In many cases, the concept of Passive Perception as it relates to the Hide mechanics has been made obsolete by the update to the core rules in 2024 simply because a Passive Perception score below 15 cannot find a successfully hidden creature. Of the 334 monster stat blocks that have been made available in the free / basic rules of 2024, only approximately 99 of those have a Passive Perception score of at least 15. Of those, many of these are in that 15 - 17 range which will only rarely be high enough to matter. But note that every single stat block does have a value listed for Passive Perception -- it's clearly meant to be a core mechanic.
Remember, in order to transition from your location being "obvious" to "not obvious", you need to successfully Hide with a Stealth value of at least 15 which sets the DC for future Perception checks. Any time that your location is "obvious", another creature can successfully notice you without making any check -- essentially, the DC is 0. Or, in other words, the Perception effort will be an auto-success, and a DM only asks for a check in situations where the outcome is uncertain -- they do not ask for one in situations where the outcome is guaranteed to be an auto-success.
Next, the Search action is defined as attempting "to discern something that isn’t obvious". Similarly, the Perception skill is defined as "Using a combination of senses, notice something that’s easy to miss". A.k.a., something that isn't obvious. So, once you successfully transition into a game state where your location is not obvious by successfully hiding, we now have a mechanic which creates a sliding scale that determines exactly "how not obvious" your location actually has become. If your Stealth value is particularly high, then your location is quite strongly not obvious. If your Stealth value is sort of middling, then your location is just sort of not obvious.
Depending on just how strong another creature's Passive Perception score is, that creature might be able to automatically notice some things that are quite strongly not obvious. Or, they might have a middling Passive Perception score which is only good enough to be able to automatically notice some things that are just sort of not obvious. The majority of creatures have Passive Perception scores that are simply not good enough to ever find any creature who's location isn't obvious (any Passive Perception score below 15).
This mechanic ties in with the general concept that we only ask for a check when the outcome is uncertain. Passive Perception rules also indicate that this ability to automatically notice certain things occurs without expending action economy:
whether your character notices something without asking you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check; the DM uses your Passive Perception instead. Passive Perception is a score that reflects a general awareness of your surroundings when you’re not actively looking for something.
"Actively looking" implies making an effort or an attempt which would require an action (the Search action). In this case, the benefit is conferred passively without any action required.
And how many monsters and creatures in both the basic rules and the MM have a passive perception of 10 or higher?
With only 29.64% of just the basic rules monsters having the the ability to meet or beat an active Stealth roll that has to at worst roll a 15 to even attempt to hide, why is the DC so high?
What if the static DC was 10 what percentage of creatures/monsters would be capable of passively detecting a creature passively and/or actively tying to hide?
Avg passive stealth is 8+prof(or expertise)+abilityMod =?
Avg active stealth is Avg( 1d20 = ~10.5+-.5) + skillMod( prof(or expertise)+abilityMod =?)
If we make the avg passive stealth roll an 11 in both cases, with avg dex mod avg of 0, then how many passive perceptions do we have to beat to prevent having to roll?
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
"Passive Stealth" doesn't exist. Passive tests are perception tests of one sort or another that primarily exist to allow characters to either test against a DC without their knowledge or without taking an action. Using "Passive Stealth" would be roughly akin to making a "Passive Attack" where you just take a 10 on the attack instead of spending an Action.
Also, those Passive Perception checks can be done at Advantage or Disadvantage (which shifts the roll by 5 in one direction or another).
And how many monsters and creatures in both the basic rules and the MM have a passive perception of 10 or higher?
With only 29.64% of just the basic rules monsters having the the ability to meet or beat an active Stealth roll that has to at worst roll a 15 to even attempt to hide, why is the DC so high?
What if the static DC was 10 what percentage of creatures/monsters would be capable of passively detecting a creature passively and/or actively tying to hide?
Avg passive stealth is 8+prof(or expertise)+abilityMod =?
Avg active stealth is Avg( 1d20 = ~10.5+-.5) + skillMod( prof(or expertise)+abilityMod =?)
If we make the avg passive stealth roll an 11 in both cases, with avg dex mod avg of 0, then how many passive perceptions do we have to beat to prevent having to roll?
The rules allow to give +5 or -5 for advantage/disadvantage on Passive Perception, which may or may not help a creature notice someone. Also, both players and the DM can call for Perception checks whenever a situation merits it per the DMG:
Perception
As the DM, you’re the interface between your players and the world of the game. You tell them what their characters perceive, so it’s important to make sure you’re telling them important information about their surroundings. The Perception skill and Wisdom checks made using it are key tools for you. This section offers guidance to help you use the Perception rules in the Player’s Handbook.
When to Call for a Check
An important time to call for a Wisdom (Perception) check is when another creature is using the Stealth skill to hide. Noticing a hidden creature is never trivially easy or automatically impossible, so characters can always try Wisdom (Perception) checks to do so.
Using Passive Perception. Sometimes, asking players to make Wisdom (Perception) checks for their characters tips them off that there’s something they should be searching for, giving them a clue you’d rather they didn’t have. In those circumstances, use characters’ Passive Perception scores instead.
If I were the DM, if someone is hiding from an enemy and they come out into the open to try to attack the creature, I would roll a Perception check to see if the creature notices the player instead of using passive perception, unless I don't want the player to know if they were noticed. In other words, "Let the Dice Gods decide". This is what I believe can maintain the spirit of the stealthy Rogue instead of automatically shutting down this gameplay.
And how many monsters and creatures in both the basic rules and the MM have a passive perception of 10 or higher?
With only 29.64% of just the basic rules monsters having the the ability to meet or beat an active Stealth roll that has to at worst roll a 15 to even attempt to hide, why is the DC so high?
What if the static DC was 10 what percentage of creatures/monsters would be capable of passively detecting a creature passively and/or actively tying to hide?
