I can see if you have a flight speed through magic or wings keeping a flying target in place, but how does this work if you're just hanging on to the eye stalks of a beholder?
Assuming you have your feet on the ground when grappling the hovering creature, you are just grabbing it and preventing it from flying away. Makes plenty of sense to me
If you somehow jumped and grappled without your feet on the ground, then well that isn't really covered in the rules anyways, so it's all up to the DM to improvise some rules that seem to make sense in the moment. I'd rule that you pull the creature down to the ground with you.
I've done the on-ground grapple and it was glorious. Dodged 10 eye rays before it rolled a Wis save against my barbarian.
Beholders are inherently able to hover. As such, hanging on by its eyestalks should generally not slow it to 0 speed or make it fall down. Also note the following:
A magical organ called the "levator magnus", located in the center of the body surrounded by the creature's brain, produces an influence that causes the beholder to float in the air. This allows it to move about slowly, up and down, left or right, forward or back at a slow speed, like that of a pacing man. No magical spell or device can negate this levitation, though beholders cannot resist the push of great winds.
- "The ecology of the Beholder" from Dragon Magazine #76 (1983)
If spells and devices cannot stop the beholder's hover ability, then a Medium humanoid barely hanging on certainly would not be able to either.
Careful using old editions to support 5e mechanics arguments. Flavor and rules are detached from each other, and even the universe's rules changed in between editions. Grappled is grappled, period, going by RAW.
Okay, but you also need to keep in mind that the amount of text describing the monster changes depending on which sourcebook you are using. In both 3rd and 5th edition, Beholders have the ability to hover. The parameters of that are not well defined in the 5E monster's block text, but it might well be in the Monster Manual somewhere.
Regardless, reducing speed to 0 does not prevent the Beholder from hovering. Technically, the Beholder cannot move but it can remain suspended in the air until it detaches the humanoid holding onto its eyestalks.
Frankly, I would say there should be enough discretionary grey area here that the DM gets to make the call.
If the DM makes any call, it's a house rule. The rules on grappling state that, when grappled, a creature's speed is 0. Further, flying creatures whose speeds are reduced to 0 fall to the ground unless they have a hover speed. Therefore: -Aarakocra Archer gets grappled: Falls -Beholder gets grappled: Speed reduced to 0, doesn't fall due to hover
There's really no wiggle room here...
Now, there's another mechanic that could be referenced. Climb onto a Bigger Creature.
Basically, it's an optional feature from the DMG for combat. I'm not gonna put the full text here, but it essentially is an Athletics or Acrobatics vs the creature's Acrobatics to jump on and hang onto it. Creature moves with the larger one and has advantage on attacks against it. Then the larger one can try to dislodge it with Athletics vs the smaller creature's Athletics or Acrobatics as an action.
The real question is, does any rule as written says a hovering creature prevent non-hovering creature from falling?
You lost me on this one. How would this work?
EDIT: If a flying creature with no hover ability grapples a flying creature that can hover, then both creatures remain in the air. The non-hovering creature is not grappled, and is not required to move in order to keep flying, as long as they COULD move. And of course, the grappled hovering creature has a speed of 0 while grappled and does not fall.
Where this gets fun is when the grappled hovering creature turns around and grapples the non-hovering flying creature. For a beholder, this would be tough for anatomical reasons, but let's put that aside. In this case, the non-hovering creature ALSO has a speed of 0 and immediately falls. This ends the grappled condition on the hovering creature as the grappler's distance suddenly exceeds its reach (bullet point 3), and the hovering creature is now free to move again. Good times.
If the DM makes any call, it's a house rule. The rules on grappling state that, when grappled, a creature's speed is 0. Further, flying creatures whose speeds are reduced to 0 fall to the ground unless they have a hover speed. Therefore:
At my table, a "house rule" is just that, an actual rule that gets written down, that everybody in the campaign can review and comment on (though the DM gets final say). A DM who makes a call in a specific situation to deal with an unusual circumstance is a ruling but not a house rule. If the unusual circumstance somehow becomes common enough as to warrant the ruling to be written down, then it becomes an actual house rule.
