A dragon's wing attack doesn't just enable it to move, it lets it do an area attack, nor does a vampire's because that one doesn't trigger opportunity attacks (the trade off is you have to wait, and spend a legendary action) etc.
So you're saying a vampire may use it's Legendary Action: Move for nothing if it moved on it's turn ? #lame a chance it doesn't work this way loll
Dragon Wing Attack do provoke an Opportunity Attack according to official ruling from Sage Advice Compendium;
Does the movement from a dragon’s Wing Attack legendary action draw attacks of opportunity if it moves out of reach? Yes. Wing Attack does not protect the dragon from opportunity attacks
So you're saying a vampire may use it's Legendary Action: Move for nothing if it moved on it's turn ? #lame a chance it doesn't work this way loll
If it doesn't work that way then it should be easy to prove why?
Dragon Wing Attack do provoke an Opportunity Attack according to official ruling from Sage Advice Compendium;
Does the movement from a dragon’s Wing Attack legendary action draw attacks of opportunity if it moves out of reach? Yes. Wing Attack does not protect the dragon from opportunity attacks
I never said it didn't; the vampire's Move legendary action doesn't. A dragon's Wing Attack can function like a pseudo-disengage, but only in the sense it can knock targets prone so they're less likely to hit if they make opportunity attacks (similar to a Monk using Patient Defence rather than Step of the Wind).
Ok nail in the coffin time, from Sage Advice Compendium official ruling to lay down your travel pace ruling in combat once and for all;
Does travel pace apply to movement in combat, or just when traveling? The travel pace rule (PH, 181–2) doesn’t apply in combat.
Literally nothing I have quoted has come from the travel pace rules; travel pace is how far you can travel in an hour/a day etc.
The rule that states that speed is how far you can move in a round comes from the Adventuring (Movement) rules, specifically the section on Speed, first paragraph:
Every character and monster has a speed, which is the distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round. This number assumes short bursts of energetic movement in the midst of a life-threatening situation.
Travel Pace is a sub-section beneath that.
Everything under the adventuring section is part of the general rules of D&D 5e, the combat section doesn't replace it, because it includes things like falling, jumping, environmental visibility etc.
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I actually feel my question was worth considering: What if the enemy already acted, and have no movement left? Or, again, if they move because of DW, do they then have no move on their turn?
dissonant whispers doesn't use the target's movement but its reaction, so it won't go anywhere if it sn't available anymore or if it's speed is currently 0 for some reason (such as grappled). If it does move, it will still be able to move up to its speed on its next turn since it has otherwise no relation with it.
""On a failed save, it takes 3d6 psychic damage and must immediately use its reaction, if available, to move as far as its speed allows away from you.""
This was back on Post #57 and was by far the best explanation of what's going on with how the target of the spell in this OP moves.
A big source of confusion across multiple threads is that people are misinterpreting the term "speed". Speed is a rate of travel. One common English language usage of "speed" can be found in physics textbooks as something like: speed = (distance traveled) / (time interval), a nonnegative scalar quantity. The speed listed for a creature represents the maximum that it can move in a round. A creature may opt to use less movement than the maximum in that round. It's the movement that is used, not the speed. This is explained in the rules as follows:
Every character and monster has a speed, which is the distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round.
The movement is used during the creature's turn (emphasis given within the rules):
On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first. Your speed--sometimes called your walking speed--is noted on your character sheet.
Admittedly, the next couple of references in the rules might also be causing confusion -- it would have been better if the author used a term like "maximum movement" instead of "speed" here:
On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed. You can use as much or as little of your speed as you like on your turn
and here:
However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving.
and also here:
You can break up your movement on your turn, using some of your speed before and after your action. For example, if you have a speed of 30 feet, you can move 10 feet, take your action, and then move 20 feet.
It does work by using the term "speed", but to do so with the correct interpretation you are expected to flip to other sections of the rules and put things together, which is often the case with many aspects of 5e rules. For example, if we refer back to my first blockquote above, we already have the term speed defined: "which is the distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round". If we wanted to be really wordy, we could substitute the definition of speed for wherever the term speed is mentioned above, such as:
-- On your turn, you can move a distance up to your [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ] and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first. Your [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ] --sometimes called your walking speed--is noted on your character sheet.
-- On your turn, you can move a distance up to your [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ]. You can use as much or as little of your [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ] as you like on your turn
-- However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ] until it is used up or until you are done moving.
-- You can break up your movement on your turn, using some of your [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ] before and after your action. For example, if you have a [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ] of 30 feet, you can move 10 feet, take your action, and then move 20 feet.
The next couple of sections are written more clearly:
you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks. For example, a fighter who can make two attacks with the Extra Attack feature and who has a speed of 25 feet could move 10 feet, make an attack, move 15 feet, and then attack again.
If you have more than one speed, such as your walking speed and a flying speed, you can switch back and forth between your speeds during your move. Whenever you switch, subtract the distance you've already moved from the new speed. The result determines how much farther you can move.
In the section on the Prone condition, the first usage of the term "speed" is once again problematic and is easily misinterpreted, but after that it's pretty clearly written by using the term "movement" instead. Once again, if we simply substitute the game's definition of speed wherever it uses the term speed, it becomes very wordy but the meaning becomes more clear:
You can drop prone without using any of your speed. Standing up takes more effort; doing so costs an amount of movement equal to half your speed. For example, if your speed is 30 feet, you must spend 15 feet of movement to stand up. You can't stand up if you don't have enough movement left or if your speed is 0.
The above could be rewritten as:
"You can drop prone without using any of your [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ]. Standing up takes more effort; doing so costs an amount of movement equal to half your [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ]. For example, if your [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ] is 30 feet, you must spend 15 feet of movement to stand up. You can't stand up if you don't have enough movement left or if your [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ] is 0."
This next one is particularly poorly written. It's easy to see how people could think that the speed is something that is decreasing as movement is used when reading something like this if they weren't familiar with the definition of speed as given elsewhere in the rules:
Rather than moving foot by foot, move square by square on the grid. This means you use your speed in 5-foot segments.
Again, it's not the speed that gets used, it's the movement. It's just poorly written. Substitute the game's definition of speed and what the author is trying to say becomes a bit more clear. (an exercise for the reader)
Ok, let's get to some other arguments in this thread. There was some discussion about expenditure and replenishment of action-economy-type resources. I often see an argument that your actions or movement don't get replenished until the start of your next turn. Or likewise, that you "can't" use movement or actions when it's not your turn. But there isn't actually a rule that says this. (Sorry J.C. -- the tweet about how you cannot use movement when it is not your turn is incorrect. There is no rule against doing so.) The only limitations given in the rules are that your speed defines the maximum distance walked in a round, aka how much movement you can use before it needs to be replenished (but when during the round is it replenished? That's undefined.) and that "when you take a reaction, you can't take another one until the start of your next turn." In the case of movement, it's implied that all used up "normal" movement is replenished every round, but that's not the only time that movement resources can be gained. Clearly, in addition to this "normal" movement it is possible to also acquire "extra" movement, such as when you take a Dash action:
When you take the Dash action, you gain extra movement for the current turn. The increase equals your speed
However, it's a turn based game and based on how it naturally flows, there usually isn't any mechanism for being able to actually do anything if it's not your turn. The common exception is during a reaction. During a reaction you can do certain specific activities, including using movement, even when it is not your turn. Likewise, if you are the target of a spell that says that you can or must do something during some moment when it is not your turn, then you can or must do so.
