Basically do spells granted by feats count as being part of your spell list for class features that require spells from your spell list.
e.g. The interaction between Eldritch Knight's improved war magic and Shadow Touched
Level 18: Improved War Magic
When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace two of the attacks with a casting of one of your level 1 or level 2 Wizard spells that has a casting time of an action.
Shadow Magic. Choose one level 1 spell from the Illusion or Necromancy school of magic. You always have that spell and the Invisibility spell prepared. You can cast each of these spells without expending a spell slot. Once you cast either spell in this way, you can’t cast that spell in this way again until you finish a Long Rest. You can also cast these spells using spell slots you have of the appropriate level. The spells’ spellcasting ability is the ability increased by this feat.
Per Sage Advice (see here) it counts as a Wizard spell if it's on the Wizard list, or if some feature says it counts as one.
Invisibility is on the Wizard list, so it counts. The other spell you get from that feat might or might not count, depending on which one you choose.
I feel like the Sage Advice doesn't give enough clarity here. For instance, if I'm a multi-class Warlock/Eldritch Knight, and I take Invisibility as a Warlock spell, would that count as a Wizard spell? If I take one level of Wizard, and then nineteen levels of Sorcerer, can I cast all the Sorcerer spells that overlap with Sorcerer and Wizard as "Wizard" spells, using INT as my Spellcasting Ability Modifier?
My ruling as a person on this forum would be to ask your DM/decide what works for you and your players and do that. My strict interpretation would be that any spells not specifically identified as "Wizard" spells (e.g. spells granted by taking a Wizard class dip or picking up the Magic Initiate: Wizard feat) would not count as a Wizard spell. My "Rule of Cool" interpretation would be that IDGAF, and you can kinda just do what you want, as long as it's on the Wizard spell list or gained as part of a Wizard-adjacent feature.
Per Sage Advice (see here) it counts as a Wizard spell if it's on the Wizard list, or if some feature says it counts as one.
Invisibility is on the Wizard list, so it counts. The other spell you get from that feat might or might not count, depending on which one you choose.
I feel like the Sage Advice doesn't give enough clarity here. For instance, if I'm a multi-class Warlock/Eldritch Knight, and I take Invisibility as a Warlock spell, would that count as a Wizard spell? [...]
Yes, Invisibility belongs to Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock and Wizard.
[...] If I take one level of Wizard, and then nineteen levels of Sorcerer, can I cast all the Sorcerer spells that overlap with Sorcerer and Wizard as "Wizard" spells, using INT as my Spellcasting Ability Modifier?
No, because according to the multiclassing rules:
Spells Prepared.You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
There is also an additional answer in the SAC about multiclassing that confirms how this works:
Okay, that's fair. I hear that, and I'm glad there's clarity there, because I'm sure someone would find a way to make a "nuke wizard" with that loophole. But that only serves to cast more confusion on the original question. The spells you get from the Shadow Touched feat are not prepared as part of preparing your Wizard spells as an Eldritch Knight. Does this mean, since there is no actual class they're prepared as, they're prepared as de facto Wizard spells? What, then, if you pick Inflict Wounds as your 1st-level spell? That isn't on the Wizard spell list, so it's either a direct contradiction of the original Sage Advice, or it's not prepared as a Wizard spell. As such, Invisibility could also not be prepared as a Wizard spell, and thus not be something you could apply your Eldritch Knight. Or it could.
I honestly think the intention of the Eldritch Knight ability is to be limited to exclusively spells you learn from either the Eldritch Knight class, the Wizard class, or any other feat or ability that identifies spells as at least specifically originating from the Wizard spell list, such as Magic Initiate. In the instance of Shadow Touched, I'd say the specific intention is that the spells are inherent or stand-alone, like lineage spells (excluding, I suppose the High Elf's Cantrip), and would not be subject to the ability, regardless of whether they're in the Wizard spell list or not. That said, again, it's such a nothingburger rule that, if it was creating an iota of conflict at my table, I'd just give it to them, because the game's supposed to be fun.