If a flying creature with no hover ability grapples a flying creature that can hover, then both creatures remain in the air. The non-hovering creature is not grappled, and is not required to move in order to keep flying, as long as they COULD move. And of course, the grappled hovering creature has a speed of 0 while grappled and does not fall.
It's exactly the point i made, the Hover trait doesn't say a creature grappling it doesn't fall, only it doesn't fall with speed of 0. Hover doesn't address other falling creature, neither does it protect them against forced movement and say they cam't be pushed, pulled or dragged in any direction. Can gravity from a falling creature drag a grappled hovering creature with it?
It boils down to a flying (hover) creaturedoesn't fall VS when you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you. But both facts need not be mutually exclusive, they could be occur.
EDIT The grappled condition ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell, which push. So at least pull or push breaks grapple. So is a fall also an effect that removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler? There lies the question.
Where this gets fun is when the grappled hovering creature turns around and grapples the non-hovering flying creature. For a beholder, this would be tough for anatomical reasons, but let's put that aside. In this case, the non-hovering creature ALSO has a speed of 0 and immediately falls. This ends the grappled condition on the hovering creature as the grappler's distance suddenly exceeds its reach (bullet point 3), and the hovering creature is now free to move again. Good times.
Now you lost me on this one ;) Why grappling your grappler would cause both to fall as a result of it? If the grappler doesn't fall because it's holding onto a creature hovering, wether it also get grappledand now its speed become 0 shouldn't cause the grapple to end, you don't need your speed to grapple someone. The grappledcondition ends if the grappler is incapacitated which it does not when grappled.
What I’m wondering is this: can you grapple a flying creature that has a hovering speed and still stay on the ground? Or can you somehow drag it down with your body weight? What would be the requirements for this? A size difference in your favor?
And can you use your weight to drag a hovering creature down while you are both in the air (let’s say a Rune Knight with his Giant’s Might active and Enlarge cast on him jumps up and grabs one of the eyestalks of the beholder)
What I’m wondering is this: can you grapple a flying creature that has a hovering speed and still stay on the ground? Or can you somehow drag it down with your body weight? What would be the requirements for this? A size difference in your favor?
The target of your grapple must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within your reach. When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you.
Height would possibly affect your reach. If you're a medium creature but you're 7'4", for instance, it might be justified to reach a creature that's 10 feet above the ground. That's where the DM has to make the call, since there's technically a space between you, but you're also partially in that air space.
Weight dragging the creature down isn't really a mechanic listed, though if you can pile enough weight onto a creature, one could see if the DM would consider the creature encumbered.
Height would possibly affect your reach. If you're a medium creature but you're 7'4", for instance, it might be justified to reach a creature that's 10 feet above the ground. That's where the DM has to make the call, since there's technically a space between you, but you're also partially in that air space.
Weight dragging the creature down isn't really a mechanic listed, though if you can pile enough weight onto a creature, one could see if the DM would consider the creature encumbered.
Reach is irrevekant to your height, it's based on size space and distance. 7'4'' Medium creatures still occupy and control a space of 5 feet and can attack target within 5 feet of them.
I could see height matter more outside combat where measuring distance with more precision is not regulated as rigidly,
Melee Attacks: Most creatures have a 5-foot reach and can thus attack targets within 5 feet of them when making a melee attack.
Height would possibly affect your reach. If you're a medium creature but you're 7'4", for instance, it might be justified to reach a creature that's 10 feet above the ground. That's where the DM has to make the call, since there's technically a space between you, but you're also partially in that air space.
Weight dragging the creature down isn't really a mechanic listed, though if you can pile enough weight onto a creature, one could see if the DM would consider the creature encumbered.
Reach is irrevekant to your height, it's based on size space and distance. 7'4'' Medium creatures still occupy and control a space of 5 feet and can attack target within 5 feet of them.
I could see height matter more outside combat where measuring distance with more precision is not regulated as rigidly,
Melee Attacks: Most creatures have a 5-foot reach and can thus attack targets within 5 feet of them when making a melee attack.
