A dwarf Fighter is feigning being battered and bruised to get two Bugbears to check on him.
A Warlock/Paladin is hiding in a nook in a tunnel just south of a T-junction. He rolls a 21 on their Stealth/Hiding check.
At the T-junction, the two Bugbears walk past, not noticing the Warlock/Paladin to the south, failing the Passive Perception check, with their attention on the dwarf.
Once the Bugbears stop at the dwarf to inspect him, the Warlock/Paladin wants to sneak up behind and attack.
Question:
At the time in the game, I asked for a second Stealth check since the hiding was one action, and moving down the passage, I viewed a second action. I'm basing that ruling off of the PHB entry on Hiding in Chapter 7:
"The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check’s total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence."
Does the Warlock/Paladin need to make another Stealth check to determine if he can leave the nook and creep up the passage to get behind the Bugbears without being detected, or is the original Stealth check still active?
What I believe happens next is with the Warlock/Paladin hostile intent, Initiative would be rolled, and Suprise would be applied to the Bugbears given if the Stealth check beats out the Passive Perception. Or so I believe, but I am not sure Suprise applied, given the Bugbears attention is on the dwarf.
I only call for an additional stealth check if something is done that might reveal the character's position. So you could call for a separate stealth check for sneaking out, but if there's no particular challenges likely to spoil the stealth (dry-brittle bones littering the floor, a puddle to splash through, a light source that would cast a shadow where the Bugbears can see it, etc) then I wouldn't call for the additional stealth roll.
As soon as the warlock/paladin starts moving, then they are no longer hidden. If they used a ranged attack, then they would still get the element of surprise, but having to cross some open ground then the hide is lost.
You are correct that initiative is rolled before any attack.
As soon as the warlock/paladin starts moving, then they are no longer hidden. If they used a ranged attack, then they would still get the element of surprise, but having to cross some open ground then the hide is lost.
You are correct that initiative is rolled before any attack.
You're forgetting that sneaking exists. Charging out would break stealth, but if the character is moving half speed to specifically sneak, then they're still hidden until an enemy passes the check to see them. Remember the context, the Bugbears already passed the Warlock/Paladin, so the latter is approaching them from behind, and there's not other enemies to see the Warlock/Paladin.
If the hidden creature starts moving to a space where it can be seen, it's no longer hidden, unless the DM determine that nearby creatures are too distracted to spot it somehow.
Does the Warlock/Paladin need to make another Stealth check to determine if he can leave the nook and creep up the passage to get behind the Bugbears without being detected, or is the original Stealth check still active?
What I believe happens next is with the Warlock/Paladin hostile intent, Initiative would be rolled, and Suprise would be applied to the Bugbears given if the Stealth check beats out the Passive Perception. Or so I believe, but I am not sure Suprise applied, given the Bugbears attention is on the dwarf.
In such case as DM i wouldn't ask for another Dexterity (Stealth) check from the Warlock since you make one until you are discovered or you stop hiding. The Bugbears would immediately spot the Warlock upon coming into line of sight and therefore wouldn't be surprised because they noticed a threat at the start of the encounter. Even if they'd failed to notice the Warlock the Bugbears still wouldn't be surprised because you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares, and here the Dwarf is not hidden.
I will let the rogue pop out of his hiding spot without moving to fire a crossbow unseen at the enemy. But if he wants to come out of cover to step up to the enemy and stab them, he is not an unseen attacker.
If the Warlock/Paladin had cast Eldritch Blast his hiding spot, I would have given him Advantage, but since he moved away and had to traverse 20 feet, I made him do a second roll. What I understand from this conversation is that even with the Bugbear's focus on the dwarf and their backs turned to the Warlock/Paladin, the surprise would not be granted.
Given the situation again, I was thinking of giving the Warlock/Paladin advantage on his initiative roll if he could successfully sneak up on the Bugbears. I know my players grumble about not getting a free attack or first attack on creatures when they are correctly set up.
