@Pantagruel666 "Temporary Hit Points aren't Hit Points" - Player's Handbook 2024: Damage and Healing: Temporary Hit Points: They're Not Hit Points or Healing. So clearly temporary hit points are NOT preserved by Polymorph.
Temporary hit points are not part of your stat block (an ability that grants tHP might be, but the tHP themselves are not).
@TarodNet The rules for Temporary Hit Points aren't a part of the spell, so there's no reason for them to be void when the spell ends unless specifically stated otherwise. There's no "specific" here to override the "general" THP rules.
The Temporary Hit Points granted by the spell are part of its effects and should end when Concentration is broken or the spell's Duration expires.
@SmiteMakesRight_3_5 I disagree about Heroism, but I agree about Polymorph for a different reason; that's what I'm trying to clear up.
Here's another example I came up with. Consider the spell Grease: "each creature standing in its area must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or have the Prone condition." If the creature doesn't choose to stand up using movement or another ability, they don't magically do so when one minute elapses. That's because the spell doesn't say they get the condition "until the spell ends."
Please quote or link to the entire spell, in this case, Grease.
Nonflammable grease covers the ground in a 10-foot square centered on a point within range and turns it into Difficult Terrain for the duration.
When the grease appears, each creature standing in its area must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or have the Prone condition. A creature that enters the area or ends its turn there must also succeed on that save or fall Prone.
Grease creates a area covered by grease for the duration. The area is difficult terrain for the duration. In addition, it is slippery at creatures in the area must make a save or fall prone. This is an effect of the summoned Grease, not the spell.
If a creature damages another creature while affected by Confusion, that damage is not an effect of the spell and is not subject to the spell's duration.
@SmiteMakesRight_3_5 I don't think you're going to argue that you lose the hit points restored by Aura of Vitality when the spell ends, so clearly a spell with a duration can have lingering effects.
Healing is not a status, whereas temporary hit points are generally treated as a status. That said, if tHP are supposed to end when the spell duration expires for non-instantaneous spell, there's all of one spell in the game (false life) where the rule about ending on a long rest is relevant, so it seems odd that they'd put a general rule about temporary hit point duration in if the intent is that temporary hit points from non-instantaneous effects expire immediately when the effect ends. The problem is that gaining 100+ temporary hit points from a level 4 spell (with no ill effects, since you can just cast the spell and immediately end concentration) obviously exceeds the expected power level of a 4th level spell, so there's an inclination to assume "that can't be what they really meant".
The general rule for Temporary Hit Points exists for more than just one spell, though. There are two General Feats (Chef and Inspiring Leader) which rely on it. And there are class and subclass features which also grant them; some of which I'll list below:
Barbarian: Path of the World Tree 3 (Vitality Surge)
Bard: College of Glamour 3 (Mantle of Inspiration)
And literally everyone else can acquire the False Life spell via class progression. And most all of these I would call instantaneous effects that don't expire. They're just things the players can do.
The general rule for Temporary Hit Points exists for more than just one spell, though.
Ah, valid point, though I suspect wild shape is similar to polymorph in that the tHP were intended to go away when the wild shape ended.
That's a possibility. But it's only 2-20 THP, 6-60 if their subclass is Circle of the Moon, and losing it all doesn't force them back to their humanoid form.
I'd say the THP you gain while shape-shifted are lost when you return to your normal form. I know this is debatable, but the way I read the feature, its rules apply only while you're in a form.
Rules While Shape-Shifted. While in a form, you retain your personality, memories, and ability to speak, and the following rules apply:
Temporary Hit Points. When you assume a Wild Shape form, you gain a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to your Druid level.
@TarodNet The rules for Temporary Hit Points aren't a part of the spell, so there's no reason for them to be void when the spell ends unless specifically stated otherwise. There's no "specific" here to override the "general" THP rules.
The Temporary Hit Points granted by the spell are part of its effects and should end when Concentration is broken or the spell's Duration expires.
The THP is not an effect of Polymorph, or False Life, or Heroism, or any other spell that grants it. The effect of the spell is to give you THP. When a spell changes something, it is not reverted by default when the spell ends; damage taken is not restored, objects destroyed are not repaired, etc. There is no reason to believe that THP is any different unless a rule specifically states otherwise. Back in the 2014 edition, it did specifically state otherwise is almost every case; but it doesn't now, and so it isn't otherwise anymore.
@Pantagruel666 "Temporary Hit Points aren't Hit Points" - Player's Handbook 2024: Damage and Healing: Temporary Hit Points: They're Not Hit Points or Healing. So clearly temporary hit points are NOT preserved by Polymorph.
