So I thought of a combo and was wondering if there are problems with how I think it works. For the combo you need warcaster. You use dissonant whispers in melee range. On a failed save they flee which provokes opportunity. Use booming blade for opportunity. They would trake 3d6 psychic plus weapon damage if you hit plus booming blade thunder damage for moving.
I'm certain this works except for the booming blade damage since that triggers with "willing" movement. I think willing simply means they use their movement, action, or reaction to move. But even if dissonant whispers is not willing movement, they would trigger it their next turn or stay where they are essentially passing their turn.
Tough sell as Booming Blade doesn’t target “that creature” (the one the provoked the AoO); its range is “self/5ft”.
The creature doesn't need to be targeted for war caster. "When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack." Even though it targets yourself, it is still cast at the creature since it says you make a melee attack against it as part of the spell effect.
This doesn't work anyway since War Caster requires you to target the creature with the spell when the Opportunity Attack is triggered ("use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature"). Booming Blade is a spell that has "Range: Self (5-foot radius)" which means that the spell is being cast "at" the spellcaster and it creates a 5-foot radius AOE that is centered on the spellcaster. As per the spell description the spellcaster makes an attack against a creature that is located within this AOE. So, Booming Blade does not qualify.
While not official ruling, the Devs have stated before on X that the spell booming blade works with the War Caster feat.
@OregonRolledA20 :( still very sad that y'all nerfed booming blade to not work with war caster
@JeremyECrawford Booming blade works with War Caster.
@JeremyECrawford A note about D&D spells with a range of "Self (XYZ)": the parenthetical—which says "5-foot radius," "15-foot cone," or something else—means you are the spell's point of origin, but you aren't necessarily its target. You're creating an effect that originates in your space.
@DMdandanfieldng Related to this note and the new errata to spells like Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade - does the new range of "Self (5-foot radius)" on these spells mean they no longer work with War Caster?
@JeremyECrawford The Booming Blade spell continues to work with the War Caster feat. The spell targets one creature. The Green-Flame Blade spell continues to work with War Caster if you forgo targeting a second creature with the green fire.
The target of Dissonant Whispers must immediately use its reaction, if available, to move and therefore is not considered willing movement.
My only issue is that willing is not defined for this spell. It could mean that or what I said.
While not official ruling, the Devs have stated before on X that the movement resulting from Dissonant Whispers doesn't trigger booming blade 's damage.
@BobbyBarbarianWould you take damage from the second part of Booming Blade if you fail a save against Dissonant Whispers and move away?
@JeremyECrawford Booming blade hurts you if you move away willingly. Dissonant whispers forces you to move—doesn't trigger BL.
Yeah, unfortunately, this is one of those cases where JC is just wrong. I think that sometimes he is just answering questions on the fly without having the text in front of him so he makes mistakes like this all the time. He is actually wrong in 2 different ways here.
First, Booming Blade (at least after the most recent errata) does not target the creature with the spell. It targets a point in space at the spellcaster's location and creates an AOE outwards from that location. As part of the spell description the spellcaster also makes an attack with a weapon against a creature who is within the AOE -- that creature is targeted by that attack, but that's not really the target of the spell. JC sort of gets that correct in his first response above, but he then draws the wrong conclusion that this allows the spell to work with War Caster when it does not.
Second, he gets it especially wrong when he later clarifies that "the spell targets one creature" when it does not. These sort of blunders by him are really unfortunate.
This doesn't work anyway since War Caster requires you to target the creature with the spell when the Opportunity Attack is triggered ("use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature"). Booming Blade is a spell that has "Range: Self (5-foot radius)" which means that the spell is being cast "at" the spellcaster and it creates a 5-foot radius AOE that is centered on the spellcaster. As per the spell description the spellcaster makes an attack against a creature that is located within this AOE. So, Booming Blade does not qualify.
I would say the deviation from standard terms would constitute distinct meaning. Since it says "at the creature" instead of "targeting the creature," this suggests it doesn't need to target the creature. Also JC says otherwise as pointed out.
You can't cast 2 spells in the same round unless 1 is a Bonus Action and the other a Cantrip. Both spells in the OP are 1 action.
This only applies to bonus action spells. The rule under bonus action spell casting says
"A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."
