Hey there! I am currently playing Candlekeep Mysteries with my group and we just got to the 2nd adventure of the book. I was going through the wererat encounter and planned on having the giant rats surprise the party. The rats were going attack the two melee fighters of our group with surprise, but our ranger has the alert feat. He asked if he could warn the party since he has that feature. At first, I asserted that he himself couldn't be surprised, however, it doesn't mean that the rest of the party cannot be under the surprise effect. But after talking to the party, I wasn't sure of that anymore so I allowed the ranger to alert the other party members of what was going on (which ended the surprise factor.) I looked over the alert feature again and I am still not certain since I would rule yelling as a reaction rather than an action. Therefore, how would you guys rule the alert feature in this instance? Thank you so much in advance. :>
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends."
This takes place before anyone takes their turn so any PC (except the ranger) whose passive perception is lower than the wererat's stealth is surprised so they can not move or take an action on their first turn of the combat or take reactions until that turn ends. Therefore there is nothing the Ranger can do about it.
In Actual Gameplay
Going RAW is fine, but as DM you can do something else. The ranger can "communicate however you are able, through brief utterances and gestures, as you take your turn." This does not take an action and you could decide that if theranger goes before the rest of the party in initiative and shouts "look out" then it would be logical for the surprised condition to end on them. This is not how the rules are written however.
The feat doesn’t say either way, so the real question is the initiative rolls. If the PC goes first then yes, by virtue of the alert feat they see the ambush before the foes can spring it and the PC can alert the party. Then the question becomes the order of initiatives between the party members and the foes. Any party members that go before any of the foes would not be surprised because of the warning. Any party members that go after all the foes would be fully surprised despite the warning (they couldn’t react fast enough because of the shock of the surprise) in between is a mashup party members are surprised by foes that go before them but not by foes that go after them in the order. If the ranger goes after any of the foes despite the +5 of the initiative then I would rule that the rest of the party is surprised.
Honestly I would run it like Wi1dBi11. Have them roll initiative, If the on what has the alert feat goes first then they can yell out giving the folks there turn. If they go after the monsters then well they noticed the attack incoming but didn't have enough time in those 6 seconds to say something. Maybe there were surprised at the sight of how many monsters.... Or maybe they didn't get surprised but was dumbfounded that the melee did so they didnt get a chance to say something.... ETC
Surprise is s determined at the start of the encounter before initiative is rolled and turns are taken and while you can't be surprised while you are conscious, this only affect you and others may be subject to it.
RAW says that the DM determines who might be surprised. So as DM you can take measure of the situation and decide if any or all of the players are surprised and how much the ranger's feat might count.
Reading the "Alert" feat, I would say that in most circumstances it doesn't let the ranger alert others if the Ranger hasn't picked up the threat before the attack. If the ranger, or any other player, has a passive perception that picks up the hidden ambushers or are making active checks each round that pick up the ambush before it happens they can absolutely give indication to the party in advance. But the Alert feat doesn't mean you spot the ambush coming, it's much more about always being prepared to act when ambushed. Attackers might jump out of cover and charge immediately into melee combat for instance. The Players don't need to be told there's an ambush, they have hostiles charging at them, they know, they have simply been caught flat-footed in surprise.
However, creatures can also surprise and fire on players while hidden, giving them not only a surprise round but advantage. In this circumstance, the Ranger might get a turn in the surprise round where they go before some or all of the hidden attackers. The ranger might then make an active perception roll for their turn to actively scan the cover or even move to see attackers hidden in or behind it. Once they do that they can do a quick call out to their comrades where the attackers are hidden. This means the rest of the party is still surprised but likely aware of the attacker's hidden location, possibly nullifying their advantage to attack that round.
Note that with the DM deciding if players are surprised or not, it might not merely be about passive perception. The players could be returning to their rooms from a tavern, travelling at a fast pace between locations or watching a nymph bathe when attacked without warning. But they might also be walking through a scary forest that has them constantly on edge and at the ready which could be judged by the DM to null any surprise attempt. This also means that a DM could judge a particular situation as causing surprise even for a character with the "Alert" feat. For instance, the DM might have a raptor ahead of the group, tapdancing while wearing a blonde wig in the middle of the path and have the players roll insight against it's performance to determine if they see it as a distraction or are caught in surprise and only have enough time to say "clever girl" as 6 raptors rush them from each side. Even with the Alert feat the DM can make the ultimate call that the distraction did it's job.
