those listed options are acceptable alternatives, then goes on to say 'The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you'. Unfortunately, it is as written. If you pick one of the alternatives, such as granting up to 10 creatures a resistance to a damage type, the stress affects you.
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Nope. The spell very clearly states what the basic use of the spell is in the first sentence you quoted: "The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower." That's the basic use, full stop.
The spell then doubles-down on the clarity when it says "The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you." so even if you did misread what is or isn't the 'basic use', the stress penalty still clearly applies if the spell does anything other than duplicating another spell.
Absolutely - the whole point of the stress penalty to make it unlikely that a character with wish can rack up a long list of advantages gained from its use, for the sake of keeping the game somewhere in the realm of balanced; you can use it to duplicate whatever other spell however many times you want because those are (presumably) all already balanced, but other uses that can have a long-lasting effects on your party's capabilities come with the hefty downside of taking damage if you cast other spells the same day and the risk of never being able to cast wish again.Thank you! I appreciate the help.
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Yea. This was bugging me ever since I read it. Well, there's always Simulacrum. So it all good.
You definitely suffer the stress; the "alternates" are more guidance for the Player and DM on what would be feasible to achieve without incurring a "twisted" result, but they still would invoke the stress.
If you used it to cast a spell and the one using Wish wasn't a caster so had poor DC ratings, would you up the DC?
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The only instance a non-caster would be able to cast the wish spell would be from an item such as a luckblade or ring of three wishes; but both items are written with the expectation a character will use the spell to alter reality rather than duplicate a spell; which is unfortunate, because it means the standard presence of an item's DC isn't there.
A DM would have to determine which ability score the non-caster player would used as their spellcasting DC (Intelligence is a general go-to). The DC would be 8 + the ability score modifier + their proficiency bonus. If the resulting DC happens to be poor, then it happens to be poor; the character should have considered building their character as a spellcaster, or using their wish for something other than a spell.
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From the DMG, https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/treasure#ActivatinganItem
So the DC would become 8 + proficiency bonus if you aren't a spellcaster.
If you use the alternatives and say get the stress penalty for gaining resistance to a damage, do you still have to roll to see if you keep the Wish spell?
Yes.
Yes. The rolling to be able to cast Wish again is a part of the getting stress.
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