Dissonant whispers uses an action and booming blade uses a reaction since it's an opportunity attack. That's within the rules. A fighter could also use action surge to cast two spells for their two actions if they want. This rule is no problem for this combo since the bonus action is not used to cast a spell.
I would say the deviation from standard terms would constitute distinct meaning. Since it says "at the creature" instead of "targeting the creature," this suggests it doesn't need to target the creature. Also JC says otherwise as pointed out.
This is actually even stronger evidence that booming blade does NOT work with War Caster. Regardless of what people might think about how targeting works, the booming blade spell is clearly not being cast at a creature. It is cast AT a point in space at the spellcaster's location. That's literally what Range (self) means. Anything outside of "self" is outside of the range for targeting and is definitely not where the spell is being cast "at".
TCoE and SCAG didn't create new spell Range verbiage, it existed since PHB, with spells such as Destructing Wave being Self (30 foot radius) or Antilife Shell being Self (10 foot radius) or Antimagic Field as Self (10 foot sphere) for exemple. Such spells create exception since spell with a range Self nornally affect only you but they clearly do not.
This is actually even stronger evidence that booming blade does NOT work with War Caster. Regardless of what people might think about how targeting works, the booming blade spell is clearly not being cast at a creature. It is cast AT a point in space at the spellcaster's location. That's literally what Range (self) means. Anything outside of "self" is outside of the range for targeting and is definitely not where the spell is being cast "at".
If the latter was true you wouldn't be able to target any creature within 15 feet of you with Burning Hands '' Range: Self (15-foot cone)''
Range: Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you.
I would say the deviation from standard terms would constitute distinct meaning. Since it says "at the creature" instead of "targeting the creature," this suggests it doesn't need to target the creature. Also JC says otherwise as pointed out.
This is actually even stronger evidence that booming blade does NOT work with War Caster. Regardless of what people might think about how targeting works, the booming blade spell is clearly not being cast at a creature. It is cast AT a point in space at the spellcaster's location. That's literally what Range (self) means. Anything outside of "self" is outside of the range for targeting and is definitely not where the spell is being cast "at".
Clearly no spell actually says it is cast "at" a creature. That has to be a description of the spell effect, not a legalese prescription. Also the range is self (5 foot radius) which means it can be cast at a creature within 5ft of yourself.
Also JC isn't just some guy. He's the lead on the team that wrote the rules you're trying to interpret.
Such spells create exception since spell with a range Self nornally affect only you but they clearly do not.
Right. "Range: Self" just means that the target of the spell cannot be outside of your own square. When the spell targets a creature then this would have to only target the spellcaster. If the spell targets a point in space as an origin point for an AOE (usually indicated in parentheses beside the range) then the target is the point in space at the spellcaster's location. Some AOEs include the point of origin by default and others do not. But the target of any AOE spell is the point of origin.
I think it's useful to think of the Booming Blade spell as a spell that creates an AOE. That AOE has the "potential" to interact with a creature located within it if certain conditions are met. That condition is that the creature is immediately struck by the particular weapon that was used as a spell component for the spell. So, one creature within the AOE may or may not be affected and other creatures within the AOE definitely will not be affected. It's pretty unique for an AOE to work in this particular way, but there are other spells with "conditional" AOE effects perhaps as simple as specifying which creatures are affected or specifying which creatures are immune and so on.
Right. "Range: Self" just means that the target of the spell cannot be outside of your own square. When the spell targets a creature then this would have to only target the spellcaster. If the spell targets a point in space as an origin point for an AOE (usually indicated in parentheses beside the range) then the target is the point in space at the spellcaster's location. Some AOEs include the point of origin by default and others do not. But the target of any AOE spell is the point of origin.
There are spells with a Range of Self, especially AOE radius, in which the caster is the origin of the spell's effect.
Range: Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you.
Areas of Effect: Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.
Also the range is self (5 foot radius) which means it can be cast at a creature within 5ft of yourself.
This is 100% NOT what this notation means at all. Not even a little bit. It's pretty important not to make this mistake.
The 5 foot radius is not the range. It is the size and shape of the area of effect. The range is self. This means that the area of effect originates at the spellcaster. Such spells can NOT be cast at a creature within 5 feet of yourself. This is actually extremely important for proper RAW gameplay.