This also means that a DM could judge a particular situation as causing surprise even for a character with the "Alert" feat. For instance, the DM might have a raptor ahead of the group, tapdancing while wearing a blonde wig in the middle of the path and have the players roll insight against it's performance to determine if they see it as a distraction or are caught in surprise and only have enough time to say "clever girl" as 6 raptors rush them from each side. Even with the Alert feat the DM can make the ultimate call that the distraction did it's job.
The DM can do anything but they need to be vary careful with things like that. If a player invests a feat so their character "can't be surprised while you are conscious" they are likely to be very upset to be told that the feat is actually "they can sometimes avoid being surprised while concious" quite likey to the point that the game is not enjoyable for them. The first rule of D&D is it should be fun for everyone at the table.
I think that the players should be aware of any homebrew and optional rules in advance then if the player knows that the DM has nerfed the alert feat from RAW they can choose whether to take it or not knowing what it actually does.
I'm thinking you can alert the rest of the party, of course, but if they are surprised, they remain surprised until the first round of combat plays out. There just isn't enough time between the alert and the end of the first round for them to no longer be surprised.
I'd say you should be wary about being too lenient with what the unsurprised character can do; they are the one that took the Alert feat, not the whole party, so only the one with the Alert feat should get to ignore the surprised condition.
However the party should be encouraged to think about this when they make plans; like when you're having someone keep watch or stand guard or whatever, the one with Alert makes sense because they've got more chance of raising the alarm rather than being ambushed and silenced instead.
It being combined with a full +5 to Initiative gives them a pretty good chance of going early in the first round as well.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
All Alert does is allow the character with the Alert feat to not be surprised at the start of combat.
If you want the Ranger to be able to warn others, ask what you would do for a normal surprise situation.
The DM determines who is surprised in the first round of combat. If stealth is greater than passive perception then the creature is surprised, otherwise not. You can get both NPCs and PCs surprised in this scenario. For creatures that are NOT surprised. Would you allow these PCs or NPCs to shout out and warn the rest of their side, negating surprise for the rest of their side? Would this shout also alert anyone on BOTH sides and thus prevent surprise for all creatures in the combat? If you would allow this for a normal surprise scenario then go ahead and rule that the Ranger can warn others and thus end their surprised status. However, if a non-surprised creature in a regular combat can't warn other characters, why should the Ranger be allowed to do so?
All Alert does is ensure that the Ranger isn't surprised - as if their passive perception is always high enough to notice trouble when it starts to happen. That's all. RAW, it doesn't give any special ability to warn others and stop them from being surprised.
So if you would allow anyone to warn others then allow it for the Ranger, if you would not, then don't allow it for the Ranger.
I'd say you should be wary about being too lenient with what the unsurprised character can do; they are the one that took the Alert feat, not the whole party, so only the one with the Alert feat should get to ignore the surprised condition.
I agree with you, but I come at it from the other direction. I would say the alert PC can do whatever they want. I would be wary about being too lenient with what the alert PC can enable the surprised PCs to do. I'm not aware of any general or specific rule that allows a surprised character to overcome surprise sooner than their second turn.
I'd say you should be wary about being too lenient with what the unsurprised character can do; they are the one that took the Alert feat, not the whole party, so only the one with the Alert feat should get to ignore the surprised condition.
I agree with you, but I come at it from the other direction. I would say the alert PC can do whatever they want. I would be wary about being too lenient with what the alert PC can enable the surprised PCs to do. I'm not aware of any general or specific rule that allows a surprised character to overcome surprise sooner than their second turn.
Very technically speaking, nothing in the rules say when surprise ends. I'm not sure it ever does to be honest. It isn't a condition in that sense. The only mechanical effect of surprise triggers on the first round of the encounter. So the fact you were/are surprised doesn't truly need an expiry.
Any character that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends.
So it tells you what happens when the encounter starts while you're surprised: No do stuff on 1st turn. But it remains silent on "ending" surprise. Mechanically, there is no reason to need to know that (by default, anyway, weird stuff happens with assassins).
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Probably because I am doing neither. I am expanding on and explaining more on your last point. How you were unsure if anything can end surprise early. As it turns out, surprise doesn't particularly even end. So the sentiment is moot.