The other posters have described the rules application.
Rule of cool, I would let the surprise happen if the players invested in selling the distraction. Its just some bugbears, probably not the bbeg of the fight.
You're forgetting that sneaking exists. Charging out would break stealth, but if the character is moving half speed to specifically sneak, then they're still hidden until an enemy passes the check to see them. Remember the context, the Bugbears already passed the Warlock/Paladin, so the latter is approaching them from behind, and there's not other enemies to see the Warlock/Paladin.
This sort of "sneaking" doesn't exist in 5E.
There is no facing in 5E, since folks in wary situations are assumed to be keeping an eye out all around them (scanning the area).
While traveling at a slow pace, the characters can move stealthily. As long as they’re not in the open, they can try to surprise or sneak by other creatures they encounter.
You're forgetting that sneaking exists. Charging out would break stealth, but if the character is moving half speed to specifically sneak, then they're still hidden until an enemy passes the check to see them. Remember the context, the Bugbears already passed the Warlock/Paladin, so the latter is approaching them from behind, and there's not other enemies to see the Warlock/Paladin.
This sort of "sneaking" doesn't exist in 5E.
There is no facing in 5E, since folks in wary situations are assumed to be keeping an eye out all around them (scanning the area).
While traveling at a slow pace, the characters can move stealthily. As long as they’re not in the open, they can try to surprise or sneak by other creatures they encounter.
(emphasis mine)
Dungeon Master's Guide, pg 4
as the referee, the DM interprets the rules and decides when to abide by them and when to change them.
The rules exist to facilitate the storytelling between the DM and players, and even the rulebooks themselves specifically say that the DM is the final arbiter on the rules, not the rulebooks. This situation is a case of the DM applying common sense. The text specifying "not in the open" means not where there's no plausible change of not being seen. When the only potential observers are instead focused on a distraction the opposite direction, the sneaking character is effectively not in the open relative to the potential observers. As such, the characters making a stealth check vs the opponents' passive perception is completely reasonable, far more so than having all enemies omnisciently detect every creature behind them as you're suggesting.
As soon as the warlock/paladin starts moving, then they are no longer hidden. If they used a ranged attack, then they would still get the element of surprise, but having to cross some open ground then the hide is lost.
You are correct that initiative is rolled before any attack.
You're forgetting that sneaking exists. Charging out would break stealth, but if the character is moving half speed to specifically sneak, then they're still hidden until an enemy passes the check to see them. Remember the context, the Bugbears already passed the Warlock/Paladin, so the latter is approaching them from behind, and there's not other enemies to see the Warlock/Paladin.
"Sneaking" doesn't appear to be well defined in 5e as a mechanic (compared to "hiding") and is only mentioned in a few places. In the PHB, the only places that I see it are:
So a character who has proficiency in the Stealth skill is particularly good at Dexterity checks related to sneaking and hiding. (174)
Stealth. Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you attempt to conceal yourself from enemies, slink past guards, slip away without being noticed or sneak up on someone without being seen or heard. (177)
Swimming across a rushing river, sneaking down a dungeon corridor, scaling a treacherous mountain slope -- all sorts of movement play a key role in D&D adventures. (181)
A slow pace makes it possible to sneak around and to search an area more carefully. (181)
While travelling at a slow pace, the characters can move stealthily. As long as they're not in the open, they can try to surprise or sneak by other creatures they encounter. (182)
. . . stealthy characters moving slowly might be able to sneak past enemies that clumsier characters would alert. (183)
[Surprise Example] A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp, springing from the trees to attack them.
. . . and that's about it. But, I do find it interesting that one of these examples used the phrase "sneak up on someone without being seen or heard", which is pretty much the definition of "hidden" from Chapter 9:
If you are hidden--both unseen and unheard--when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
The implication is that in order to sneak up on someone, you must first be hidden. Or, at the very least you are "unnoticed" (the enemy is "unaware" of you) or "not yet noticed". However, there is also the rule that under most normal circumstances both parties notice each other at the same time if neither is already trying to use stealth. So, one of the main ways to notice a creature and still have the opportunity to sneak up behind it is to be hidden.
