Im building my very first wizard, I've settled on Scribes Wizard, and I sort of accidently came across a pretty interesting fun build --
We will be (re) starting the campaign at Lvl 5 -- and as my feat I took Telepathic (I had used it once before on a Moon Druid and it was lots of utility -- but I got to thinking the amount of shannighans I could pull off with the Manifest mind and one way telepathy is insane...
But specifically, what are the properties of the manifested mind 1) It is an "object", and if it is an object does it have a weight? ( I know it cant be physically damaged only dispelled,) 2) If im reading this correctly, you can manifest it in any unoccupied space within 60 ft (not necessarily one you can see) so I could manifest it inside a closed room -- even one I've never been inside 3 I know it sheds "dim light" but (and this might be DM dependent) but if I manifested it in a well lit room, how visible would be it, if I described that I was manifesting it say "in the corner of the ceiling" so an NPC would have to actively look for it?
Curious your thoughts, and please feel free to give any advice or pitfalls youve experienced
1) The Manifest Mind is described as a spectral object that hovers. Also the feature says it stops manifesting if your Awakened Spellbook is destroyed but doesn't mention attacking the manifestation itself. So I would rule that the manifestation is weightless and intangible.
2) Yes, Manifest Mind does not require seeing the space it appears in. It only requires that the space be unoccupied. A DM might rule that you need a clear path, similar to what is required for spells, but that isn't required by RAW.
3) Well, given a Candle also sheds light out to 10 feet I sound say about as noticable as a lit candle. Though I don't see this as particularly relevant as in D&D it is usually given that in order to go unnoticed an active effort needs to be made to hide or obscure your presence.
I had some ideas of how to use it -- Would it be reasonable to assume this -- if I manifested it into a "well lit" room, that unless they did an active perception check, the average (lets just say guard) isnt likely going to notice an extra candle in a room, especially if the "object" isnt just floating out in the open ..
Just one idea I had-- the fun I could have -- (and most of this example is just really fun RPing) with a nice surprise at the end since I could use telepathy as a feat -- I could use the manifest mind to see into a closed room, using telephathy I could talk to an NPC so only they could hear mu voice -- I could tell them something like how they've been a terrible person and a disappointment --announce I;m their dead grandma :P and then cast Spirit Shroud through the manifested mind to make them see a spirit and just see what happen.... then for extra fun... (I could set up a glyph of warding with a fireball spell to be activates when they come screaming out of the room.... and kaboom !! :)
I think that technically shedding dim light is noticeable if you do this in a brightly lit space. Your best bet of blending in would be if the room was already filled with dim light.
Would it be reasonable to assume this -- if I manifested it into a "well lit" room, that unless they did an active perception check, the average (lets just say guard) isnt likely going to notice an extra candle in a room, especially if the "object" isnt just floating out in the open ..
I don't think this would be a reasonable assumption to make. The DMG does contain an optional rule for facing that could be used (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/running-the-game#OptionalRuleFacing), but this is optional and by default creatures have an awareness of everything going on around them. This is definitely something I would talk to your DM about before trying it at a table.
Personally I would rule that any creature that has line of sight to the Manifest Mind when it appears is aware of its presence. My rational for this the Manifest Mind is glowing, and like someone turning on a new light, it is going to suddenly change the lighting conditions in the room. Objects will cast new shadows and their previously existing shadows will brighten as additional lighting is illuminating them. In short this just isn't a subtle change.
Also, when it comes to spells with a range of 'Self' like Spirit Shroud they generally target or have their effects centered on the caster. Manifest Mind allows you to cast spells "...as if you were in the spectral mind’s space". The problem this creates is that now the position of the caster and where the spell is cast from is no longer the same. Does the spell still target the caster or does it now target the Manifest Mind as you suggest? If it targets the Manifest Mind then can you only trigger the bonus damage on your attacks by casting through your Manifest Mind again? If it targets the caster do you need a clear path between your Manifest Mind and yourself for the spell to succeed? This is also something you should talk to your DM about so you both have the same expectations for how this all works.
Yeah, I think that, mechanically, the intent of making Manifest Mind glow in the first place is to basically establish that it's always obvious when it appears. It doesn't provide you any real benefits... it's not enough light to provide useable vision for a creature without darkvision. The only thing glowing like that does, really, is prevent it from hiding, which I personally think is the entire point.
If you want a spy that could more reasonably sneak into a room that you can see through its eyes and communicate with someone in that room, you'll want to take Find Familiar. Just choose a stealthy creature that could hide the way you want your Manifest Mind to.
Im building my very first wizard, I've settled on Scribes Wizard, and I sort of accidently came across a pretty interesting fun build --
We will be (re) starting the campaign at Lvl 5 -- and as my feat I took Telepathic (I had used it once before on a Moon Druid and it was lots of utility -- but I got to thinking the amount of shannighans I could pull off with the Manifest mind and one way telepathy is insane...
