No, if you choose the Wizard class with Magic Initiate then the spell is learned from the Wizard Spells list, making it a Wizard spell that you know. It is already in your spellbook at this point:
Spellbook
. . . Your spellbook is the repository of the wizard spells you know, except your cantrips, which are fixed in your mind.
That's just how the Wizard class works. Cantrips are known because they are permanently fixed in the mind. Leveled spells are known because they are in the spellbook. The only time when you need to pay a time and monetary cost to add a spell into the spellbook is when you are in possession of a spell (usually in written form) that is not yet known and you decide on your own that you want to go through the process of learning that spell. When learning the spell is spontaneously thrust upon you instead, then that is an intellectual breakthrough and those are free. They just appear in your spellbook in an unknown way.
. . . Your spellbook is the repository of the wizard spells you know, except your cantrips, which are fixed in your mind.
This is at the start of a Wizard's carrer. You left the first part of it
Spellbook
At 1st level, you have a spellbook containing six 1st-level wizard spells of your choice. Your spellbook is the repository of the wizard spells you know, except your cantrips, which are fixed in your mind.
Then during your adventuring life you
Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table. On your adventures, you might find other spells that you can add to your spellbook (see the “Your Spellbook” sidebar).
Magic Initiate actually provides another good argument against "wizard spell" meaning "any spell on the wizard list" when it comes to things like Empowered Evocation
If your evo wizard for whatever reason takes Magic Initiate - Sorcerer to get, say, burning hands -- which would use CHA and not INT for its casting stat -- it seems kind of silly to then say, "oh, it's a wizard spell, so I get to add my INT mod for damage"
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
No, if you choose the Wizard class with Magic Initiate then the spell is learned from the Wizard Spells list, making it a Wizard spell that you know. It is already in your spellbook at this point:
Spellbook
. . . Your spellbook is the repository of the wizard spells you know, except your cantrips, which are fixed in your mind.
That's just how the Wizard class works. Cantrips are known because they are permanently fixed in the mind. Leveled spells are known because they are in the spellbook. The only time when you need to pay a time and monetary cost to add a spell into the spellbook is when you are in possession of a spell (usually in written form) that is not yet known and you decide on your own that you want to go through the process of learning that spell. When learning the spell is spontaneously thrust upon you instead, then that is an intellectual breakthrough and those are free. They just appear in your spellbook in an unknown way.
Eh, that's a bit iffy. This is the only time spells (besides cantrips) are described as known within the entirety of the Wizard class. Plus, it'd make some pretty weird interactions with AT and EK.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Yes it is. This is exactly what the SAC ruling says and it is what the Feat says. The full SAC ruling was given in Post #69:
SAC: "Similarly, if you are a wizard and pick that class for the feat, you learn a 1st-level wizard spell, which you could add to your spellbook and subsequently prepare."
Feat: "choose one 1st-level spell to learn from that same list."
Spellbook: "Your spellbook is the repository of the wizard spells you know, except your cantrips, which are fixed in your mind."
So, a Wizard knowing a spell means that it is in his spellbook. In order to know a spell he must learn it, which can happen in a few different ways.
Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher:
1. "Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free." and "The spells that you add to your spellbook as you gain levels reflect the arcane research you conduct on your own, as well as intellectual breakthroughs you have had about the nature of the multiverse."
OR
2. On your adventures, you might find other spells that you can add to your spellbook (see the “Your Spellbook” sidebar). Notice carefully how the comment "see the "Your Spellbook sidebar" is placed into parentheses within THIS sentence. It is NOT written as its own separate sentence within the paragraph. This is intentional. The rules and procedures listed in the Your Spellbook sidebar apply ONLY to spells that you FIND that are not yet known. We also have: "You might find other spells during your adventures. You could discover a spell recorded on a scroll in an evil wizard’s chest, for example, or in a dusty tome in an ancient library." This introduces the specific situations that apply, including:
2a) Copying a Spell -- This rule is for leveled Wizard spells that you FIND. This is a written copy of a spell that is written by another Wizard encoded in that Wizard's notation. We do not know this spell, and we do not understand what the spell says. There is a process for deciphering the spell and then encoding and writing it into the spellbook which then makes it a known spell for a Wizard. You do this at any moment of your choosing and this process has a cost.
2b) Replacing the Book -- This rule is for leveled Wizard spells that you possess in written form. This spell was written by YOU. We do NOT know this spell (because it is not in your spellbook, it is in the old spellbook which you are not using), but we DO understand what the spell says since it exists in our own notation. The process given to make this a known spell (again) involves writing it into the spellbook which then makes it a known spell (again) for a Wizard. You do this at any moment of your choosing and this process has a cost.