But now there are a bunch of points about hiding from Chapter 7 to make note of:
. . . The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding.
. . . Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
. . . In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you.
. . . However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.
. . . Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching.
Given all of this information, I believe the OP handled the situation exactly correctly. In most cases there really has to be two stealth checks here. On one hand, it's mentioned that a DM might "allow you to stay hidden" situationally -- if an enemy is so distracted that the DM is basically deciding that his attempt to be stealthy has no chance to fail -- no roll required. But in my opinion, most of the time we should be mindful of the fact that the character "stopped hiding / came out of hiding" to approach the creature from behind. And yet, we are not "in combat" (yet), so maybe the enemy's guard is down as compared to if it was actively in a fight? Still, I vote for 2 stealth rolls here. One for hiding, which gives the opportunity to sneak up behind an unsuspecting enemy, the second roll to actually execute the act of sneaking without now being noticed. Note that advantage on the attack roll would be given due to being an unseen attacker, not due to being hidden or due to sneaking.
Lastly, regarding the possible "surprise". I think that the presence of the dwarf does not automatically disqualify the situation from being a surprise attack. The dwarf is pretending to be unthreatening. Now, in that scenario I do think that it's appropriate to have the dwarf roll some sort of Performance check or something to see how the Bugbear reacts to seeing the dwarf -- is he very suspicious that something isn't right and immediately goes on high alert? (No surprise) Or, does he "fall for it" and approach the dwarf in a totally relaxed manner as if there is no threat at all (possible surprise attack). Perhaps if the player roleplays well and describes exactly how he is tricking the Bugbear in a clever way he can gain advantage on performance or be granted auto-success.
Also, if having to make 2 stealth rolls seems too difficult, remember that one of the examples above implies that you could simply jump out of a hidden position and charge the enemy and you might still be granted surprise for this. However, in that case you would not be an "unseen attacker" so you would not be attacking with advantage (and so a single rogue would not get to use their sneak attack, etc) even though you would get surprise. Or you could initiate combat by attacking at range with surprise and advantage and potentially do less base damage. So there are pros and cons and a genuine choice to make. If you don't require the 2nd stealth roll in the OP I think the players gain too much by choosing to sneak after hiding.
I don't think you need to make another Dexterity (Stealth) check to sneak or move silently while you are hidden since you are already unseen and unheard, with a Stealth score to contest with the Passive Perception of any creature that could perceive you.
as the referee, the DM interprets the rules and decides when to abide by them and when to change them.
The rules exist to facilitate the storytelling between the DM and players, and even the rulebooks themselves specifically say that the DM is the final arbiter on the rules, not the rulebooks. This situation is a case of the DM applying common sense. The text specifying "not in the open" means not where there's no plausible change of not being seen. When the only potential observers are instead focused on a distraction the opposite direction, the sneaking character is effectively not in the open relative to the potential observers. As such, the characters making a stealth check vs the opponents' passive perception is completely reasonable, far more so than having all enemies omnisciently detect every creature behind them as you're suggesting.
The section about the DM being able to do anything always applies to every single rule, so it isn't worth mentioning in this particular forum which generally considers the RAW of the situation rather than DM fiat.
Also, see my other comments in the same section about "facing" being only an optional rule. The rules assume that everybody is aware and looking around them (thus flanking is only an optional rule too).
as the referee, the DM interprets the rules and decides when to abide by them and when to change them.
The rules exist to facilitate the storytelling between the DM and players, and even the rulebooks themselves specifically say that the DM is the final arbiter on the rules, not the rulebooks. This situation is a case of the DM applying common sense. The text specifying "not in the open" means not where there's no plausible change of not being seen. When the only potential observers are instead focused on a distraction the opposite direction, the sneaking character is effectively not in the open relative to the potential observers. As such, the characters making a stealth check vs the opponents' passive perception is completely reasonable, far more so than having all enemies omnisciently detect every creature behind them as you're suggesting.