Avg passive stealth is 8+prof(or expertise)+abilityMod =?
Avg active stealth is Avg( 1d20 = ~10.5+-.5) + skillMod( prof(or expertise)+abilityMod =?)
If we make the avg passive stealth roll an 11 in both cases, with avg dex mod avg of 0, then how many passive perceptions do we have to beat to prevent having to roll?
The rules allow to give +5 or -5 for advantage/disadvantage on Passive Perception, which may or may not help a creature notice someone. Also, both players and the DM can call for Perception checks whenever a situation merits it per the DMG:
Perception
As the DM, you’re the interface between your players and the world of the game. You tell them what their characters perceive, so it’s important to make sure you’re telling them important information about their surroundings. The Perception skill and Wisdom checks made using it are key tools for you. This section offers guidance to help you use the Perception rules in the Player’s Handbook.
When to Call for a Check
An important time to call for a Wisdom (Perception) check is when another creature is using the Stealth skill to hide. Noticing a hidden creature is never trivially easy or automatically impossible, so characters can always try Wisdom (Perception) checks to do so.
Using Passive Perception. Sometimes, asking players to make Wisdom (Perception) checks for their characters tips them off that there’s something they should be searching for, giving them a clue you’d rather they didn’t have. In those circumstances, use characters’ Passive Perception scores instead.
If I were the DM, if someone is hiding from an enemy and they come out into the open to try to attack the creature, I would roll a Perception check to see if the creature notices the player instead of using passive perception, unless I don't want the player to know if they were noticed. In other words, "Let the Dice Gods decide". This is what I believe can maintain the spirit of the stealthy Rogue instead of automatically shutting down this gameplay.
players cant, by the rules, directly call for checks other than taking a specific action (like search or influence). They say what they want to do narratively, and the DM determines if there is a check and what it requires.
"
You decide when a player makes a [D20 Test] based on what the character is trying to do. Players shouldn’t just roll ability checks without context; they should tell you what their characters are trying to achieve, and make ability checks only if you ask them to."
passive checks are all DM determination, including perception
now informally, some players speak in rules so may just say can i make a perception check, but really, its DM that calls for checks.
In many cases, the concept of Passive Perception as it relates to the Hide mechanics has been made obsolete by the update to the core rules in 2024 simply because a Passive Perception score below 15 cannot find a successfully hidden creature. Of the 334 monster stat blocks that have been made available in the free / basic rules of 2024, only approximately 99 of those have a Passive Perception score of at least 15. Of those, many of these are in that 15 - 17 range which will only rarely be high enough to matter. But note that every single stat block does have a value listed for Passive Perception -- it's clearly meant to be a core mechanic.
Remember, in order to transition from your location being "obvious" to "not obvious", you need to successfully Hide with a Stealth value of at least 15 which sets the DC for future Perception checks. Any time that your location is "obvious", another creature can successfully notice you without making any check -- essentially, the DC is 0. Or, in other words, the Perception effort will be an auto-success, and a DM only asks for a check in situations where the outcome is uncertain -- they do not ask for one in situations where the outcome is guaranteed to be an auto-success.
Next, the Search action is defined as attempting "to discern something that isn’t obvious". Similarly, the Perception skill is defined as "Using a combination of senses, notice something that’s easy to miss". A.k.a., something that isn't obvious. So, once you successfully transition into a game state where your location is not obvious by successfully hiding, we now have a mechanic which creates a sliding scale that determines exactly "how not obvious" your location actually has become. If your Stealth value is particularly high, then your location is quite strongly not obvious. If your Stealth value is sort of middling, then your location is just sort of not obvious.
Depending on just how strong another creature's Passive Perception score is, that creature might be able to automatically notice some things that are quite strongly not obvious. Or, they might have a middling Passive Perception score which is only good enough to be able to automatically notice some things that are just sort of not obvious. The majority of creatures have Passive Perception scores that are simply not good enough to ever find any creature who's location isn't obvious (any Passive Perception score below 15).
This mechanic ties in with the general concept that we only ask for a check when the outcome is uncertain. Passive Perception rules also indicate that this ability to automatically notice certain things occurs without expending action economy:
whether your character notices something without asking you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check; the DM uses your Passive Perception instead. Passive Perception is a score that reflects a general awareness of your surroundings when you’re not actively looking for something.
"Actively looking" implies making an effort or an attempt which would require an action (the Search action). In this case, the benefit is conferred passively without any action required.
there is a big difference between the facts, and logical deduction of facts, and what one thinks the intent is. By the facts, DMs determine when to use passive perception for a number of reasons, but it is not required by perception or stealth rules, and that was a concious choice in 2024. And thats because it was always meant to be a DM option, the 2014 rules said it speciically in the entry on passive checks.
Passive checks are never required, and always dm option, Passive perceptiom is by far the most common one, but its not required at all. The DM decides when and how to roll DC20 tests, unless the rules say they have to. Nowhere in the hide rules does it state enemies all must make a perceptiom check just by the virtue of someone attempting to, or being hidden. They leave that up to DM discretion. They do however reccomend it.
Even if you as a dm think that creatures should always get a perception check when anything is hidden, passive is still just an option, as you (the DM) can call for an actual roll instead. Passive checks are in the realm of DMs many options for resolving outcomes, including narrative answer, group check, passive check, Dc 20 versus a DC set by another creatures roll, Saves, advantage and disadvantage, they never required.
Also as many others have said, advantage and disadvantage matter.
situationally Dm can apply disadvantage to a stealth roll, and advantage to a passive perception or vice versa. One of the situations where they might give a passive bonus to perception is if it would be hard not to notice the hiding person, like if they are out in the open. They specifically remind DMs of this in the passive perception rules, even though its a standard rule. Likely because passive perception will commonly involve advantage or disadvantage.
As I see it ether you have passive skill abilities, like passive perception or passive stealth, passive Survival and other such mechanics or you don’t have any passive abilities not even passive perception.
