Having been inspired by this thread, I have come to the conclusion that no, you cannot scribe an upcast spell.
per the SAC: Unless you have a special ability that says otherwise, the only way to increase the level of a spell is to expend a higher-level spell slot when you cast it
Spell scrolls do not have spell slots, and do not have any special rules indicating that they can be of a higher level than base level. And since spell scrolls are casting a spell without expending a spell slot (as they are magic items), they must be cast at base level. Even when using the DMG spell scroll scribing rules, you are expending a spell slot, sure... and the material components are consumed... but there's no verbal or somatic components, ergo you are not casting the spell, and as such, the scroll can only ever be at base level.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I disagree. There are definitely magic items (wand of fireballs, staff of healing, staff of fire, staff of power, I'm sure among others) that cast spells above their base level. There is no reason that this must be limited to some magic items and not scrolls.
The rule about upcasting is all about "I have this thing, can I use it to cast a 9th level fireball from it?" No, you get the spell at the level the item says. You can't get a scroll of a particular level spell and upcast it, but if you get/make a scroll of cure wounds (3rd level version), then you should be able to use that thing just like you can use the 5th level lightning bolt that the staff of power says you can use.
Clearly items exist with higher level versions of spells exist, so why shouldn't one be able to make them?
So how would you craft such a spell scroll? I'd say you could use the Xanathar's rules, though i might also require that the character could cast such a spell with an action before they attempt to make a scroll.
I disagree. There are definitely magic items (wand of fireballs, staff of healing, staff of fire, staff of power, I'm sure among others) that cast spells above their base level. There is no reason that this must be limited to some magic items and not scrolls.
The rule about upcasting is all about "I have this thing, can I use it to cast a 9th level fireball from it?" No, you get the spell at the level the item says. You can't get a scroll of a particular level spell and upcast it, but if you get/make a scroll of cure wounds (3rd level version), then you should be able to use that thing just like you can use the 5th level lightning bolt that the staff of power says you can use.
Clearly items exist with higher level versions of spells exist, so why shouldn't one be able to make them?
So how would you craft such a spell scroll? I'd say you could use the Xanathar's rules, though i might also require that the character could cast such a spell with an action before they attempt to make a scroll.
Yes, but those specific magic items also *explicitly* grant the ability to upcast those spells or cast them at a specific defined spell level. That's the difference.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Right but if i specifically upcast that fireball to level 5 and then use the time and cost for a level 5 scroll then I would have a level 5 fireball scroll. The only limit i found for scrolls in Xanthars is this line.
If the scribed spell is a cantrip, the version on the scroll works as if the caster were 1st level.
Past that it just says what level your casting it at and that you need that spell prepared.
Right but if i specifically upcast that fireball to level 5 and then use the time and cost for a level 5 scroll then I would have a level 5 fireball scroll. The only limit i found for scrolls in Xanthars is this line.
If the scribed spell is a cantrip, the version on the scroll works as if the caster were 1st level.
Past that it just says what level your casting it at and that you need that spell prepared.
nowhere does it say you're casting the spell outside of when you use the spell scroll.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Right but if i specifically upcast that fireball to level 5 and then use the time and cost for a level 5 scroll then I would have a level 5 fireball scroll. The only limit i found for scrolls in Xanthars is this line.
If the scribed spell is a cantrip, the version on the scroll works as if the caster were 1st level.
Past that it just says what level your casting it at and that you need that spell prepared.
nowhere does it say you're casting the spell outside of when you use the spell scroll.
Casting a Spell at a Higher Level
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.
Some spells, such as magic missile and cure wounds, have more powerful effects when cast at a higher level, as detailed in a spell’s description.
I would say the rules for casting at a higher level combine rather nicely into crafting. Since crafting items is only a loosely recommended capability in 5e anyway, there's nothing saying you CAN'T craft a scroll at a higher level. And since an upcast version is, officially, the higher level, that removes any conflict of rules.
Run it how you want at your table, but there's nothing saying it's impossible and very little talking about it at all, so if players want to do it, why not?
The problems come in when your no longer the owner of that scroll.
Keeping track of all the different levels was simplified down to just their base casting level.
As has been stated many times in this forum. You can not compare the magic items you create to anything in the books. All their magics were either lost or are personal spells with new effects that only that caster knows.
No there is no rule stopping you from making up cast scrolls or potions. But why have there never been any before now?
The problems come in when your no longer the owner of that scroll.
Keeping track of all the different levels was simplified down to just their base casting level.
As has been stated many times in this forum. You can not compare the magic items you create to anything in the books. All their magics were either lost or are personal spells with new effects that only that caster knows.