2b - 2) Archiving a Prepared Spell -- This rule is for leveled Wizard spells that you have prepared for casting. We do NOT know this spell (because it does not exist in the spellbook, and prepared leveled spells are only temporarily fixed in a Wizard's mind), but we DO understand what the spell says since it is currently fixed in the Wizard's mind. The process given to make this a known spell is the same as the one given to replace a spellbook in option 2b above. This then makes it a known spell (again) for a Wizard. You do this at any moment of your choosing and this process has a cost.
There are no other situations that involve a spell being added to the spellbook which has a cost.
There is a clear distinction between spells that you find and possess and spells that you directly learn in other ways.
This is at the start of a Wizard's carrer. You left the first part of it
Spellbook
At 1st level, you have a spellbook containing six 1st-level wizard spells of your choice. Your spellbook is the repository of the wizard spells you know, except your cantrips, which are fixed in your mind.
Then during your adventuring life you
Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table. On your adventures, you might find other spells that you can add to your spellbook (see the “Your Spellbook” sidebar).
No, no NO!!! This is a gross misunderstanding of the rules for Wizards. If you look at how the spellcasting section is organized, they start by talking about Cantrips and then they introduce the concept that a Wizard uses a spellbook. This section is explaining what a spellbook is, how it functions and why it's important. This is not a section that just gives information about a Wizard's starting spells. That is just totally incorrect. Then, much further down there is a section about learning spells, which then refers to the Your Spellbook sidebar for rules about spells that are found.
The Spellcasting --> Spellbook section of the rules is spelling it out that known spells for a Wizard means permanently fixed in the mind only for Cantrips, and exists in the spellbook for all leveled spells. That is the whole purpose of that section of the rules and it distinguishes the functionality of the Wizard from other spellcasters such as the Sorcerer whose known leveled spells ARE all permanently fixed in the mind. In fact, at some point along the way, that second sentence appears to have been added via errata because some older hardcopies do not have that line -- they went out of their way to spell this out to make it even more clear. A Wizard's known spells are the spells in his spellbook. It is absolutely essential to understand this in order to run Wizards correctly.
Magic Initiate actually provides another good argument against "wizard spell" meaning "any spell on the wizard list" when it comes to things like Empowered Evocation
If your evo wizard for whatever reason takes Magic Initiate - Sorcerer to get, say, burning hands -- which would use CHA and not INT for its casting stat -- it seems kind of silly to then say, "oh, it's a wizard spell, so I get to add my INT mod for damage"
Yes, this is correct, and this is what the SAC ruling confirms. You have to select the Wizard class in order to learn the Wizard spell from the Feat by selecting that spell from the Wizard Spells list. That ruling also confirms that in addition to casting that spell as a Feat, you could also add this spell to your spellbook since it is a Wizard spell that you've learned and therefore you could prepare and cast it by using spell slots in accordance with the Wizard Spellcasting class Feature -- but only if you chose the Wizard class when acquiring the Feat.
Plus, it'd make some pretty weird interactions with AT and EK.
All of these rules we're currently discussing regarding the Wizard's spellbook apply only to Wizards because the Wizard is using the rules of it's own Wizard Spellcasting class Feature. These rules for spellbooks exist within that Feature.
Arcane Tricksters have their own Spellcasting class Feature which DOES interact with Wizard Spells but which does not require or use a spellbook. The Arcane Trickster knows spells by keeping them permanently fixed in his mind -- they have no rules by which they are required to "prepare" spells in order to cast them.
Plus, it'd make some pretty weird interactions with AT and EK.
All of these rules we're currently discussing regarding the Wizard's spellbook apply only to Wizards because the Wizard is using the rules of it's own Wizard Spellcasting class Feature. These rules for spellbooks exist within that Feature.
Arcane Tricksters have their own Spellcasting class Feature which DOES interact with Wizard Spells but which does not require or use a spellbook. The Arcane Trickster knows spells by keeping them permanently fixed in his mind -- they have no rules by which they are required to "prepare" spells in order to cast them.
Right, I was talking about multiclassing. According to you, a Wizard/Rogue (AT) or Fighter (EK) would instantly put any spells they learn from their non-Wizard classes into their Wizard spellbook.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Yes it is. This is exactly what the SAC ruling says and it is what the Feat says.
Nowhere in the feat it says it's added to your spellbook, and SAC say you could add to your spellbook and subsequently prepare, not that it is already in it.
So you need to add it in your spellbook, following the rules for when find other spells during your adventures in Your Spellbook.
Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Which spell scrolls can bards understand—spells from the bard list only, or spells from the bard list plus spells from Magical Secrets?