Facing was always a thing in D&D and normally people use tokens or minis that might normally have a means if showing which way a creature is looking, but if tokens are used that don’t have any means of showing in what direction a creature is facing then how can anyone tell if they are sneaking up behind the target?
And using passive skills and checks can help smooth out gameplay by allowing rolling to those who love tossing dice left and right while minimizing rolling for those who find rolling tedious.
As it currently is with the rules, a lot of the “is a hidden creature seen” is placed on the DM to determine, then saying that as soon as a hidden creature does anything it automatically loses its hidden state regardless if the creature was ever actually seen is broken.
but if both player and DM understand that the invisibility granted by hiding is only temporary unless a spell is involved to continuously make the creature invisible and is a game state that is independent to every creature involved something has to be done to protect and prevent ether side from abusing the mechanics.
Passive skill mechanics help the best of both worlds because a stealth creature with say +7 stealth and a passive total of 15 could easily beat a 15 without trying to be extra stealthy.
but that is if the creature commits fully to gaining expertise in the particular skill, what happens to the non extreme creatures that might only normally have just a 50/50 chance of remaining hidden? Do they get punished for not being as skilled in hiding like only a small number are?
And again what number of creatures throughout the entire game have passive perception skills that can beat a stealth score of 11 or higher?
With a passive stealth skill of 0 and +5 from static advantage, a non stealth heavy creature would have no problem hiding and making the DC, and anyone with a negative skill ability or disadvantage would have to roll to offset the negative impact.
A lot of useful mechanics have been stripped because people think if it isn’t explained in detail and if it isn’t explicitly stated, then it’s just homebrew and not actual mechanics that do exist but not all in one place. But we all know the rules and mechanics of the game are sprinkled throughout the entirety of all the books and rules, and no one rule can cover every single aspect of the infinite possibilities that could exist.
Passive skill checks can cover a good bit of the heavy lifting, and active checks can help refine and reduce the possibilities to a more manageable level both for players and DMs.
Trying to minimize hiding and being hidden in the same way they minimized being surprised is not the way to fix it, it’s impossible.
If a static DC must be used, 15 is far too aggressive and a value if 11-13 is not that high as to discourage usage attempts.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
players cant, by the rules, directly call for checks other than taking a specific action (like search or influence). They say what they want to do narratively, and the DM determines if there is a check and what it requires.
"
You decide when a player makes a [D20 Test] based on what the character is trying to do. Players shouldn’t just roll ability checks without context; they should tell you what their characters are trying to achieve, and make ability checks only if you ask them to."
passive checks are all DM determination, including perception
now informally, some players speak in rules so may just say can i make a perception check, but really, its DM that calls for checks.
I completely agree with all of this. This is an excellent way to run a game and it's what is recommended by the rules.
By the facts, DMs determine when to use passive perception for a number of reasons, but it is not required by perception or stealth rules, and that was a concious choice in 2024. And thats because it was always meant to be a DM option, the 2014 rules said it speciically in the entry on passive checks.
Passive checks are never required, and always dm option, Passive perceptiom is by far the most common one, but its not required at all. The DM decides when and how to roll DC20 tests, unless the rules say they have to. Nowhere in the hide rules does it state enemies all must make a perceptiom check just by the virtue of someone attempting to, or being hidden. They leave that up to DM discretion. They do however reccomend it.
Even if you as a dm think that creatures should always get a perception check when anything is hidden, passive is still just an option, as you (the DM) can call for an actual roll instead. Passive checks are in the realm of DMs many options for resolving outcomes, including narrative answer, group check, passive check, Dc 20 versus a DC set by another creatures roll, Saves, advantage and disadvantage, they never required.
This, however, is going a bit too far in my opinion. Passive Perception in particular is clearly meant to be a core mechanic of the game.
Every single monster stat block goes out of its way to use up some ink and some line count to explicitly list a value for Passive Perception for the monster. In 99+% of all game situations, this is obviously intended to interface with PC attempts at stealth -- whether a PC is attempting to Hide in combat or they are attempting some sort of stealth outside of combat. There's hardly ever any other reason for an NPC to ever use this stat during a game.
As for the PC side of things, the Passive Perception score is included on the official character sheets which track the stats for the character. In the chapter which describes "Character Creation" / "Creating a Character", part of the procedure for creating a character explicitly explains how to calculate and record the Passive Perception score for your character:
Character Creation --> Creating a Character --> Create Your Character --> Step 5: Fill In Details --> Fill In Numbers:
Note these numbers on your character sheet.
. . .
Passive Perception. Sometimes your DM will determine whether your character notices something without asking you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check; the DM uses your Passive Perception instead. Passive Perception is a score that reflects a general awareness of your surroundings when you’re not actively looking for something. Use this formula to determine your Passive Perception score:
Include all modifiers that apply to your Wisdom (Perception) checks.
This is a mechanic that is meant to be used by the DM to the point that it appears on every monster stat block and every character sheet.
In this respect, it's sort of similar to the DM tool of applying advantage or disadvantage in situations that the DM deems are appropriate. Yes, it's technically optional and it's up to the DM to decide when the situation is appropriate, but it's still a core mechanic that is meant to be used during normal gameplay.
Lastly, note that the Hide action rules specifically do not mention anything about taking the Search action. Instead, they phrase the mechanic like this:
Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
In my opinion, the intention is that using an action to take the Search action is only one subset of the possible ways that a creature can "find" another creature with his Perception skill. By not requiring the Search action, the text allows a creature to be found by an active Wisdom (Perception) check, or by a Passive Perception "check". Even though it might be possible to nitpick and claim that the Passive Perception score is not technically a "check", the wording in the Glossary for Passive Perception makes it pretty clear that it can be used in place of the term "Wisdom (Perception) check" any place in the rules where such a check might apply:
The DM uses this score when determining whether a creature notices something without consciously making a Wisdom (Perception) check.