The 5 foot square is an estimate typically used when playing on a grid/map. It's not an absolute requirement and calmly asking the DM if they would agree the creature is within grappling range based on height is never out of line.
Where this gets fun is when the grappled hovering creature turns around and grapples the non-hovering flying creature. For a beholder, this would be tough for anatomical reasons, but let's put that aside. In this case, the non-hovering creature ALSO has a speed of 0 and immediately falls. This ends the grappled condition on the hovering creature as the grappler's distance suddenly exceeds its reach (bullet point 3), and the hovering creature is now free to move again. Good times.
Now you lost me on this one ;) Why grappling your grappler would cause both to fall as a result of it? If the grappler doesn't fall because it's holding onto a creature hovering, wether it also get grappledand now its speed become 0 shouldn't cause the grapple to end, you don't need your speed to grapple someone. The grappledcondition ends if the grappler is incapacitated which it does not when grappled.
It wouldn't cause both flying creatures to fall. Sorry if I gave you the impression I was suggesting that. Bot if a flying creature and a hovering creature grappled each other, they would both have a speed of 0 and the flying creature would fall while the hovering creature would not. If one falls and the other does not, then they quickly leave the reach of each other and both grappled conditions end. Of course, one has fallen, so that's a new problem for them. And since it is likely the hovering creature's turn, their speed is no longer 0, and they can move right away.
If there is some situational element like the two of them being shackled together, then the DM has to make a ruling on whether both are dragged down, both are held up, or the shackles break. It isn't something specifically covered by the rules in that level of detail, as far as I know.
Height would possibly affect your reach. If you're a medium creature but you're 7'4", for instance, it might be justified to reach a creature that's 10 feet above the ground. That's where the DM has to make the call, since there's technically a space between you, but you're also partially in that air space.
Weight dragging the creature down isn't really a mechanic listed, though if you can pile enough weight onto a creature, one could see if the DM would consider the creature encumbered.
Reach is irrevekant to your height, it's based on size space and distance. 7'4'' Medium creatures still occupy and control a space of 5 feet and can attack target within 5 feet of them.
I could see height matter more outside combat where measuring distance with more precision is not regulated as rigidly,
Melee Attacks: Most creatures have a 5-foot reach and can thus attack targets within 5 feet of them when making a melee attack.
The 5 foot square is an estimate typically used when playing on a grid/map. It's not an absolute requirement and calmly asking the DM if they would agree the creature is within grappling range based on height is never out of line.
The rules about Creature Size and space are the general rules, which is different than the rule VariantL Okaying on a Grid that use square instead but otherwise apply the same concept.
It wouldn't cause both flying creatures to fall. Sorry if I gave you the impression I was suggesting that. Bot if a flying creature and a hovering creature grappled each other, they would both have a speed of 0 and the flying creature would fall while the hovering creature would not. If one falls and the other does not, then they quickly leave the reach of each other and both grappled conditions end. Of course, one has fallen, so that's a new problem for them. And since it is likely the hovering creature's turn, their speed is no longer 0, and they can move right away.
Yeah i misunderstood both falling, rereading i see you meantoinly one would fall. My point was if it's not falling because it grapple an hovering creature, why being grappled would not cause it to fall? Because it has speed of 0? If it was not flying but jumping would it also fall after grappling it in midair? It goes back to wether grappling a flying creature prevent you from falling.
Bold emphasis mine. Such tactic wouldn't make Jump-Grapple-Fall tactic undoable?
As far as jumping goes, I'm still trying to wrap my mind around that one because typically jumping will happen on your turn, and you generally don't get grappled on your turn. I can think of a situation where it could happen, but it seems like an edge case. At any rate, I would think that if you got grappled mid-jump, your speed would become 0 and your jump would end there. I hope there's something nearby under you at that point. It's not that the grapple would cause you to fall the way it would with a flying creature--it's just that you would no longer have the movement necessary to continue your forward jump, and you would then land directly under that point in your jump. This is my inference based on semi-related rules rather than anything I'm quoting from the book, so I cannot say someone is wrong to disagree with my interpretation.
Either way, it's going to get pretty noodly and quite specific. We are definitely in the realm of the DM having to look at the related rules and make a ruling for that unusual situation.