Okay, that's fair. I hear that, and I'm glad there's clarity there, because I'm sure someone would find a way to make a "nuke wizard" with that loophole. But that only serves to cast more confusion on the original question. The spells you get from the Shadow Touched feat are not prepared as part of preparing your Wizard spells as an Eldritch Knight. Does this mean, since there is no actual class they're prepared as, they're prepared as de facto Wizard spells? What, then, if you pick Inflict Wounds as your 1st-level spell? That isn't on the Wizard spell list, so it's either a direct contradiction of the original Sage Advice, or it's not prepared as a Wizard spell. As such, Invisibility could also not be prepared as a Wizard spell, and thus not be something you could apply your Eldritch Knight. Or it could.
No. If you are a Wizard with Magic Initiate (Cleric) and pick Inflict Wounds, Inflict Wounds is not a Wizard spell.
If you instead took the Witherbloom Student (Strixhaven Curriculum of Chaos), it adds Inflict Wounds to all of your spell lists and so it would then count, if you prepared it as a Wizard spell.
The Sage Advice does technically mean that any spells received via species traits, feats, and other sources other through your class are not class spells. However, I think this interpretation introduces some problems. Magic Initiate, Fey-touched, Shadow-touched and the such never prepare spells as part of your class and so those will never be considered class spells.
Has that sage advice changed, it seems like the same one as the one from 2014. And if so, if it still applies who knows. Some of the things if it is as written seem off as for example a warlocks pact of the tome specifies they are class spells. But armor of shadows does not, so now you can't use your focus? Some how I do not think that is the intended design, so im thinking that sage advice needs updating. this did not kick in for 2014 as the invocations like this were without material components.
That being said i do not think it will apply to the magic initiate origin feats, though I think it should. mainly due to the focus part, its just an annoying hoop that diminishes fun imo.
To me, Eldritch Invocations are considered Warlock spells, but let's assume they are not, then the SAC is saying you couldn't use your spellcasting focus for Armor of Shadows (Mage Armor), Ascendant Step (Levitate), and many other spells with M components.
IMO, the SAC is trying to address cases where you can cast known spells but don't prepare them, like the debatable Eldritch Invocations, the one Ins0mniac_cat asked about, or for example, if your Wood Elf Wizard can use their spellcasting focus for Longstrider granted by their trait (considering you didn't know that spell before)
To me, Eldritch Invocations are considered Warlock spells, but let's assume they are not, then the SAC is saying you couldn't use your spellcasting focus for Armor of Shadows (Mage Armor), Ascendant Step (Levitate), and many other spells with M components.
Yeah, I guess Pact Magic only makes spells Warlock spells if they are prepared and the Eldritch Invocations are Warlock features but they don't give you prepared spells. So, RAW they are not Warlock spells, but I agree with on RAI. I think they just didn't want to give access to upcasting. I think Pact Magic should be revised as saying that spells granted by Warlock features are considered Warlock spells.
That doesn't help OP though. I think with the Sage Advice, Invisibility from the Shadow-touched feat is not a Wizard spell, but without it, it is. I don't always agree with the SAC/Jeremy Crawford and this is one of those times.
[...] That doesn't help OP though. I think with the Sage Advice, Invisibility from the Shadow-touched feat is not a Wizard spell, but without it, it is. [...]
Isn't it the opposite? With the SAC, that spell is a Wizard spell, and also a Bard, Sorcerer, and Warlock one (green text added by me):
A class’s spell list specifies the spells that belong to the class. For example, a SorcererWizard spell is a spell on the SorcererWizard spell list, and if an SorcererEldritch Knight knows spells that aren’t on that list, those spells aren’t SorcererWizard spells unless a feature says otherwise.
I want to be honest here. Without the SAC, my interpretation was always the one you gave in your previous explanation or for example here:
The spells you get from the Shadow Touched feat are not prepared as part of preparing your Wizard spells as an Eldritch Knight. Does this mean, since there is no actual class they're prepared as, they're prepared as de facto Wizard spells? What, then, if you pick Inflict Wounds as your 1st-level spell? That isn't on the Wizard spell list, so it's either a direct contradiction of the original Sage Advice, or it's not prepared as a Wizard spell. As such, Invisibility could also not be prepared as a Wizard spell, and thus not be something you could apply your Eldritch Knight. Or it could.
