When a spell, for example, thunderwave lists the range as Self (15-foot cube), its point of origin must necessarily be from one of the cube' face right beside the caster (as illustrated in page 204 of the player's handbook) or a caster can remain in the centre, emanating the spell around him in a cube-shaped way?
The DM at the time allowed me to do the latter, but we were in doubt.
I think the answer is no, at least you couldn't be inside the area of Thunderwave without suffering its effects yourself. A similar spell which covers an area like you described is Thunderclap. Read the difference in its targeting description.
For Thunderwave, imagine you choose a target square to the east of yourself. The wave then spreads north one square and south one square to form a line. That line then sweeps east another two squares, smashing things in its path. The directionality of that linear wave prevents you from being in the centre of the effect. You could choose your own square to be the first target square and then direct the wave in a single direction away from yourself, but then you would be hit by the wave as well. So, Thunderwave is not a nova-shaped spell for when you surrounded, it is a close-range spell for smashing enemies in formation, without hitting anyone on your side of the battle line.
Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you.
Here's the rules for cubic areas of effect:
Cube
You select a cube's point of origin, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect. The cube's size is expressed as the length of each side.
A cube's point of origin is not included in the cube's area of effect, unless you decide otherwise.
Since Thunderwave has a range of "self", the point of origin is the caster, which must be on the surface of the cube; thus, it's impossible for the caster to be inside the cube.
To put it simply, you create a cube adjacent to your space. The cube can be anywhere relative to your space as long as 1 point on the cube's surface touches your space; it doesn't have to be at ground level, centered on you, aligned to a grid, or placed flat against your space. If any part of the cube overlaps another creature's space, they're affected by the spell.
If you're fighting creatures taller than you, or you're on lower ground, you could choose to create the cube directly above you and hit creatures next to you in every direction.
The rules as written do place the caster outside of the cube, but it is so cool to have a caster surrounded by enemies and just blast outwards in every direction.
For Thunderwave, I advocate for dropping prone and casting it into the 15ft cube above you. This has the additional effect of dealing an additional 1d6 damage as they fall after being launched into the air.
For Thunderwave, I advocate for dropping prone and casting it into the 15ft cube above you. This has the additional effect of dealing an additional 1d6 damage as they fall after being launched into the air.
Thunderwave pushes targets 10 feet away from you; that's not going to be straight up unless you're under them, which can't be the case if you and your targets are all on the ground. They'd get pushed diagonally.
I assume that Thunderwave has Effect B, pushing enemies from the side of the AoE you touch, towards the opposite side. It is worth noting that in this diagram I am using the 5/10 diagonal variant rule for demonstration, because it simplifies B's movement.
You select a cube's point of origin, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect. The cube's size is expressed as the length of each side.
A cube's point of origin is not included in the cube's area of effect, unless you decide otherwise.
Target yourself
Ifa spell targets a creature of your choice, you can choose yourself, unless the creature must be hostile or specifically a creature other than you. If you are in the area of effect of a spell you cast, you can target yourself.
Key points ..
unless you decide otherwise and you can target yourself.
Basically the above interpretation is viewing the cub as a three dimensional object. However you can place a hand on the face of a four dimensional cube on the inside and include yourself in the target area. You just have to deal with the reality you are now a target of the spell and take the damage as written.
The caster can choose to include themselves in the effect and include themselves as a target.
The question is do you have to target self? Targeting does say you can target yourself. It does not say you have to. It is magic after all.
Another point, A spell does not effect a space if it does not cover >50%. You cannot clip someone with Thunderwave.
That's assuming you're playing with the PH/DMG's grid rules, and even then the 50% rule only applies to circular areas (spheres and cylinders.)
Taking only DMG into account (not Xanathar's Guide to Everything), for cones, lines or cubes, what should be the rule? If the cone/line/cube touches someone's square, that creature is affected?
Also, I'd like to add this tweet related to the original post:
Taking only DMG into account (not Xanathar's Guide to Everything), for cones, lines or cubes, what should be the rule? If the cone/line/cube touches someone's square, that creature is affected?
A creature must be within an area of effect to be affected by it.
A cone, line or cube extends from its point of origin and the latetr is not included in the area of effect unless you decide otherwise.
Taking only DMG into account (not Xanathar's Guide to Everything), for cones, lines or cubes, what should be the rule? If the cone/line/cube touches someone's square, that creature is affected?
A creature must be within an area of effect to be affected by it.
A cone, line or cube extends from its point of origin and the latter is not included in the area of effect unless you decide otherwise.
Yes, I know, that's the information in the PHB, but when you're playing on a grid, what's the usual approach to determine if a square is affected or not by, for example, a cone?
According to DMG, p.251: "Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal."
And then you have two options, depending on whether you want to include squares that are less than 50% covered:
The Dungeon Master Guide offer guidance on adjudicating circular area of effect covering at least half a square which the DM can apply to other ones such as cone for exemple.
Areas of Effect: The area of effect of a spell, monster ability, or other feature must be translated onto squares or hexes to determine which potential targets are in the area and which aren't. Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square.
The Dungeon Master Guide offer guidance on adjudicating circular area of effect covering at least half a square which the DM can apply to other ones such as cone for exemple.
Areas of Effect: The area of effect of a spell, monster ability, or other feature must be translated onto squares or hexes to determine which potential targets are in the area and which aren't. Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square.
Ok, ok, thanks Plaguescarred.