No there is no rule stopping you from making up cast scrolls or potions. But why have there never been any before now?
You're kinda scrambling mechanics with narrative here, and it doesn't really make sense to begin with. Potions are generally a separate matter from scrolls since only a few directly cast spells in any case, and why do you assume that there's no scrolls "out in the wild" that are set at upcast levels? The magic item entry for Spell Scroll doesn't itemize by spell, just level. Ergo there's no reason a DM can't hand out a 5th level scroll of Cure Wounds as loot the party finds along the way.
The problems come in when your no longer the owner of that scroll.
Keeping track of all the different levels was simplified down to just their base casting level.
As has been stated many times in this forum. You can not compare the magic items you create to anything in the books. All their magics were either lost or are personal spells with new effects that only that caster knows.
No there is no rule stopping you from making up cast scrolls or potions. But why have there never been any before now?
You're kinda scrambling mechanics with narrative here, and it doesn't really make sense to begin with. Potions are generally a separate matter from scrolls since only a few directly cast spells in any case, and why do you assume that there's no scrolls "out in the wild" that are set at upcast levels? The magic item entry for Spell Scroll doesn't itemize by spell, just level. Ergo there's no reason a DM can't hand out a 5th level scroll of Cure Wounds as loot the party finds along the way.
This was a question I didn't know the answer to immediately: do any official adventures hand out spell scrolls at levels other than base level as loot? I can't recall off the top of my head.
The problems come in when your no longer the owner of that scroll.
Keeping track of all the different levels was simplified down to just their base casting level.
As has been stated many times in this forum. You can not compare the magic items you create to anything in the books. All their magics were either lost or are personal spells with new effects that only that caster knows.
No there is no rule stopping you from making up cast scrolls or potions. But why have there never been any before now?
You're kinda scrambling mechanics with narrative here, and it doesn't really make sense to begin with. Potions are generally a separate matter from scrolls since only a few directly cast spells in any case, and why do you assume that there's no scrolls "out in the wild" that are set at upcast levels? The magic item entry for Spell Scroll doesn't itemize by spell, just level. Ergo there's no reason a DM can't hand out a 5th level scroll of Cure Wounds as loot the party finds along the way.
This was a question I didn't know the answer to immediately: do any official adventures hand out spell scrolls at levels other than base level as loot? I can't recall off the top of my head.
No, none do. which is also setting the precedent, imo.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Maybe, but it's pretty shaky proof of intent when the description for scrolls describes no such restriction and is entirely capable of accommodating upcast spells.
The problems come in when your no longer the owner of that scroll.
Keeping track of all the different levels was simplified down to just their base casting level.
Yeah, I remember having to keep track of different scrolls for spells of different levels back in older editions. The bookkeeping was a nightmare and easy to make mistakes which lead to at least a couple of times I swear some of those mistakes were more “mistakes” than mistakes if you get my drift. Keeping everything at base level is much much simpler and way less of a headache for both players and DMs. Setting standard spell attack modifiers and save DCs for spell scrolls based on level instead of the creator’s stats is much easier to keep track of too. God I remember have g a separate sheet of paper just to track all the different spell scrolls with different stats and levels for one of my characters once when the campaign went long enough. My next caster I couldn’t dump my scrolls off fast enough.
I mean, based on personal experience and observations, it'd be an uncommon campaign where you end up with enough scrolls that the bookkeeping is not easy in 5e. Making anything above 2nd level takes a week or more each, so unless you take a months long time skip during the campaign you're not going to have much opportunity to make many. And the gold cost spikes pretty good at 4th level as well. I've never seen them handed out much as rewards/loot either.
Regarding tracking, the scroll stats are standardized by level in 5e, and it's not particularly hard to write "Scroll of Cure Wounds (1st level), Scroll of Cure Wounds (4th level), etc." I dunno, the logistics don't seem particularly daunting if you have one of those small note pads to write the list on.
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Are there rules in place if I want to make a prayer of healing scroll at the third level, or can I only make it at the base spell level?
Looking at the XGtE section on scribing scrolls, I'd just say use the 3rd level time and gold costs and have 3rd level spell slots.
that was what I was thinking but I didn't know if there was a hard ruling saying this couldn't be done in a sourcebook I didn't have access to.
If the spell can be up cast I don't see why not. You would just be making it at that level, so you just need to pay the cost for a third level spell,
There’s nothing really preventing it, it’s just not common practice for simplicity is all.