The section about the DM being able to do anything always applies to every single rule, so it isn't worth mentioning in this particular forum which generally considers the RAW of the situation rather than DM fiat.
Also, see my other comments in the same section about "facing" being only an optional rule. The rules assume that everybody is aware and looking around them (thus flanking is only an optional rule too).
The rules about facing and detecting anyone in the open are more for active combat. Having NPC’s have a perfect omnidirectional awareness of their surroundings at all times would make Stealth fairly useless. Until initiative is rolled, I’d say the DMG bit “If neither side is being stealthy, creatures automatically notice each other once they are within sight or hearing range of one another. Otherwise, compare the Dexterity (Stealth) check results of the creatures in the group that is hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the other group, as explained in the Player’s Handbook.” indicates that a player can attempt to come up behind enemies unnoticed if the DM agrees it’s plausible.
Well, if you take attempt to come up behind enemies as hiding then yes. But i don't think it meet the criterias unless it's distracted to the point of not seeing you openly coming since normally you can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly...
How can they see you clearly if you’re behind them? Constantly having omnidirectional sight on just nerfs stealth to near uselessness; outside of combat it’s a DM’s call where NPC’s are looking.
How can they see you clearly if you’re behind them? Constantly having omnidirectional sight on just nerfs stealth to near uselessness; outside of combat it’s a DM’s call where NPC’s are looking.
Stealth is about moving quietly whilst out of sight - e.g. behind cover.
How can they see you clearly if you’re behind them? Constantly having omnidirectional sight on just nerfs stealth to near uselessness; outside of combat it’s a DM’s call where NPC’s are looking.
Stealth is about moving quietly whilst out of sight - e.g. behind cover.
Behind someone is also out of their sight. Again, the constant 360 awareness is for combat, and it's more just a handwave to justify the overhead view players will have of the map.
How can they see you clearly if you’re behind them? Constantly having omnidirectional sight on just nerfs stealth to near uselessness; outside of combat it’s a DM’s call where NPC’s are looking.
While the rules are much more defined for combat purposes, DM can always can rule that;
You normally can see all around you unless distracted somehow.
OR
You don't normally see all around you unless you're in combat.
In the case I outlined, the Bugbears were distracted by the Dwarf, who was feigning injury. The Warlock/Paladin came up from behind to make his attack. I made the Stealth roll because he moved twenty feet up the tunnel. Maybe I should have given advantage on the check
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Setup:
A dwarf Fighter is feigning being battered and bruised to get two Bugbears to check on him.
A Warlock/Paladin is hiding in a nook in a tunnel just south of a T-junction. He rolls a 21 on their Stealth/Hiding check.
At the T-junction, the two Bugbears walk past, not noticing the Warlock/Paladin to the south, failing the Passive Perception check, with their attention on the dwarf.
Once the Bugbears stop at the dwarf to inspect him, the Warlock/Paladin wants to sneak up behind and attack.
Question:
At the time in the game, I asked for a second Stealth check since the hiding was one action, and moving down the passage, I viewed a second action. I'm basing that ruling off of the PHB entry on Hiding in Chapter 7:
Does the Warlock/Paladin need to make another Stealth check to determine if he can leave the nook and creep up the passage to get behind the Bugbears without being detected, or is the original Stealth check still active?
What I believe happens next is with the Warlock/Paladin hostile intent, Initiative would be rolled, and Suprise would be applied to the Bugbears given if the Stealth check beats out the Passive Perception. Or so I believe, but I am not sure Suprise applied, given the Bugbears attention is on the dwarf.