Here is a relevant section of the Ready action:
you can take the Ready action on your turn, which lets you act using your reaction before the start of your next turn.
First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your speed in response to it.
Since we know from above that speed is defined as "the distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round" and is therefore a parameter that is the maximum end of a range and is not a resource that is used up while moving, then we can interpret the text describing the Ready action to be providing a fresh amount of "extra" movement resource equal to your speed (similar to what would be gained with a Dash action) that can be used immediately (during the triggered reaction).
With the spell in question from the OP, a similar thing is happening:
The target . . . must immediately use its reaction, if available, to move as far as its speed allows away from you.
Similar to the Dash action or the Ready action's triggered reaction, the target of this spell gains "extra" movement that must be used in full immediately during this reaction that is triggered by the spell.
Jeez, I've unwittingly created a monster. Look, here's what I think. This: move as far as its speed allows isn't some sort of magical mumbo-jumbo that doesn't mean anything. I also see zero reason to interpret that as [move your max speed away from the caster]. There's simply no basis for that interpretation. Not in the language presented.
To my mind, that literally means: Move as far as you can, depending on how much movement you have left. As far as your Speed - that section of your character sheet - allows, dependent upon how far you already moved this round. Also, by extension, if you haven't moved yet this round, well, this is your movement. Sorry.
That's that I get from the language used. I'm positive that's not what they wanted it to mean. But that's the language they used for it. Because being totally un-ambiguous is really hard.
I just thought it was funny - the spell (to my mind) is much too powerful if used in that way =D
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Since we know from above that speed is defined as "the distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round" and is therefore a parameter that is the maximum end of a range and is not a resource that is used up while moving, then we can interpret the text describing the Ready action to be providing a fresh amount of "extra" movement resource equal to your speed (similar to what would be gained with a Dash action) that can be used immediately (during the triggered reaction).
You're still making a logical leap here that this must mean "extra" movement in the case of the Ready action or similar; purely in terms of whether you can move or not, it doesn't actually matter if speed is a resource that is consumed (ticks down) or if it's just an upper limit on movement (ticks up until movement greater/equal than speed), because there's no reason to assume that moving out of sequence lets you exceed the limit on speed for the round.
Out of all of these things only the Dash action actually says that you gain additional movement:
When you take the Dash action, you gain extra movement for the current turn. The increase equals your speed, after applying any modifiers. With a speed of 30 feet, for example, you can move up to 60 feet on your turn if you dash.
It's providing an explicit override to the normal limit, with a clear example of that happening. None of the rest of these things give us any language from which to assume they function in the same way, so to do so is purely invention.
It may well be how they're intended to work, but the rules don't say so. Again, the 5e movement rules are very poorly written (and structured).
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Literally nothing I have quoted has come from the travel pace rules; travel pace is how far you can travel in an hour/a day etc.
The rule that states that speed is how far you can move in a round comes from the Adventuring (Movement) rules, specifically the section on Speed, first paragraph:
Every character and monster has a speed, which is the distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round. This number assumes short bursts of energetic movement in the midst of a life-threatening situation.
Travel Pace is a sub-section beneath that.
Everything under the adventuring section is part of the general rules of D&D 5e, the combat section doesn't replace it, because it includes things like falling, jumping, environmental visibility etc.
It this section you quote in the combat section? No then it doesn't belong. It's in nthe Movement section and even says:
The rules for determining travel time depend on two factors: the speed and travel pace of the creatures moving and the terrain they're moving over.
The illogical leap is applying this as a limit and insisting that all moving abilities are subject to that limit in combat when you have not only Dev's tweet that says you have no off turn movement as a limit but Sage Advice like for the Harengon's Rabbit Hop official ruling that clearly say so but you prefer to keep claiming it's bad ruling or unofficial.
Ask yourself this, why would an Orc use a bonus action on it's turn to move up to its speed if it needed to have movement left to do so? He could just move normally and save a bonus action ☺
Aggressive. As a bonus action, the orc can move up to its speed toward a hostile creature that it can see.
It this section you quote in the combat section? No then it doesn't belong.
It absolutely belongs, because the combat rules apply on top of the adventuring rules, they're not mutually exclusive; otherwise it would be impossible to fall, jump or have obscured vision etc. during combat. If your argument relies on ignoring rules that don't suit your narrative, then it's not a valid argument in Rules As Written.
The illogical leap is applying this as a limit and insisting that all moving abilities are subject to that limit in combat when you have not only Dev's tweet that says you have no off turn movement as a limit but Sage Advice like for the Harengon's Rabbit Hop official ruling that clearly say so but you prefer to keep claiming it's bad ruling or unofficial.
No, the illogical leap is deciding that a rule that clearly and unambiguously states that speed is how far you can move in a round is somehow irrelevant to an issue of how movement and speed work.
As I have already pointed out repeatedly, dev tweets are not official rulings in RAW; they are frequently contradictory, sometimes wrong, and often state things that the rules do not. And it doesn't matter if the devs intend for characters to have no movement outside of their turn, because a) the rules do not say that and b) having no movement outside of your turn would mean you can't move outside of your turn, not that you can do so for free.
For the Harengon Rabbit Hop trait, as I have already pointed out, the reason the Sage Advice exists for it is entirely because the rule was poorly written; if the rule was written correctly in the first place they wouldn't have to add detail that the rule itself lacks. Again, all the trait says is you can jump as a bonus action, but in the rules jumping is movement, so the trait provides no reason it should function in the way they describe.
Again, it may well be the intention that movement as part of any action, bonus action, or reaction (i.e- not part of your normal movement on your turn) is always free, but the rules never say this is the case so any supplementary rulings that suggests this are at best admissions that the 5e movement rules are currently incorrect as written, but for a Rules As Written issue that's irrelevant if the devs can't be arsed to actually fix it.
Ask yourself this, why would an Orc use a bonus action on it's turn to move up to its speed if it needed to have movement left to do so? He could just move normally and save a bonus action ☺
Aggressive. As a bonus action, the orc can move up to its speed toward a hostile creature that it can see.
As I have already answered you, it wouldn't, because the aggressive trait does nothing as written. It doesn't matter that the intention is obviously to function like a bonus action Dash (towards an enemy), because that's not what the rule says. This is far from the only example of problematic RAW on rules where the intention is obvious enough to just ignore it and move on, but it doesn't change the fact the RAW says what it says.
You should ask yourself a different question; do you believe that every rule written by the devs is perfect? Because they provably aren't; they are only human, and they make mistakes, and strange design decisions and don't use language consistently or even correctly in some cases. So why should you expect that the rules as you interpret them must perfectly match what is written?