. . .
For example, a level 1 character with a Wisdom of 15 and proficiency in Perception has a Passive Perception of 14 (10 + 2 + 2). If that character has Advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks, the score becomes 19.
The most straightforward way to incorporate Passive Perception (in combat, at least) with the 2024 rules is when the hidden person is moving. Each move action, compare their Stealth check to the Passive Perception of any nearby enemies, to see if they are found. (And, as I've mentioned several times in this thread, I'd just reuse the Hide's Stealth check for the first move action, which streamlines things.)
Nominally, this is for hearing them, but it could also be for seeing movement in the corner of your eyes or whatever.
Regardless, this is generally a DM-only mechanic, because the (arguable) primary purpose of Passive Perception scores is when the DM doesn't want to alert people that something is "missable." And when NPCs are the ones getting snuck past, the PC doesn't know their score, anyway.
players cant, by the rules, directly call for checks other than taking a specific action (like search or influence). They say what they want to do narratively, and the DM determines if there is a check and what it requires.
"
You decide when a player makes a [D20 Test] based on what the character is trying to do. Players shouldn’t just roll ability checks without context; they should tell you what their characters are trying to achieve, and make ability checks only if you ask them to."
passive checks are all DM determination, including perception
now informally, some players speak in rules so may just say can i make a perception check, but really, its DM that calls for checks.
I completely agree with all of this. This is an excellent way to run a game and it's what is recommended by the rules.
By the facts, DMs determine when to use passive perception for a number of reasons, but it is not required by perception or stealth rules, and that was a concious choice in 2024. And thats because it was always meant to be a DM option, the 2014 rules said it speciically in the entry on passive checks.
Passive checks are never required, and always dm option, Passive perceptiom is by far the most common one, but its not required at all. The DM decides when and how to roll DC20 tests, unless the rules say they have to. Nowhere in the hide rules does it state enemies all must make a perceptiom check just by the virtue of someone attempting to, or being hidden. They leave that up to DM discretion. They do however reccomend it.
Even if you as a dm think that creatures should always get a perception check when anything is hidden, passive is still just an option, as you (the DM) can call for an actual roll instead. Passive checks are in the realm of DMs many options for resolving outcomes, including narrative answer, group check, passive check, Dc 20 versus a DC set by another creatures roll, Saves, advantage and disadvantage, they never required.
This, however, is going a bit too far in my opinion. Passive Perception in particular is clearly meant to be a core mechanic of the game.
Every single monster stat block goes out of its way to use up some ink and some line count to explicitly list a value for Passive Perception for the monster. In 99+% of all game situations, this is obviously intended to interface with PC attempts at stealth -- whether a PC is attempting to Hide in combat or they are attempting some sort of stealth outside of combat. There's hardly ever any other reason for an NPC to ever use this stat during a game.
As for the PC side of things, the Passive Perception score is included on the official character sheets which track the stats for the character. In the chapter which describes "Character Creation" / "Creating a Character", part of the procedure for creating a character explicitly explains how to calculate and record the Passive Perception score for your character:
Character Creation --> Creating a Character --> Create Your Character --> Step 5: Fill In Details --> Fill In Numbers:
Note these numbers on your character sheet.
. . .
Passive Perception. Sometimes your DM will determine whether your character notices something without asking you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check; the DM uses your Passive Perception instead. Passive Perception is a score that reflects a general awareness of your surroundings when you’re not actively looking for something. Use this formula to determine your Passive Perception score:
Include all modifiers that apply to your Wisdom (Perception) checks.
This is a mechanic that is meant to be used by the DM to the point that it appears on every monster stat block and every character sheet.
In this respect, it's sort of similar to the DM tool of applying advantage or disadvantage in situations that the DM deems are appropriate. Yes, it's technically optional and it's up to the DM to decide when the situation is appropriate, but it's still a core mechanic that is meant to be used during normal gameplay.
Lastly, note that the Hide action rules specifically do not mention anything about taking the Search action. Instead, they phrase the mechanic like this:
Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
In my opinion, the intention is that using an action to take the Search action is only one subset of the possible ways that a creature can "find" another creature with his Perception skill. By not requiring the Search action, the text allows a creature to be found by an active Wisdom (Perception) check, or by a Passive Perception "check". Even though it might be possible to nitpick and claim that the Passive Perception score is not technically a "check", the wording in the Glossary for Passive Perception makes it pretty clear that it can be used in place of the term "Wisdom (Perception) check" any place in the rules where such a check might apply:
The DM uses this score when determining whether a creature notices something without consciously making a Wisdom (Perception) check.
. . .
For example, a level 1 character with a Wisdom of 15 and proficiency in Perception has a Passive Perception of 14 (10 + 2 + 2). If that character has Advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks, the score becomes 19.
just because something is on a stat block or sheet doesnt mean the DM must use them, many things on a stat block rarely come up. Many creatures have tool proficiencies they never use, every monster has their hit dice, and their random HP formula on the stat block, i have extremely rarely used either. Monster stat blocks are supposed to house whatever information the DM might need to run the monster. Player charachter sheets are meant to house everything about the charachter, even if its super rare.
I do believe that they think passive perception is a useful tool for running games, and is commonly used, However, they never commited to passive perception as something the dm always uses, because doing so drastically alters the dice/win ratio. If you are always employing passive perception, especially uniformly with PC and monsters, you basically make perception the only skill that has a minimum roll.
IE, for everything else a +7 means the outcomes are anywhere from 8 -27 but if you uniformly apply passive perception, the range of possibilities becomes 17-27 what this means is perception becomes an unfairly stable stat that benefits way more greatly from static bonuses. (this is because by doing nothing i am always taking a 10). it also makes players more likely not to actively use perception, especially in initiative, because there is a 50% chance it wont be better than a passive.