Plaguescarred, the Burning Hands spell functions correctly and is written correctly. That spell targets a point in space at the spellcaster's location and creates a 15-foot cone that extends outward from the origin. The spell description then says "Each creature in a 15-foot cone must make a Dexteritysaving throw." Those creatures were not targeted. The target of the spell is the origin point for the cone. Those creatures that make the saving throw are being affected by the area of effect.
Of course, we've had this debate before and you can definitely find a half-dozen or so spells and other specific rules sprinkled here and there throughout the game where the word "target" is used erroneously by the author and therefore creates an inconsistency with the game design given by the general rules from Chapter 10 and other places. But in general, from Chapter 10, a spell can target one or more creatures and/or objects or it can target an origin point in space for an AOE. In general, creatures within an AOE are affected, not targeted.
This is 100% NOT what this notation means at all. Not even a little bit. It's pretty important not to make this mistake.
The 5 foot radius is not the range. It is the size and shape of the area of effect. The range is self. This means that the area of effect originates at the spellcaster. Such spells can NOT be cast at a creature within 5 feet of yourself. This is actually extremely important for proper RAW gameplay.
Plaguescarred, the Burning Hands spell functions correctly and is written correctly. That spell targets a point in space at the spellcaster's location and creates a 15-foot cone that extends outward from the origin. The spell description then says "Each creature in a 15-foot cone must make a Dexteritysaving throw." Those creatures were not targeted. The target of the spell is the origin point for the cone. Those creatures that make the saving throw are being affected by the area of effect.
The range of booming blade ' is''Range: Self (5-foot radius)''
Creatures affected by a spell are the target of it.
Target: A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic. A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect (described below).
Saving Throws: Many spells specify that a target can make a saving throw to avoid some or all of a spell's effects. The spell specifies the ability that the target uses for the save and what happens on a success or failure.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So I thought of a combo and was wondering if there are problems with how I think it works. For the combo you need warcaster. You use dissonant whispers in melee range. On a failed save they flee which provokes opportunity. Use booming blade for opportunity. They would trake 3d6 psychic plus weapon damage if you hit plus booming blade thunder damage for moving.
I'm certain this works except for the booming blade damage since that triggers with "willing" movement. I think willing simply means they use their movement, action, or reaction to move. But even if dissonant whispers is not willing movement, they would trigger it their next turn or stay where they are essentially passing their turn.
The target of Dissonant Whispers must immediately use its reaction, if available, to move and therefore is not considered willing movement.
Tough sell as Booming Blade doesn’t target “that creature” (the one the provoked the AoO); its range is “self/5ft”.
The creature doesn't need to be targeted for war caster. "When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack." Even though it targets yourself, it is still cast at the creature since it says you make a melee attack against it as part of the spell effect.
My only issue is that willing is not defined for this spell. It could mean that or what I said.
This doesn't work anyway since War Caster requires you to target the creature with the spell when the Opportunity Attack is triggered ("use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature"). Booming Blade is a spell that has "Range: Self (5-foot radius)" which means that the spell is being cast "at" the spellcaster and it creates a 5-foot radius AOE that is centered on the spellcaster. As per the spell description the spellcaster makes an attack against a creature that is located within this AOE. So, Booming Blade does not qualify.
You can't cast 2 spells in the same round unless 1 is a Bonus Action and the other a Cantrip. Both spells in the OP are 1 action.
On your turn you can cast a spell as an action and another as a reaction just fine.
The spellcasting limit is when a bonus action spell is used which isn't the case here.
While not official ruling, the Devs have stated before on X that the spell booming blade works with the War Caster feat.
While not official ruling, the Devs have stated before on X that the movement resulting from Dissonant Whispers doesn't trigger booming blade 's damage.
Yeah, unfortunately, this is one of those cases where JC is just wrong. I think that sometimes he is just answering questions on the fly without having the text in front of him so he makes mistakes like this all the time. He is actually wrong in 2 different ways here.
First, Booming Blade (at least after the most recent errata) does not target the creature with the spell. It targets a point in space at the spellcaster's location and creates an AOE outwards from that location. As part of the spell description the spellcaster also makes an attack with a weapon against a creature who is within the AOE -- that creature is targeted by that attack, but that's not really the target of the spell. JC sort of gets that correct in his first response above, but he then draws the wrong conclusion that this allows the spell to work with War Caster when it does not.