You cannot "Overcome surprise" sooner than your second turn. You cannot "overcome surprise" after your second turn either. Surprise doesn't ever really end. You either are surprised at the start of an encounter or you're not. But it has no expiry. No means to end it, and nothing would particularly happen even if you did somehow end it. Because if you were surprised at the start of combat then you take no actions on the first turn. Even if you somehow stopped being surprised by your turn, you still already were surprised at the start of combat.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
A surprised creature stops being surprised at the end of its first turn in combat so this is when it officially ends.
This is a fine homebrew solution, the rules themselves don't say when surprise ends.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
A surprised creature stops being surprised at the end of its first turn in combat so this is when it officially ends.
This is a fine homebrew solution, the rules themselves don't say when surprise ends.
The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Hey there! I am currently playing Candlekeep Mysteries with my group and we just got to the 2nd adventure of the book. I was going through the wererat encounter and planned on having the giant rats surprise the party. The rats were going attack the two melee fighters of our group with surprise, but our ranger has the alert feat. He asked if he could warn the party since he has that feature. At first, I asserted that he himself couldn't be surprised, however, it doesn't mean that the rest of the party cannot be under the surprise effect. But after talking to the party, I wasn't sure of that anymore so I allowed the ranger to alert the other party members of what was going on (which ended the surprise factor.) I looked over the alert feature again and I am still not certain since I would rule yelling as a reaction rather than an action. Therefore, how would you guys rule the alert feature in this instance? Thank you so much in advance. :>
RAW
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends."
This takes place before anyone takes their turn so any PC (except the ranger) whose passive perception is lower than the wererat's stealth is surprised so they can not move or take an action on their first turn of the combat or take reactions until that turn ends. Therefore there is nothing the Ranger can do about it.
In Actual Gameplay
Going RAW is fine, but as DM you can do something else. The ranger can "communicate however you are able, through brief utterances and gestures, as you take your turn." This does not take an action and you could decide that if theranger goes before the rest of the party in initiative and shouts "look out" then it would be logical for the surprised condition to end on them. This is not how the rules are written however.
The feat doesn’t say either way, so the real question is the initiative rolls. If the PC goes first then yes, by virtue of the alert feat they see the ambush before the foes can spring it and the PC can alert the party. Then the question becomes the order of initiatives between the party members and the foes. Any party members that go before any of the foes would not be surprised because of the warning. Any party members that go after all the foes would be fully surprised despite the warning (they couldn’t react fast enough because of the shock of the surprise) in between is a mashup party members are surprised by foes that go before them but not by foes that go after them in the order.
If the ranger goes after any of the foes despite the +5 of the initiative then I would rule that the rest of the party is surprised.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Honestly I would run it like Wi1dBi11. Have them roll initiative, If the on what has the alert feat goes first then they can yell out giving the folks there turn. If they go after the monsters then well they noticed the attack incoming but didn't have enough time in those 6 seconds to say something. Maybe there were surprised at the sight of how many monsters.... Or maybe they didn't get surprised but was dumbfounded that the melee did so they didnt get a chance to say something.... ETC
Surprise is s determined at the start of the encounter before initiative is rolled and turns are taken and while you can't be surprised while you are conscious, this only affect you and others may be subject to it.
RAW says that the DM determines who might be surprised. So as DM you can take measure of the situation and decide if any or all of the players are surprised and how much the ranger's feat might count.
Reading the "Alert" feat, I would say that in most circumstances it doesn't let the ranger alert others if the Ranger hasn't picked up the threat before the attack. If the ranger, or any other player, has a passive perception that picks up the hidden ambushers or are making active checks each round that pick up the ambush before it happens they can absolutely give indication to the party in advance. But the Alert feat doesn't mean you spot the ambush coming, it's much more about always being prepared to act when ambushed. Attackers might jump out of cover and charge immediately into melee combat for instance. The Players don't need to be told there's an ambush, they have hostiles charging at them, they know, they have simply been caught flat-footed in surprise.
However, creatures can also surprise and fire on players while hidden, giving them not only a surprise round but advantage. In this circumstance, the Ranger might get a turn in the surprise round where they go before some or all of the hidden attackers. The ranger might then make an active perception roll for their turn to actively scan the cover or even move to see attackers hidden in or behind it. Once they do that they can do a quick call out to their comrades where the attackers are hidden. This means the rest of the party is still surprised but likely aware of the attacker's hidden location, possibly nullifying their advantage to attack that round.