I only call for an additional stealth check if something is done that might reveal the character's position. So you could call for a separate stealth check for sneaking out, but if there's no particular challenges likely to spoil the stealth (dry-brittle bones littering the floor, a puddle to splash through, a light source that would cast a shadow where the Bugbears can see it, etc) then I wouldn't call for the additional stealth roll.
As soon as the warlock/paladin starts moving, then they are no longer hidden. If they used a ranged attack, then they would still get the element of surprise, but having to cross some open ground then the hide is lost.
You are correct that initiative is rolled before any attack.
You're forgetting that sneaking exists. Charging out would break stealth, but if the character is moving half speed to specifically sneak, then they're still hidden until an enemy passes the check to see them. Remember the context, the Bugbears already passed the Warlock/Paladin, so the latter is approaching them from behind, and there's not other enemies to see the Warlock/Paladin.
If the hidden creature starts moving to a space where it can be seen, it's no longer hidden, unless the DM determine that nearby creatures are too distracted to spot it somehow.
In such case as DM i wouldn't ask for another Dexterity (Stealth) check from the Warlock since you make one until you are discovered or you stop hiding. The Bugbears would immediately spot the Warlock upon coming into line of sight and therefore wouldn't be surprised because they noticed a threat at the start of the encounter. Even if they'd failed to notice the Warlock the Bugbears still wouldn't be surprised because you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares, and here the Dwarf is not hidden.
I will let the rogue pop out of his hiding spot without moving to fire a crossbow unseen at the enemy. But if he wants to come out of cover to step up to the enemy and stab them, he is not an unseen attacker.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
If the Warlock/Paladin had cast Eldritch Blast his hiding spot, I would have given him Advantage, but since he moved away and had to traverse 20 feet, I made him do a second roll. What I understand from this conversation is that even with the Bugbear's focus on the dwarf and their backs turned to the Warlock/Paladin, the surprise would not be granted.
Given the situation again, I was thinking of giving the Warlock/Paladin advantage on his initiative roll if he could successfully sneak up on the Bugbears. I know my players grumble about not getting a free attack or first attack on creatures when they are correctly set up.
The other posters have described the rules application.
Rule of cool, I would let the surprise happen if the players invested in selling the distraction. Its just some bugbears, probably not the bbeg of the fight.
This sort of "sneaking" doesn't exist in 5E.
There is no facing in 5E, since folks in wary situations are assumed to be keeping an eye out all around them (scanning the area).
Or are you referring to https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/adventuring#Stealth, where it says:
(emphasis mine)
Dungeon Master's Guide, pg 4
The rules exist to facilitate the storytelling between the DM and players, and even the rulebooks themselves specifically say that the DM is the final arbiter on the rules, not the rulebooks. This situation is a case of the DM applying common sense. The text specifying "not in the open" means not where there's no plausible change of not being seen. When the only potential observers are instead focused on a distraction the opposite direction, the sneaking character is effectively not in the open relative to the potential observers. As such, the characters making a stealth check vs the opponents' passive perception is completely reasonable, far more so than having all enemies omnisciently detect every creature behind them as you're suggesting.
"Sneaking" doesn't appear to be well defined in 5e as a mechanic (compared to "hiding") and is only mentioned in a few places. In the PHB, the only places that I see it are:
. . . and that's about it. But, I do find it interesting that one of these examples used the phrase "sneak up on someone without being seen or heard", which is pretty much the definition of "hidden" from Chapter 9:
The implication is that in order to sneak up on someone, you must first be hidden. Or, at the very least you are "unnoticed" (the enemy is "unaware" of you) or "not yet noticed". However, there is also the rule that under most normal circumstances both parties notice each other at the same time if neither is already trying to use stealth. So, one of the main ways to notice a creature and still have the opportunity to sneak up behind it is to be hidden.