But specifically, what are the properties of the manifested mind 1) It is an "object", and if it is an object does it have a weight? ( I know it cant be physically damaged only dispelled,) 2) If im reading this correctly, you can manifest it in any unoccupied space within 60 ft (not necessarily one you can see) so I could manifest it inside a closed room -- even one I've never been inside 3 I know it sheds "dim light" but (and this might be DM dependent) but if I manifested it in a well lit room, how visible would be it, if I described that I was manifesting it say "in the corner of the ceiling" so an NPC would have to actively look for it?
Curious your thoughts, and please feel free to give any advice or pitfalls youve experienced
1) It's an object with no weight indicated. Being spectral and intangible i assume it's weightless.
2) Same reading.. Since it's not a spell or an attack, it's technically not blocked by rules such as Total Cover or Clear Path to the Target. But considering it can cast spells as if you were in the spectral mind's space, i would rule against it to avoid a way around those rules.
3) The presence or absence of light in an environment creates three categories of illumination: bright light, dim light, and darkness. To me they're mutually exclusive and similar to cover only the most illumination degree of light applies so darkness < dim light < bright light. Now this effect being dim light the area would be more brightly illuminated but it might still be distinguishable due to color variation.
I think that technically shedding dim light is noticeable if you do this in a brightly lit space. Your best bet of blending in would be if the room was already filled with dim light.
Normal light sources can only add light, they don't take it away, so a dim light in a bright room would be less visible than a dim light in an already dimly lit room, because an extra light source in the latter will make it brighter (though possibly not enough to become bright light yet, that's very much a DM ruling).
But to be clear, that's purely the light it'd be shedding, which would be less noticeable in the bright room. The spectral form itself however would be more noticeable by virtue of the room being better lit (no disadvantage on Perception to spot it).
The fact it's an object though means it can't properly Hide, your DM will just be setting a DC for nearby creatures to roll against, but I'd personally factor in things like how exposed it is (in the open versus behind another object etc.).
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Would it be reasonable to assume this -- if I manifested it into a "well lit" room, that unless they did an active perception check, the average (lets just say guard) isnt likely going to notice an extra candle in a room, especially if the "object" isnt just floating out in the open .
I wouldn't find it reasonable. The mind manifest as a tiny spectral object that looks like a ghostly tome, a cascade of text, or a scholar from the past which sheds dim light in a 10-foot radius therefore it visible, not invisible.
No thats fair, and my DM basically made the same ruling. Thier words were basically. if you were in a lamp store with all the lamps working , and there was one lamp without a shade wouldntt hat stand out....
And I saw the point.
There is still plenty of fun I imagine that can be had with this thing even if I cant have it be unnoticable
I think that technically shedding dim light is noticeable if you do this in a brightly lit space. Your best bet of blending in would be if the room was already filled with dim light.
Normal light sources can only add light, they don't take it away, so a dim light in a bright room would be less visible than a dim light in an already dimly lit room, because an extra light source in the latter will make it brighter (though possibly not enough to become bright light yet, that's very much a DM ruling).
But to be clear, that's purely the light it'd be shedding, which would be less noticeable in the bright room.
So, we're veering off into a bit of a tangent with respect to the original post, but I wanted to respond to this anyway.
What you are describing here is quite logical and correct with respect to how light works in real life -- but I don't think that the Rules support these claims in terms of game mechanics.
To just start with some quick examples: A recent discussion of the Twilight Sanctuary Feature of the Twilight Cleric subclass yielded a consensus that the sphere of dim light could be created in an area of bright light. It seems weird, but it's an example of "taking away" light -- and this would be more visible than bright light created within bright light because of the difference in light. Another example is the darkness spell -- this one can create a 15 foot radius sphere of darkness right out in the middle of a large field in broad daylight. I would imagine that the existence of such a sphere would be quite noticeable.
Also, according to the rules it would seem that creating dim light in an area that is already dim light should create no change in lighting, which is why I recommended that option in response to the original question. I don't feel too strongly about this though -- if you want to rule as a DM that there can be different "levels" of light which can fit into the same category (bright, dim, dark) then I could probably be convinced. It doesn't seem like the rules specifically prohibit that or anything.
By far the biggest problem I can see with what I've described above is what happens when these light sources which create bright light in the middle and dim light on the outer portion of the radius are cast within an area of bright light. It would seem that the middle portion with the bright light would cause no change to the lighting and then we'd have a weird donut shaped ring of dim light sort of interrupting a large area of bright light. That obviously makes no sense, but I am struggling to find any text within the rules for Vision and Light or anywhere else for that matter which resolves this.