Temporary hit points are not part of your stat block (an ability that grants tHP might be, but the tHP themselves are not).
Yes, this is something I've considered. Here's a possibly important detail: Polymorph doesn't replace the player's stat block (players don't even get one) but rather your game statistics. That's a broad category without a precise definition, but I don't believe it's a stretch to include your amount of Temporary Hit Points in it. Still, this is the detail I'm most uncertain about.
Yes, this is something I've considered. Here's a possibly important detail: Polymorph doesn't replace the player's stat block (players don't even get one) but rather your game statistics. That's a broad category without a precise definition, but I don't believe it's a stretch to include your amount of Temporary Hit Points in it. Still, this is the detail I'm most uncertain about.
Would max hp reduction be removed? It seems directly comparable.
Incidentally, here's a combo I hadn't thought of before: cast polymorph on a warlock who has cast armor of agathys, and suddenly to neutralize it you need to plow through the giant tHP total of a polymorph, instead of the mere 20 hp it would be expected to grant at the level when polymorph is available.
@TarodNet The rules for Temporary Hit Points aren't a part of the spell, so there's no reason for them to be void when the spell ends unless specifically stated otherwise. There's no "specific" here to override the "general" THP rules.
The Temporary Hit Points granted by the spell are part of its effects and should end when Concentration is broken or the spell's Duration expires.
The THP is not an effect of Polymorph, or False Life, or Heroism, or any other spell that grants it. The effect of the spell is to give you THP. When a spell changes something, it is not reverted by default when the spell ends; damage taken is not restored, objects destroyed are not repaired, etc. There is no reason to believe that THP is any different unless a rule specifically states otherwise. Back in the 2014 edition, it did specifically state otherwise is almost every case; but it doesn't now, and so it isn't otherwise anymore.
You are mixing Instantaneous and Concentration spells for your statement (note: your tooltips are from 2014 but this debate is about 2024 spells)
In any case, as a DM allowing what you're proposing means your players retain a huge amount of TPH even when Concentration is broken or the spell's Duration expires. I don't think that's a good idea, that's all.
In any case, as a DM allowing what you're proposing means your players retain a huge amount of TPH even when Concentration is broken or the spell's Duration expires. I don't think that's a good idea, that's all.
Whether something is a good idea doesn't particularly indicate whether or not it's what the rules say.
In any case, as a DM allowing what you're proposing means your players retain a huge amount of TPH even when Concentration is broken or the spell's Duration expires. I don't think that's a good idea, that's all.
Whether something is a good idea doesn't particularly indicate whether or not it's what the rules say.
If you can read it two ways, but one way is busted (good or bad), that's probably not the intended reading.
By the reading you are arguing, you can polymorph someone into a Giant Ape (CR 7) and dismiss the spell to retain 157 temporary hit points all day. By contrast, up casting False Life to 4th gives 2d4 + 19 (average 26). Power Word: Fortify grants only 120 Temporary Hit Points (they can be split across up to 6 targets, but they can also just be applied to one) and this is a spell 3 levels higher than Polymorph and does nothing other than give the target(s) Temporary Hit Points. When your party can cast level 7 spells, you can Polymorph into a Sperm Whale (CR 8) for 189 Temporary Hit Points or a Huge Giant Crab* (CR 8) for 161 Temporary Hit Points.
The reading that Polymorph's Temporary Hit Points persist longer than the form is busted when compared to other sources of Temporary Hit Points. It would be a better source of Temporary Hit Points than spells that are dedicated to giving Temporary Hit Points.
* As silly as a Crab that is Huge and Giant sounds. It appears to be based on the Tasmanian Giant Grab and made Huge. Taking out the real world regional reference, we have a Huge Giant Crab.
@TarodNet The rules for Temporary Hit Points aren't a part of the spell, so there's no reason for them to be void when the spell ends unless specifically stated otherwise. There's no "specific" here to override the "general" THP rules.
The Temporary Hit Points granted by the spell are part of its effects and should end when Concentration is broken or the spell's Duration expires.
The THP is not an effect of Polymorph, or False Life, or Heroism, or any other spell that grants it. The effect of the spell is to give you THP. When a spell changes something, it is not reverted by default when the spell ends; damage taken is not restored, objects destroyed are not repaired, etc. There is no reason to believe that THP is any different unless a rule specifically states otherwise. Back in the 2014 edition, it did specifically state otherwise is almost every case; but it doesn't now, and so it isn't otherwise anymore.