A bard can use any spell scroll that has a bard spell on it—including spells gained from the Magical Secrets feature, which are treated as bard spells for that character.
Plus, it'd make some pretty weird interactions with AT and EK.
All of these rules we're currently discussing regarding the Wizard's spellbook apply only to Wizards because the Wizard is using the rules of it's own Wizard Spellcasting class Feature. These rules for spellbooks exist within that Feature.
Arcane Tricksters have their own Spellcasting class Feature which DOES interact with Wizard Spells but which does not require or use a spellbook. The Arcane Trickster knows spells by keeping them permanently fixed in his mind -- they have no rules by which they are required to "prepare" spells in order to cast them.
Right, I was talking about multiclassing. According to you, a Wizard/Rogue (AT) or Fighter (EK) would instantly put any spells they learn from their non-Wizard classes into their Wizard spellbook.
Ah, I see what you're saying now. Yes, a Wizard/Rogue (AT) would be a pretty odd combination to multi-class into since these share so many capabilities. But indeed, I do believe that it should work this way, and perhaps that's a main benefit of choosing this multi-class. To be clear, this wouldn't apply to "any" spells they learn from their non-Wizard classes, only to "Wizard spells". So, for example, if the Spell Thief ability is used to steal a Cleric spell, that doesn't go into the spellbook since the spellbook is only a repository of the Wizard spells that you know.
Note that there is one rule that severely handicaps such a multi-class character, from the PHB Chapter 6:
Spell Slots. You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, and half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes. Use this total to determine your spell slots by consulting the Multiclass Spellcaster table.
So, for example, a Wizard 1 / Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 19 would have the following spell slots:
1st Level spell slots: 2
and that's it.
This sort of solves potential headaches such as when this character might try to steal a 3rd level spell during battle using the Spell Thief ability and having a 3rd level spell get added to a 1st Level Wizard's spellbook . . . because of the above rule this character simply cannot steal a 3rd level spell. On the other hand, if a 1st level spell is stolen, it's unclear if this should remain permanently in the spellbook or if it should mysteriously disappear from the spellbook after 8 hours -- admittedly, this is "weird interaction" as you mentioned. But what is the alternative interpretation of "learning" a Wizard spell? If the character has Wizard levels and learns a spell from the Wizard Spells list then that spell should end up in the spellbook -- nothing else even remotely makes any sense according to all of the rules that we've been discussing.
Yes it is. This is exactly what the SAC ruling says and it is what the Feat says.
Nowhere in the feat it says it's added to your spellbook, and SAC say you could add to your spellbook and subsequently prepare, not that it is already in it.
So you need to add it in your spellbook, following the rules for when find other spells during your adventures in Your Spellbook.
Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
No, I disagree strongly with this interpretation of the SAC Ruling -- they are not using the word "could" in that way. They are saying that you have options. Since you are a Wizard who has learned a Wizard spell from the Wizard Spells list, you "could" use your Spellcasting class Feature to cast the spell by using spell slots. This involves preparing the spell from your spellbook and then casting the spell with the spell slot. OR, you "could" cast the spell by using the Feat, which does not require preparation and does not use a spell slot. They are saying that the player who controls this character "could" just go ahead and add this spell to the spellbook on their character sheet so that they have more than one way to cast the spell.
They are not at all implying that you have somehow learned the spell without adding it to your spellbook and could potentially choose to not add it somehow. That's not what they are talking about there. They are also not implying that this is a "found" spell that has not yet been learned and that you must now use the procedure for found spells in order to actually learn it.
No, I disagree strongly with this interpretation of the SAC Ruling -- they are not using the word "could" in that way. They are saying that you have options. Since you are a Wizard who has learned a Wizard spell from the Wizard Spells list, you "could" use your Spellcasting class Feature to cast the spell by using spell slots. This involves preparing the spell from your spellbook and then casting the spell with the spell slot.
And to prepare it you must first have copied it in your spellbook, It's not an interpretation, it's what's said SAC doesn't say you "could use your Spellcasting class Feature'' It says you ''coulld add to your spellbook''. So with Magic Initiate. you learn a 1st-level wizard spell that you can cast once before you finish a long rest and if you're wizard, you could add to your spellbook and subsequently prepare it.
You would then be able to cast it using your Spellcasting feature. All SAC says is you could add it to your spellbook, which has rules if you do like i said.
The SAC doesn't say anything about using those rules. It only says that you could add the spell to the spellbook. You've learned the spell, so you could add it to the spellbook.