The three most relevant portions of the rules are:
Dim light, also called shadows, creates a lightly obscured area.
Torch. A torch burns for 1 hour, providing bright light in a 20-foot radius and dim light for an additional 20 feet.
An area of dim light is usually a boundary between a source of bright light, such as a torch, and surrounding darkness.
These rules support the donut of dim light created by the torch. I am hoping that someone can prove me wrong.
I would not refer to Twillight Sanctuary as it was specifically meant to be a shadow cleric power and not everyone even agree with how the Dev says work.
Different illumination iinteraction isn't clearly explained in the rules but logic prevail. The presence or absence of light in an environment creates three categories of illumination: bright light, dim light, and darkness. In a brightly lit room, there is no absence of light and a presence of bright light. Bringing dim light would not reduce illumination because there wouldn't be ambiant darkness to illuminate. Dim light being described as boundary between bright light, and darkness to me indicate it usually doesn't overlap bright light. Where some shadow effect possibly would, At least that'd be DM ruling i go by.
Vision and Light: The presence or absence of light in an environment creates three categories of illumination: bright light, dim light, and darkness.
1. This should give a radius, but I'd say the object is tiny and appears incorporeal/ethereal and the square targeted. It doesn't have a discernable weight.
2. You can manifest mind right through a solid wall... It's close to an x ray vision in that regard.
3. DC 20 perception check to spot the manifested floating head, advantage/disadvantage would depend on exactly what lighting system the DM was running.
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Hi all,
Im building my very first wizard, I've settled on Scribes Wizard, and I sort of accidently came across a pretty interesting fun build --
We will be (re) starting the campaign at Lvl 5 -- and as my feat I took Telepathic (I had used it once before on a Moon Druid and it was lots of utility -- but I got to thinking the amount of shannighans I could pull off with the Manifest mind and one way telepathy is insane...
But specifically, what are the properties of the manifested mind
1) It is an "object", and if it is an object does it have a weight? ( I know it cant be physically damaged only dispelled,)
2) If im reading this correctly, you can manifest it in any unoccupied space within 60 ft (not necessarily one you can see) so I could manifest it inside a closed room -- even one I've never been inside
3 I know it sheds "dim light" but (and this might be DM dependent) but if I manifested it in a well lit room, how visible would be it, if I described that I was manifesting it say "in the corner of the ceiling" so an NPC would have to actively look for it?
Curious your thoughts, and please feel free to give any advice or pitfalls youve experienced
Thanks
1) The Manifest Mind is described as a spectral object that hovers. Also the feature says it stops manifesting if your Awakened Spellbook is destroyed but doesn't mention attacking the manifestation itself. So I would rule that the manifestation is weightless and intangible.
2) Yes, Manifest Mind does not require seeing the space it appears in. It only requires that the space be unoccupied. A DM might rule that you need a clear path, similar to what is required for spells, but that isn't required by RAW.
3) Well, given a Candle also sheds light out to 10 feet I sound say about as noticable as a lit candle. Though I don't see this as particularly relevant as in D&D it is usually given that in order to go unnoticed an active effort needs to be made to hide or obscure your presence.
That helps thanks,
I had some ideas of how to use it --
Would it be reasonable to assume this -- if I manifested it into a "well lit" room, that unless they did an active perception check, the average (lets just say guard) isnt likely going to notice an extra candle in a room, especially if the "object" isnt just floating out in the open ..
Just one idea I had-- the fun I could have -- (and most of this example is just really fun RPing) with a nice surprise at the end since I could use telepathy as a feat -- I could use the manifest mind to see into a closed room, using telephathy I could talk to an NPC so only they could hear mu voice -- I could tell them something like how they've been a terrible person and a disappointment --announce I;m their dead grandma :P and then cast Spirit Shroud through the manifested mind to make them see a spirit and just see what happen.... then for extra fun... (I could set up a glyph of warding with a fireball spell to be activates when they come screaming out of the room.... and kaboom !! :)
I think that technically shedding dim light is noticeable if you do this in a brightly lit space. Your best bet of blending in would be if the room was already filled with dim light.
I don't think this would be a reasonable assumption to make. The DMG does contain an optional rule for facing that could be used (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/running-the-game#OptionalRuleFacing), but this is optional and by default creatures have an awareness of everything going on around them. This is definitely something I would talk to your DM about before trying it at a table.
Personally I would rule that any creature that has line of sight to the Manifest Mind when it appears is aware of its presence. My rational for this the Manifest Mind is glowing, and like someone turning on a new light, it is going to suddenly change the lighting conditions in the room. Objects will cast new shadows and their previously existing shadows will brighten as additional lighting is illuminating them. In short this just isn't a subtle change.
