context: my group is fighting a dragon and a small handful of minions, dragon in front of the group, minions behind
one of my players got feared on the dragons frightful presence ability so he asked, if i turn my back to the dragon to fight the minions thats behind me, would the disadvantage from being feared still apply seeing as the source of my fear is out of my sight range?
in the moment i ruled yes but informed them id double check on the forums, so fellow DMs, what are your thoughts on this?
Line of Sight has a very specific definition that doesn't not depend on the direction you are facing, just that an obscured line exists between the two squares of the creatures/objects in question: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/running-the-game#LineofSight
The justification/role-play reason for this would be something to do with the psychology of knowing that it can see you, whether or not you yourself happen to be facing it at the moment.
Ah yes, the good old "if I don't look at the fire I won't be afraid of getting burned while standing in it" argument.
That is a very metagame-y request that just doesn't make sense narratively or mechanically. The important mechanical bit is that all creatures are treated as if they are constantly looking around in battle. If you want to homebrew otherwise then you can say that an attack from any enemy other than the targeted enemy has advantage due to the PC focusing on not looking around and seeing the dragon making them unseen attackers. Which is probably worse.
TL;DR : The character has disadvantage on attack rolls no matter which way they face as long as there is an unobstructed line along which the character could see the dragon and the dragon could see the character.
There are two concepts here. Seeing a creature and line of sight. Line of sight does not depend on the creature's senses. It is two way. A character could see the dragon, the dragon could see the character. That is line of sight. If something is in the way then neither can see the other and there is no line of sight. Note: Line of Sight is literally a line between two points along which anyone would be able to see from one point to the other point. The senses of an individual creature doesn't affect whether a line of sight exists or not.
Some effects in the game depend on the target being able to see the creature and other effects depend on line of sight. Seeing is affected by whether you open or close your eyes or which direction you look. Line of sight is not. Frightened does not say "Your" or "the character's" line of sight - it simply refers to being within line of sight which can easily be interpreted as the dragon being able to see the character as well as the character being able to see the dragon.
A DM could decide to interpret line of sight to mean being able to see but that is sort of like saying - "If I don't look at the monster then maybe it isn't really there and won't hurt me". Does any adventurer really believe that? Put a solid wall between them or otherwise break the line of sight (throw up a fog cloud for example) and then the first element of the frightened effect goes away - but they still can't move any closer to the source of their fear - they KNOW the dragon is over in that direction, they won't move that way even if they can't see it any more.
Anyway, I run line of sight as meaning COULD either of the creatures see each other - then there is line of sight. In your example, there is line of sight no matter which direction the character chooses to face. Line of sight is not broken by closing your eyes.
P.S. For comparison, both basilisk and medusa abilities do not refer to line of sight, they refer to the creatures seeing each other or one creature seeing the other - seeing can be prevented by closing your eyes but in both these cases there is still a line of sight between the two.
"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you."
Frightened
A frightened creature has disadvantage on ability checks and attack rolls while the source of its fear is within line of sight.
The creature can't willingly move closer to the source of its fear.
DM: OK, you failed your saving throw. You are frightened of the dragon
"Clever" Player: Well then, I turn my back to it and go attack its minions. Now it's not in line of sight, so I won't get the penalty for being frightened, right?
DM: (narrowing eyes at player) You turn around to face the gargoyles flying down toward you. The hairs on the back of your neck stand up. You can't see the dragon, but you know it's still there, can feel its presence in your bones. The enraged, titanic bringer of fire and death is behind you now. Despite your attempts to focus on the threat in front of you, your ears pick up the sound of the dragon's claws scraping against the stone as it moves, and your skin crawls from the force of the wind as it shifts its mighty wings. Oh Gods, IS IT COMING CLOSER???
You are still frightened
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
context: my group is fighting a dragon and a small handful of minions, dragon in front of the group, minions behind
one of my players got feared on the dragons frightful presence ability so he asked, if i turn my back to the dragon to fight the minions thats behind me, would the disadvantage from being feared still apply seeing as the source of my fear is out of my sight range?
in the moment i ruled yes but informed them id double check on the forums, so fellow DMs, what are your thoughts on this?
Line of Sight has a very specific definition that doesn't not depend on the direction you are facing, just that an obscured line exists between the two squares of the creatures/objects in question: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/running-the-game#LineofSight
Players who play on YouTube have their character close their eyes to avoid such adverse conditions even if it means taking the disadvantage penalty.
Cannot help but wonder, "why not flee?"
The justification/role-play reason for this would be something to do with the psychology of knowing that it can see you, whether or not you yourself happen to be facing it at the moment.
Ah yes, the good old "if I don't look at the fire I won't be afraid of getting burned while standing in it" argument.
That is a very metagame-y request that just doesn't make sense narratively or mechanically. The important mechanical bit is that all creatures are treated as if they are constantly looking around in battle. If you want to homebrew otherwise then you can say that an attack from any enemy other than the targeted enemy has advantage due to the PC focusing on not looking around and seeing the dragon making them unseen attackers. Which is probably worse.
TL;DR : The character has disadvantage on attack rolls no matter which way they face as long as there is an unobstructed line along which the character could see the dragon and the dragon could see the character.
There are two concepts here. Seeing a creature and line of sight. Line of sight does not depend on the creature's senses. It is two way. A character could see the dragon, the dragon could see the character. That is line of sight. If something is in the way then neither can see the other and there is no line of sight. Note: Line of Sight is literally a line between two points along which anyone would be able to see from one point to the other point. The senses of an individual creature doesn't affect whether a line of sight exists or not.
Some effects in the game depend on the target being able to see the creature and other effects depend on line of sight. Seeing is affected by whether you open or close your eyes or which direction you look. Line of sight is not. Frightened does not say "Your" or "the character's" line of sight - it simply refers to being within line of sight which can easily be interpreted as the dragon being able to see the character as well as the character being able to see the dragon.
A DM could decide to interpret line of sight to mean being able to see but that is sort of like saying - "If I don't look at the monster then maybe it isn't really there and won't hurt me". Does any adventurer really believe that? Put a solid wall between them or otherwise break the line of sight (throw up a fog cloud for example) and then the first element of the frightened effect goes away - but they still can't move any closer to the source of their fear - they KNOW the dragon is over in that direction, they won't move that way even if they can't see it any more.
Anyway, I run line of sight as meaning COULD either of the creatures see each other - then there is line of sight. In your example, there is line of sight no matter which direction the character chooses to face. Line of sight is not broken by closing your eyes.
P.S. For comparison, both basilisk and medusa abilities do not refer to line of sight, they refer to the creatures seeing each other or one creature seeing the other - seeing can be prevented by closing your eyes but in both these cases there is still a line of sight between the two.
"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you."
Frightened
DM: OK, you failed your saving throw. You are frightened of the dragon
"Clever" Player: Well then, I turn my back to it and go attack its minions. Now it's not in line of sight, so I won't get the penalty for being frightened, right?
DM: (narrowing eyes at player) You turn around to face the gargoyles flying down toward you. The hairs on the back of your neck stand up. You can't see the dragon, but you know it's still there, can feel its presence in your bones. The enraged, titanic bringer of fire and death is behind you now. Despite your attempts to focus on the threat in front of you, your ears pick up the sound of the dragon's claws scraping against the stone as it moves, and your skin crawls from the force of the wind as it shifts its mighty wings. Oh Gods, IS IT COMING CLOSER???
You are still frightened
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
this all has been very helpful thank you everyone