The only other possibility that might make sense is that spells are learned only according to the Feature that you learn it from and you would have to keep track of that in your character sheet. So, learning a Wizard Spell via the rules in your Wizard Spellcasting class Feature is tracked separately from the Wizard Spells that you learn via a Feat.
Keep in mind that this interpretation would make the entire SAC Ruling completely wrong. Because now we'd be talking about the spellbook ONLY being accessible at all when the spell is learned in a way that is specified by the Wizard Spellcasting class Feature, such as when the Wizard levels up. If you learn a Wizard spell via a Feat, you would never be able to add it to the spellbook under any circumstance because under this interpretation the spellbook only exists within the rules of the Wizard Spellcasting class Feature and the spell was not learned via that Feature. So now you would have Wizard spells that you've learned which exist in your spellbook (which is supposed to be the repository of the Wizard spells that you know) and then you would also have Wizard spells that you have learned via a specific Feat, which are not in the spellbook and can never be added to the spellbook. These are completely separate from each other even though they are all Wizard spells. I find an interpretation like that to be problematic for a lot of reasons.
Note that there is one rule that severely handicaps such a multi-class character, from the PHB Chapter 6:
Spell Slots. You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, and half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes. Use this total to determine your spell slots by consulting the Multiclass Spellcaster table.
So, for example, a Wizard 1 / Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 19 would have the following spell slots:
Spell Slots. You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes, and a third of your fighter or rogue levels (rounded down) if you have the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster feature. Use this total to determine your spell slots by consulting the Multiclass Spellcaster table.
The SAC doesn't say anything about using those rules. It only says that you could add the spell to the spellbook. You've learned the spell, so you could add it to the spellbook.
Well, according to you, there shouldn't be any "could," and there shouldn't be any "add." Your interpretation says that all Wizard spells you know instantly go into your spellbook, without any decision or transcription needed, and that Wizard spells you know and Wizard spells in your spellbook are one in the same. Your interpretation and the SAC don't agree.
The only other possibility that might make sense is that spells are learned only according to the Feature that you learn it from and you would have to keep track of that in your character sheet. So, learning a Wizard Spell via the rules in your Wizard Spellcasting class Feature is tracked separately from the Wizard Spells that you learn via a Feat.
Yeah, that's correct. Of course you track them separately. They have a bunch of different rules linked to them.
Keep in mind that this interpretation would make the entire SAC Ruling completely wrong. Because now we'd be talking about the spellbook ONLY being accessible at all when the spell is learned in a way that is specified by the Wizard Spellcasting class Feature, such as when the Wizard levels up. If you learn a Wizard spell via a Feat, you would never be able to add it to the spellbook under any circumstance because under this interpretation the spellbook only exists within the rules of the Wizard Spellcasting class Feature and the spell was not learned via that Feature. So now you would have Wizard spells that you've learned which exist in your spellbook (which is supposed to be the repository of the Wizard spells that you know) and then you would also have Wizard spells that you have learned via a specific Feat, which are not in the spellbook and can never be added to the spellbook. These are completely separate from each other even though they are all Wizard spells.
The SAC ruling is wrong, yes, but it's very close to being right, thanks to the rule that lets you copy down spells that you've prepared (but technically not spells that you've learned and can cast but haven't prepare). And anyways, you'd still be able to add spells that you've learned from the feat, you'd just have to do it one of the normal ways you learn spells (finding it in the wild or levelling up).
I find an interpretation like that to be problematic for a lot of reasons.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
The only other possibility that might make sense is that spells are learned only according to the Feature that you learn it from and you would have to keep track of that in your character sheet. So, learning a Wizard Spell via the rules in your Wizard Spellcasting class Feature is tracked separately from the Wizard Spells that you learn via a Feat.
Which DDB does automatically for you. Almost as though there's a good reason for keeping track of it
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Spell Slots. You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes, and a third of your fighter or rogue levels (rounded down) if you have the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster feature. Use this total to determine your spell slots by consulting the Multiclass Spellcaster table.
Ah, very interesting. That line doesn't appear for me when I look it up online in DDB -- I guess that's not considered to be part of the basic rules. It does show up in the hard copy of the PHB though. Good catch. So I guess the available spell slots under those rules would be:
So now we're back to the oddity that Spell Thief would put a higher level spell into the spellbook. This character with 1 Wizard level (but 20 total levels) could have a 4th level spell in his spellbook this way. But according to the multi-class rules, he wouldn't be able to prepare and cast that spell using the Wizard Spellcasting class Feature.
Well, according to you, there shouldn't be any "could," and there shouldn't be any "add." Your interpretation says that all Wizard spells you know instantly go into your spellbook, without any decision or transcription needed, and that Wizard spells you know and Wizard spells in your spellbook are one in the same.