I honestly think the intention of the Eldritch Knight ability is to be limited to exclusively spells you learn from either the Eldritch Knight class, the Wizard class, or any other feat or ability that identifies spells as at least specifically originating from the Wizard spell list, such as Magic Initiate. In the instance of Shadow Touched, I'd say the specific intention is that the spells are inherent or stand-alone, like lineage spells (excluding, I suppose the High Elf's Cantrip), and would not be subject to the ability, regardless of whether they're in the Wizard spell list or not. That said, again, it's such a nothingburger rule that, if it was creating an iota of conflict at my table, I'd just give it to them, because the game's supposed to be fun.
The interesting things about EK is that the subclass Spellcasting feature doesn't have the same "counts as a Wizard spell" language that a Wizard's spellcasting feature does
If another Wizard feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Wizard spells for you.
Without that language, you've got two ways to interpret which spells count for War Magic/Improved War Magic
1. When those features say "your Wizard cantrips/spells", they mean only the spells gained through your Spellcasting feature (i.e., the emphasis is on "your") 2. Any spell you gain from any source qualifies for War Magic/Improved War Magic, so long as it's on the Wizard spell list
The issues I have with the first interpretation are that if they'd wanted to specify only the spells on your prepared spell list, they could have just said that; and I'm not sure there's any other examples in the rules of "your" being used that restrictively
The second interpretation makes more sense to me -- so to bring it back around, yes, I would say you could use Improved War Magic to cast invisibility gained through the Shadow Touched feat
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Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
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Basically do spells granted by feats count as being part of your spell list for class features that require spells from your spell list.
e.g. The interaction between Eldritch Knight's improved war magic and Shadow Touched
Level 18: Improved War Magic
When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace two of the attacks with a casting of one of your level 1 or level 2 Wizard spells that has a casting time of an action.
Shadow Magic. Choose one level 1 spell from the Illusion or Necromancy school of magic. You always have that spell and the Invisibility spell prepared. You can cast each of these spells without expending a spell slot. Once you cast either spell in this way, you can’t cast that spell in this way again until you finish a Long Rest. You can also cast these spells using spell slots you have of the appropriate level. The spells’ spellcasting ability is the ability increased by this feat.
Would you rule that it counts or no?
Per Sage Advice (see here) it counts as a Wizard spell if it's on the Wizard list, or if some feature says it counts as one.
Invisibility is on the Wizard list, so it counts. The other spell you get from that feat might or might not count, depending on which one you choose.
pronouns: he/she/they
I feel like the Sage Advice doesn't give enough clarity here. For instance, if I'm a multi-class Warlock/Eldritch Knight, and I take Invisibility as a Warlock spell, would that count as a Wizard spell? If I take one level of Wizard, and then nineteen levels of Sorcerer, can I cast all the Sorcerer spells that overlap with Sorcerer and Wizard as "Wizard" spells, using INT as my Spellcasting Ability Modifier?
My ruling as a person on this forum would be to ask your DM/decide what works for you and your players and do that. My strict interpretation would be that any spells not specifically identified as "Wizard" spells (e.g. spells granted by taking a Wizard class dip or picking up the Magic Initiate: Wizard feat) would not count as a Wizard spell. My "Rule of Cool" interpretation would be that IDGAF, and you can kinda just do what you want, as long as it's on the Wizard spell list or gained as part of a Wizard-adjacent feature.
Yes, Invisibility belongs to Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock and Wizard.
But regarding to your second question:
No, because according to the multiclassing rules:
There is also an additional answer in the SAC about multiclassing that confirms how this works:
Okay, that's fair. I hear that, and I'm glad there's clarity there, because I'm sure someone would find a way to make a "nuke wizard" with that loophole. But that only serves to cast more confusion on the original question. The spells you get from the Shadow Touched feat are not prepared as part of preparing your Wizard spells as an Eldritch Knight. Does this mean, since there is no actual class they're prepared as, they're prepared as de facto Wizard spells? What, then, if you pick Inflict Wounds as your 1st-level spell? That isn't on the Wizard spell list, so it's either a direct contradiction of the original Sage Advice, or it's not prepared as a Wizard spell. As such, Invisibility could also not be prepared as a Wizard spell, and thus not be something you could apply your Eldritch Knight. Or it could.
