Silvery barbs is triggered when the creature succeeds on an attack roll. This occurs when the attack hits its initial target.
Why doesn't it work on cloud rune? ... because there is NO attack roll.
Cloud rune: "In addition, when you or a creature you can see within 30 feet of you is hit by an attack roll, you can use your reaction to invoke the rune and choose a different creature within 30 feet of you, other than the attacker. The chosen creature becomes the target of the attack, using the same roll."
Of course there is an attack roll, without one the attack wouldn't be able to hit the new target. The Cloud Rune clearly says there is a roll, the same one specifically.
The redirection does not involve a new attack roll ... it uses the same one that has already been resolved.The original attacker succeeded on their attack roll already which could have triggered Silvery Barbs (being an ally doesn't matter). Cloud rune can not be triggered on a miss, so the attacker has already succeeded on their attack roll and silvery barbs can not be triggered on a creature targeted without making an attack roll. The redirection from Cloud Rune does not require a new attack roll and so isn't a valid target for Silvery Barbs.
Yes it was resolved but the use of the Cloud Rune has un-resolved it and it now needs to be re-resolved to determine if the attack roll hits the second target or not. The dice may already have been rolled but the success of the attack roll has not been determined yet.
I feel like a lot of this thread is people using the same word to mean different things
Reads more like a DM disagreement on exactly when would the spell affect the rune feature. It could go both ways depending on how the DM controlling the battle wants it to play out.
maybe this is supposed to be a difficult fight, and might decide to not allow silvery barbs to change the attack( while not have the caster waste the spell, or does froce the waste, to increase the difficulty, options are good), or this is a distraction fight for the party meant to slow them up a bit, and the dm decides to allow silvery barbs to pull the punch of the unexpected friendly fire, just so players are given a chance to move on quickly.
Really, form the little we got from the initial post, its 50/50
You could just as easily argue that the cloud rune simply changes the original target choice though, and doesn't require going through all the steps again. In fact, that might be the more logical approach, since you don't determine advantage/disadvantage again on the new target -- no additional to-hit dice get rolled after using the rune. You simply remain on the 'Resolve the attack' step, just with a different AC input to determine resolution
You need to determine modifiers again for redirected attack because the new target can have cover or impose other penalty to attack roll against it. This step takes place after you choose target and before you resolve an attack.
If Cloud Rune just redirected the damage, then you wouldn't need to go throught the entire attack structure again, but it's not what it does here.
This did make me wonder about such things. Let's say the attack against the rune knight is a straight roll, but the redirected target is prone. I know the cloud rune feature says it transfers "the attack’s effects regardless of the attack’s range", but would the redirected attack have advantage, disadvantage, or none of the above?
I would follow the attack structure, determine modifier and thus potentially affect the attack's roll redirected by Cloud Rune if the new target benefit from advantage/disadvantage, cover or other bonus/penalty if such circumstance would normally affect an attack roll.
This did make me wonder about such things. Let's say the attack against the rune knight is a straight roll, but the redirected target is prone. I know the cloud rune feature says it transfers "the attack’s effects regardless of the attack’s range", but would the redirected attack have advantage, disadvantage, or none of the above?
The reverse scenario was more common from my time playing rune knight -- you attack a weaker, prone target to crit fish, and then transfer the 20 to a stronger target
In that game we always played it as you take advantage/disadvantage as it applied to the original target and original roll, not the target the rune transferred it to
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If you skip the attack structure's step to determine modifier, then the redirected attack could be against a target behind total cover for exemple.
That's actually debatably possible per a literal reading of Cloud Rune; while you need to see the attacker whose spell you're redirecting, all it says for the new target is "you can use your reaction to invoke the rune and choose a different creature within 30 feet of you, other than the attacker." So technically the description could be interpreted to allow you to redirect through total cover, since the only criteria given for the new target is "within 30 ft and not the attacker". Although in practice a DM would probably just say that "target you can see" is still implicit in the redirect.
This did make me wonder about such things. Let's say the attack against the rune knight is a straight roll, but the redirected target is prone. I know the cloud rune feature says it transfers "the attack’s effects regardless of the attack’s range", but would the redirected attack have advantage, disadvantage, or none of the above?
Yea I had that thought too. The way it is worded is somewhat problematic as it only requires you to see the creature that is receiving the original attack but not the creature that the attack is being redirected at. And it implies that you shouldn't adjust for advantage/disadvantage too (possibly not for anything else either).
I would probably not allow it to be redirected through total cover though.
If you skip the attack structure's step to determine modifier, then the redirected attack could be against a target behind total cover for exemple.
That's actually debatably possible per a literal reading of Cloud Rune; while you need to see the attacker whose spell you're redirecting, all it says for the new target is "you can use your reaction to invoke the rune and choose a different creature within 30 feet of you, other than the attacker." So technically the description could be interpreted to allow you to redirect through total cover, since the only criteria given for the new target is "within 30 ft and not the attacker". Although in practice a DM would probably just say that "target you can see" is still implicit in the redirect.
You should never assume that "target you can see" is implicit, as that's very important wording used in many spells and abilities.
However, a DM ruling that there has to be at least a clear path (which full cover could prevent) would be fair by me.
If you skip the attack structure's step to determine modifier, then the redirected attack could be against a target behind total cover for exemple.
