I would start with coins. If you assume pure metal, and the conversion of 50/lb then gold is worth 50gp/lb, platinum would be worth 500gp/lb. If you assume Mithril is at least as rare as platinum then 500+gp/lb would be appropriate. If that is too expensive when considering weights, keep in mind mithril is 1/2 the weight to create items (so 65 lb steel armor would take 32.5lb mithril), and if that still seems too expensive you can make adjustments using alloys varying the percentage of mithril to steel until you reach a reasonable value
None of the published settings actually have anything approaching a working economic system so trying to play with GP values probably isn’t that great a starting point for evaluating costs value ( not that anything is great for that). Further I seriously doubt that there is any homebrew world that manages to do both mundane and magical crafting in an economically viable way ( maybe AEDorsay’s, but …). I know mine doesn’t and I tried. Reality is it’s upto your local DM and all we can do is advises and point out things to consider. The idea of Mithril was created by Tolkien during WWII - before worked titanium was more than a sci- Fi fantasy. Tolkien certainly wasn’t into the economics of it at most he had 2-5 actual Mithral objects in all his stories (Frodo’s mail shirt, at least one of the elven rings, possibly the one ring, a chain that Galadriel gave to either Frodo or Samwise (can’t remember exactly) and possibly Sting and the other 2-3 “barrow swords”, all of ancient manufacture and considered basically priceless. I can’t speak for others but my investigation found that given the described properties the best real world analog for mithril is titanium. I have described the ores and basic processing of titanium (and steel) in posts above. These are sufficient to explain why Mithril anything is magical and expensive - essentially to the point that almost any price is reasonable and that crafting it by a PC should be nigh impossible- especially if they are not doing a lot of item specific adventuring first. In the end tho it’s upto your DM, at best we can make suggestions of what we think should be involved but that is it.
I go back to the basic premise Mithral is of magical nature and only ever found in one mine that has been closed and inhabited by orcs so it’s not cost but availability and basically there is no more being brought to market. Add to that that only one elf smith was ever able to master crafting it into rings even Sauron could not and needed to deceive Calebrimborne to make the rings. Otherwise, the only mithral and mithral products were made by Durin’s people. Now I am an old hard ass DM but finding any ore would take an extraordinary adventure into the old mine and then you better bring a master dwarf miner to mine it. As far as crafting it only the greatest and oldest Dwarf and Elf smiths can do so not characters who have not apprenticed for decades with the literally best smiths in the world.
I will argue none of the swords were mithral if so Tolkien would have mentioned that they were simply crafted by the most skilled mage smiths who imbued the swords with magical powers. By the time of the hobbit even these were extremely rare and available to high nobility. Think Viking swords they were so expensive and exquisit that you really couldn’t buy one and had to be both rich and of the highest station most warriors could only ever hope to have a good Axe.
I agree this skill basically means you can patch up and maintain basic gear. Not to mention there is a big difference between a smith making horse shoes, plows, axes and knives. Sword smith and armor makers are rare that’s why most soldiers were in leather with ring or scale attached strategically. In medieval times anything metal was insanely expensive.
to those who argue Mithral is titanium that ignores that there is only one vane of mithral of magical origin so weapons grade uranium is a closer equivalent - so yes it’s super cool but most magical armor is the highest quality Damascus steel enchanted by a high level wizard or god.