Now for many people, thats worth it because it speeds up the game, But they wanted to keep the DMs options open, passive checks do warp the math of the game and gameplay, and they wanted it to be that the dm isnt required to use it. Just the fact the player can't depend on the idea that the DM always uses passive perception or stats can introduce uncertainty, where it was designed to be. Instead of rolling a 17, and being sure that only a special creature will find you, there is always a possibility someone will roll high. This allows the dm's random rolls to create tension.
keep in mind the hide rules and much of the phb represent the rules for all creatures, not the rules for just monsters.
i dont think it was an accident at all, that they never told players or DMs to always use passive perception, and removed it from rules.
To be 100% clear i think that the designers intended players to commonly use passive perception some times for speed, some times for keep people unaware, but i think they expect there will be many times, especially high stakes or tense times where they will rely on rolls.
IE
a slim percentage of DMs will never or rarely use passive perception
most DMs will use it commonly, but also not use it situationally, there is no guarantee your passive perception is being employed.
a slim percentage will use it all the time, rarely making exceptions
i dont think they expect it to baseline always on.
I agree with most of what you said except the idea that passive check undermine active rolls.
Keep in mind that a passive check, while more stable, has much less influence than an active one.
Succeeding a passive perception check is not supposed to reveal as much information as taking the Search action.
To come back to stealth, I think it's clear that you're supposed to use passive perception checks for enemies after the PCs hide. If you're hidden and approach enemies, they have no reason to take the Search action, unless they're an especially overzealous guard who does so every minute. So the only way they would even have a chance to detect you is by making a passive check when you're in range of one of their senses.
Maybe a better way to run it would be if their Passive Perception beats your Stealth roll, then they noticed something. A guard would go investigate (Search, not roll an investigation check), a docile deer might go back to munching grass, a hungry Owlbear might start scanning to prevent anything from stealing its kill, etc..
A lot of these issues come to the Invisible condition that has the line, "can somehow see you", which is horribly ambiguous and unhelpful. The 5e version said "An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense." which is nice and clear. Truesight, Tremorsense, Blindsense, and See Invisibility were a non-exhaustive list, but they left it open enough that new spells or senses could allow an Invisible creature to be seen.
5.5e says 'you can't be seen unless you can be seen', with no clarity given on what could possibly make you seen. They tried to hamfist hiding into Invisible and made both of them not make any sense. It just smacks of laziness and a rush job. They already have SAC saying that the Truesight and See Invisibility, while they should RAW allow you to see someone hiding, don't let you see through that invisibility. They should have just made Hidden it's own condition.
Honestly, what is the difference between a "condition" and a "game state"? Can you give me any other examples of "game states"?? In fact, I searched "game state" in the Rules Glossary, and the only place it came up was in Condition: "A condition is a temporary game state." So Hiding is a condition that gives you another condition. ("Yo dawg")
We're not actually debating if passive perception exists or not, are we?
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
We're not actually debating if passive perception exists or not, are we?
When it comes to hiding and being hidden, the question is how long does it take for a passive perception to become enough to notice a hidden creature, or a creature that is attempting to remain hidden while taking any sort of action.
If a creature isn’t actively Searching around, then what if passively they would notice something that would be obvious if they where actively looking around. Using passive perception as a baseline is helpful for when the time comes a roll is needed to fulfill a plot armor event.( best way to describe the need for the roll)
While a static DC is one thing, it makes having to catch a hidden creature a problem because it forces active searching by all creatures or the hidden creature is invisible to anyone who “doesn’t see you plainly and clearly.”( hey another game state like stunned, and paralyzed, and yea.)
Passive perception is a skill based quick check function of the rules, and that skill based quick check and mechanical ability exist for any skill you would want to use in a passive manner. Aka passive stealth rolls so the amount of rolling needed is only reserved for plot or combat.
Not every person in combat or in a crowd is looking at everyone else constantly, some are looking at what is in front of them because it’s drawing their attention away. ( Help Action anyone, anyone, ?)
Anyone can ignore the passive perception score if they want to in order it toss more randomness, but in certain situations like combat passive checks are the time saver.
A hidden condition that defines how you no longer are hidden is what was in 2014, 2024 has muddled that in an attempt to minimize it like they did Surprise.
TL;DR stealth in D&D is per usual.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I keep it simple, Wisdom (Perception) check is used to detect concealed creature or object, opting for Passive Perception when i don't want to tip off that there's something to search.
They tried to hamfist hiding into Invisible and made both of them not make any sense. It just smacks of laziness and a rush job. They already have SAC saying that the Truesight and See Invisibility, while they should RAW allow you to see someone hiding, don't let you see through that invisibility. They should have just made Hidden it's own condition.
100 percent this
Call it the Hidden condition or Concealed or Cloaked or literally anything except Invisible
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
They already have SAC saying that the Truesight and See Invisibility, while they should RAW allow you to see someone hiding, don't let you see through that invisibility.
They already have SAC saying that the Truesight and See Invisibility, while they should RAW allow you to see someone hiding, don't let you see through that invisibility.
Which SAC say that?
None of them, it says the exact opposite. It's just that the SAC isn't any better written than the base stealth rules.
They already have SAC saying that the Truesight and See Invisibility, while they should RAW allow you to see someone hiding, don't let you see through that invisibility.
Which SAC say that?
None of them, it says the exact opposite. It's just that the SAC isn't any better written than the base stealth rules.
Yeah it actually says neither. It says if you can see them with either of those abilities then they aren't hidden anymore. But it says nothing on if you do see them, in the first place.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The thing that sort of saves the See Invisibility spell within this mechanic is that it says, "you see Invisible creatures and objects as if they were visible".