Yeah a DM can make a ruling based on different rules to determine what happen when you jump and grapple a flying (hover) creature;
A) You fall and as you move you drag the grappled creature with you.
B) You fall as the condition ends because it's an effect that removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler.
C) You don't fall as long as the grapple is in effect.
I don't see how RAW can be anything other than C. If you grab a creature, you are holding onto the creature. If you are holding something, you don't automatically fall unless something causes you to fall. It is the same as if you climbing a surface. An external effect is required to knock you off. This thread has some interesting ideas, but the rules as written aren't unclear; no need to overcomplicate it.
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Doesn't make a lot of sense but thems the rules.
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Okay, but you also need to keep in mind that the amount of text describing the monster changes depending on which sourcebook you are using. In both 3rd and 5th edition, Beholders have the ability to hover. The parameters of that are not well defined in the 5E monster's block text, but it might well be in the Monster Manual somewhere.
Regardless, reducing speed to 0 does not prevent the Beholder from hovering. Technically, the Beholder cannot move but it can remain suspended in the air until it detaches the humanoid holding onto its eyestalks.
Frankly, I would say there should be enough discretionary grey area here that the DM gets to make the call.
If the DM makes any call, it's a house rule. The rules on grappling state that, when grappled, a creature's speed is 0. Further, flying creatures whose speeds are reduced to 0 fall to the ground unless they have a hover speed. Therefore:
-Aarakocra Archer gets grappled: Falls
-Beholder gets grappled: Speed reduced to 0, doesn't fall due to hover
There's really no wiggle room here...
Now, there's another mechanic that could be referenced. Climb onto a Bigger Creature.
Basically, it's an optional feature from the DMG for combat. I'm not gonna put the full text here, but it essentially is an Athletics or Acrobatics vs the creature's Acrobatics to jump on and hang onto it. Creature moves with the larger one and has advantage on attacks against it. Then the larger one can try to dislodge it with Athletics vs the smaller creature's Athletics or Acrobatics as an action.
The real question is, does any rule as written says a hovering creature prevent non-hovering creature from falling?
You lost me on this one. How would this work?
EDIT: If a flying creature with no hover ability grapples a flying creature that can hover, then both creatures remain in the air. The non-hovering creature is not grappled, and is not required to move in order to keep flying, as long as they COULD move. And of course, the grappled hovering creature has a speed of 0 while grappled and does not fall.
Where this gets fun is when the grappled hovering creature turns around and grapples the non-hovering flying creature. For a beholder, this would be tough for anatomical reasons, but let's put that aside. In this case, the non-hovering creature ALSO has a speed of 0 and immediately falls. This ends the grappled condition on the hovering creature as the grappler's distance suddenly exceeds its reach (bullet point 3), and the hovering creature is now free to move again. Good times.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
At my table, a "house rule" is just that, an actual rule that gets written down, that everybody in the campaign can review and comment on (though the DM gets final say). A DM who makes a call in a specific situation to deal with an unusual circumstance is a ruling but not a house rule. If the unusual circumstance somehow becomes common enough as to warrant the ruling to be written down, then it becomes an actual house rule.
It's exactly the point i made, the Hover trait doesn't say a creature grappling it doesn't fall, only it doesn't fall with speed of 0. Hover doesn't address other falling creature, neither does it protect them against forced movement and say they cam't be pushed, pulled or dragged in any direction. Can gravity from a falling creature drag a grappled hovering creature with it?
It boils down to a flying (hover) creature doesn't fall VS when you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you. But both facts need not be mutually exclusive, they could be occur.
EDIT The grappled condition ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell, which push. So at least pull or push breaks grapple. So is a fall also an effect that removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler? There lies the question.
Now you lost me on this one ;) Why grappling your grappler would cause both to fall as a result of it? If the grappler doesn't fall because it's holding onto a creature hovering, wether it also get grappled and now its speed become 0 shouldn't cause the grapple to end, you don't need your speed to grapple someone. The grappled condition ends if the grappler is incapacitated which it does not when grappled.