In Tolkien, yes, Moria was the primary source of Mithral - at least in terms of what was reported. It’s unclear if there were other sources ( probably smaller) in other Dwarven and elven locations. In the Forgotten Realms there is lore for a number of different Dwarven enclaves that have Mithril deposits. Elven deposits are considerably less obvious and may only exist in two places (Evermeet and Evereska). So mithral is somewhat more available there. Since I don’t know the lore for the other published worlds I can’t comment on them. In Tolkien the barrow swords are of Numenorian make.. it’s unclear if they were mithril or not but are magical in that sting reacts to nearby orcs by glowing and Merry/Pippin’s that stabbed the Nazgûl lord. There may have been mithril mines in Numenor or in Arnor that are now lost but we’re available to the Numenorians at some point but aren’t mentioned in the lore we have or they may just be “ magic swords”. I describe mithril as a titanium analog for several reasons: 1) in the ancient and medieval world titanium was unknown and hence even rarer than weapons grade uranium is today. 2) given Tolkien’s descriptions of Mithril titanium is an almost perfect match for it - silvery in color, 1/3 the weight of iron/steel, as strong or stronger than iron/steel, corrosion and temperature resistant and able to be alloyed with steel to a limited extent. Titanium and iron form a solid solution at high temperature with any ratio you want between the two. At lower temperature this separates into an iron alloy with no more than 1/3 titanium and a titanium alloy with no more than 1/3 iron in the material. 3) refining titanium (as described in an earlier post) is effectively a magical/alchemical process that normal smiths should not know. 4) mideveal (European) smiths barely knew how to steel iron and didn’t know how to melt it and cast it. Granted there were smiths in the Muslim and Indian “worlds” that were capable of making true crucible/wootz steel.( this probably where those Viking era Ulfbert swords originated) However titanium requires even higher temperatures to forge and work properly which corresponds to the one ring being forged at a (kimberlite) volcano with temperatures around 2800-3000 F matching the temps used for titanium. 5) because titanium alloys almost like iron you can use iron alloys as analogs for titanium alloys to differentiate between blade alloys ( high C, Mb, V, Cr) and armor alloys (med C, Ni, Co, Cr, W) . Essentially these factors put forging Mithril beyond the range of what a PC with the forging skill can even hope to do. So those that somehow find and recognize enough mithril ore are going to have to hire their forging done for them and that isn’t going to be cheap and is going to take some time - hope the PC survives long enough to actually get the weapon or armor they are paying for ( or the DM can sell them the armor the smith forged for the previous PC that didn’t survive - at an exorbitant price.
Wildbill - mechanics and meteorology aside I think we agree no PC is going to find mithral to make his own armor yet allow forge it himself in his likely lifetime.
but I would offer a solution - an excellent smith might fashion some hand holds for the back and turn that half plate into a decent +3 shield.
I hope this issue of yours does get resolved by now. Back to what I think: (I am going to shorten as many things and words as possible)
On the other players protesting the price, I just have to ask: Are they the DMs of the campaign as well? I am guessing what you did was discussing the price openly with the DM…if you did, that was how the whole drama started. As a DM, there are things you have to discuss with your players privately. Such matter is one of them. If your DM did not take the initiative to stop you from publicly discussing that, well, I don’t see why it is up to you as a player to ask the question here. I also don’t see why the other players should be protesting the pricing. Their past experiences and opinions from other games should not be affecting their emotions to a point that they have to attack the pricing done by the DM, fair to say the DM has the final call. They can suggest a pricing, whether those seem reasonable or not, DM HAS THE LAST CALL.
On every other answers provided, there are all GREAT REFERENCES to work on that pricing. Yet none seems to be a perfect solution. Here’s why: 1. GREAT REFERENCES. Rules and references are all guidelines to running the game. But who runs the game and who plays the game? Your DM, You, and your fellow players. And so 2. What exactly are the goals of any TTRPG? To create a fun, exciting yet memorable narrative for involved parties. Hence sticking ONLY to the rules and references till the end will always result a tragedy.
For the answer you are looking for: any price the DM deems reasonable is the right price. Do keep in mind if you will be a future DM, you do need to use ALL of those GREAT REFERENCES provided from every other users here, thank you to all those information. However, let me now share with you a few cases that will provide insights beyond references and rules:
Case 1: A new player on a level 3 character asking a smith on buying a mithral plate armour. His character has little adventuring experience and he just finished some quests that gave him 1000GP. DM told player as the smith, “Where ya got that from son? I never heard of that in my life. Are ya sane boy? This guy needs to see the priest!” Reason: let’s be realistic…it’s Uncommon…how does an inexperienced adventurer know sth like that?
Case 2: An experienced player on a level 5 character who has recently failed multiple stealth checks and almost caused party wipe, after suffering from his recent near-death experiences, his party returned to a city. They had earned over 3000GP till this point. During their shopping excursion, the scarred paladin asked a smith for a mithral plate armour. DM told the player, “We don’t have that here. But we can put in an order for you if you want. It will take about 14 days to ship it here, perhaps you are staying in the city for a bit longer. It will cost you 2000GP.” Reason: Level 5 is considered to be decently experienced adventurer; obviously the character is asking for something that solves his problem; 2000GP is a fair price to ask for; 2000GP is a big decision for the party to call for, hence tension, drama and RP! And he is in a decent big city, his party can spend some time exploring and enjoying the city too as a way to recover from traumas!