So, if another creature is behind total cover, then you would see that creature as if it were a visible creature . . . which means that you cannot actually see it as this moment because it's behind total cover. Just like you cannot see a normally visible creature at the moment that they are behind total cover. In other words, for the purposes of whether or not you can see the creature, you just ignore whether or not that creature has the Invisible condition and just consider all of the other normal factors involved in being able to see them or not. For example, in this case, the creature would be unable to pop-out to three-quarters cover while remaining unseen (normally allowed when "hidden").
It's not actually clear to me how an enemy's "See Invisibility" would break my status of being "hidden" if that enemy still cannot currently see or hear me.
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In many cases, the concept of Passive Perception as it relates to the Hide mechanics has been made obsolete by the update to the core rules in 2024 simply because a Passive Perception score below 15 cannot find a successfully hidden creature. Of the 334 monster stat blocks that have been made available in the free / basic rules of 2024, only approximately 99 of those have a Passive Perception score of at least 15. Of those, many of these are in that 15 - 17 range which will only rarely be high enough to matter. But note that every single stat block does have a value listed for Passive Perception -- it's clearly meant to be a core mechanic.
Remember, in order to transition from your location being "obvious" to "not obvious", you need to successfully Hide with a Stealth value of at least 15 which sets the DC for future Perception checks. Any time that your location is "obvious", another creature can successfully notice you without making any check -- essentially, the DC is 0. Or, in other words, the Perception effort will be an auto-success, and a DM only asks for a check in situations where the outcome is uncertain -- they do not ask for one in situations where the outcome is guaranteed to be an auto-success.
Next, the Search action is defined as attempting "to discern something that isn’t obvious". Similarly, the Perception skill is defined as "Using a combination of senses, notice something that’s easy to miss". A.k.a., something that isn't obvious. So, once you successfully transition into a game state where your location is not obvious by successfully hiding, we now have a mechanic which creates a sliding scale that determines exactly "how not obvious" your location actually has become. If your Stealth value is particularly high, then your location is quite strongly not obvious. If your Stealth value is sort of middling, then your location is just sort of not obvious.
Depending on just how strong another creature's Passive Perception score is, that creature might be able to automatically notice some things that are quite strongly not obvious. Or, they might have a middling Passive Perception score which is only good enough to be able to automatically notice some things that are just sort of not obvious. The majority of creatures have Passive Perception scores that are simply not good enough to ever find any creature who's location isn't obvious (any Passive Perception score below 15).
This mechanic ties in with the general concept that we only ask for a check when the outcome is uncertain. Passive Perception rules also indicate that this ability to automatically notice certain things occurs without expending action economy:
"Actively looking" implies making an effort or an attempt which would require an action (the Search action). In this case, the benefit is conferred passively without any action required.
And how many monsters and creatures in both the basic rules and the MM have a passive perception of 10 or higher?
With only 29.64% of just the basic rules monsters having the the ability to meet or beat an active Stealth roll that has to at worst roll a 15 to even attempt to hide, why is the DC so high?
What if the static DC was 10 what percentage of creatures/monsters would be capable of passively detecting a creature passively and/or actively tying to hide?
Avg passive stealth is 8+prof(or expertise)+abilityMod =?
Avg active stealth is Avg( 1d20 = ~10.5+-.5) + skillMod( prof(or expertise)+abilityMod =?)
If we make the avg passive stealth roll an 11 in both cases, with avg dex mod avg of 0, then how many passive perceptions do we have to beat to prevent having to roll?
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
"Passive Stealth" doesn't exist. Passive tests are perception tests of one sort or another that primarily exist to allow characters to either test against a DC without their knowledge or without taking an action. Using "Passive Stealth" would be roughly akin to making a "Passive Attack" where you just take a 10 on the attack instead of spending an Action.
Also, those Passive Perception checks can be done at Advantage or Disadvantage (which shifts the roll by 5 in one direction or another).
If it's a passive check there is no roll. You just compare the score to the DC.
The rules allow to give +5 or -5 for advantage/disadvantage on Passive Perception, which may or may not help a creature notice someone. Also, both players and the DM can call for Perception checks whenever a situation merits it per the DMG:
If I were the DM, if someone is hiding from an enemy and they come out into the open to try to attack the creature, I would roll a Perception check to see if the creature notices the player instead of using passive perception, unless I don't want the player to know if they were noticed. In other words, "Let the Dice Gods decide". This is what I believe can maintain the spirit of the stealthy Rogue instead of automatically shutting down this gameplay.
players cant, by the rules, directly call for checks other than taking a specific action (like search or influence). They say what they want to do narratively, and the DM determines if there is a check and what it requires.
"
You decide when a player makes a [D20 Test] based on what the character is trying to do. Players shouldn’t just roll ability checks without context; they should tell you what their characters are trying to achieve, and make ability checks only if you ask them to."
passive checks are all DM determination, including perception
now informally, some players speak in rules so may just say can i make a perception check, but really, its DM that calls for checks.
there is a big difference between the facts, and logical deduction of facts, and what one thinks the intent is. By the facts, DMs determine when to use passive perception for a number of reasons, but it is not required by perception or stealth rules, and that was a concious choice in 2024. And thats because it was always meant to be a DM option, the 2014 rules said it speciically in the entry on passive checks.
Passive checks are never required, and always dm option, Passive perceptiom is by far the most common one, but its not required at all. The DM decides when and how to roll DC20 tests, unless the rules say they have to. Nowhere in the hide rules does it state enemies all must make a perceptiom check just by the virtue of someone attempting to, or being hidden. They leave that up to DM discretion. They do however reccomend it.
Even if you as a dm think that creatures should always get a perception check when anything is hidden, passive is still just an option, as you (the DM) can call for an actual roll instead. Passive checks are in the realm of DMs many options for resolving outcomes, including narrative answer, group check, passive check, Dc 20 versus a DC set by another creatures roll, Saves, advantage and disadvantage, they never required.