That's correct. It does match up with the SAC far better than the alternative as long as you read that last line in the way that I am reading it, in context with the rest of the paragraph. Just so the whole thing doesn't have to be re-quoted, just refer back to the entire ruling from Post #69. You have to read the entire ruling together to get the meaning behind it. The dev is answering a question about "can you use spell slots to cast the spell". The answer is yes, as long as you choose the appropriate class when acquiring the Feat. If you did that, then you (the player) could cast the spell in this way. For example, as a Sorcerer, known spells are fixed in your mind so you could cast the spell using your spell slots. Or, as a Wizard, known spells are in your spell book so if you want you (the player) could add the spell to the spellbook and then prepare and cast the spell that way. This is written as an explanation for whether or not you can cast the spell with spell slots -- it's not a mechanical explanation of how the Wizard class works. You are reading too much into the "could" and the "add" here. This is an explanation to the player that he could cast the spell this way, nothing more.
The only other possibility that might make sense is that spells are learned only according to the Feature that you learn it from and you would have to keep track of that in your character sheet. So, learning a Wizard Spell via the rules in your Wizard Spellcasting class Feature is tracked separately from the Wizard Spells that you learn via a Feat.
Which DDB does automatically for you. Almost as though there's a good reason for keeping track of it
Ok, honestly I'm coming around to this interpretation. But just so we're clear, this means that the SAC Ruling is dead wrong about this. It wouldn't be the first time -- a lot of their rulings are wrong, although some folks don't seem to want to agree with that.
The key to this interpretation is that the spellbook only exists within the context of the Wizard Spellcasting class Feature and it's not, like, a general property of a Wizard or something. So, there is no way to interact with this spellbook without going through this Feature to do so.
I just find it really weird that a Wizard can learn a spell in some other way and that spell CANNOT be added to the spellbook by any means, even if he wanted to. Like, he is carrying around this spellbook, and he knows a spell, and he cannot put it in there no matter what. That's pretty immersion breaking for me, but it does sort of align with how all of the various rules are organized so maybe this is valid.
If your wizard has Fey Touched -- a feat which literally says they have been touched by the Fey realm in some fashion -- their ability to teleport and figure out the properties of magic items could function completely differently than their usual "wizard" spells. They may not even really understand how they do those things, until they find a scroll or spellbook with another version of those spells that approaches them from a different, and more wizardly, angle
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If your wizard has Fey Touched -- a feat which literally says they have been touched by the Fey realm in some fashion -- their ability to teleport and figure out the properties of magic items could function completely differently than their usual "wizard" spells. They may not even really understand how they do those things, until they find a scroll or spellbook with another version of those spells that approaches them from a different, and more wizardly, angle
Fey touched is different from Magic Initiate. It explicitly allows the character to cast the spells "learned" through the Fey Touched feat using any spell slots they may have from other features or class levels. Effectively, it doesn't matter whether the spell is in a spellbook since the feat essentially grants two permanently prepared spells with an additional free casting 1/day ... which Magic Initiate does not (probably because it would provide an easy way to obtain the shield spell with limited investment).
"You learn the misty step spell and one 1st-level spell of your choice. The 1st-level spell must be from the divination or enchantment school of magic. You can cast each of these spells without expending a spell slot. Once you cast either of these spells in this way, you can’t cast that spell in this way again until you finish a long rest. You can also cast these spells using spell slots you have of the appropriate level. The spells’ spellcasting ability is the ability increased by this feat."
You seem to have missed the point regarding "immersion"
There's always a way to flavor a mechanic that explains a limitation or apparent inconsistency
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
No, if you choose the Wizard class with Magic Initiate then the spell is learned from the Wizard Spells list, making it a Wizard spell that you know. It is already in your spellbook at this point:
That's just how the Wizard class works. Cantrips are known because they are permanently fixed in the mind. Leveled spells are known because they are in the spellbook. The only time when you need to pay a time and monetary cost to add a spell into the spellbook is when you are in possession of a spell (usually in written form) that is not yet known and you decide on your own that you want to go through the process of learning that spell. When learning the spell is spontaneously thrust upon you instead, then that is an intellectual breakthrough and those are free. They just appear in your spellbook in an unknown way.
It's not what the SAC or the feat say.