You are mixing Instantaneous and Concentration spells for your statement (note: your tooltips are from 2014 but this debate is about 2024 spells)
In any case, as a DM allowing what you're proposing means your players retain a huge amount of TPH even when Concentration is broken or the spell's Duration expires. I don't think that's a good idea, that's all.
Sorry, I'm new to the forums. How do I choose which version of the spell gets tooltipped?
We both agree that players don't get to keep the Polymorph THP. I, however, don't think it's because of the spell ending, but rather the specific behavior of this spell in particular. I think I've made the mechanics of that pretty clear in previous comments.
Sorry, I'm new to the forums. How do I choose which version of the spell gets tooltipped?
No problem at all, at least for me! ❤️ There's a thread about using tooltips depending on whether they refer to the 2014 or 2024 rules: How To Add Tooltips
We both agree that players don't get to keep the Polymorph THP. I, however, don't think it's because of the spell ending, but rather the specific behavior of this spell in particular. I think I've made the mechanics of that pretty clear in previous comments.
Sure, your arguments were clear! Thanks for the conversation! :)
Some people are arguing that you don't lose TBH because they think the TBH general rule is more specific. Others think that because the general rule isn't even a time about magic but includes all sources in general, the TBH general rule should be considered general and be superseded by rules related to magic and the specific rule of the subcategorie of magic talked about, specifying that all effects end when duration/concentration does.
Some people are arguing that you don't lose TBH because they separate what a spell does and what it leaves behind. Thinking of it as ordinary hp or created water. Others think this is refuted by the PHB during of TBH, stating it is very different that ordinary HP. I personally think it's a misunderstanding of how radically different Duration Instant spells work compared to a spells with duration. (Concentration is a subcategory of duration)
Some people argue that because they removed every single instance specifying TBH disappears have been removed they're clearly intended to stay. Others argue that the whole point of the removal is because the duration/concentration rules are covering it.
I personally argue that if something seems broken, the first think too be inspected for cracks is your own understanding of it. I am positively surprised of how easily understood and robust this rule is and will actually give 2024 a try because of it.
RAW and RAI is now the same with the very needed errata lol
I'm not sure they meant to have it so you can polymorph a 500 hp monster into a 1 hp worm and it won't polymorph back until you do 501 damage to the worm, but it's a 9th level spell, I can tolerate it being a save or die.
RAW and RAI is now the same with the very needed errata lol
I'm not sure they meant to have it so you can polymorph a 500 hp monster into a 1 hp worm and it won't polymorph back until you do 501 damage to the worm, but it's a 9th level spell, I can tolerate it being a save or die.
At least as a worm, it would be a monster easier to kill.
RAW and RAI is now the same with the very needed errata lol
I'm not sure they meant to have it so you can polymorph a 500 hp monster into a 1 hp worm and it won't polymorph back until you do 501 damage to the worm, but it's a 9th level spell, I can tolerate it being a save or die.
Maybe they did to avoid the gimmicks with spells that work based on a creatures current hit points or them being dropped to 0.
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Temporary hit points are not part of your stat block (an ability that grants tHP might be, but the tHP themselves are not).
The Temporary Hit Points granted by the spell are part of its effects and should end when Concentration is broken or the spell's Duration expires.
Please quote or link to the entire spell, in this case, Grease.
Grease creates a area covered by grease for the duration. The area is difficult terrain for the duration. In addition, it is slippery at creatures in the area must make a save or fall prone. This is an effect of the summoned Grease, not the spell.
If a creature damages another creature while affected by Confusion, that damage is not an effect of the spell and is not subject to the spell's duration.
Edited to test adding tooltips
How to add Tooltips.
The general rule for Temporary Hit Points exists for more than just one spell, though. There are two General Feats (Chef and Inspiring Leader) which rely on it. And there are class and subclass features which also grant them; some of which I'll list below:
And literally everyone else can acquire the False Life spell via class progression. And most all of these I would call instantaneous effects that don't expire. They're just things the players can do.
Ah, valid point, though I suspect wild shape is similar to polymorph in that the tHP were intended to go away when the wild shape ended.
That's a possibility. But it's only 2-20 THP, 6-60 if their subclass is Circle of the Moon, and losing it all doesn't force them back to their humanoid form.
I'd say the THP you gain while shape-shifted are lost when you return to your normal form. I know this is debatable, but the way I read the feature, its rules apply only while you're in a form.