Case 3: An inexperienced player on a level 8 fighter asking for mithral plate armour from a smith after finishing some quests netting over 5000GP till this point. His character is beefy, not agile at all. DM told the player as the smith, “We have some better armours here. Are you sure that is what you want? I don’t see why a man such as yourself be wearing that. And one of the better plate armours (Plate, +1) costs 3000GP.” Reason: Clearly the player is not making a better choice for himself given his inexperience; suggesting better offer as a mean to help/guide new players; 3000GP is a fair price for a decent upgrade.
And finally, if I can speak to your DM directly, here are the advices I have before you apply any rulings and references:
1. DM knows its world well, so HOW RARE IS MITHRAL IN YOUR WORLD? Rarity is THE BEST CRITERIA for pricing. Therest is just comparing it to other pricings of goods you have already decided on.
2. Should the character know the EXISTENCE OF MITHRAL at this very moment?
3. Is it reasonable for the character to ask for that as an upgrade/purchase?
4. Should the vendor/smith in THIS LOCATION have such goods AVAILABLE AT THAT VERY INSTANCE?
5. How does THIS LOCATION price its goods in general? Do the vendors here OVERCHARGE to profit? Do they sell STOLEN GOODS at lower prices? ARE THERE NATURAL DISASTERS OR OTHER FACTORS IN-GAME THAT AFFECT PRICINGS IN THAT AREA AT THIS VERY INSTANCE?
6. What is a fair and affordable price for such a reasonable upgrade that would GIVE OPPORTUNITY to more roleplaying/characters’ interactions?
(Yes, all cases above may or may not have applied these advices; I am not the DM for every case)
There are other cases I can share, frankly, this should be enough. I like to remind you if your case is closed, do change the title of your post. I would be surprised if that took nearly a year to resolve. No one is suggesting the right price without the REFERENCES your DM holds. Not even me.
(And I am back to my annual leave of NOT USING THIS FORUM)
(Looking for answers to my questions; worked out the solutions by answering more questions 🤪)
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Location/Timezone: Iseikai Time//EMT (Emilia-tan), but not MIT.
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I would start with coins. If you assume pure metal, and the conversion of 50/lb then gold is worth 50gp/lb, platinum would be worth 500gp/lb. If you assume Mithril is at least as rare as platinum then 500+gp/lb would be appropriate. If that is too expensive when considering weights, keep in mind mithril is 1/2 the weight to create items (so 65 lb steel armor would take 32.5lb mithril), and if that still seems too expensive you can make adjustments using alloys varying the percentage of mithril to steel until you reach a reasonable value
None of the published settings actually have anything approaching a working economic system so trying to play with GP values probably isn’t that great a starting point for evaluating costs value ( not that anything is great for that). Further I seriously doubt that there is any homebrew world that manages to do both mundane and magical crafting in an economically viable way ( maybe AEDorsay’s, but …). I know mine doesn’t and I tried. Reality is it’s upto your local DM and all we can do is advises and point out things to consider. The idea of Mithril was created by Tolkien during WWII - before worked titanium was more than a sci- Fi fantasy. Tolkien certainly wasn’t into the economics of it at most he had 2-5 actual Mithral objects in all his stories (Frodo’s mail shirt, at least one of the elven rings, possibly the one ring, a chain that Galadriel gave to either Frodo or Samwise (can’t remember exactly) and possibly Sting and the other 2-3 “barrow swords”, all of ancient manufacture and considered basically priceless. I can’t speak for others but my investigation found that given the described properties the best real world analog for mithril is titanium. I have described the ores and basic processing of titanium (and steel) in posts above. These are sufficient to explain why Mithril anything is magical and expensive - essentially to the point that almost any price is reasonable and that crafting it by a PC should be nigh impossible- especially if they are not doing a lot of item specific adventuring first. In the end tho it’s upto your DM, at best we can make suggestions of what we think should be involved but that is it.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I go back to the basic premise Mithral is of magical nature and only ever found in one mine that has been closed and inhabited by orcs so it’s not cost but availability and basically there is no more being brought to market. Add to that that only one elf smith was ever able to master crafting it into rings even Sauron could not and needed to deceive Calebrimborne to make the rings. Otherwise, the only mithral and mithral products were made by Durin’s people. Now I am an old hard ass DM but finding any ore would take an extraordinary adventure into the old mine and then you better bring a master dwarf miner to mine it. As far as crafting it only the greatest and oldest Dwarf and Elf smiths can do so not characters who have not apprenticed for decades with the literally best smiths in the world.
