Our party snuck up upon some potential baddies and attacked them, everyone getting an action before the baddies, then rolling initiative. Mid-combat, our moral compass got a conscience and convinced the baddies to talk to us instead, which ended combat and initiative. We talked to them for a bit but the convo seemed to be going no where as it was unclear if they were trustworthy or not, so we “huddled” away from them to talk—one player made clear they were keeping an eye on the baddies even even rp’d it with glances—and the baddies took this opportunity to attack us while our “backs were turned” with the DM ruling we all had the Surprised condition. However, our backs weren’t literally turned because we implicitly didn’t trust them, we all had line of sight and established we were watching them, and the DM said they didn’t move the entire time until the attack.
Since the Player’s Handbook says, “If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other,” and uses very specific examples of creatures being hidden in order to surprise, I’m not sure how we could possibly be surprised by them in this situation. Other than it being the DM’s call, obviously. 🤫 It was challenged in-game but the DM said, “They had been waiting for you to do something like this,” …. but so had we lol.
I wouldn't have anyone surprised here, especially after a ''cease fire'' where each side parlay and leave while keeping an eye on the other in view and therefore not hidden.
PS i would also not let anyone attack before initiative is rolled for that matter.
PS i would also not let anyone attack before initiative is rolled for that matter.
I agree completely. Granting surprise where relevant and even allowing an initiative ability check to be made with advantage are ways of granting an initiative boost, but all attacks should happen within initiative order in my opinion.
Wait, did the player ever make a perception check or ask for one? If so, then what if the DM just rolled a stealth for one of the bad guys and it beat the perception. I agree that if that didn't happen then no surprise but if there was stealth rolled, then they were hidden. Therefore, letting a surprise attack happen.
If the story goes the way you said with no rolls made near the end. Then no surprise attack. How ever at least the beginning attack from the enemy should still be given its turn. You said that initiative ended so everyone is making turns at the same time. If 3 guys attack, then 3 guys attack and then start initiative.
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Monster Fact of the Day: Tarrasque
Tarrasque's have a magical regeneration and are able to reflect spells back at its enemies
Praise Jeff with Your Hole Heart and Soul with the Sign ofDoomJOY to Come!!!!!
In plain view, not obscured in anyway. no invisibility or even additional/different enemies, just same group as before. every combatant was aware of every other creature.
Sounds like a retroactive ruling to compensate for the previous surprise or perhaps the way the combat was going?
the initial combat was house rule too since a surprised creature can still potentially “win” initiative, go first, not act, and gain their ability to react if available while they wait for 2nd turn to act.
People have mentioned about rolling initiative before any attacks are made but not explained why it is important. When the party surprised the bandits and they were surprised meaning "they can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and can't take a reaction until that turn ends." so the surprised characters can use their reaction once their turn ends, a rogue can use uncanny doge to reduce damae of an attack if it is after their turn in the initiative order, similarly a spellcaster can cast counterspell, anyone can make an opportunity attack or any other potential uses of reaction are possible IF their first trun in combat has ended, if you don't roll initiative until the end of the first round of combat you deny the use of those reactions. Another reason is the oder the party goes can make a difference, the party might want the caster with an AOE attack to go before the melee PC runs up to the bad guys and attacks but whether this depends on the initiative order (the melee character can ready their movement or their action but not both so the melee PC can not ready a "run up and attack"
I agree the restart of combat should not have had the party surprised, there are a couple of ways of handling it: roll initiative and if a PC is top of the initiative order
DM informs the party they see the bandits prepare to swing their weapons (allowing that PC to attack first)
The DM informs them that the bantits are whispering to themselves, leaving the action to the player, the PC might decide to waive there turn, or ready an attack if any of the bandits turn hostile, openly attacking at this point (given the party had allowed the bandits to discuss things) I would consider metagaming.
The first and 4th posts seem to be misunderstanding the rules. There is no such thing as a Surprised Condition. Also, you don't take actions against baddies and then roll initiative. The baddies cannot roll for stealth while in plain view so the PCs cannot be surprised in that situation.
One tool that the DM can use sparingly is to grant advantage or disadvantage to initiative rolls. If something truly "surprising" happens during a parlay this could occasionally give someone a small edge in the situation if the story calls for that.
There were several things the DM did that weren't RAW. However, it might just be how the DM runs things but if that is the case they should let you know at the beginning of the campaign.
1) Stealth, surprise and initiative.
In my opinion, and based on RAW, there are NEVER any attacks outside of the initiative order. Some DMs allow folks attack outside of initiative if they "get the drop" on the opponents, I usually prefer to run it RAW (roll initiative, events happen in initiative order). Since surprised creatures can't take any actions on their first turn, they have to wait for the opponents to attack. If they weren't surprised (they succeeded at noticing a threat) then they can take actions in the first round.
It isn't clear whether the DM had the entire party roll stealth (or used a group stealth check) for comparison to the passive perception of the defenders. If a defender noticed ANY threat (they don't need to see them all) then they aren't surprised.
2) If you pause the fight and stand around to chat for a while then there is no stealth, both sides are aware of the threat, and there really shouldn't be any sort of surprise that the opponents you were fighting a few moments ago decided to attack again. The rules also state that if neither side is attempting to be stealthy then surprise does not apply which is pretty clear in this case.