What I’m wondering is this: can you grapple a flying creature that has a hovering speed and still stay on the ground? Or can you somehow drag it down with your body weight? What would be the requirements for this? A size difference in your favor?
Well, you have to be in range to grapple in the first place. So you have to get it down to your level first, then you can grapple it.
How would your height effect your reach?
And can you use your weight to drag a hovering creature down while you are both in the air (let’s say a Rune Knight with his Giant’s Might active and Enlarge cast on him jumps up and grabs one of the eyestalks of the beholder)
The target of your grapple must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within your reach. When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you.
Height would possibly affect your reach. If you're a medium creature but you're 7'4", for instance, it might be justified to reach a creature that's 10 feet above the ground. That's where the DM has to make the call, since there's technically a space between you, but you're also partially in that air space.
Weight dragging the creature down isn't really a mechanic listed, though if you can pile enough weight onto a creature, one could see if the DM would consider the creature encumbered.
Reach is irrevekant to your height, it's based on size space and distance. 7'4'' Medium creatures still occupy and control a space of 5 feet and can attack target within 5 feet of them.
I could see height matter more outside combat where measuring distance with more precision is not regulated as rigidly,
The 5 foot square is an estimate typically used when playing on a grid/map. It's not an absolute requirement and calmly asking the DM if they would agree the creature is within grappling range based on height is never out of line.
It wouldn't cause both flying creatures to fall. Sorry if I gave you the impression I was suggesting that. Bot if a flying creature and a hovering creature grappled each other, they would both have a speed of 0 and the flying creature would fall while the hovering creature would not. If one falls and the other does not, then they quickly leave the reach of each other and both grappled conditions end. Of course, one has fallen, so that's a new problem for them. And since it is likely the hovering creature's turn, their speed is no longer 0, and they can move right away.
If there is some situational element like the two of them being shackled together, then the DM has to make a ruling on whether both are dragged down, both are held up, or the shackles break. It isn't something specifically covered by the rules in that level of detail, as far as I know.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The rules about Creature Size and space are the general rules, which is different than the rule VariantL Okaying on a Grid that use square instead but otherwise apply the same concept.
The DM can make any ruling of course.
Yeah i misunderstood both falling, rereading i see you meantoinly one would fall. My point was if it's not falling because it grapple an hovering creature, why being grappled would not cause it to fall? Because it has speed of 0? If it was not flying but jumping would it also fall after grappling it in midair? It goes back to wether grappling a flying creature prevent you from falling.
Bold emphasis mine. Such tactic wouldn't make Jump-Grapple-Fall tactic undoable?
Yeah, the two rules I'm thinking of are the one for the grappled condition that says if you have the condition, your speed is 0; and the rule for flying creatures that fall when their speed is 0 unless they can hover.
As far as jumping goes, I'm still trying to wrap my mind around that one because typically jumping will happen on your turn, and you generally don't get grappled on your turn. I can think of a situation where it could happen, but it seems like an edge case. At any rate, I would think that if you got grappled mid-jump, your speed would become 0 and your jump would end there. I hope there's something nearby under you at that point. It's not that the grapple would cause you to fall the way it would with a flying creature--it's just that you would no longer have the movement necessary to continue your forward jump, and you would then land directly under that point in your jump. This is my inference based on semi-related rules rather than anything I'm quoting from the book, so I cannot say someone is wrong to disagree with my interpretation.
Either way, it's going to get pretty noodly and quite specific. We are definitely in the realm of the DM having to look at the related rules and make a ruling for that unusual situation.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Yeah a DM can make a ruling based on different rules to determine what happen when you jump and grapple a flying (hover) creature;
A) You fall and as you move you drag the grappled creature with you.
B) You fall as the condition ends because it's an effect that removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler.
C) You don't fall as long as the grapple is in effect.
I don't see how RAW can be anything other than C. If you grab a creature, you are holding onto the creature. If you are holding something, you don't automatically fall unless something causes you to fall. It is the same as if you climbing a surface. An external effect is required to knock you off. This thread has some interesting ideas, but the rules as written aren't unclear; no need to overcomplicate it.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.