There is a reason nobody outside of Adventurer's League plays the Rules As Written, because the 5e rules are frankly a mess; they contain just enough hints at intention for us to get by, but there are plenty of cases where it's not clear how things are supposed to work, or where "clarifications" by the devs directly contradict what was written. It should not be controversial to point out that the 5e movement rules are bad, but knowing that doesn't change what they say, only how we choose to use them, but that's not what matters in RAW.
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The Orc monsterh is not discontinued by Volo's Guide it's not a player's race it's a monster with it's own trait that never been errata because the trait works fine as written. The rules aren't perfect, but when used in their respective context they work better the Adventuring Movement rules are not to be used in combat as a sort of limiter, that's why an official ruling says travel pace aren't used in combat. I'm not as critical of 5E to my experience it's running fine despite not being perfect ruleset, but again which edition was? Even OneDnD won't be, but i'm certain movement using other ressources also won't cost movement or be limited by your speed in a round during combat.
The Orc monsterh is not discontinued by Volo's Guide it's not a player's race it's a monster with it's own trait that never been errata because the trait works fine as written.
I've already corrected my post, but the trait still doesn't "work fine as written"; just because we can understand what it's intended to do doesn't mean the rule couldn't (or shouldn't) actually say what it means. You yourself insisted this is a Rules As Written discussion, but you keep referring to things outside of the Rules As Written, and things that don't say what you want them to say.
The rules aren't perfect, but when used in their respective context they work better the Adventuring Movement rules are not to be used in combat as a sort of limiter, that's why an official ruling says travel pace aren't used in combat.
As I have already pointed out; the definition of speed as how far you can move in one round IS NOT PART OF THE TRAVEL PACE RULES.
Kindly stop trying to excise rules you don't like just because you'd rather not have to deal with them; if you're going to keep insisting on ignoring one of the core rules then there's no point in continuing, because you're not arguing within the 5e RAW in that case.
I'm not as critical of 5E to my experience it's running fine despite not being perfect ruleset, but again which edition was? Even OneDnD won't be, but i'm certain movement using other ressources also won't cost movement or be limited by your speed in a round during combat.
If that's how it's intended to work then the rules need to actually say so; even if the developers forget to include something, or use unclear language, they can (and should) issue errata to fix rules problems, not force us to rely on tweets that often don't actually help (because they're usually answering only a single specific question, and don't always manage that). Even official Sage Advice isn't that helpful, because often it only begs the question of why a proper errata hasn't been issued.
I don't expect a ruleset to be perfect, but there are ways they can make them a lot simpler and clearer; keeping all the movement rules in one place would be a start, being a lot more ordered and logical in how they set them out and define them would likewise make a huge difference. If they're going to use the terms "movement" and "speed" they need to be clear what they mean in gameplay terms. In general it would help if they realised that "idiomatic" (natural rules) are not a good way to write rules in the first place, but there seems to not be much hope of that; natural language and rules don't go well together because in a ruleset terms need to mean specific things or more and more goes down to interpretation.
If movement on your turn is different to movement as part of an action, bonus action or reaction then the rules need to say so, because in RAW a rule can only do what it says it does; extra movement is exactly that, extra, so it would need to say that it's extra movement in order to occur (as Dash does), because the default is you can only move up to your speed in a round.
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The rules as written don't refer to deducting each part of your move from your speed when off turn, but on your turn. If you think the rules say so somewhere please quote them.
Movement and Position: On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed. You can use as much or as little of your speed as you like on your turn, following the rules here. Your movement can include jumping, climbing, and swimming. These different modes of movement can be combined with walking, or they can constitute your entire move. However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving.
Look, here's what I think. This: move as far as its speed allows isn't some sort of magical mumbo-jumbo that doesn't mean anything. I also see zero reason to interpret that as [move your max speed away from the caster]. There's simply no basis for that interpretation. Not in the language presented.
And yet, pages upon pages of basis for that interpretation have been presented in this very thread. Speed is defined in the rules: "the distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round". Saying "max speed" is sort of redundant -- the term speed refers to a maximum, by definition. Therefore, "move as far as its speed allows" means that if the target creature's speed is 30 feet, then it must move 30 feet.
Again, as I did in a previous post, we can simply substitute the definition for speed to make the rule more clear without changing the meaning: "move as far as its [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ] allows". Or, in the case of a specific target with a speed of 30 feet this becomes: "move as far as its [ 30 feet ] allows". Yes, the grammar isn't great, but that's what it says.
To my mind, that literally means: Move as far as you can, depending on how much movement you have left. As far as your Speed - that section of your character sheet - allows, dependent upon how far you already moved this round. Also, by extension, if you haven't moved yet this round, well, this is your movement. Sorry.
This is incorrect for two reasons. First, it doesn't work that way. There is no mention of "depending on how much movement you have left" or "dependent upon how far you already moved this round". There is only mention of speed, which has a precise definition (see above). It says "move as far as its speed allows" and that's it.
Secondly, even if it worked as you're suggesting, you can't have it both ways. You can't use up currently unused movement but then also use up the movement for your next turn, it's one or the other. Unless you are suggesting that movement gets replenished at the beginning of a round instead of at the beginning or your Turn? As I mentioned previously, this detail is undefined in the rules but a DM should probably make it clear in advance that that's how they interpret the timing of the replenishment.
You're still making a logical leap here that this must mean "extra" movement in the case of the Ready action or similar; purely in terms of whether you can move or not, it doesn't actually matter if speed is a resource that is consumed (ticks down) or if it's just an upper limit on movement (ticks up until movement greater/equal than speed), because there's no reason to assume that moving out of sequence lets you exceed the limit on speed for the round.
Out of all of these things only the Dash action actually says that you gain additional movement:
This is a good argument. In the case of the Ready action, the rule says:
or you choose to move up to your speed in response to [ the trigger of your reaction ]
So indeed the exact phrasing used is different than in the Dash action, which explicitly grants "extra" movement. In the case of the Ready action, whether or not you want to refer to that as additional or "extra" movement that must be used during the reaction or if you want to instead just say that it's just a thing that you can do during the reaction . . . to me that's just sort of whatever.
Ask yourself this, why would an Orc use a bonus action on it's turn to move up to its speed if it needed to have movement left to do so? He could just move normally and save a bonus action ☺
Aggressive. As a bonus action, the orc can move up to its speed toward a hostile creature that it can see.
This is a great example and I agree 100%. An orc can use up its movement and then can also use its "Aggressive" bonus action to "move up to its speed". The term speed is defined (see above), and the speed of an orc is also defined in its stat block (30 feet). Therefore, an orc can move 30 feet and then use a bonus action to move another 30 feet. This is clear.
The rules as written don't refer to deducting each part of your move from your speed when off turn, but on your turn.