The THP is not an effect of Polymorph, or False Life, or Heroism, or any other spell that grants it. The effect of the spell is to give you THP. When a spell changes something, it is not reverted by default when the spell ends; damage taken is not restored, objects destroyed are not repaired, etc. There is no reason to believe that THP is any different unless a rule specifically states otherwise. Back in the 2014 edition, it did specifically state otherwise is almost every case; but it doesn't now, and so it isn't otherwise anymore.
Yes, this is something I've considered. Here's a possibly important detail: Polymorph doesn't replace the player's stat block (players don't even get one) but rather your game statistics. That's a broad category without a precise definition, but I don't believe it's a stretch to include your amount of Temporary Hit Points in it. Still, this is the detail I'm most uncertain about.
Would max hp reduction be removed? It seems directly comparable.
Incidentally, here's a combo I hadn't thought of before: cast polymorph on a warlock who has cast armor of agathys, and suddenly to neutralize it you need to plow through the giant tHP total of a polymorph, instead of the mere 20 hp it would be expected to grant at the level when polymorph is available.
You are mixing Instantaneous and Concentration spells for your statement (note: your tooltips are from 2014 but this debate is about 2024 spells)
In any case, as a DM allowing what you're proposing means your players retain a huge amount of TPH even when Concentration is broken or the spell's Duration expires. I don't think that's a good idea, that's all.
Whether something is a good idea doesn't particularly indicate whether or not it's what the rules say.
If you can read it two ways, but one way is busted (good or bad), that's probably not the intended reading.
By the reading you are arguing, you can polymorph someone into a Giant Ape (CR 7) and dismiss the spell to retain 157 temporary hit points all day. By contrast, up casting False Life to 4th gives 2d4 + 19 (average 26). Power Word: Fortify grants only 120 Temporary Hit Points (they can be split across up to 6 targets, but they can also just be applied to one) and this is a spell 3 levels higher than Polymorph and does nothing other than give the target(s) Temporary Hit Points. When your party can cast level 7 spells, you can Polymorph into a Sperm Whale (CR 8) for 189 Temporary Hit Points or a Huge Giant Crab* (CR 8) for 161 Temporary Hit Points.
The reading that Polymorph's Temporary Hit Points persist longer than the form is busted when compared to other sources of Temporary Hit Points. It would be a better source of Temporary Hit Points than spells that are dedicated to giving Temporary Hit Points.
* As silly as a Crab that is Huge and Giant sounds. It appears to be based on the Tasmanian Giant Grab and made Huge. Taking out the real world regional reference, we have a Huge Giant Crab.
How to add Tooltips.
Sorry, I'm new to the forums. How do I choose which version of the spell gets tooltipped?
We both agree that players don't get to keep the Polymorph THP. I, however, don't think it's because of the spell ending, but rather the specific behavior of this spell in particular. I think I've made the mechanics of that pretty clear in previous comments.
No problem at all, at least for me! ❤️ There's a thread about using tooltips depending on whether they refer to the 2014 or 2024 rules: How To Add Tooltips
Sure, your arguments were clear! Thanks for the conversation! :)
To summarize:
Some people are arguing that you don't lose TBH because they think the TBH general rule is more specific. Others think that because the general rule isn't even a time about magic but includes all sources in general, the TBH general rule should be considered general and be superseded by rules related to magic and the specific rule of the subcategorie of magic talked about, specifying that all effects end when duration/concentration does.
Some people are arguing that you don't lose TBH because they separate what a spell does and what it leaves behind. Thinking of it as ordinary hp or created water. Others think this is refuted by the PHB during of TBH, stating it is very different that ordinary HP. I personally think it's a misunderstanding of how radically different Duration Instant spells work compared to a spells with duration. (Concentration is a subcategory of duration)
Some people argue that because they removed every single instance specifying TBH disappears have been removed they're clearly intended to stay. Others argue that the whole point of the removal is because the duration/concentration rules are covering it.
I personally argue that if something seems broken, the first think too be inspected for cracks is your own understanding of it. I am positively surprised of how easily understood and robust this rule is and will actually give 2024 a try because of it.
RAW and RAI is now the same with the very needed errata lol
I'm not sure they meant to have it so you can polymorph a 500 hp monster into a 1 hp worm and it won't polymorph back until you do 501 damage to the worm, but it's a 9th level spell, I can tolerate it being a save or die.
At least as a worm, it would be a monster easier to kill.
Maybe they did to avoid the gimmicks with spells that work based on a creatures current hit points or them being dropped to 0.