Note that with the DM deciding if players are surprised or not, it might not merely be about passive perception. The players could be returning to their rooms from a tavern, travelling at a fast pace between locations or watching a nymph bathe when attacked without warning. But they might also be walking through a scary forest that has them constantly on edge and at the ready which could be judged by the DM to null any surprise attempt. This also means that a DM could judge a particular situation as causing surprise even for a character with the "Alert" feat. For instance, the DM might have a raptor ahead of the group, tapdancing while wearing a blonde wig in the middle of the path and have the players roll insight against it's performance to determine if they see it as a distraction or are caught in surprise and only have enough time to say "clever girl" as 6 raptors rush them from each side. Even with the Alert feat the DM can make the ultimate call that the distraction did it's job.
The DM can do anything but they need to be vary careful with things like that. If a player invests a feat so their character "can't be surprised while you are conscious" they are likely to be very upset to be told that the feat is actually "they can sometimes avoid being surprised while concious" quite likey to the point that the game is not enjoyable for them. The first rule of D&D is it should be fun for everyone at the table.
I think that the players should be aware of any homebrew and optional rules in advance then if the player knows that the DM has nerfed the alert feat from RAW they can choose whether to take it or not knowing what it actually does.
I'm thinking you can alert the rest of the party, of course, but if they are surprised, they remain surprised until the first round of combat plays out. There just isn't enough time between the alert and the end of the first round for them to no longer be surprised.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I'd say you should be wary about being too lenient with what the unsurprised character can do; they are the one that took the Alert feat, not the whole party, so only the one with the Alert feat should get to ignore the surprised condition.
However the party should be encouraged to think about this when they make plans; like when you're having someone keep watch or stand guard or whatever, the one with Alert makes sense because they've got more chance of raising the alarm rather than being ambushed and silenced instead.
It being combined with a full +5 to Initiative gives them a pretty good chance of going early in the first round as well.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
All Alert does is allow the character with the Alert feat to not be surprised at the start of combat.
If you want the Ranger to be able to warn others, ask what you would do for a normal surprise situation.
The DM determines who is surprised in the first round of combat. If stealth is greater than passive perception then the creature is surprised, otherwise not. You can get both NPCs and PCs surprised in this scenario. For creatures that are NOT surprised. Would you allow these PCs or NPCs to shout out and warn the rest of their side, negating surprise for the rest of their side? Would this shout also alert anyone on BOTH sides and thus prevent surprise for all creatures in the combat? If you would allow this for a normal surprise scenario then go ahead and rule that the Ranger can warn others and thus end their surprised status. However, if a non-surprised creature in a regular combat can't warn other characters, why should the Ranger be allowed to do so?
All Alert does is ensure that the Ranger isn't surprised - as if their passive perception is always high enough to notice trouble when it starts to happen. That's all. RAW, it doesn't give any special ability to warn others and stop them from being surprised.
So if you would allow anyone to warn others then allow it for the Ranger, if you would not, then don't allow it for the Ranger.
I agree with you, but I come at it from the other direction. I would say the alert PC can do whatever they want. I would be wary about being too lenient with what the alert PC can enable the surprised PCs to do. I'm not aware of any general or specific rule that allows a surprised character to overcome surprise sooner than their second turn.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Very technically speaking, nothing in the rules say when surprise ends. I'm not sure it ever does to be honest. It isn't a condition in that sense. The only mechanical effect of surprise triggers on the first round of the encounter. So the fact you were/are surprised doesn't truly need an expiry.
Any character that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends.
So it tells you what happens when the encounter starts while you're surprised: No do stuff on 1st turn. But it remains silent on "ending" surprise. Mechanically, there is no reason to need to know that (by default, anyway, weird stuff happens with assassins).
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with the post you quoted.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Probably because I am doing neither. I am expanding on and explaining more on your last point. How you were unsure if anything can end surprise early. As it turns out, surprise doesn't particularly even end. So the sentiment is moot.
You cannot "Overcome surprise" sooner than your second turn. You cannot "overcome surprise" after your second turn either. Surprise doesn't ever really end. You either are surprised at the start of an encounter or you're not. But it has no expiry. No means to end it, and nothing would particularly happen even if you did somehow end it. Because if you were surprised at the start of combat then you take no actions on the first turn. Even if you somehow stopped being surprised by your turn, you still already were surprised at the start of combat.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
A surprised creature stops being surprised at the end of its first turn in combat so this is when it officially ends.
This is a fine homebrew solution, the rules themselves don't say when surprise ends.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
its not my homebrew solution its Official ruling from Sage Advice Compendium.
To your point:
"Not all those who wander are lost"