I'll make a minor objection to this logic. The rules describe a bunch of things that can be done during your turn. But it never says that these things can only be done on your turn or that they cannot be done when it is not your turn. Therefore, according to the rules, you can actually do all of the same things that you can do during your turn when it is not your turn. This includes taking actions and using movement. The catch, however, is that in a turn-based game it's really hard to ever have an opportunity to do anything when it is not your turn because, well, it's not your turn! However, there are some exceptions. Legendary actions are possible precisely because it is possible to take actions when it is not your turn. However, the main exception is using a reaction. But whenever you use a reaction, the things that you can do during a specific reaction are generally pretty tightly defined because your character is literally reacting to something specific. In the case of the Ready action, the action that you take during your reaction is defined in advance, but can be any action. For example, you can ready a Dash action and if that triggers your character would gain extra movement for the current turn -- but the current turn would NOT be your turn. In the case of DW, the activity performed during your reaction is defined as "move as far as its speed allows away from you". Just like you can take actions when it is not your turn, you can also move when it is not your turn. To me, the spell effect in DW grants additional movement that is gained and immediately fully used. But if you all want to argue that this is not really using movement per se but instead is just another action, defined by the spell effect, that can (and must) be done during the reaction, then I'd concede that point since like I said before, that's just kind of whatever.
I'll make a minor objection to this logic. The rules describe a bunch of things that can be done during your turn. But it never says that these things can only be done on your turn or that they cannot be done when it is not your turn. Therefore, according to the rules, you can actually do all of the same things that you can do during your turn when it is not your turn. This includes taking actions and using movement.
No you can't move or take action off turn unless noted otherwise, these are done on your turn.
The rules as written don't refer to deducting each part of your move from your speed when off turn, but on your turn. If you think the rules say so somewhere please quote them.
Movement and Position: On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed. You can use as much or as little of your speed as you like on your turn, following the rules here. Your movement can include jumping, climbing, and swimming. These different modes of movement can be combined with walking, or they can constitute your entire move. However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving.
It literally says so in your own quote that you deduct movement from speed. 🤦♂️
If you have a speed of 30 feet and deduct 20 feet from that then what do you think is your remaining speed for the round? Unlimited? Infinite? A billion feet? No, it's 10 feet, because that's how deducting works.
While you can only normally move during your own turn, we're told explicitly (and unambiguously) that speed is how far you can move in a round, so it doesn't matter when the move happens, so your speed is reduced until the start of a new round. I know you want to ignore this rule because it doesn't suit your narrative, but the alternative is that you have 30 feet of movement, spend it in your turn, and it never, ever comes back so your average character can move 30 feet in their entire lifetime. Do you really prefer that? 😂
The rules literally say these things and I'm getting real sick of having to repeat what the rules themselves say over and over again. Seriously, I'm not inventing any wording here; it's all in the damn rules.
You're still making a logical leap here that this must mean "extra" movement in the case of the Ready action or similar; purely in terms of whether you can move or not, it doesn't actually matter if speed is a resource that is consumed (ticks down) or if it's just an upper limit on movement (ticks up until movement greater/equal than speed), because there's no reason to assume that moving out of sequence lets you exceed the limit on speed for the round.
Out of all of these things only the Dash action actually says that you gain additional movement:
This is a good argument. In the case of the Ready action, the rule says:
or you choose to move up to your speed in response to [ the trigger of your reaction ]
So indeed the exact phrasing used is different than in the Dash action, which explicitly grants "extra" movement. In the case of the Ready action, whether or not you want to refer to that as additional or "extra" movement that must be used during the reaction or if you want to instead just say that it's just a thing that you can do during the reaction . . . to me that's just sort of whatever.
I'm not sure what you're saying here?
The Dash action explicitly gives you extra movement, the Ready action doesn't; all the latter does is let you move as a reaction rather than on your own turn? Your speed is still finite, if you've already used some of it you don't get anymore unless something says so.
The benefit of moving as a reaction is being able to do-so out of the normal sequence; for example, a Rogue might be hiding just outside a door they want to move through, but there's a guard just inside the door. Since you know they're heading out, you Ready your move until after the guard has exited the door. This way you can spend your movement for that round on doing it, rather than having to wait until your next turn.
You can also do things reactively rather than proactively; if you think an enemy might move towards you, you could move away on your turn, but if they move somewhere else instead you might find yourself wasting movement on your next turn chasing after them. If instead you Ready movement to occur only if that enemy moves towards you, then it only happens if it needs to (and if you change your mind you don't have to spend the reaction).
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Someone catch me up on this tangent. If I'm reading this right we're debating wether or not some offhand statement in the Adventuring chapter applies to a completely different aspect of the game that is instead covered by the Combat chapter?
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
No you can't move or take action off turn unless noted otherwise, these are done on your turn.
If you could Ready would be unecessary.
The thing is -- that is never stated anywhere in the rules. We're pretty much arguing semantics but I disagree with you on that. Again, there's a section of rules that describes things that can be done on your turn such as movement and action, but it never says that these activities can only be done on your turn or that you cannot do these things when it is not your turn. So, it IS legal to do so. The catch is that, mechanically, there's usually never any practical way to actually do it because you typically need it to be your turn to act at all. But legendary actions could not exist without it being legal to move or act when it is not your turn. But they do exist, so it must be legal to do so. It is also common to do so as part of a reaction, but in those cases the choices for how to move or act are usually predetermined since the character is reacting to something during his reaction.
As far as movement goes, a creature could be given a legendary action to Dash. The dash would operate correctly in that you gain movement for that turn which can then be expended during that turn which does not have to be your turn. Similarly, as mentioned before, you can Ready a Dash action and despite the arguments otherwise, this would indeed work as expected -- when your reaction is triggered during someone else's turn, you'd gain the extra movement and then you would be able to use that movement immediately during the reaction. There is no rule anywhere that suggests that it would not work this way. Of course, the debate could be avoided by simply using the Ready action to "choose to move up to your speed in response to [ the trigger ]. This allows you to move a distance equal to your speed even when your normal movement has already been used because that's what the rule says you can do.
The Dash action explicitly gives you extra movement, the Ready action doesn't; all the latter does is let you move as a reaction rather than on your own turn? Your speed is still finite, if you've already used some of it you don't get anymore unless something says so.
No, you're still using the term "speed" incorrectly. Speed has a very exact definition within the rules. It's "the distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round". Despite the poor grammar that's used in some of the explanations about how movement works, by definition speed is not something that can be used up or decreased merely by moving. It is a statistic. Basically, a creature's speed is whatever it says in the stat block. If something says that you move a distance equal to your speed, whether it's phrased like in Dash or it's phrased like in Ready it makes no difference -- you move a distance equal to what it says for speed in your stat block. In the case of Dash you get "extra" movement that can be used like normal movement. In the case of Ready or DW an argument can be made that you don't use movement, you just perform the described activity which is that you move a distance equal to what it says in your stat block. I'm still ok with assuming that these things do grant actual additional movement that gets used, but that distinction really doesn't matter.
you can Ready a Dash action and despite the arguments otherwise, this would indeed work as expected -- when your reaction is triggered during someone else's turn, you'd gain the extra movement
And do what with it? Yes you have the extra movement, but the Dash itself doesn't actually include moving as part of the action; Dashing works on your own turn because you can take an action and move as part of your turn, so after increasing your movement for the turn, you can then proceed to use it.