I will argue none of the swords were mithral if so Tolkien would have mentioned that they were simply crafted by the most skilled mage smiths who imbued the swords with magical powers. By the time of the hobbit even these were extremely rare and available to high nobility. Think Viking swords they were so expensive and exquisit that you really couldn’t buy one and had to be both rich and of the highest station most warriors could only ever hope to have a good Axe.
I agree this skill basically means you can patch up and maintain basic gear. Not to mention there is a big difference between a smith making horse shoes, plows, axes and knives. Sword smith and armor makers are rare that’s why most soldiers were in leather with ring or scale attached strategically. In medieval times anything metal was insanely expensive.
to those who argue Mithral is titanium that ignores that there is only one vane of mithral of magical origin so weapons grade uranium is a closer equivalent - so yes it’s super cool but most magical armor is the highest quality Damascus steel enchanted by a high level wizard or god.
In Tolkien, yes, Moria was the primary source of Mithral - at least in terms of what was reported. It’s unclear if there were other sources ( probably smaller) in other Dwarven and elven locations. In the Forgotten Realms there is lore for a number of different Dwarven enclaves that have Mithril deposits. Elven deposits are considerably less obvious and may only exist in two places (Evermeet and Evereska). So mithral is somewhat more available there. Since I don’t know the lore for the other published worlds I can’t comment on them. In Tolkien the barrow swords are of Numenorian make.. it’s unclear if they were mithril or not but are magical in that sting reacts to nearby orcs by glowing and Merry/Pippin’s that stabbed the Nazgûl lord. There may have been mithril mines in Numenor or in Arnor that are now lost but we’re available to the Numenorians at some point but aren’t mentioned in the lore we have or they may just be “ magic swords”.
I describe mithril as a titanium analog for several reasons:
1) in the ancient and medieval world titanium was unknown and hence even rarer than weapons grade uranium is today.
2) given Tolkien’s descriptions of Mithril titanium is an almost perfect match for it - silvery in color, 1/3 the weight of iron/steel, as strong or stronger than iron/steel, corrosion and temperature resistant and able to be alloyed with steel to a limited extent. Titanium and iron form a solid solution at high temperature with any ratio you want between the two. At lower temperature this separates into an iron alloy with no more than 1/3 titanium and a titanium alloy with no more than 1/3 iron in the material.
3) refining titanium (as described in an earlier post) is effectively a magical/alchemical process that normal smiths should not know.
4) mideveal (European) smiths barely knew how to steel iron and didn’t know how to melt it and cast it. Granted there were smiths in the Muslim and Indian “worlds” that were capable of making true crucible/wootz steel.( this probably where those Viking era Ulfbert swords originated) However titanium requires even higher temperatures to forge and work properly which corresponds to the one ring being forged at a (kimberlite) volcano with temperatures around 2800-3000 F matching the temps used for titanium.
5) because titanium alloys almost like iron you can use iron alloys as analogs for titanium alloys to differentiate between blade alloys ( high C, Mb, V, Cr) and armor alloys (med C, Ni, Co, Cr, W) .
Essentially these factors put forging Mithril beyond the range of what a PC with the forging skill can even hope to do. So those that somehow find and recognize enough mithril ore are going to have to hire their forging done for them and that isn’t going to be cheap and is going to take some time - hope the PC survives long enough to actually get the weapon or armor they are paying for ( or the DM can sell them the armor the smith forged for the previous PC that didn’t survive - at an exorbitant price.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I like how you explain things, I Agreed about what you have said
I like how you explain things, I Agreed about what you have said
Tutuapp
Wildbill - mechanics and meteorology aside I think we agree no PC is going to find mithral to make his own armor yet allow forge it himself in his likely lifetime.
but I would offer a solution - an excellent smith might fashion some hand holds for the back and turn that half plate into a decent +3 shield.
I hope this issue of yours does get resolved by now. Back to what I think: (I am going to shorten as many things and words as possible)
On the other players protesting the price, I just have to ask: Are they the DMs of the campaign as well? I am guessing what you did was discussing the price openly with the DM…if you did, that was how the whole drama started. As a DM, there are things you have to discuss with your players privately. Such matter is one of them. If your DM did not take the initiative to stop you from publicly discussing that, well, I don’t see why it is up to you as a player to ask the question here. I also don’t see why the other players should be protesting the pricing. Their past experiences and opinions from other games should not be affecting their emotions to a point that they have to attack the pricing done by the DM, fair to say the DM has the final call. They can suggest a pricing, whether those seem reasonable or not, DM HAS THE LAST CALL.