That's actually debatably possible per a literal reading of Cloud Rune; while you need to see the attacker whose spell you're redirecting, all it says for the new target is "you can use your reaction to invoke the rune and choose a different creature within 30 feet of you, other than the attacker." So technically the description could be interpreted to allow you to redirect through total cover, since the only criteria given for the new target is "within 30 ft and not the attacker". Although in practice a DM would probably just say that "target you can see" is still implicit in the redirect.
You should never assume that "target you can see" is implicit, as that's very important wording used in many spells and abilities.
However, a DM ruling that there has to be at least a clear path (which full cover could prevent) would be fair by me.
Which is why I noted what the RAW reads as first and then gave my opinion on what the typical on the spot call would be.
Another weird thing is that Cloud Rune seem to let a chosen creature within 30 feet of you becomes the target of the attack regardless if it's within reach/range of it or not.
If you skip the attack structure's step to determine modifier, then the redirected attack could be against a target behind total cover for exemple.
That's actually debatably possible per a literal reading of Cloud Rune; while you need to see the attacker whose spell you're redirecting, all it says for the new target is "you can use your reaction to invoke the rune and choose a different creature within 30 feet of you, other than the attacker." So technically the description could be interpreted to allow you to redirect through total cover, since the only criteria given for the new target is "within 30 ft and not the attacker". Although in practice a DM would probably just say that "target you can see" is still implicit in the redirect.
Since cloud rune seems to have been deliberately written to allow for this, I don't think that's implicit at all. It would be pretty situational for me as a DM.
Creature is behind a wall and you have no reasonable way of knowing it's there, even though you can see the token on Roll20? I wouldn't allow it
Creature is hiding in a darkness spell you saw them cast? Yup,. cloud rune away
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
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Of course there is an attack roll, without one the attack wouldn't be able to hit the new target. The Cloud Rune clearly says there is a roll, the same one specifically.
Yes it was resolved but the use of the Cloud Rune has un-resolved it and it now needs to be re-resolved to determine if the attack roll hits the second target or not. The dice may already have been rolled but the success of the attack roll has not been determined yet.
Reads more like a DM disagreement on exactly when would the spell affect the rune feature. It could go both ways depending on how the DM controlling the battle wants it to play out.
maybe this is supposed to be a difficult fight, and might decide to not allow silvery barbs to change the attack( while not have the caster waste the spell, or does froce the waste, to increase the difficulty, options are good), or this is a distraction fight for the party meant to slow them up a bit, and the dm decides to allow silvery barbs to pull the punch of the unexpected friendly fire, just so players are given a chance to move on quickly.
Really, form the little we got from the initial post, its 50/50
You need to determine modifiers again for redirected attack because the new target can have cover or impose other penalty to attack roll against it. This step takes place after you choose target and before you resolve an attack.
If Cloud Rune just redirected the damage, then you wouldn't need to go throught the entire attack structure again, but it's not what it does here.
This did make me wonder about such things. Let's say the attack against the rune knight is a straight roll, but the redirected target is prone. I know the cloud rune feature says it transfers "the attack’s effects regardless of the attack’s range", but would the redirected attack have advantage, disadvantage, or none of the above?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I would follow the attack structure, determine modifier and thus potentially affect the attack's roll redirected by Cloud Rune if the new target benefit from advantage/disadvantage, cover or other bonus/penalty if such circumstance would normally affect an attack roll.
The reverse scenario was more common from my time playing rune knight -- you attack a weaker, prone target to crit fish, and then transfer the 20 to a stronger target
In that game we always played it as you take advantage/disadvantage as it applied to the original target and original roll, not the target the rune transferred it to
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If you skip the attack structure's step to determine modifier, then the redirected attack could be against a target behind total cover for exemple.
That's actually debatably possible per a literal reading of Cloud Rune; while you need to see the attacker whose spell you're redirecting, all it says for the new target is "you can use your reaction to invoke the rune and choose a different creature within 30 feet of you, other than the attacker." So technically the description could be interpreted to allow you to redirect through total cover, since the only criteria given for the new target is "within 30 ft and not the attacker". Although in practice a DM would probably just say that "target you can see" is still implicit in the redirect.
Yea I had that thought too. The way it is worded is somewhat problematic as it only requires you to see the creature that is receiving the original attack but not the creature that the attack is being redirected at. And it implies that you shouldn't adjust for advantage/disadvantage too (possibly not for anything else either).
I would probably not allow it to be redirected through total cover though.
You should never assume that "target you can see" is implicit, as that's very important wording used in many spells and abilities.
However, a DM ruling that there has to be at least a clear path (which full cover could prevent) would be fair by me.
Which is why I noted what the RAW reads as first and then gave my opinion on what the typical on the spot call would be.
Another weird thing is that Cloud Rune seem to let a chosen creature within 30 feet of you becomes the target of the attack regardless if it's within reach/range of it or not.
Since cloud rune seems to have been deliberately written to allow for this, I don't think that's implicit at all. It would be pretty situational for me as a DM.
Creature is behind a wall and you have no reasonable way of knowing it's there, even though you can see the token on Roll20? I wouldn't allow it
Creature is hiding in a darkness spell you saw them cast? Yup,. cloud rune away
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)