Having been inspired by this thread, I have come to the conclusion that no, you cannot scribe an upcast spell.
per the SAC: Unless you have a special ability that says otherwise, the only way to increase the level of a spell is to expend a higher-level spell slot when you cast it
Spell scrolls do not have spell slots, and do not have any special rules indicating that they can be of a higher level than base level. And since spell scrolls are casting a spell without expending a spell slot (as they are magic items), they must be cast at base level. Even when using the DMG spell scroll scribing rules, you are expending a spell slot, sure... and the material components are consumed... but there's no verbal or somatic components, ergo you are not casting the spell, and as such, the scroll can only ever be at base level.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I disagree. There are definitely magic items (wand of fireballs, staff of healing, staff of fire, staff of power, I'm sure among others) that cast spells above their base level. There is no reason that this must be limited to some magic items and not scrolls.
The rule about upcasting is all about "I have this thing, can I use it to cast a 9th level fireball from it?" No, you get the spell at the level the item says. You can't get a scroll of a particular level spell and upcast it, but if you get/make a scroll of cure wounds (3rd level version), then you should be able to use that thing just like you can use the 5th level lightning bolt that the staff of power says you can use.
Clearly items exist with higher level versions of spells exist, so why shouldn't one be able to make them?
So how would you craft such a spell scroll? I'd say you could use the Xanathar's rules, though i might also require that the character could cast such a spell with an action before they attempt to make a scroll.
Yes, but those specific magic items also *explicitly* grant the ability to upcast those spells or cast them at a specific defined spell level. That's the difference.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Right and you are *explicitly* crafting one of those items that *explicitly* allows you to cast a spell at a higher level. What is the problem again?
Right but if i specifically upcast that fireball to level 5 and then use the time and cost for a level 5 scroll then I would have a level 5 fireball scroll. The only limit i found for scrolls in Xanthars is this line.
If the scribed spell is a cantrip, the version on the scroll works as if the caster were 1st level.
Past that it just says what level your casting it at and that you need that spell prepared.
nowhere does it say you're casting the spell outside of when you use the spell scroll.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I would say the rules for casting at a higher level combine rather nicely into crafting. Since crafting items is only a loosely recommended capability in 5e anyway, there's nothing saying you CAN'T craft a scroll at a higher level. And since an upcast version is, officially, the higher level, that removes any conflict of rules.
Run it how you want at your table, but there's nothing saying it's impossible and very little talking about it at all, so if players want to do it, why not?
The problems come in when your no longer the owner of that scroll.
Keeping track of all the different levels was simplified down to just their base casting level.
As has been stated many times in this forum. You can not compare the magic items you create to anything in the books. All their magics were either lost or are personal spells with new effects that only that caster knows.
No there is no rule stopping you from making up cast scrolls or potions. But why have there never been any before now?
You're kinda scrambling mechanics with narrative here, and it doesn't really make sense to begin with. Potions are generally a separate matter from scrolls since only a few directly cast spells in any case, and why do you assume that there's no scrolls "out in the wild" that are set at upcast levels? The magic item entry for Spell Scroll doesn't itemize by spell, just level. Ergo there's no reason a DM can't hand out a 5th level scroll of Cure Wounds as loot the party finds along the way.
I'm on team "Yes, you can."
"Not all those who wander are lost"
This was a question I didn't know the answer to immediately: do any official adventures hand out spell scrolls at levels other than base level as loot? I can't recall off the top of my head.
No, none do. which is also setting the precedent, imo.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Maybe, but it's pretty shaky proof of intent when the description for scrolls describes no such restriction and is entirely capable of accommodating upcast spells.
Yeah, I remember having to keep track of different scrolls for spells of different levels back in older editions. The bookkeeping was a nightmare and easy to make mistakes which lead to at least a couple of times I swear some of those mistakes were more “mistakes” than mistakes if you get my drift. Keeping everything at base level is much much simpler and way less of a headache for both players and DMs. Setting standard spell attack modifiers and save DCs for spell scrolls based on level instead of the creator’s stats is much easier to keep track of too. God I remember have g a separate sheet of paper just to track all the different spell scrolls with different stats and levels for one of my characters once when the campaign went long enough. My next caster I couldn’t dump my scrolls off fast enough.
I mean, based on personal experience and observations, it'd be an uncommon campaign where you end up with enough scrolls that the bookkeeping is not easy in 5e. Making anything above 2nd level takes a week or more each, so unless you take a months long time skip during the campaign you're not going to have much opportunity to make many. And the gold cost spikes pretty good at 4th level as well. I've never seen them handed out much as rewards/loot either.
Regarding tracking, the scroll stats are standardized by level in 5e, and it's not particularly hard to write "Scroll of Cure Wounds (1st level), Scroll of Cure Wounds (4th level), etc." I dunno, the logistics don't seem particularly daunting if you have one of those small note pads to write the list on.