I follow that rule, indeed, for all kind of areas of effect. I mean, if the player wants to point a cone, line or cube diagonally, and doing so, some squares are partially covered, then the creatures in that area are affected by that effect.
Why shouldn't the point of origin be directly in front of the caster?
You mean like this, right?
Well, in my previous drawing, I strictly followed the rules in the Dungeon Master's Guide for using an intersection of squares (is that correct, right?), but (shhh) to be honest, when I'm DMGing, we center the point of origin on the side of the square (maybe with different angles), which I find more intuitive.
When a spell, for example, thunderwave lists the range as Self (15-foot cube), its point of origin must necessarily be from one of the cube' face right beside the caster (as illustrated in page 204 of the player's handbook) or a caster can remain in the centre, emanating the spell around him in a cube-shaped way?
The DM at the time allowed me to do the latter, but we were in doubt.
~GenlyAi
I think the answer is no, at least you couldn't be inside the area of Thunderwave without suffering its effects yourself. A similar spell which covers an area like you described is Thunderclap. Read the difference in its targeting description.
For Thunderwave, imagine you choose a target square to the east of yourself. The wave then spreads north one square and south one square to form a line. That line then sweeps east another two squares, smashing things in its path. The directionality of that linear wave prevents you from being in the centre of the effect. You could choose your own square to be the first target square and then direct the wave in a single direction away from yourself, but then you would be hit by the wave as well. So, Thunderwave is not a nova-shaped spell for when you surrounded, it is a close-range spell for smashing enemies in formation, without hitting anyone on your side of the battle line.
Makes sense. Thank you! At least I can choose the direction of the cube wave, I believe!
Here's the rules for spells with a range of self:
Here's the rules for cubic areas of effect:
Since Thunderwave has a range of "self", the point of origin is the caster, which must be on the surface of the cube; thus, it's impossible for the caster to be inside the cube.
To put it simply, you create a cube adjacent to your space. The cube can be anywhere relative to your space as long as 1 point on the cube's surface touches your space; it doesn't have to be at ground level, centered on you, aligned to a grid, or placed flat against your space. If any part of the cube overlaps another creature's space, they're affected by the spell.
If you're fighting creatures taller than you, or you're on lower ground, you could choose to create the cube directly above you and hit creatures next to you in every direction.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Cheers!
The rules as written do place the caster outside of the cube, but it is so cool to have a caster surrounded by enemies and just blast outwards in every direction.
We allow it in our games.
For Thunderwave, I advocate for dropping prone and casting it into the 15ft cube above you. This has the additional effect of dealing an additional 1d6 damage as they fall after being launched into the air.
Formatting Tooltips, because I always forget
The Forum Infestation (TM)
AoE Initial Effect A Effect B
Position
051015 0510152025 0510152025
A
X X X A X X X X X X X A
I X X X I X X C I X X X C I X X X C
X X X X B X X X X X X X B
B
I assume that Thunderwave has Effect B, pushing enemies from the side of the AoE you touch, towards the opposite side. It is worth noting that in this diagram I am using the 5/10 diagonal variant rule for demonstration, because it simplifies B's movement.
Formatting Tooltips, because I always forget
True, awesome!
Thank you so much folks! :)
Another point, A spell does not effect a space if it does not cover >50%. You cannot clip someone with Thunderwave.
Formatting Tooltips, because I always forget
The Forum Infestation (TM)
PH 204
Cube
You select a cube's point of origin, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect. The cube's size is expressed as the length of each side.
A cube's point of origin is not included in the cube's area of effect, unless you decide otherwise.
Target yourself
Ifa spell targets a creature of your choice, you can choose yourself, unless the creature must be hostile or specifically a creature other than you. If you are in the area of effect of a spell you cast, you can target yourself.
Key points ..
unless you decide otherwise and you can target yourself.
Basically the above interpretation is viewing the cub as a three dimensional object. However you can place a hand on the face of a four dimensional cube on the inside and include yourself in the target area. You just have to deal with the reality you are now a target of the spell and take the damage as written.
The caster can choose to include themselves in the effect and include themselves as a target.
The question is do you have to target self? Targeting does say you can target yourself. It does not say you have to. It is magic after all.
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Taking only DMG into account (not Xanathar's Guide to Everything), for cones, lines or cubes, what should be the rule? If the cone/line/cube touches someone's square, that creature is affected?
Also, I'd like to add this tweet related to the original post:
A creature must be within an area of effect to be affected by it.
A cone, line or cube extends from its point of origin and the latetr is not included in the area of effect unless you decide otherwise.
Yes, I know, that's the information in the PHB, but when you're playing on a grid, what's the usual approach to determine if a square is affected or not by, for example, a cone?
According to DMG, p.251: "Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal."
And then you have two options, depending on whether you want to include squares that are less than 50% covered:
The caster is the black circle.
The Dungeon Master Guide offer guidance on adjudicating circular area of effect covering at least half a square which the DM can apply to other ones such as cone for exemple.
Why shouldn't the point of origin be directly in front of the caster?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Ok, ok, thanks Plaguescarred.
I follow that rule, indeed, for all kind of areas of effect. I mean, if the player wants to point a cone, line or cube diagonally, and doing so, some squares are partially covered, then the creatures in that area are affected by that effect.
You mean like this, right?
Well, in my previous drawing, I strictly followed the rules in the Dungeon Master's Guide for using an intersection of squares (is that correct, right?), but (shhh) to be honest, when I'm DMGing, we center the point of origin on the side of the square (maybe with different angles), which I find more intuitive.