But the Ready action explicitly only lets you move or take an action, not both. To move as part of a readied action you'd need to ready some kind of action that includes moving; there are some, but as far as I'm aware none that also give you extra movement, so you'd still be limited by speed.
The only way Dashing as a reaction would allow more movement is some other effect enabled you to move, e.g- a Battle Master's Commander's Strike on the same turn, but that's a very complicated way to do it, and it's not actually clear what your movement would be since the dash gives you a bonus movement equal to your speed, but if you've already spent all of it you don't have any to add.
The Dash action explicitly gives you extra movement, the Ready action doesn't; all the latter does is let you move as a reaction rather than on your own turn? Your speed is still finite, if you've already used some of it you don't get anymore unless something says so.
No, you're still using the term "speed" incorrectly.
No, I'm not not, and this now the second time you've tried to accuse me of not knowing what words mean. I'm going to ask you once, and once only, to stop accusing me of being incapable of understanding basic words, or I'm introducing you to my blocklist and reporting you for abuse.
Speed has a very exact definition within the rules. It's "the distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round".
Which is exactly what I have repeatedly said is the definition of speed in the rules. So you're accusing me of not knowing what speed is, and then immediately telling me it is exactly what I said it is?
Despite the poor grammar that's used in some of the explanations about how movement works, by definition speed is not something that can be used up or decreased merely by moving.
Except the definition of speed as how far you can move in a round doesn't say that. Meanwhile other rules say explicitly that it is used, spent or deducted:
On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed. You can use as much or as little of your speed as you like on your turn, following the rules here. Your movement can include jumping, climbing, and swimming. These different modes of movement can be combined with walking, or they can constitute your entire move. However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving.
You can break up your movement on your turn, using some of your speed before and after your action. For example, if you have a speed of 30 feet, you can move 10 feet, take your action, and then move 20 feet.
If you have more than one speed, such as your walking speed and a flying speed, you can switch back and forth between your speeds during your move. Whenever you switch, subtract the distance you've already moved from the new speed. The result determines how much farther you can move. If the result is 0 or less, you can't use the new speed during the current move.
Is it really too much to ask for people to read the movement rules before trying to tell others what they mean? I've read them, and I've more than proven that by this point.
You are welcome to think of speed as a limit rather than a resource, but not only is that not what the rules say, it doesn't change the outcome; if you have a speed of 30 feet and move 20 feet then you only have 10 feet of speed remaining regardless of whether you look at that as "I moved 20 feet out of a maximum of 30 feet so I can move another 10 feet" or "I spent 20 feet of my 30 feet of speed so I only have 10 feet left", it's the same exact thing.
Either way if you move another 10 feet you've used it all, and can't move any further without gaining either more speed (so you have more to use), or gaining more movement (so you can move beyond the normal limit).
Your choice of speed or movement are finite, and unless an effect says you get more, you don't. Being capable of moving when you normally can't, is not the same as having more movement or speed to actually move with.
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you can Ready a Dash action and despite the arguments otherwise, this would indeed work as expected -- when your reaction is triggered during someone else's turn, you'd gain the extra movement
And do what with it? Yes you have the extra movement, but the Dash itself doesn't actually include moving as part of the action; Dashing works on your own turn because you can take an action and move as part of your turn, so after increasing your movement for the turn, you can then proceed to use it.
But the Ready action explicitly only lets you move or take an action, not both. To move as part of a readied action you'd need to ready some kind of action that includes moving; there are some, but as far as I'm aware none that also give you extra movement, so you'd still be limited by speed.
The only way Dashing as a reaction would allow more movement is some other effect enabled you to move, e.g- a Battle Master's Commander's Strike on the same turn, but that's a very complicated way to do it, and it's not actually clear what your movement would be since the dash gives you a bonus movement equal to your speed, but if you've already spent all of it you don't have any to add.
The Dash action explicitly gives you extra movement, the Ready action doesn't; all the latter does is let you move as a reaction rather than on your own turn? Your speed is still finite, if you've already used some of it you don't get anymore unless something says so.
No, you're still using the term "speed" incorrectly.
No, I'm not not, and this now the second time you've tried to accuse me of not knowing what words mean. I'm going to ask you once, and once only, to stop accusing me of being incapable of understanding basic words, or I'm introducing you to my blocklist and reporting you for abuse.
Speed has a very exact definition within the rules. It's "the distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round".
Which is exactly what I have repeatedly said is the definition of speed in the rules. So you're accusing me of not knowing what speed is, and then immediately telling me it is exactly what I said it is?
Despite the poor grammar that's used in some of the explanations about how movement works, by definition speed is not something that can be used up or decreased merely by moving.
Except the definition of speed as how far you can move in a round doesn't say that. Meanwhile other rules say explicitly that it is used, spent or deducted:
On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed. You can use as much or as little of your speed as you like on your turn, following the rules here. Your movement can include jumping, climbing, and swimming. These different modes of movement can be combined with walking, or they can constitute your entire move. However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving.
You can break up your movement on your turn, using some of your speed before and after your action. For example, if you have a speed of 30 feet, you can move 10 feet, take your action, and then move 20 feet.
If you have more than one speed, such as your walking speed and a flying speed, you can switch back and forth between your speeds during your move. Whenever you switch, subtract the distance you've already moved from the new speed. The result determines how much farther you can move. If the result is 0 or less, you can't use the new speed during the current move.
Is it too much to ask for people to read the movement rules?
You are welcome to think of speed as a limit rather than a resource, but not only is that not what the rules say, it doesn't change the outcome; if you have a speed of 30 feet and move 20 feet then you only have 10 feet of speed remaining regardless of whether you look at that as "I moved 20 feet out of a maximum of 30 feet so I can move another 10 feet" or "I spent 20 feet of my 30 feet of speed so I only have 10 feet left", it's the same exact thing.
Either way if you move another 10 feet you've used it all, and can't move any further without gaining either more speed (so it is once again higher), or gaining more movement (so you can move beyond the normal limit).
Your choice of speed or movement are finite, and unless an effect says you get more, you don't. Being capable of moving when you normally can't, is not the same as having more movement or speed to actually move with.
When an ability tells you you can move up to your speed... thatbis the ability granting you the additional movement.
You don't need to find the additional movement from the discarded scraps of movement you didn't use leftover from your turn.
The ability itself is granting you permissive text that gives you whatever move it is telling you to make.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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So you're saying a vampire may use it's Legendary Action: Move for nothing if it moved on it's turn ? #lame a chance it doesn't work this way loll
Dragon Wing Attack do provoke an Opportunity Attack according to official ruling from Sage Advice Compendium;
Ok nail in the coffin time, from Sage Advice Compendium official ruling to lay down your travel pace ruling in combat once and for all;
If it doesn't work that way then it should be easy to prove why?
I never said it didn't; the vampire's Move legendary action doesn't. A dragon's Wing Attack can function like a pseudo-disengage, but only in the sense it can knock targets prone so they're less likely to hit if they make opportunity attacks (similar to a Monk using Patient Defence rather than Step of the Wind).