On every other answers provided, there are all GREAT REFERENCES to work on that pricing. Yet none seems to be a perfect solution. Here’s why: 1. GREAT REFERENCES. Rules and references are all guidelines to running the game. But who runs the game and who plays the game? Your DM, You, and your fellow players. And so 2. What exactly are the goals of any TTRPG? To create a fun, exciting yet memorable narrative for involved parties. Hence sticking ONLY to the rules and references till the end will always result a tragedy.
For the answer you are looking for: any price the DM deems reasonable is the right price. Do keep in mind if you will be a future DM, you do need to use ALL of those GREAT REFERENCES provided from every other users here, thank you to all those information. However, let me now share with you a few cases that will provide insights beyond references and rules:
Case 1: A new player on a level 3 character asking a smith on buying a mithral plate armour. His character has little adventuring experience and he just finished some quests that gave him 1000GP. DM told player as the smith, “Where ya got that from son? I never heard of that in my life. Are ya sane boy? This guy needs to see the priest!” Reason: let’s be realistic…it’s Uncommon…how does an inexperienced adventurer know sth like that?
Case 2: An experienced player on a level 5 character who has recently failed multiple stealth checks and almost caused party wipe, after suffering from his recent near-death experiences, his party returned to a city. They had earned over 3000GP till this point. During their shopping excursion, the scarred paladin asked a smith for a mithral plate armour. DM told the player, “We don’t have that here. But we can put in an order for you if you want. It will take about 14 days to ship it here, perhaps you are staying in the city for a bit longer. It will cost you 2000GP.” Reason: Level 5 is considered to be decently experienced adventurer; obviously the character is asking for something that solves his problem; 2000GP is a fair price to ask for; 2000GP is a big decision for the party to call for, hence tension, drama and RP! And he is in a decent big city, his party can spend some time exploring and enjoying the city too as a way to recover from traumas!
Case 3: An inexperienced player on a level 8 fighter asking for mithral plate armour from a smith after finishing some quests netting over 5000GP till this point. His character is beefy, not agile at all. DM told the player as the smith, “We have some better armours here. Are you sure that is what you want? I don’t see why a man such as yourself be wearing that. And one of the better plate armours (Plate, +1) costs 3000GP.” Reason: Clearly the player is not making a better choice for himself given his inexperience; suggesting better offer as a mean to help/guide new players; 3000GP is a fair price for a decent upgrade.
And finally, if I can speak to your DM directly, here are the advices I have before you apply any rulings and references:
1. DM knows its world well, so HOW RARE IS MITHRAL IN YOUR WORLD? Rarity is THE BEST CRITERIA for pricing. The rest is just comparing it to other pricings of goods you have already decided on.
2. Should the character know the EXISTENCE OF MITHRAL at this very moment?
3. Is it reasonable for the character to ask for that as an upgrade/purchase?
4. Should the vendor/smith in THIS LOCATION have such goods AVAILABLE AT THAT VERY INSTANCE?
5. How does THIS LOCATION price its goods in general? Do the vendors here OVERCHARGE to profit? Do they sell STOLEN GOODS at lower prices? ARE THERE NATURAL DISASTERS OR OTHER FACTORS IN-GAME THAT AFFECT PRICINGS IN THAT AREA AT THIS VERY INSTANCE?
6. What is a fair and affordable price for such a reasonable upgrade that would GIVE OPPORTUNITY to more roleplaying/characters’ interactions?
(Yes, all cases above may or may not have applied these advices; I am not the DM for every case)
There are other cases I can share, frankly, this should be enough. I like to remind you if your case is closed, do change the title of your post. I would be surprised if that took nearly a year to resolve. No one is suggesting the right price without the REFERENCES your DM holds. Not even me.
(And I am back to my annual leave of NOT USING THIS FORUM)
(Looking for answers to my questions; worked out the solutions by answering more questions 🤪)
Personal Signature should be creative and original:
Game: DD 5e
Group preferred: On the line
Experience: 4 yrs or so.
Location/Timezone: Iseikai Time//EMT (Emilia-tan), but not MIT.
Availability: When I sign up, I know I should be free.
Preferred role: Player. But honestly, I am into serious relationship.
Game style: I don't fill the chat with ooc.