The final fight with Vecna is actually much more difficult than it seems. According to RAW, the chime of exile can be used to cast banishment (A 4th level spell), but Vecna’s dread counterspell reaction allows him to instantly counter any spell of 4th level or lower. With three reactions (only one per turn), and the chime of exile only working once per long rest, Vecna can easily counter the chime and force the characters to take a long rest (Which they can’t), and they can’t kill Vecna normally as he’ll just go back to the cave and finish the ritual when he reincarnates. So, in conclusion, Vecna eve of ruin is impossible to complete with less than 4 characters. What?!
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Some Players Make brilliant characters. I kill those characters
I haven't bought the adventure and I don't plan on buying it, but as you've described it a character with the Chime could Ready it as an action to be used in reaction to Vecna using Dread Counterspell. Since Vecna can only use one reaction on each turn, activating the Chime as a reaction to his reaction would circumvent his ability to counter it.
You can use it to cast banishment as an action. Dread counterspell functions just like a 4th level counterspell, except Vecna can take 3 reactions in one round. Your theory would work, but the player’s most likely won’t know that Vecna can counter it, and if they do that and ready it as a reaction, first of all they’re really smart, and second, they must also be able to see Vecna to target him. If the reaction trigger is “Whenever Vecna takes a reaction, I use the chime of exile” it could be him using the teleport from attack reaction, which could allow him to hide behind a wall, and stop the reaction.
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Some Players Make brilliant characters. I kill those characters
The text of the adventure pretty clearly does not offer Vecna a chance to use a reaction. It seems a bit arbitrary, but it is what it is.
Rules as Written, provided that he has a reaction, he can counter it without having to make an ability check. I know it doesn’t make logical sense, but that is what the book says. Honestly I would probably throw my players a bone and not counter it.
The text of the adventure pretty clearly does not offer Vecna a chance to use a reaction. It seems a bit arbitrary, but it is what it is.
Rules as Written, provided that he has a reaction, he can counter it without having to make an ability check. I know it doesn’t make logical sense, but that is what the book says. Honestly I would probably throw my players a bone and not counter it.
That is not correct. The text of the adventure is clear; the players target Vecna with the chime, and then the conclusion of the adventure just happens. They do not have to actually cast Banishment from it, nor does the text allow any kind of reaction. What happens just happens. That is what the book says.
The text of the adventure pretty clearly does not offer Vecna a chance to use a reaction. It seems a bit arbitrary, but it is what it is.
Rules as Written, provided that he has a reaction, he can counter it without having to make an ability check. I know it doesn’t make logical sense, but that is what the book says. Honestly I would probably throw my players a bone and not counter it.
That is not correct. The text of the adventure is clear; the players target Vecna with the chime, and then the conclusion of the adventure just happens. They do not have to actually cast Banishment from it, nor does the text allow any kind of reaction. What happens just happens. That is what the book says.
Reading over it again, yes you are correct, all the book says is that they have to target him with the chime after he’s at 50 hit points or fewer. The same isn’t true for Kas, though. With him the players MUST use the chime and he must be at less than 50hp. So the Vecna problem is solved, but if the player’s misjudge Kas’s hp, it will fail, and they’re only hope is to kill him.
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Some Players Make brilliant characters. I kill those characters
The final fight with Vecna is actually much more difficult than it seems. According to RAW, the chime of exile can be used to cast banishment (A 4th level spell), but Vecna’s dread counterspell reaction allows him to instantly counter any spell of 4th level or lower. With three reactions (only one per turn), and the chime of exile only working once per long rest, Vecna can easily counter the chime and force the characters to take a long rest (Which they can’t), and they can’t kill Vecna normally as he’ll just go back to the cave and finish the ritual when he reincarnates. So, in conclusion, Vecna eve of ruin is impossible to complete with less than 4 characters. What?!
Chime of Exile is a magic item, which means any spell cast from it is done so without components (unless explicitly stated)
Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item, often by expending charges from it. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell and caster level, doesn’t expend any of the user’s spell slots, and requires no components unless the item’s description says otherwise.