This is at the start of a Wizard's carrer. You left the first part of it
Then during your adventuring life you
Magic Initiate actually provides another good argument against "wizard spell" meaning "any spell on the wizard list" when it comes to things like Empowered Evocation
If your evo wizard for whatever reason takes Magic Initiate - Sorcerer to get, say, burning hands -- which would use CHA and not INT for its casting stat -- it seems kind of silly to then say, "oh, it's a wizard spell, so I get to add my INT mod for damage"
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Eh, that's a bit iffy. This is the only time spells (besides cantrips) are described as known within the entirety of the Wizard class. Plus, it'd make some pretty weird interactions with AT and EK.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Yes it is. This is exactly what the SAC ruling says and it is what the Feat says. The full SAC ruling was given in Post #69:
SAC: "Similarly, if you are a wizard and pick that class for the feat, you learn a 1st-level wizard spell, which you could add to your spellbook and subsequently prepare."
Feat: "choose one 1st-level spell to learn from that same list."
Spellbook: "Your spellbook is the repository of the wizard spells you know, except your cantrips, which are fixed in your mind."
So, a Wizard knowing a spell means that it is in his spellbook. In order to know a spell he must learn it, which can happen in a few different ways.
Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher:
1. "Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free." and "The spells that you add to your spellbook as you gain levels reflect the arcane research you conduct on your own, as well as intellectual breakthroughs you have had about the nature of the multiverse."
OR
2. On your adventures, you might find other spells that you can add to your spellbook (see the “Your Spellbook” sidebar). Notice carefully how the comment "see the "Your Spellbook sidebar" is placed into parentheses within THIS sentence. It is NOT written as its own separate sentence within the paragraph. This is intentional. The rules and procedures listed in the Your Spellbook sidebar apply ONLY to spells that you FIND that are not yet known. We also have: "You might find other spells during your adventures. You could discover a spell recorded on a scroll in an evil wizard’s chest, for example, or in a dusty tome in an ancient library." This introduces the specific situations that apply, including:
2a) Copying a Spell -- This rule is for leveled Wizard spells that you FIND. This is a written copy of a spell that is written by another Wizard encoded in that Wizard's notation. We do not know this spell, and we do not understand what the spell says. There is a process for deciphering the spell and then encoding and writing it into the spellbook which then makes it a known spell for a Wizard. You do this at any moment of your choosing and this process has a cost.
2b) Replacing the Book -- This rule is for leveled Wizard spells that you possess in written form. This spell was written by YOU. We do NOT know this spell (because it is not in your spellbook, it is in the old spellbook which you are not using), but we DO understand what the spell says since it exists in our own notation. The process given to make this a known spell (again) involves writing it into the spellbook which then makes it a known spell (again) for a Wizard. You do this at any moment of your choosing and this process has a cost.
2b - 2) Archiving a Prepared Spell -- This rule is for leveled Wizard spells that you have prepared for casting. We do NOT know this spell (because it does not exist in the spellbook, and prepared leveled spells are only temporarily fixed in a Wizard's mind), but we DO understand what the spell says since it is currently fixed in the Wizard's mind. The process given to make this a known spell is the same as the one given to replace a spellbook in option 2b above. This then makes it a known spell (again) for a Wizard. You do this at any moment of your choosing and this process has a cost.
There are no other situations that involve a spell being added to the spellbook which has a cost.
There is a clear distinction between spells that you find and possess and spells that you directly learn in other ways.
No, no NO!!! This is a gross misunderstanding of the rules for Wizards. If you look at how the spellcasting section is organized, they start by talking about Cantrips and then they introduce the concept that a Wizard uses a spellbook. This section is explaining what a spellbook is, how it functions and why it's important. This is not a section that just gives information about a Wizard's starting spells. That is just totally incorrect. Then, much further down there is a section about learning spells, which then refers to the Your Spellbook sidebar for rules about spells that are found.
The Spellcasting --> Spellbook section of the rules is spelling it out that known spells for a Wizard means permanently fixed in the mind only for Cantrips, and exists in the spellbook for all leveled spells. That is the whole purpose of that section of the rules and it distinguishes the functionality of the Wizard from other spellcasters such as the Sorcerer whose known leveled spells ARE all permanently fixed in the mind. In fact, at some point along the way, that second sentence appears to have been added via errata because some older hardcopies do not have that line -- they went out of their way to spell this out to make it even more clear. A Wizard's known spells are the spells in his spellbook. It is absolutely essential to understand this in order to run Wizards correctly.
Yes, this is correct, and this is what the SAC ruling confirms. You have to select the Wizard class in order to learn the Wizard spell from the Feat by selecting that spell from the Wizard Spells list. That ruling also confirms that in addition to casting that spell as a Feat, you could also add this spell to your spellbook since it is a Wizard spell that you've learned and therefore you could prepare and cast it by using spell slots in accordance with the Wizard Spellcasting class Feature -- but only if you chose the Wizard class when acquiring the Feat.
