At 3rd level, your tavernside scuffles have honed your ability to deal damage with just about anything that’s handy. You have proficiency with improvised weapons, and treat any improvised weapon you handle as if it has the finesse quality.
Additionally, whenever you hit with an improvised weapon, you may spend a bonus action to break it over your opponent. Doing this destroys the weapon, but deals the maximum number each of the weapon’s damage dice could deal to the target. Any additional dice added to the attack’s damage roll are not affected by this ability.
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Does this mean you hit, do damage, then spend a bonus action to do max damage on top of that? Or do you spend a bonus action to do max damage when you hit?
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Just a clarifying questions to start. We are talking about mostly 1d4 for the damage on improvised weapons right? I don't know the other scofflaw features because I don't own that material.
If you are using something similar to another weapon, the rules state "Often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such." Such weapons wouldn't qualify for features requiring use of an improvised weapons -- you are treating the thing as a club or whatever. So barring anything else special from the subclass, this feature is limited to 1d4 attacks.
If we are talking about d4 weapons, the difference isn't significant. But the feature says you choose when you hit and also says it deals max damage (it doesn't say it adds anything), so I'd read it that you get to maximize instead of rolling after you hit but before you roll damage.
I'd say even if an improvised weapon is considered "close enough" for something else (like a long, sturdy piece of wood qualifies as a quarterstaff or greatclub), it's still an improvised weapon as well. Still only makes the feature marginally useful, but I'd hope that's more a ribbon feature for a subclass than something that's meant to be bread and butter.
So you burn your action and your bonus action in order to do 4 damage instead of 1d4. Man, that sounds weak.
It does make it a finesse weapon, so a m/c with rogue could sneak attack with it and maximize all the rolls. I think.
And at 10th level, you get to add 2d6 when you do it. So basically 12 point, plus the base 4, plus ability modifier. So action and BA to do 20 or 21 damage. Though the average damage is like 11, so still not wonderful. But on a crit it would really shine.
I would read “Any additional dice added to the attack’s damage roll are not affected by this ability.” to include Sneak Attack and Smite. Those are additional dice.
I would read “Any additional dice added to the attack’s damage roll are not affected by this ability.” to include Sneak Attack and Smite. Those are additional dice.
It would still only hit for D4 damage and it's up the the GM's discretion whether it had any other properties (like reach) or indeed if such modifications mean that it even still counts as an improvised weapon anymore. And as was already pointed out multiple times, the ability only allows you to maximize the weapon's damage dice and no others. Sneak Attack, Smite, or the like are all unaffected by the ability.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I don’t think you’d be locked into a d4 if the DM is calling something a “close enough”, but yeah that kind of shenaniganery is the kind of thing a DM can- and should imo- put a Rule 0 foot down on, even if the player has stitched together a patchwork of features.
I don’t think you’d be locked into a d4 if the DM is calling something a “close enough”, but yeah that kind of shenaniganery is the kind of thing a DM can- and should imo- put a Rule 0 foot down on, even if the player has stitched together a patchwork of features.
I just think that once you're modifying a piece of gardening equipment to give it better combat ability (meaning a better damage die), it stops being an improvised weapon and starts being just a weapon.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I don’t think you’d be locked into a d4 if the DM is calling something a “close enough”, but yeah that kind of shenaniganery is the kind of thing a DM can- and should imo- put a Rule 0 foot down on, even if the player has stitched together a patchwork of features.
I just think that once you're modifying a piece of gardening equipment to give it better combat ability (meaning a better damage die), it stops being an improvised weapon and starts being just a weapon.
Right, that’s the point where the Rule 0 foot comes down, but I think there’s a space between the d4 “random junk” improvised weapons and that point.
Eh, the improvised weapon rules are vague, but I'd have a hard time ruling you can improvise any martial weapon, the best you can do on the fly is to approximate a simple weapon. Even if you make your sharp pointy stick too long to use 1-handed, it's still a spear.
I don’t think you’d be locked into a d4 if the DM is calling something a “close enough”, but yeah that kind of shenaniganery is the kind of thing a DM can- and should imo- put a Rule 0 foot down on, even if the player has stitched together a patchwork of features.
I just think that once you're modifying a piece of gardening equipment to give it better combat ability (meaning a better damage die), it stops being an improvised weapon and starts being just a weapon.
The problem is that the PHB does not define Improvised Weapons like this (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/equipment#ImprovisedWeapons). An "object that bears no resemblance to a weapon" is a subcategory of Improvised Weapons, but "often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such".
"Can" is the active word in that clause. That means that it's up to the GM's discretion.