But now there are a bunch of points about hiding from Chapter 7 to make note of:
Given all of this information, I believe the OP handled the situation exactly correctly. In most cases there really has to be two stealth checks here. On one hand, it's mentioned that a DM might "allow you to stay hidden" situationally -- if an enemy is so distracted that the DM is basically deciding that his attempt to be stealthy has no chance to fail -- no roll required. But in my opinion, most of the time we should be mindful of the fact that the character "stopped hiding / came out of hiding" to approach the creature from behind. And yet, we are not "in combat" (yet), so maybe the enemy's guard is down as compared to if it was actively in a fight? Still, I vote for 2 stealth rolls here. One for hiding, which gives the opportunity to sneak up behind an unsuspecting enemy, the second roll to actually execute the act of sneaking without now being noticed. Note that advantage on the attack roll would be given due to being an unseen attacker, not due to being hidden or due to sneaking.
Lastly, regarding the possible "surprise". I think that the presence of the dwarf does not automatically disqualify the situation from being a surprise attack. The dwarf is pretending to be unthreatening. Now, in that scenario I do think that it's appropriate to have the dwarf roll some sort of Performance check or something to see how the Bugbear reacts to seeing the dwarf -- is he very suspicious that something isn't right and immediately goes on high alert? (No surprise) Or, does he "fall for it" and approach the dwarf in a totally relaxed manner as if there is no threat at all (possible surprise attack). Perhaps if the player roleplays well and describes exactly how he is tricking the Bugbear in a clever way he can gain advantage on performance or be granted auto-success.
Also, if having to make 2 stealth rolls seems too difficult, remember that one of the examples above implies that you could simply jump out of a hidden position and charge the enemy and you might still be granted surprise for this. However, in that case you would not be an "unseen attacker" so you would not be attacking with advantage (and so a single rogue would not get to use their sneak attack, etc) even though you would get surprise. Or you could initiate combat by attacking at range with surprise and advantage and potentially do less base damage. So there are pros and cons and a genuine choice to make. If you don't require the 2nd stealth roll in the OP I think the players gain too much by choosing to sneak after hiding.
I don't think you need to make another Dexterity (Stealth) check to sneak or move silently while you are hidden since you are already unseen and unheard, with a Stealth score to contest with the Passive Perception of any creature that could perceive you.
The section about the DM being able to do anything always applies to every single rule, so it isn't worth mentioning in this particular forum which generally considers the RAW of the situation rather than DM fiat.
Also, see my other comments in the same section about "facing" being only an optional rule. The rules assume that everybody is aware and looking around them (thus flanking is only an optional rule too).
The rules about facing and detecting anyone in the open are more for active combat. Having NPC’s have a perfect omnidirectional awareness of their surroundings at all times would make Stealth fairly useless. Until initiative is rolled, I’d say the DMG bit “If neither side is being stealthy, creatures automatically notice each other once they are within sight or hearing range of one another. Otherwise, compare the Dexterity (Stealth) check results of the creatures in the group that is hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the other group, as explained in the Player’s Handbook.” indicates that a player can attempt to come up behind enemies unnoticed if the DM agrees it’s plausible.
Well, if you take attempt to come up behind enemies as hiding then yes. But i don't think it meet the criterias unless it's distracted to the point of not seeing you openly coming since normally you can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly...
How can they see you clearly if you’re behind them? Constantly having omnidirectional sight on just nerfs stealth to near uselessness; outside of combat it’s a DM’s call where NPC’s are looking.
Stealth is about moving quietly whilst out of sight - e.g. behind cover.
Behind someone is also out of their sight. Again, the constant 360 awareness is for combat, and it's more just a handwave to justify the overhead view players will have of the map.
While the rules are much more defined for combat purposes, DM can always can rule that;
You normally can see all around you unless distracted somehow.
OR
You don't normally see all around you unless you're in combat.
In the case I outlined, the Bugbears were distracted by the Dwarf, who was feigning injury. The Warlock/Paladin came up from behind to make his attack. I made the Stealth roll because he moved twenty feet up the tunnel. Maybe I should have given advantage on the check