All of these rules we're currently discussing regarding the Wizard's spellbook apply only to Wizards because the Wizard is using the rules of it's own Wizard Spellcasting class Feature. These rules for spellbooks exist within that Feature.
Arcane Tricksters have their own Spellcasting class Feature which DOES interact with Wizard Spells but which does not require or use a spellbook. The Arcane Trickster knows spells by keeping them permanently fixed in his mind -- they have no rules by which they are required to "prepare" spells in order to cast them.
Right, I was talking about multiclassing. According to you, a Wizard/Rogue (AT) or Fighter (EK) would instantly put any spells they learn from their non-Wizard classes into their Wizard spellbook.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Nowhere in the feat it says it's added to your spellbook, and SAC say you could add to your spellbook and subsequently prepare, not that it is already in it.
So you need to add it in your spellbook, following the rules for when find other spells during your adventures in Your Spellbook.
Another Q&A in Sage Advice Compendium that refer to class spell = spell list
Ah, I see what you're saying now. Yes, a Wizard/Rogue (AT) would be a pretty odd combination to multi-class into since these share so many capabilities. But indeed, I do believe that it should work this way, and perhaps that's a main benefit of choosing this multi-class. To be clear, this wouldn't apply to "any" spells they learn from their non-Wizard classes, only to "Wizard spells". So, for example, if the Spell Thief ability is used to steal a Cleric spell, that doesn't go into the spellbook since the spellbook is only a repository of the Wizard spells that you know.
Note that there is one rule that severely handicaps such a multi-class character, from the PHB Chapter 6:
So, for example, a Wizard 1 / Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 19 would have the following spell slots:
1st Level spell slots: 2
and that's it.
This sort of solves potential headaches such as when this character might try to steal a 3rd level spell during battle using the Spell Thief ability and having a 3rd level spell get added to a 1st Level Wizard's spellbook . . . because of the above rule this character simply cannot steal a 3rd level spell. On the other hand, if a 1st level spell is stolen, it's unclear if this should remain permanently in the spellbook or if it should mysteriously disappear from the spellbook after 8 hours -- admittedly, this is "weird interaction" as you mentioned. But what is the alternative interpretation of "learning" a Wizard spell? If the character has Wizard levels and learns a spell from the Wizard Spells list then that spell should end up in the spellbook -- nothing else even remotely makes any sense according to all of the rules that we've been discussing.
No, I disagree strongly with this interpretation of the SAC Ruling -- they are not using the word "could" in that way. They are saying that you have options. Since you are a Wizard who has learned a Wizard spell from the Wizard Spells list, you "could" use your Spellcasting class Feature to cast the spell by using spell slots. This involves preparing the spell from your spellbook and then casting the spell with the spell slot. OR, you "could" cast the spell by using the Feat, which does not require preparation and does not use a spell slot. They are saying that the player who controls this character "could" just go ahead and add this spell to the spellbook on their character sheet so that they have more than one way to cast the spell.
They are not at all implying that you have somehow learned the spell without adding it to your spellbook and could potentially choose to not add it somehow. That's not what they are talking about there. They are also not implying that this is a "found" spell that has not yet been learned and that you must now use the procedure for found spells in order to actually learn it.
And to prepare it you must first have copied it in your spellbook, It's not an interpretation, it's what's said SAC doesn't say you "could use your Spellcasting class Feature'' It says you ''coulld add to your spellbook''. So with Magic Initiate. you learn a 1st-level wizard spell that you can cast once before you finish a long rest and if you're wizard, you could add to your spellbook and subsequently prepare it.
You would then be able to cast it using your Spellcasting feature. All SAC says is you could add it to your spellbook, which has rules if you do like i said.
The SAC doesn't say anything about using those rules. It only says that you could add the spell to the spellbook. You've learned the spell, so you could add it to the spellbook.
The only other possibility that might make sense is that spells are learned only according to the Feature that you learn it from and you would have to keep track of that in your character sheet. So, learning a Wizard Spell via the rules in your Wizard Spellcasting class Feature is tracked separately from the Wizard Spells that you learn via a Feat.
Keep in mind that this interpretation would make the entire SAC Ruling completely wrong. Because now we'd be talking about the spellbook ONLY being accessible at all when the spell is learned in a way that is specified by the Wizard Spellcasting class Feature, such as when the Wizard levels up. If you learn a Wizard spell via a Feat, you would never be able to add it to the spellbook under any circumstance because under this interpretation the spellbook only exists within the rules of the Wizard Spellcasting class Feature and the spell was not learned via that Feature. So now you would have Wizard spells that you've learned which exist in your spellbook (which is supposed to be the repository of the Wizard spells that you know) and then you would also have Wizard spells that you have learned via a specific Feat, which are not in the spellbook and can never be added to the spellbook. These are completely separate from each other even though they are all Wizard spells. I find an interpretation like that to be problematic for a lot of reasons.