Dread Counterspell specifies that Vecna must be able to see target casting a spell, and per SAC if a spell has no components, you cannot perceive it being cast
If a sorcerer casts a spell with only verbal or somatic components using Subtle Spell, can an opponent use counterspell against it?
If a spell that’s altered by Subtle Spell has no material component, then it’s impossible for anyone to perceive the spell being cast. So, since you can’t see the casting, counterspell is of no use.
This means it's not possible for Vecna RAW to counterspell banishment from the item
The final fight with Vecna is actually much more difficult than it seems. According to RAW, the chime of exile can be used to cast banishment (A 4th level spell), but Vecna’s dread counterspell reaction allows him to instantly counter any spell of 4th level or lower. With three reactions (only one per turn), and the chime of exile only working once per long rest, Vecna can easily counter the chime and force the characters to take a long rest (Which they can’t), and they can’t kill Vecna normally as he’ll just go back to the cave and finish the ritual when he reincarnates. So, in conclusion, Vecna eve of ruin is impossible to complete with less than 4 characters. What?!
Chime of Exile is a magic item, which means any spell cast from it is done so without components (unless explicitly stated)
Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item, often by expending charges from it. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell and caster level, doesn’t expend any of the user’s spell slots, and requires no components unless the item’s description says otherwise.
Dread Counterspell specifies that Vecna must be able to see target casting a spell, and per SAC if a spell has no components, you cannot perceive it being cast
If a sorcerer casts a spell with only verbal or somatic components using Subtle Spell, can an opponent use counterspell against it?
If a spell that’s altered by Subtle Spell has no material component, then it’s impossible for anyone to perceive the spell being cast. So, since you can’t see the casting, counterspell is of no use.
This means it's not possible for Vecna RAW to counterspell banishment from the item
Well, question answered! Glad I asked this before running the campaign. Thank you for your replies!
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Some Players Make brilliant characters. I kill those characters
The thing that some are missing though, is that if he is at more than 50 HP, the Chime fails. Unless the DM is using actual HP counts and informing the party, it is easy to make the use of the chime moot. Just finished the last fight, and my character used the charm when Vecna was "Near Death" on Foundry, but had more than 50 HP, and he made the DC on his save. Also, if he fails the save at less than 50 HP, he has legendary resistances and can choose to save instead. We fought him with 3 characters at level 17, and beat him, but only because the melee Artificer hit him for 97 damage when he was at 96 HP and used a Banishing Smite to contribute to part of the 97 damage. Also, to be honest, the Chime as the final reward for defeating Vecna is.......anti-climactic.
Dread Counterspell specifies that Vecna must be able to see target casting a spell, and per SAC if a spell has no components, you cannot perceive it being cast
If a sorcerer casts a spell with only verbal or somatic components using Subtle Spell, can an opponent use counterspell against it?
If a spell that’s altered by Subtle Spell has no material component, then it’s impossible for anyone to perceive the spell being cast. So, since you can’t see the casting, counterspell is of no use.
This means it's not possible for Vecna RAW to counterspell banishment from the item
If this is true, then Subtle Spell is a horribly misleading name, and it really should be called Uncounterable Spell. What I'm trying to say is the side effect is way, way more important than the effect of maybe being able to cast without triggering initiative. Or .. before initiative, maybe.
No complaints, mind. Just sayin'.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
If this is true, then Subtle Spell is a horribly misleading name, and it really should be called Uncounterable Spell. What I'm trying to say is the side effect is way, way more important than the effect of maybe being able to cast without triggering initiative. Or .. before initiative, maybe.
No complaints, mind. Just sayin'.
I think the fact that it's not counterspell-able is the effect, not the side effect.
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
I think the fact that it's not counterspell-able is the effect, not the side effect.
Yea, I .. that's also what I'm saying. But I'd tage any wager that pretty much everyone who ever uses it, uses it to cast 'stealthily'. Not to avoid getting countered.