Second, he gets it especially wrong when he later clarifies that "the spell targets one creature" when it does not. These sort of blunders by him are really unfortunate.
I would say the deviation from standard terms would constitute distinct meaning. Since it says "at the creature" instead of "targeting the creature," this suggests it doesn't need to target the creature. Also JC says otherwise as pointed out.
This only applies to bonus action spells. The rule under bonus action spell casting says
"A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."
Dissonant whispers uses an action and booming blade uses a reaction since it's an opportunity attack. That's within the rules. A fighter could also use action surge to cast two spells for their two actions if they want. This rule is no problem for this combo since the bonus action is not used to cast a spell.
This is actually even stronger evidence that booming blade does NOT work with War Caster. Regardless of what people might think about how targeting works, the booming blade spell is clearly not being cast at a creature. It is cast AT a point in space at the spellcaster's location. That's literally what Range (self) means. Anything outside of "self" is outside of the range for targeting and is definitely not where the spell is being cast "at".
For those interested, the devs have discussed the range and target clarification in podcast Dragon Talk Sage Advice: Targeting Revisited;
https://youtu.be/xUOaQ_XY7wE
TCoE and SCAG didn't create new spell Range verbiage, it existed since PHB, with spells such as Destructing Wave being Self (30 foot radius) or Antilife Shell being Self (10 foot radius) or Antimagic Field as Self (10 foot sphere) for exemple. Such spells create exception since spell with a range Self nornally affect only you but they clearly do not.
If the latter was true you wouldn't be able to target any creature within 15 feet of you with Burning Hands '' Range: Self (15-foot cone)''
Clearly no spell actually says it is cast "at" a creature. That has to be a description of the spell effect, not a legalese prescription. Also the range is self (5 foot radius) which means it can be cast at a creature within 5ft of yourself.
Also JC isn't just some guy. He's the lead on the team that wrote the rules you're trying to interpret.
Right. "Range: Self" just means that the target of the spell cannot be outside of your own square. When the spell targets a creature then this would have to only target the spellcaster. If the spell targets a point in space as an origin point for an AOE (usually indicated in parentheses beside the range) then the target is the point in space at the spellcaster's location. Some AOEs include the point of origin by default and others do not. But the target of any AOE spell is the point of origin.
I think it's useful to think of the Booming Blade spell as a spell that creates an AOE. That AOE has the "potential" to interact with a creature located within it if certain conditions are met. That condition is that the creature is immediately struck by the particular weapon that was used as a spell component for the spell. So, one creature within the AOE may or may not be affected and other creatures within the AOE definitely will not be affected. It's pretty unique for an AOE to work in this particular way, but there are other spells with "conditional" AOE effects perhaps as simple as specifying which creatures are affected or specifying which creatures are immune and so on.
There are spells with a Range of Self, especially AOE radius, in which the caster is the origin of the spell's effect.
This is 100% NOT what this notation means at all. Not even a little bit. It's pretty important not to make this mistake.
The 5 foot radius is not the range. It is the size and shape of the area of effect. The range is self. This means that the area of effect originates at the spellcaster. Such spells can NOT be cast at a creature within 5 feet of yourself. This is actually extremely important for proper RAW gameplay.
Plaguescarred, the Burning Hands spell functions correctly and is written correctly. That spell targets a point in space at the spellcaster's location and creates a 15-foot cone that extends outward from the origin. The spell description then says "Each creature in a 15-foot cone must make a Dexterity saving throw." Those creatures were not targeted. The target of the spell is the origin point for the cone. Those creatures that make the saving throw are being affected by the area of effect.
Of course, we've had this debate before and you can definitely find a half-dozen or so spells and other specific rules sprinkled here and there throughout the game where the word "target" is used erroneously by the author and therefore creates an inconsistency with the game design given by the general rules from Chapter 10 and other places. But in general, from Chapter 10, a spell can target one or more creatures and/or objects or it can target an origin point in space for an AOE. In general, creatures within an AOE are affected, not targeted.
The range of booming blade ' is''Range: Self (5-foot radius)''
Creatures affected by a spell are the target of it.