So you could have a 10-foot pole that has been sharpened on one side that would be similar enough to a pike, that you now have a two-handed, heavy, reach, finesse weapon that qualifies for Sneak Attack, GWM, and PAM. I think this was just a very poorly thought out feature, because this Fighter is now a better Monk than a Monk.
Again, you're assuming that the GM just lets you make your improvised not-actually-a-pike-I'm-serious count as an improvised weapon (instead of just counting it as an actual weapon) while simultaneously letting it have all the properties of the actual weapon. Nothing in the Improvised Weapon section of the PHB says that you're allowed to do that, same for this ability. The problem isn't that this ability is too powerful, the problem is that someone is trying to rules-lawyer to give themselves an uber-weapon by claiming that a line asking for a GM's discretion is identical to saying the player can do it by default.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
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Brutal Brawler
At 3rd level, your tavernside scuffles have honed your ability to deal damage with just about anything that’s handy. You have proficiency with improvised weapons, and treat any improvised weapon you handle as if it has the finesse quality.
Additionally, whenever you hit with an improvised weapon, you may spend a bonus action to break it over your opponent. Doing this destroys the weapon, but deals the maximum number each of the weapon’s damage dice could deal to the target. Any additional dice added to the attack’s damage roll are not affected by this ability.
-------------
Does this mean you hit, do damage, then spend a bonus action to do max damage on top of that? Or do you spend a bonus action to do max damage when you hit?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Just a clarifying questions to start. We are talking about mostly 1d4 for the damage on improvised weapons right? I don't know the other scofflaw features because I don't own that material.
If you are using something similar to another weapon, the rules state "Often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such." Such weapons wouldn't qualify for features requiring use of an improvised weapons -- you are treating the thing as a club or whatever. So barring anything else special from the subclass, this feature is limited to 1d4 attacks.
If we are talking about d4 weapons, the difference isn't significant. But the feature says you choose when you hit and also says it deals max damage (it doesn't say it adds anything), so I'd read it that you get to maximize instead of rolling after you hit but before you roll damage.
So you burn your action and your bonus action in order to do 4 damage instead of 1d4. Man, that sounds weak.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
What's this even from?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
From Humblewood.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Ah.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I'd say even if an improvised weapon is considered "close enough" for something else (like a long, sturdy piece of wood qualifies as a quarterstaff or greatclub), it's still an improvised weapon as well. Still only makes the feature marginally useful, but I'd hope that's more a ribbon feature for a subclass than something that's meant to be bread and butter.
It does make it a finesse weapon, so a m/c with rogue could sneak attack with it and maximize all the rolls. I think.
And at 10th level, you get to add 2d6 when you do it. So basically 12 point, plus the base 4, plus ability modifier. So action and BA to do 20 or 21 damage. Though the average damage is like 11, so still not wonderful. But on a crit it would really shine.
But then you’re weaponless, of course.
I would read “Any additional dice added to the attack’s damage roll are not affected by this ability.” to include Sneak Attack and Smite. Those are additional dice.
Ahh. Good catch. I missed the “not.” Thank you.
It would still only hit for D4 damage and it's up the the GM's discretion whether it had any other properties (like reach) or indeed if such modifications mean that it even still counts as an improvised weapon anymore. And as was already pointed out multiple times, the ability only allows you to maximize the weapon's damage dice and no others. Sneak Attack, Smite, or the like are all unaffected by the ability.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I don’t think you’d be locked into a d4 if the DM is calling something a “close enough”, but yeah that kind of shenaniganery is the kind of thing a DM can- and should imo- put a Rule 0 foot down on, even if the player has stitched together a patchwork of features.
I just think that once you're modifying a piece of gardening equipment to give it better combat ability (meaning a better damage die), it stops being an improvised weapon and starts being just a weapon.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Right, that’s the point where the Rule 0 foot comes down, but I think there’s a space between the d4 “random junk” improvised weapons and that point.
Eh, the improvised weapon rules are vague, but I'd have a hard time ruling you can improvise any martial weapon, the best you can do on the fly is to approximate a simple weapon. Even if you make your sharp pointy stick too long to use 1-handed, it's still a spear.
"Can" is the active word in that clause. That means that it's up to the GM's discretion.
Again, you're assuming that the GM just lets you make your improvised not-actually-a-pike-I'm-serious count as an improvised weapon (instead of just counting it as an actual weapon) while simultaneously letting it have all the properties of the actual weapon. Nothing in the Improvised Weapon section of the PHB says that you're allowed to do that, same for this ability. The problem isn't that this ability is too powerful, the problem is that someone is trying to rules-lawyer to give themselves an uber-weapon by claiming that a line asking for a GM's discretion is identical to saying the player can do it by default.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.