Literally nothing I have quoted has come from the travel pace rules; travel pace is how far you can travel in an hour/a day etc.
The rule that states that speed is how far you can move in a round comes from the Adventuring (Movement) rules, specifically the section on Speed, first paragraph:
Travel Pace is a sub-section beneath that.
Everything under the adventuring section is part of the general rules of D&D 5e, the combat section doesn't replace it, because it includes things like falling, jumping, environmental visibility etc.
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You brought up some good points along the way, but I think it's time to throw in the towel on this one.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
This was back on Post #57 and was by far the best explanation of what's going on with how the target of the spell in this OP moves.
A big source of confusion across multiple threads is that people are misinterpreting the term "speed". Speed is a rate of travel. One common English language usage of "speed" can be found in physics textbooks as something like: speed = (distance traveled) / (time interval), a nonnegative scalar quantity. The speed listed for a creature represents the maximum that it can move in a round. A creature may opt to use less movement than the maximum in that round. It's the movement that is used, not the speed. This is explained in the rules as follows:
The movement is used during the creature's turn (emphasis given within the rules):
Admittedly, the next couple of references in the rules might also be causing confusion -- it would have been better if the author used a term like "maximum movement" instead of "speed" here:
and here:
and also here:
It does work by using the term "speed", but to do so with the correct interpretation you are expected to flip to other sections of the rules and put things together, which is often the case with many aspects of 5e rules. For example, if we refer back to my first blockquote above, we already have the term speed defined: "which is the distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round". If we wanted to be really wordy, we could substitute the definition of speed for wherever the term speed is mentioned above, such as:
-- On your turn, you can move a distance up to your [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ] and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first. Your [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ] --sometimes called your walking speed--is noted on your character sheet.
-- On your turn, you can move a distance up to your [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ]. You can use as much or as little of your [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ] as you like on your turn
-- However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ] until it is used up or until you are done moving.
-- You can break up your movement on your turn, using some of your [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ] before and after your action. For example, if you have a [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ] of 30 feet, you can move 10 feet, take your action, and then move 20 feet.
The next couple of sections are written more clearly:
In the section on the Prone condition, the first usage of the term "speed" is once again problematic and is easily misinterpreted, but after that it's pretty clearly written by using the term "movement" instead. Once again, if we simply substitute the game's definition of speed wherever it uses the term speed, it becomes very wordy but the meaning becomes more clear:
The above could be rewritten as:
"You can drop prone without using any of your [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ]. Standing up takes more effort; doing so costs an amount of movement equal to half your [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ]. For example, if your [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ] is 30 feet, you must spend 15 feet of movement to stand up. You can't stand up if you don't have enough movement left or if your [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ] is 0."
This next one is particularly poorly written. It's easy to see how people could think that the speed is something that is decreasing as movement is used when reading something like this if they weren't familiar with the definition of speed as given elsewhere in the rules:
Again, it's not the speed that gets used, it's the movement. It's just poorly written. Substitute the game's definition of speed and what the author is trying to say becomes a bit more clear. (an exercise for the reader)
Ok, let's get to some other arguments in this thread. There was some discussion about expenditure and replenishment of action-economy-type resources. I often see an argument that your actions or movement don't get replenished until the start of your next turn. Or likewise, that you "can't" use movement or actions when it's not your turn. But there isn't actually a rule that says this. (Sorry J.C. -- the tweet about how you cannot use movement when it is not your turn is incorrect. There is no rule against doing so.) The only limitations given in the rules are that your speed defines the maximum distance walked in a round, aka how much movement you can use before it needs to be replenished (but when during the round is it replenished? That's undefined.) and that "when you take a reaction, you can't take another one until the start of your next turn." In the case of movement, it's implied that all used up "normal" movement is replenished every round, but that's not the only time that movement resources can be gained. Clearly, in addition to this "normal" movement it is possible to also acquire "extra" movement, such as when you take a Dash action:
However, it's a turn based game and based on how it naturally flows, there usually isn't any mechanism for being able to actually do anything if it's not your turn. The common exception is during a reaction. During a reaction you can do certain specific activities, including using movement, even when it is not your turn. Likewise, if you are the target of a spell that says that you can or must do something during some moment when it is not your turn, then you can or must do so.
Here is a relevant section of the Ready action:
Since we know from above that speed is defined as "the distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round" and is therefore a parameter that is the maximum end of a range and is not a resource that is used up while moving, then we can interpret the text describing the Ready action to be providing a fresh amount of "extra" movement resource equal to your speed (similar to what would be gained with a Dash action) that can be used immediately (during the triggered reaction).
With the spell in question from the OP, a similar thing is happening:
Similar to the Dash action or the Ready action's triggered reaction, the target of this spell gains "extra" movement that must be used in full immediately during this reaction that is triggered by the spell.
Jeez, I've unwittingly created a monster. Look, here's what I think. This: move as far as its speed allows isn't some sort of magical mumbo-jumbo that doesn't mean anything. I also see zero reason to interpret that as [move your max speed away from the caster]. There's simply no basis for that interpretation. Not in the language presented.
To my mind, that literally means: Move as far as you can, depending on how much movement you have left. As far as your Speed - that section of your character sheet - allows, dependent upon how far you already moved this round. Also, by extension, if you haven't moved yet this round, well, this is your movement. Sorry.
That's that I get from the language used. I'm positive that's not what they wanted it to mean. But that's the language they used for it. Because being totally un-ambiguous is really hard.
I just thought it was funny - the spell (to my mind) is much too powerful if used in that way =D
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
You're still making a logical leap here that this must mean "extra" movement in the case of the Ready action or similar; purely in terms of whether you can move or not, it doesn't actually matter if speed is a resource that is consumed (ticks down) or if it's just an upper limit on movement (ticks up until movement greater/equal than speed), because there's no reason to assume that moving out of sequence lets you exceed the limit on speed for the round.
Out of all of these things only the Dash action actually says that you gain additional movement:
It's providing an explicit override to the normal limit, with a clear example of that happening. None of the rest of these things give us any language from which to assume they function in the same way, so to do so is purely invention.
It may well be how they're intended to work, but the rules don't say so. Again, the 5e movement rules are very poorly written (and structured).
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It this section you quote in the combat section? No then it doesn't belong. It's in nthe Movement section and even says:
The illogical leap is applying this as a limit and insisting that all moving abilities are subject to that limit in combat when you have not only Dev's tweet that says you have no off turn movement as a limit but Sage Advice like for the Harengon's Rabbit Hop official ruling that clearly say so but you prefer to keep claiming it's bad ruling or unofficial.
Ask yourself this, why would an Orc use a bonus action on it's turn to move up to its speed if it needed to have movement left to do so? He could just move normally and save a bonus action ☺
It absolutely belongs, because the combat rules apply on top of the adventuring rules, they're not mutually exclusive; otherwise it would be impossible to fall, jump or have obscured vision etc. during combat. If your argument relies on ignoring rules that don't suit your narrative, then it's not a valid argument in Rules As Written.
No, the illogical leap is deciding that a rule that clearly and unambiguously states that speed is how far you can move in a round is somehow irrelevant to an issue of how movement and speed work.