Also as many others have said, advantage and disadvantage matter.
situationally Dm can apply disadvantage to a stealth roll, and advantage to a passive perception or vice versa. One of the situations where they might give a passive bonus to perception is if it would be hard not to notice the hiding person, like if they are out in the open. They specifically remind DMs of this in the passive perception rules, even though its a standard rule. Likely because passive perception will commonly involve advantage or disadvantage.
As I see it ether you have passive skill abilities, like passive perception or passive stealth, passive Survival and other such mechanics or you don’t have any passive abilities not even passive perception.
Facing was always a thing in D&D and normally people use tokens or minis that might normally have a means if showing which way a creature is looking, but if tokens are used that don’t have any means of showing in what direction a creature is facing then how can anyone tell if they are sneaking up behind the target?
And using passive skills and checks can help smooth out gameplay by allowing rolling to those who love tossing dice left and right while minimizing rolling for those who find rolling tedious.
As it currently is with the rules, a lot of the “is a hidden creature seen” is placed on the DM to determine, then saying that as soon as a hidden creature does anything it automatically loses its hidden state regardless if the creature was ever actually seen is broken.
but if both player and DM understand that the invisibility granted by hiding is only temporary unless a spell is involved to continuously make the creature invisible and is a game state that is independent to every creature involved something has to be done to protect and prevent ether side from abusing the mechanics.
Passive skill mechanics help the best of both worlds because a stealth creature with say +7 stealth and a passive total of 15 could easily beat a 15 without trying to be extra stealthy.
but that is if the creature commits fully to gaining expertise in the particular skill, what happens to the non extreme creatures that might only normally have just a 50/50 chance of remaining hidden? Do they get punished for not being as skilled in hiding like only a small number are?
And again what number of creatures throughout the entire game have passive perception skills that can beat a stealth score of 11 or higher?
With a passive stealth skill of 0 and +5 from static advantage, a non stealth heavy creature would have no problem hiding and making the DC, and anyone with a negative skill ability or disadvantage would have to roll to offset the negative impact.
A lot of useful mechanics have been stripped because people think if it isn’t explained in detail and if it isn’t explicitly stated, then it’s just homebrew and not actual mechanics that do exist but not all in one place. But we all know the rules and mechanics of the game are sprinkled throughout the entirety of all the books and rules, and no one rule can cover every single aspect of the infinite possibilities that could exist.
Passive skill checks can cover a good bit of the heavy lifting, and active checks can help refine and reduce the possibilities to a more manageable level both for players and DMs.
Trying to minimize hiding and being hidden in the same way they minimized being surprised is not the way to fix it, it’s impossible.
If a static DC must be used, 15 is far too aggressive and a value if 11-13 is not that high as to discourage usage attempts.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I completely agree with all of this. This is an excellent way to run a game and it's what is recommended by the rules.
This, however, is going a bit too far in my opinion. Passive Perception in particular is clearly meant to be a core mechanic of the game.
Every single monster stat block goes out of its way to use up some ink and some line count to explicitly list a value for Passive Perception for the monster. In 99+% of all game situations, this is obviously intended to interface with PC attempts at stealth -- whether a PC is attempting to Hide in combat or they are attempting some sort of stealth outside of combat. There's hardly ever any other reason for an NPC to ever use this stat during a game.
As for the PC side of things, the Passive Perception score is included on the official character sheets which track the stats for the character. In the chapter which describes "Character Creation" / "Creating a Character", part of the procedure for creating a character explicitly explains how to calculate and record the Passive Perception score for your character:
Character Creation --> Creating a Character --> Create Your Character --> Step 5: Fill In Details --> Fill In Numbers:
This is a mechanic that is meant to be used by the DM to the point that it appears on every monster stat block and every character sheet.
In this respect, it's sort of similar to the DM tool of applying advantage or disadvantage in situations that the DM deems are appropriate. Yes, it's technically optional and it's up to the DM to decide when the situation is appropriate, but it's still a core mechanic that is meant to be used during normal gameplay.
Lastly, note that the Hide action rules specifically do not mention anything about taking the Search action. Instead, they phrase the mechanic like this:
In my opinion, the intention is that using an action to take the Search action is only one subset of the possible ways that a creature can "find" another creature with his Perception skill. By not requiring the Search action, the text allows a creature to be found by an active Wisdom (Perception) check, or by a Passive Perception "check". Even though it might be possible to nitpick and claim that the Passive Perception score is not technically a "check", the wording in the Glossary for Passive Perception makes it pretty clear that it can be used in place of the term "Wisdom (Perception) check" any place in the rules where such a check might apply:
The most straightforward way to incorporate Passive Perception (in combat, at least) with the 2024 rules is when the hidden person is moving. Each move action, compare their Stealth check to the Passive Perception of any nearby enemies, to see if they are found. (And, as I've mentioned several times in this thread, I'd just reuse the Hide's Stealth check for the first move action, which streamlines things.)
Nominally, this is for hearing them, but it could also be for seeing movement in the corner of your eyes or whatever.
Regardless, this is generally a DM-only mechanic, because the (arguable) primary purpose of Passive Perception scores is when the DM doesn't want to alert people that something is "missable." And when NPCs are the ones getting snuck past, the PC doesn't know their score, anyway.
just because something is on a stat block or sheet doesnt mean the DM must use them, many things on a stat block rarely come up. Many creatures have tool proficiencies they never use, every monster has their hit dice, and their random HP formula on the stat block, i have extremely rarely used either. Monster stat blocks are supposed to house whatever information the DM might need to run the monster. Player charachter sheets are meant to house everything about the charachter, even if its super rare.
I do believe that they think passive perception is a useful tool for running games, and is commonly used, However, they never commited to passive perception as something the dm always uses, because doing so drastically alters the dice/win ratio. If you are always employing passive perception, especially uniformly with PC and monsters, you basically make perception the only skill that has a minimum roll.