"If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. "
In this case, I think it is just the DM misinterpreting what "surprise" means as a game mechanic vs what the word surprised means in common use. In the situation described, the characters might be surprised that the bad guys had such bad judgement as to start attacking again but they would not be "surprised" in the game sense of not being aware of a threat and thus not ready to respond.
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Our party snuck up upon some potential baddies and attacked them, everyone getting an action before the baddies, then rolling initiative. Mid-combat, our moral compass got a conscience and convinced the baddies to talk to us instead, which ended combat and initiative. We talked to them for a bit but the convo seemed to be going no where as it was unclear if they were trustworthy or not, so we “huddled” away from them to talk—one player made clear they were keeping an eye on the baddies even even rp’d it with glances—and the baddies took this opportunity to attack us while our “backs were turned” with the DM ruling we all had the Surprised condition. However, our backs weren’t literally turned because we implicitly didn’t trust them, we all had line of sight and established we were watching them, and the DM said they didn’t move the entire time until the attack.
Since the Player’s Handbook says, “If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other,” and uses very specific examples of creatures being hidden in order to surprise, I’m not sure how we could possibly be surprised by them in this situation. Other than it being the DM’s call, obviously. 🤫 It was challenged in-game but the DM said, “They had been waiting for you to do something like this,” …. but so had we lol.
How would you have ruled this?
I wouldn't have anyone surprised here, especially after a ''cease fire'' where each side parlay and leave while keeping an eye on the other in view and therefore not hidden.
PS i would also not let anyone attack before initiative is rolled for that matter.
I agree completely. Granting surprise where relevant and even allowing an initiative ability check to be made with advantage are ways of granting an initiative boost, but all attacks should happen within initiative order in my opinion.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Wait, did the player ever make a perception check or ask for one? If so, then what if the DM just rolled a stealth for one of the bad guys and it beat the perception. I agree that if that didn't happen then no surprise but if there was stealth rolled, then they were hidden. Therefore, letting a surprise attack happen.
If the story goes the way you said with no rolls made near the end. Then no surprise attack. How ever at least the beginning attack from the enemy should still be given its turn. You said that initiative ended so everyone is making turns at the same time. If 3 guys attack, then 3 guys attack and then start initiative.
Monster Fact of the Day: Tarrasque
Tarrasque's have a magical regeneration and are able to reflect spells back at its enemies
Praise Jeff with Your Hole Heart and Soul with the Sign of
DoomJOY to Come!!!!!Not at all.
In plain view, not obscured in anyway. no invisibility or even additional/different enemies, just same group as before. every combatant was aware of every other creature.
Sounds like a retroactive ruling to compensate for the previous surprise or perhaps the way the combat was going?
the initial combat was house rule too since a surprised creature can still potentially “win” initiative, go first, not act, and gain their ability to react if available while they wait for 2nd turn to act.
seems to be water under the fridge though.
People have mentioned about rolling initiative before any attacks are made but not explained why it is important. When the party surprised the bandits and they were surprised meaning "they can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and can't take a reaction until that turn ends." so the surprised characters can use their reaction once their turn ends, a rogue can use uncanny doge to reduce damae of an attack if it is after their turn in the initiative order, similarly a spellcaster can cast counterspell, anyone can make an opportunity attack or any other potential uses of reaction are possible IF their first trun in combat has ended, if you don't roll initiative until the end of the first round of combat you deny the use of those reactions. Another reason is the oder the party goes can make a difference, the party might want the caster with an AOE attack to go before the melee PC runs up to the bad guys and attacks but whether this depends on the initiative order (the melee character can ready their movement or their action but not both so the melee PC can not ready a "run up and attack"
I agree the restart of combat should not have had the party surprised, there are a couple of ways of handling it: roll initiative and if a PC is top of the initiative order
The first and 4th posts seem to be misunderstanding the rules. There is no such thing as a Surprised Condition. Also, you don't take actions against baddies and then roll initiative. The baddies cannot roll for stealth while in plain view so the PCs cannot be surprised in that situation.
One tool that the DM can use sparingly is to grant advantage or disadvantage to initiative rolls. If something truly "surprising" happens during a parlay this could occasionally give someone a small edge in the situation if the story calls for that.
There were several things the DM did that weren't RAW. However, it might just be how the DM runs things but if that is the case they should let you know at the beginning of the campaign.
1) Stealth, surprise and initiative.
In my opinion, and based on RAW, there are NEVER any attacks outside of the initiative order. Some DMs allow folks attack outside of initiative if they "get the drop" on the opponents, I usually prefer to run it RAW (roll initiative, events happen in initiative order). Since surprised creatures can't take any actions on their first turn, they have to wait for the opponents to attack. If they weren't surprised (they succeeded at noticing a threat) then they can take actions in the first round.
It isn't clear whether the DM had the entire party roll stealth (or used a group stealth check) for comparison to the passive perception of the defenders. If a defender noticed ANY threat (they don't need to see them all) then they aren't surprised.
2) If you pause the fight and stand around to chat for a while then there is no stealth, both sides are aware of the threat, and there really shouldn't be any sort of surprise that the opponents you were fighting a few moments ago decided to attack again. The rules also state that if neither side is attempting to be stealthy then surprise does not apply which is pretty clear in this case.
"If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. "
In this case, I think it is just the DM misinterpreting what "surprise" means as a game mechanic vs what the word surprised means in common use. In the situation described, the characters might be surprised that the bad guys had such bad judgement as to start attacking again but they would not be "surprised" in the game sense of not being aware of a threat and thus not ready to respond.