As I have already pointed out repeatedly, dev tweets are not official rulings in RAW; they are frequently contradictory, sometimes wrong, and often state things that the rules do not. And it doesn't matter if the devs intend for characters to have no movement outside of their turn, because a) the rules do not say that and b) having no movement outside of your turn would mean you can't move outside of your turn, not that you can do so for free.
For the Harengon Rabbit Hop trait, as I have already pointed out, the reason the Sage Advice exists for it is entirely because the rule was poorly written; if the rule was written correctly in the first place they wouldn't have to add detail that the rule itself lacks. Again, all the trait says is you can jump as a bonus action, but in the rules jumping is movement, so the trait provides no reason it should function in the way they describe.
Again, it may well be the intention that movement as part of any action, bonus action, or reaction (i.e- not part of your normal movement on your turn) is always free, but the rules never say this is the case so any supplementary rulings that suggests this are at best admissions that the 5e movement rules are currently incorrect as written, but for a Rules As Written issue that's irrelevant if the devs can't be arsed to actually fix it.
As I have already answered you, it wouldn't, because the aggressive trait does nothing as written. It doesn't matter that the intention is obviously to function like a bonus action Dash (towards an enemy), because that's not what the rule says. This is far from the only example of problematic RAW on rules where the intention is obvious enough to just ignore it and move on, but it doesn't change the fact the RAW says what it says.
You should ask yourself a different question; do you believe that every rule written by the devs is perfect? Because they provably aren't; they are only human, and they make mistakes, and strange design decisions and don't use language consistently or even correctly in some cases. So why should you expect that the rules as you interpret them must perfectly match what is written?
There is a reason nobody outside of Adventurer's League plays the Rules As Written, because the 5e rules are frankly a mess; they contain just enough hints at intention for us to get by, but there are plenty of cases where it's not clear how things are supposed to work, or where "clarifications" by the devs directly contradict what was written. It should not be controversial to point out that the 5e movement rules are bad, but knowing that doesn't change what they say, only how we choose to use them, but that's not what matters in RAW.
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The Orc monsterh is not discontinued by Volo's Guide it's not a player's race it's a monster with it's own trait that never been errata because the trait works fine as written. The rules aren't perfect, but when used in their respective context they work better the Adventuring Movement rules are not to be used in combat as a sort of limiter, that's why an official ruling says travel pace aren't used in combat. I'm not as critical of 5E to my experience it's running fine despite not being perfect ruleset, but again which edition was? Even OneDnD won't be, but i'm certain movement using other ressources also won't cost movement or be limited by your speed in a round during combat.
I've already corrected my post, but the trait still doesn't "work fine as written"; just because we can understand what it's intended to do doesn't mean the rule couldn't (or shouldn't) actually say what it means. You yourself insisted this is a Rules As Written discussion, but you keep referring to things outside of the Rules As Written, and things that don't say what you want them to say.
As I have already pointed out; the definition of speed as how far you can move in one round IS NOT PART OF THE TRAVEL PACE RULES.
Kindly stop trying to excise rules you don't like just because you'd rather not have to deal with them; if you're going to keep insisting on ignoring one of the core rules then there's no point in continuing, because you're not arguing within the 5e RAW in that case.
If that's how it's intended to work then the rules need to actually say so; even if the developers forget to include something, or use unclear language, they can (and should) issue errata to fix rules problems, not force us to rely on tweets that often don't actually help (because they're usually answering only a single specific question, and don't always manage that). Even official Sage Advice isn't that helpful, because often it only begs the question of why a proper errata hasn't been issued.
I don't expect a ruleset to be perfect, but there are ways they can make them a lot simpler and clearer; keeping all the movement rules in one place would be a start, being a lot more ordered and logical in how they set them out and define them would likewise make a huge difference. If they're going to use the terms "movement" and "speed" they need to be clear what they mean in gameplay terms. In general it would help if they realised that "idiomatic" (natural rules) are not a good way to write rules in the first place, but there seems to not be much hope of that; natural language and rules don't go well together because in a ruleset terms need to mean specific things or more and more goes down to interpretation.
If movement on your turn is different to movement as part of an action, bonus action or reaction then the rules need to say so, because in RAW a rule can only do what it says it does; extra movement is exactly that, extra, so it would need to say that it's extra movement in order to occur (as Dash does), because the default is you can only move up to your speed in a round.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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The rules as written don't refer to deducting each part of your move from your speed when off turn, but on your turn. If you think the rules say so somewhere please quote them.
And yet, pages upon pages of basis for that interpretation have been presented in this very thread. Speed is defined in the rules: "the distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round". Saying "max speed" is sort of redundant -- the term speed refers to a maximum, by definition. Therefore, "move as far as its speed allows" means that if the target creature's speed is 30 feet, then it must move 30 feet.
Again, as I did in a previous post, we can simply substitute the definition for speed to make the rule more clear without changing the meaning: "move as far as its [ distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round ] allows". Or, in the case of a specific target with a speed of 30 feet this becomes: "move as far as its [ 30 feet ] allows". Yes, the grammar isn't great, but that's what it says.
This is incorrect for two reasons. First, it doesn't work that way. There is no mention of "depending on how much movement you have left" or "dependent upon how far you already moved this round". There is only mention of speed, which has a precise definition (see above). It says "move as far as its speed allows" and that's it.
Secondly, even if it worked as you're suggesting, you can't have it both ways. You can't use up currently unused movement but then also use up the movement for your next turn, it's one or the other. Unless you are suggesting that movement gets replenished at the beginning of a round instead of at the beginning or your Turn? As I mentioned previously, this detail is undefined in the rules but a DM should probably make it clear in advance that that's how they interpret the timing of the replenishment.
This is a good argument. In the case of the Ready action, the rule says:
So indeed the exact phrasing used is different than in the Dash action, which explicitly grants "extra" movement. In the case of the Ready action, whether or not you want to refer to that as additional or "extra" movement that must be used during the reaction or if you want to instead just say that it's just a thing that you can do during the reaction . . . to me that's just sort of whatever.
This is a great example and I agree 100%. An orc can use up its movement and then can also use its "Aggressive" bonus action to "move up to its speed". The term speed is defined (see above), and the speed of an orc is also defined in its stat block (30 feet). Therefore, an orc can move 30 feet and then use a bonus action to move another 30 feet. This is clear.
I'll make a minor objection to this logic. The rules describe a bunch of things that can be done during your turn. But it never says that these things can only be done on your turn or that they cannot be done when it is not your turn. Therefore, according to the rules, you can actually do all of the same things that you can do during your turn when it is not your turn. This includes taking actions and using movement. The catch, however, is that in a turn-based game it's really hard to ever have an opportunity to do anything when it is not your turn because, well, it's not your turn! However, there are some exceptions. Legendary actions are possible precisely because it is possible to take actions when it is not your turn. However, the main exception is using a reaction. But whenever you use a reaction, the things that you can do during a specific reaction are generally pretty tightly defined because your character is literally reacting to something specific. In the case of the Ready action, the action that you take during your reaction is defined in advance, but can be any action. For example, you can ready a Dash action and if that triggers your character would gain extra movement for the current turn -- but the current turn would NOT be your turn. In the case of DW, the activity performed during your reaction is defined as "move as far as its speed allows away from you". Just like you can take actions when it is not your turn, you can also move when it is not your turn. To me, the spell effect in DW grants additional movement that is gained and immediately fully used. But if you all want to argue that this is not really using movement per se but instead is just another action, defined by the spell effect, that can (and must) be done during the reaction, then I'd concede that point since like I said before, that's just kind of whatever.