I honestly think the intention of the Eldritch Knight ability is to be limited to exclusively spells you learn from either the Eldritch Knight class, the Wizard class, or any other feat or ability that identifies spells as at least specifically originating from the Wizard spell list, such as Magic Initiate. In the instance of Shadow Touched, I'd say the specific intention is that the spells are inherent or stand-alone, like lineage spells (excluding, I suppose the High Elf's Cantrip), and would not be subject to the ability, regardless of whether they're in the Wizard spell list or not. That said, again, it's such a nothingburger rule that, if it was creating an iota of conflict at my table, I'd just give it to them, because the game's supposed to be fun.
No. If you are a Wizard with Magic Initiate (Cleric) and pick Inflict Wounds, Inflict Wounds is not a Wizard spell.
If you instead took the Witherbloom Student (Strixhaven Curriculum of Chaos), it adds Inflict Wounds to all of your spell lists and so it would then count, if you prepared it as a Wizard spell.
The Sage Advice does technically mean that any spells received via species traits, feats, and other sources other through your class are not class spells. However, I think this interpretation introduces some problems. Magic Initiate, Fey-touched, Shadow-touched and the such never prepare spells as part of your class and so those will never be considered class spells.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Has that sage advice changed, it seems like the same one as the one from 2014. And if so, if it still applies who knows. Some of the things if it is as written seem off as for example a warlocks pact of the tome specifies they are class spells. But armor of shadows does not, so now you can't use your focus? Some how I do not think that is the intended design, so im thinking that sage advice needs updating. this did not kick in for 2014 as the invocations like this were without material components.
That being said i do not think it will apply to the magic initiate origin feats, though I think it should. mainly due to the focus part, its just an annoying hoop that diminishes fun imo.
You know, there was a huge debate about whether Pact Magic also makes your Eldritch Invocations count as Warlock spells (What exactly is considered a Warlock Spell, especially when multiclassing), but the answers are pre-2024 SAC.
To me, Eldritch Invocations are considered Warlock spells, but let's assume they are not, then the SAC is saying you couldn't use your spellcasting focus for Armor of Shadows (Mage Armor), Ascendant Step (Levitate), and many other spells with M components.
IMO, the SAC is trying to address cases where you can cast known spells but don't prepare them, like the debatable Eldritch Invocations, the one Ins0mniac_cat asked about, or for example, if your Wood Elf Wizard can use their spellcasting focus for Longstrider granted by their trait (considering you didn't know that spell before)
Yeah, I guess Pact Magic only makes spells Warlock spells if they are prepared and the Eldritch Invocations are Warlock features but they don't give you prepared spells. So, RAW they are not Warlock spells, but I agree with on RAI. I think they just didn't want to give access to upcasting. I think Pact Magic should be revised as saying that spells granted by Warlock features are considered Warlock spells.
That doesn't help OP though. I think with the Sage Advice, Invisibility from the Shadow-touched feat is not a Wizard spell, but without it, it is. I don't always agree with the SAC/Jeremy Crawford and this is one of those times.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Isn't it the opposite? With the SAC, that spell is a Wizard spell, and also a Bard, Sorcerer, and Warlock one (green text added by me):
I want to be honest here. Without the SAC, my interpretation was always the one you gave in your previous explanation or for example here:
- Class spell lists
- Fey-Touched Spell Save DC
The interesting things about EK is that the subclass Spellcasting feature doesn't have the same "counts as a Wizard spell" language that a Wizard's spellcasting feature does
Without that language, you've got two ways to interpret which spells count for War Magic/Improved War Magic
1. When those features say "your Wizard cantrips/spells", they mean only the spells gained through your Spellcasting feature (i.e., the emphasis is on "your")
2. Any spell you gain from any source qualifies for War Magic/Improved War Magic, so long as it's on the Wizard spell list
The issues I have with the first interpretation are that if they'd wanted to specify only the spells on your prepared spell list, they could have just said that; and I'm not sure there's any other examples in the rules of "your" being used that restrictively
The second interpretation makes more sense to me -- so to bring it back around, yes, I would say you could use Improved War Magic to cast invisibility gained through the Shadow Touched feat
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)