IE, for everything else a +7 means the outcomes are anywhere from 8 -27 but if you uniformly apply passive perception, the range of possibilities becomes 17-27 what this means is perception becomes an unfairly stable stat that benefits way more greatly from static bonuses. (this is because by doing nothing i am always taking a 10). it also makes players more likely not to actively use perception, especially in initiative, because there is a 50% chance it wont be better than a passive.
Now for many people, thats worth it because it speeds up the game, But they wanted to keep the DMs options open, passive checks do warp the math of the game and gameplay, and they wanted it to be that the dm isnt required to use it. Just the fact the player can't depend on the idea that the DM always uses passive perception or stats can introduce uncertainty, where it was designed to be. Instead of rolling a 17, and being sure that only a special creature will find you, there is always a possibility someone will roll high. This allows the dm's random rolls to create tension.
keep in mind the hide rules and much of the phb represent the rules for all creatures, not the rules for just monsters.
i dont think it was an accident at all, that they never told players or DMs to always use passive perception, and removed it from rules.
To be 100% clear i think that the designers intended players to commonly use passive perception some times for speed, some times for keep people unaware, but i think they expect there will be many times, especially high stakes or tense times where they will rely on rolls.
IE
a slim percentage of DMs will never or rarely use passive perception
most DMs will use it commonly, but also not use it situationally, there is no guarantee your passive perception is being employed.
a slim percentage will use it all the time, rarely making exceptions
i dont think they expect it to baseline always on.
I agree with most of what you said except the idea that passive check undermine active rolls.
Keep in mind that a passive check, while more stable, has much less influence than an active one.
Succeeding a passive perception check is not supposed to reveal as much information as taking the Search action.
To come back to stealth, I think it's clear that you're supposed to use passive perception checks for enemies after the PCs hide. If you're hidden and approach enemies, they have no reason to take the Search action, unless they're an especially overzealous guard who does so every minute. So the only way they would even have a chance to detect you is by making a passive check when you're in range of one of their senses.
Maybe a better way to run it would be if their Passive Perception beats your Stealth roll, then they noticed something. A guard would go investigate (Search, not roll an investigation check), a docile deer might go back to munching grass, a hungry Owlbear might start scanning to prevent anything from stealing its kill, etc..
A lot of these issues come to the Invisible condition that has the line, "can somehow see you", which is horribly ambiguous and unhelpful. The 5e version said "An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense." which is nice and clear. Truesight, Tremorsense, Blindsense, and See Invisibility were a non-exhaustive list, but they left it open enough that new spells or senses could allow an Invisible creature to be seen.
5.5e says 'you can't be seen unless you can be seen', with no clarity given on what could possibly make you seen. They tried to hamfist hiding into Invisible and made both of them not make any sense. It just smacks of laziness and a rush job. They already have SAC saying that the Truesight and See Invisibility, while they should RAW allow you to see someone hiding, don't let you see through that invisibility. They should have just made Hidden it's own condition.
Honestly, what is the difference between a "condition" and a "game state"? Can you give me any other examples of "game states"?? In fact, I searched "game state" in the Rules Glossary, and the only place it came up was in Condition: "A condition is a temporary game state." So Hiding is a condition that gives you another condition. ("Yo dawg")
We're not actually debating if passive perception exists or not, are we?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
When it comes to hiding and being hidden, the question is how long does it take for a passive perception to become enough to notice a hidden creature, or a creature that is attempting to remain hidden while taking any sort of action.
If a creature isn’t actively Searching around, then what if passively they would notice something that would be obvious if they where actively looking around.
Using passive perception as a baseline is helpful for when the time comes a roll is needed to fulfill a plot armor event.( best way to describe the need for the roll)
While a static DC is one thing, it makes having to catch a hidden creature a problem because it forces active searching by all creatures or the hidden creature is invisible to anyone who “doesn’t see you plainly and clearly.”( hey another game state like stunned, and paralyzed, and yea.)
Passive perception is a skill based quick check function of the rules, and that skill based quick check and mechanical ability exist for any skill you would want to use in a passive manner. Aka passive stealth rolls so the amount of rolling needed is only reserved for plot or combat.
Not every person in combat or in a crowd is looking at everyone else constantly, some are looking at what is in front of them because it’s drawing their attention away. ( Help Action anyone, anyone, ?)
Anyone can ignore the passive perception score if they want to in order it toss more randomness, but in certain situations like combat passive checks are the time saver.
A hidden condition that defines how you no longer are hidden is what was in 2014, 2024 has muddled that in an attempt to minimize it like they did Surprise.
TL;DR stealth in D&D is per usual.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I keep it simple, Wisdom (Perception) check is used to detect concealed creature or object, opting for Passive Perception when i don't want to tip off that there's something to search.
100 percent this
Call it the Hidden condition or Concealed or Cloaked or literally anything except Invisible
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Which SAC say that?
None of them, it says the exact opposite. It's just that the SAC isn't any better written than the base stealth rules.
Yeah it actually says neither. It says if you can see them with either of those abilities then they aren't hidden anymore. But it says nothing on if you do see them, in the first place.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The thing that sort of saves the See Invisibility spell within this mechanic is that it says, "you see Invisible creatures and objects as if they were visible".
So, if another creature is behind total cover, then you would see that creature as if it were a visible creature . . . which means that you cannot actually see it as this moment because it's behind total cover. Just like you cannot see a normally visible creature at the moment that they are behind total cover. In other words, for the purposes of whether or not you can see the creature, you just ignore whether or not that creature has the Invisible condition and just consider all of the other normal factors involved in being able to see them or not. For example, in this case, the creature would be unable to pop-out to three-quarters cover while remaining unseen (normally allowed when "hidden").
It's not actually clear to me how an enemy's "See Invisibility" would break my status of being "hidden" if that enemy still cannot currently see or hear me.