Well, according to you, there shouldn't be any "could," and there shouldn't be any "add." Your interpretation says that all Wizard spells you know instantly go into your spellbook, without any decision or transcription needed, and that Wizard spells you know and Wizard spells in your spellbook are one in the same. Your interpretation and the SAC don't agree.
Yeah, that's correct. Of course you track them separately. They have a bunch of different rules linked to them.
The SAC ruling is wrong, yes, but it's very close to being right, thanks to the rule that lets you copy down spells that you've prepared (but technically not spells that you've learned and can cast but haven't prepare). And anyways, you'd still be able to add spells that you've learned from the feat, you'd just have to do it one of the normal ways you learn spells (finding it in the wild or levelling up).
I don't. Elaborate.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Which DDB does automatically for you. Almost as though there's a good reason for keeping track of it
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Ah, very interesting. That line doesn't appear for me when I look it up online in DDB -- I guess that's not considered to be part of the basic rules. It does show up in the hard copy of the PHB though. Good catch. So I guess the available spell slots under those rules would be:
1st Level: 4, 2nd Level: 3, 3rd Level: 3, 4th Level: 1
So now we're back to the oddity that Spell Thief would put a higher level spell into the spellbook. This character with 1 Wizard level (but 20 total levels) could have a 4th level spell in his spellbook this way. But according to the multi-class rules, he wouldn't be able to prepare and cast that spell using the Wizard Spellcasting class Feature.
That's correct. It does match up with the SAC far better than the alternative as long as you read that last line in the way that I am reading it, in context with the rest of the paragraph. Just so the whole thing doesn't have to be re-quoted, just refer back to the entire ruling from Post #69. You have to read the entire ruling together to get the meaning behind it. The dev is answering a question about "can you use spell slots to cast the spell". The answer is yes, as long as you choose the appropriate class when acquiring the Feat. If you did that, then you (the player) could cast the spell in this way. For example, as a Sorcerer, known spells are fixed in your mind so you could cast the spell using your spell slots. Or, as a Wizard, known spells are in your spell book so if you want you (the player) could add the spell to the spellbook and then prepare and cast the spell that way. This is written as an explanation for whether or not you can cast the spell with spell slots -- it's not a mechanical explanation of how the Wizard class works. You are reading too much into the "could" and the "add" here. This is an explanation to the player that he could cast the spell this way, nothing more.
Ok, honestly I'm coming around to this interpretation. But just so we're clear, this means that the SAC Ruling is dead wrong about this. It wouldn't be the first time -- a lot of their rulings are wrong, although some folks don't seem to want to agree with that.
The key to this interpretation is that the spellbook only exists within the context of the Wizard Spellcasting class Feature and it's not, like, a general property of a Wizard or something. So, there is no way to interact with this spellbook without going through this Feature to do so.
I just find it really weird that a Wizard can learn a spell in some other way and that spell CANNOT be added to the spellbook by any means, even if he wanted to. Like, he is carrying around this spellbook, and he knows a spell, and he cannot put it in there no matter what. That's pretty immersion breaking for me, but it does sort of align with how all of the various rules are organized so maybe this is valid.
Immersion is as breakable as you allow it to be
If your wizard has Fey Touched -- a feat which literally says they have been touched by the Fey realm in some fashion -- their ability to teleport and figure out the properties of magic items could function completely differently than their usual "wizard" spells. They may not even really understand how they do those things, until they find a scroll or spellbook with another version of those spells that approaches them from a different, and more wizardly, angle
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Fey touched is different from Magic Initiate. It explicitly allows the character to cast the spells "learned" through the Fey Touched feat using any spell slots they may have from other features or class levels. Effectively, it doesn't matter whether the spell is in a spellbook since the feat essentially grants two permanently prepared spells with an additional free casting 1/day ... which Magic Initiate does not (probably because it would provide an easy way to obtain the shield spell with limited investment).
"You learn the misty step spell and one 1st-level spell of your choice. The 1st-level spell must be from the divination or enchantment school of magic. You can cast each of these spells without expending a spell slot. Once you cast either of these spells in this way, you can’t cast that spell in this way again until you finish a long rest. You can also cast these spells using spell slots you have of the appropriate level. The spells’ spellcasting ability is the ability increased by this feat."
You seem to have missed the point regarding "immersion"
There's always a way to flavor a mechanic that explains a limitation or apparent inconsistency
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)