I mean. Subtle spell alone essentially makes the sorcerer class the most powerful of the game. I mean ..... arguably =D
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
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The final fight with Vecna is actually much more difficult than it seems. According to RAW, the chime of exile can be used to cast banishment (A 4th level spell), but Vecna’s dread counterspell reaction allows him to instantly counter any spell of 4th level or lower. With three reactions (only one per turn), and the chime of exile only working once per long rest, Vecna can easily counter the chime and force the characters to take a long rest (Which they can’t), and they can’t kill Vecna normally as he’ll just go back to the cave and finish the ritual when he reincarnates. So, in conclusion, Vecna eve of ruin is impossible to complete with less than 4 characters. What?!
Some Players Make brilliant characters. I kill those characters
I haven't bought the adventure and I don't plan on buying it, but as you've described it a character with the Chime could Ready it as an action to be used in reaction to Vecna using Dread Counterspell. Since Vecna can only use one reaction on each turn, activating the Chime as a reaction to his reaction would circumvent his ability to counter it.
The text of the adventure pretty clearly does not offer Vecna a chance to use a reaction. It seems a bit arbitrary, but it is what it is.
You can use it to cast banishment as an action. Dread counterspell functions just like a 4th level counterspell, except Vecna can take 3 reactions in one round. Your theory would work, but the player’s most likely won’t know that Vecna can counter it, and if they do that and ready it as a reaction, first of all they’re really smart, and second, they must also be able to see Vecna to target him. If the reaction trigger is “Whenever Vecna takes a reaction, I use the chime of exile” it could be him using the teleport from attack reaction, which could allow him to hide behind a wall, and stop the reaction.
Some Players Make brilliant characters. I kill those characters
Rules as Written, provided that he has a reaction, he can counter it without having to make an ability check. I know it doesn’t make logical sense, but that is what the book says. Honestly I would probably throw my players a bone and not counter it.
Some Players Make brilliant characters. I kill those characters
That is not correct. The text of the adventure is clear; the players target Vecna with the chime, and then the conclusion of the adventure just happens. They do not have to actually cast Banishment from it, nor does the text allow any kind of reaction. What happens just happens. That is what the book says.
Reading over it again, yes you are correct, all the book says is that they have to target him with the chime after he’s at 50 hit points or fewer. The same isn’t true for Kas, though. With him the players MUST use the chime and he must be at less than 50hp. So the Vecna problem is solved, but if the player’s misjudge Kas’s hp, it will fail, and they’re only hope is to kill him.
Some Players Make brilliant characters. I kill those characters
Chime of Exile is a magic item, which means any spell cast from it is done so without components (unless explicitly stated)
Dread Counterspell specifies that Vecna must be able to see target casting a spell, and per SAC if a spell has no components, you cannot perceive it being cast
This means it's not possible for Vecna RAW to counterspell banishment from the item
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Well, question answered! Glad I asked this before running the campaign. Thank you for your replies!
Some Players Make brilliant characters. I kill those characters
The thing that some are missing though, is that if he is at more than 50 HP, the Chime fails. Unless the DM is using actual HP counts and informing the party, it is easy to make the use of the chime moot. Just finished the last fight, and my character used the charm when Vecna was "Near Death" on Foundry, but had more than 50 HP, and he made the DC on his save. Also, if he fails the save at less than 50 HP, he has legendary resistances and can choose to save instead. We fought him with 3 characters at level 17, and beat him, but only because the melee Artificer hit him for 97 damage when he was at 96 HP and used a Banishing Smite to contribute to part of the 97 damage. Also, to be honest, the Chime as the final reward for defeating Vecna is.......anti-climactic.
If this is true, then Subtle Spell is a horribly misleading name, and it really should be called Uncounterable Spell. What I'm trying to say is the side effect is way, way more important than the effect of maybe being able to cast without triggering initiative. Or .. before initiative, maybe.
No complaints, mind. Just sayin'.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I think the fact that it's not counterspell-able is the effect, not the side effect.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Yea, I .. that's also what I'm saying. But I'd tage any wager that pretty much everyone who ever uses it, uses it to cast 'stealthily'. Not to avoid getting countered.
I mean. Subtle spell alone essentially makes the sorcerer class the most powerful of the game. I mean ..... arguably =D
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.