No you can't move or take action off turn unless noted otherwise, these are done on your turn.
If you could Ready would be unecessary.
That is not how exception based game works
It literally says so in your own quote that you deduct movement from speed. 🤦♂️
If you have a speed of 30 feet and deduct 20 feet from that then what do you think is your remaining speed for the round? Unlimited? Infinite? A billion feet? No, it's 10 feet, because that's how deducting works.
While you can only normally move during your own turn, we're told explicitly (and unambiguously) that speed is how far you can move in a round, so it doesn't matter when the move happens, so your speed is reduced until the start of a new round. I know you want to ignore this rule because it doesn't suit your narrative, but the alternative is that you have 30 feet of movement, spend it in your turn, and it never, ever comes back so your average character can move 30 feet in their entire lifetime. Do you really prefer that? 😂
The rules literally say these things and I'm getting real sick of having to repeat what the rules themselves say over and over again. Seriously, I'm not inventing any wording here; it's all in the damn rules.
I'm not sure what you're saying here?
The Dash action explicitly gives you extra movement, the Ready action doesn't; all the latter does is let you move as a reaction rather than on your own turn? Your speed is still finite, if you've already used some of it you don't get anymore unless something says so.
The benefit of moving as a reaction is being able to do-so out of the normal sequence; for example, a Rogue might be hiding just outside a door they want to move through, but there's a guard just inside the door. Since you know they're heading out, you Ready your move until after the guard has exited the door. This way you can spend your movement for that round on doing it, rather than having to wait until your next turn.
You can also do things reactively rather than proactively; if you think an enemy might move towards you, you could move away on your turn, but if they move somewhere else instead you might find yourself wasting movement on your next turn chasing after them. If instead you Ready movement to occur only if that enemy moves towards you, then it only happens if it needs to (and if you change your mind you don't have to spend the reaction).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Someone catch me up on this tangent. If I'm reading this right we're debating wether or not some offhand statement in the Adventuring chapter applies to a completely different aspect of the game that is instead covered by the Combat chapter?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The thing is -- that is never stated anywhere in the rules. We're pretty much arguing semantics but I disagree with you on that. Again, there's a section of rules that describes things that can be done on your turn such as movement and action, but it never says that these activities can only be done on your turn or that you cannot do these things when it is not your turn. So, it IS legal to do so. The catch is that, mechanically, there's usually never any practical way to actually do it because you typically need it to be your turn to act at all. But legendary actions could not exist without it being legal to move or act when it is not your turn. But they do exist, so it must be legal to do so. It is also common to do so as part of a reaction, but in those cases the choices for how to move or act are usually predetermined since the character is reacting to something during his reaction.
As far as movement goes, a creature could be given a legendary action to Dash. The dash would operate correctly in that you gain movement for that turn which can then be expended during that turn which does not have to be your turn. Similarly, as mentioned before, you can Ready a Dash action and despite the arguments otherwise, this would indeed work as expected -- when your reaction is triggered during someone else's turn, you'd gain the extra movement and then you would be able to use that movement immediately during the reaction. There is no rule anywhere that suggests that it would not work this way. Of course, the debate could be avoided by simply using the Ready action to "choose to move up to your speed in response to [ the trigger ]. This allows you to move a distance equal to your speed even when your normal movement has already been used because that's what the rule says you can do.
No, you're still using the term "speed" incorrectly. Speed has a very exact definition within the rules. It's "the distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round". Despite the poor grammar that's used in some of the explanations about how movement works, by definition speed is not something that can be used up or decreased merely by moving. It is a statistic. Basically, a creature's speed is whatever it says in the stat block. If something says that you move a distance equal to your speed, whether it's phrased like in Dash or it's phrased like in Ready it makes no difference -- you move a distance equal to what it says for speed in your stat block. In the case of Dash you get "extra" movement that can be used like normal movement. In the case of Ready or DW an argument can be made that you don't use movement, you just perform the described activity which is that you move a distance equal to what it says in your stat block. I'm still ok with assuming that these things do grant actual additional movement that gets used, but that distinction really doesn't matter.
And do what with it? Yes you have the extra movement, but the Dash itself doesn't actually include moving as part of the action; Dashing works on your own turn because you can take an action and move as part of your turn, so after increasing your movement for the turn, you can then proceed to use it.
But the Ready action explicitly only lets you move or take an action, not both. To move as part of a readied action you'd need to ready some kind of action that includes moving; there are some, but as far as I'm aware none that also give you extra movement, so you'd still be limited by speed.
The only way Dashing as a reaction would allow more movement is some other effect enabled you to move, e.g- a Battle Master's Commander's Strike on the same turn, but that's a very complicated way to do it, and it's not actually clear what your movement would be since the dash gives you a bonus movement equal to your speed, but if you've already spent all of it you don't have any to add.
No, I'm not not, and this now the second time you've tried to accuse me of not knowing what words mean. I'm going to ask you once, and once only, to stop accusing me of being incapable of understanding basic words, or I'm introducing you to my blocklist and reporting you for abuse.
Which is exactly what I have repeatedly said is the definition of speed in the rules. So you're accusing me of not knowing what speed is, and then immediately telling me it is exactly what I said it is?
Except the definition of speed as how far you can move in a round doesn't say that. Meanwhile other rules say explicitly that it is used, spent or deducted:
Combat (Movement and Position):
Combat (Breaking Up Your Move):
Combat (Using Different Speeds):
Is it really too much to ask for people to read the movement rules before trying to tell others what they mean? I've read them, and I've more than proven that by this point.
You are welcome to think of speed as a limit rather than a resource, but not only is that not what the rules say, it doesn't change the outcome; if you have a speed of 30 feet and move 20 feet then you only have 10 feet of speed remaining regardless of whether you look at that as "I moved 20 feet out of a maximum of 30 feet so I can move another 10 feet" or "I spent 20 feet of my 30 feet of speed so I only have 10 feet left", it's the same exact thing.
Either way if you move another 10 feet you've used it all, and can't move any further without gaining either more speed (so you have more to use), or gaining more movement (so you can move beyond the normal limit).
Your choice of speed or movement are finite, and unless an effect says you get more, you don't. Being capable of moving when you normally can't, is not the same as having more movement or speed to actually move with.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
When an ability tells you you can move up to your speed... thatbis the ability granting you the additional movement.
You don't need to find the additional movement from the discarded scraps of movement you didn't use leftover from your turn.
The ability itself is granting you permissive text that gives you whatever move it is telling you to make.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.