Also, when it comes to spells with a range of 'Self' like Spirit Shroud they generally target or have their effects centered on the caster. Manifest Mind allows you to cast spells "...as if you were in the spectral mind’s space". The problem this creates is that now the position of the caster and where the spell is cast from is no longer the same. Does the spell still target the caster or does it now target the Manifest Mind as you suggest? If it targets the Manifest Mind then can you only trigger the bonus damage on your attacks by casting through your Manifest Mind again? If it targets the caster do you need a clear path between your Manifest Mind and yourself for the spell to succeed? This is also something you should talk to your DM about so you both have the same expectations for how this all works.
Yeah, I think that, mechanically, the intent of making Manifest Mind glow in the first place is to basically establish that it's always obvious when it appears. It doesn't provide you any real benefits... it's not enough light to provide useable vision for a creature without darkvision. The only thing glowing like that does, really, is prevent it from hiding, which I personally think is the entire point.
If you want a spy that could more reasonably sneak into a room that you can see through its eyes and communicate with someone in that room, you'll want to take Find Familiar. Just choose a stealthy creature that could hide the way you want your Manifest Mind to.
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1) It's an object with no weight indicated. Being spectral and intangible i assume it's weightless.
2) Same reading.. Since it's not a spell or an attack, it's technically not blocked by rules such as Total Cover or Clear Path to the Target. But considering it can cast spells as if you were in the spectral mind's space, i would rule against it to avoid a way around those rules.
3) The presence or absence of light in an environment creates three categories of illumination: bright light, dim light, and darkness. To me they're mutually exclusive and similar to cover only the most illumination degree of light applies so darkness < dim light < bright light. Now this effect being dim light the area would be more brightly illuminated but it might still be distinguishable due to color variation.
Normal light sources can only add light, they don't take it away, so a dim light in a bright room would be less visible than a dim light in an already dimly lit room, because an extra light source in the latter will make it brighter (though possibly not enough to become bright light yet, that's very much a DM ruling).
But to be clear, that's purely the light it'd be shedding, which would be less noticeable in the bright room. The spectral form itself however would be more noticeable by virtue of the room being better lit (no disadvantage on Perception to spot it).
The fact it's an object though means it can't properly Hide, your DM will just be setting a DC for nearby creatures to roll against, but I'd personally factor in things like how exposed it is (in the open versus behind another object etc.).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I wouldn't find it reasonable. The mind manifest as a tiny spectral object that looks like a ghostly tome, a cascade of text, or a scholar from the past which sheds dim light in a 10-foot radius therefore it visible, not invisible.
No thats fair, and my DM basically made the same ruling. Thier words were basically. if you were in a lamp store with all the lamps working , and there was one lamp without a shade wouldntt hat stand out....
And I saw the point.
There is still plenty of fun I imagine that can be had with this thing even if I cant have it be unnoticable
So, we're veering off into a bit of a tangent with respect to the original post, but I wanted to respond to this anyway.
What you are describing here is quite logical and correct with respect to how light works in real life -- but I don't think that the Rules support these claims in terms of game mechanics.
To just start with some quick examples: A recent discussion of the Twilight Sanctuary Feature of the Twilight Cleric subclass yielded a consensus that the sphere of dim light could be created in an area of bright light. It seems weird, but it's an example of "taking away" light -- and this would be more visible than bright light created within bright light because of the difference in light. Another example is the darkness spell -- this one can create a 15 foot radius sphere of darkness right out in the middle of a large field in broad daylight. I would imagine that the existence of such a sphere would be quite noticeable.
Also, according to the rules it would seem that creating dim light in an area that is already dim light should create no change in lighting, which is why I recommended that option in response to the original question. I don't feel too strongly about this though -- if you want to rule as a DM that there can be different "levels" of light which can fit into the same category (bright, dim, dark) then I could probably be convinced. It doesn't seem like the rules specifically prohibit that or anything.
By far the biggest problem I can see with what I've described above is what happens when these light sources which create bright light in the middle and dim light on the outer portion of the radius are cast within an area of bright light. It would seem that the middle portion with the bright light would cause no change to the lighting and then we'd have a weird donut shaped ring of dim light sort of interrupting a large area of bright light. That obviously makes no sense, but I am struggling to find any text within the rules for Vision and Light or anywhere else for that matter which resolves this.
The three most relevant portions of the rules are:
These rules support the donut of dim light created by the torch. I am hoping that someone can prove me wrong.
Thanks for the answer
1. This should give a radius, but I'd say the object is tiny and appears incorporeal/ethereal and the square targeted. It doesn't have a discernable weight.
2. You can manifest mind right through a solid wall... It's close to an x ray vision in that regard.
3. DC 20 perception check to spot the manifested floating head, advantage/disadvantage would depend on exactly what lighting system the DM was running.