The polymorph spell in both 2014 and 2024 is virtually identical with one exception: hit points of the assumed form. In the 2014 rules, "the target assumes the hit points of its new form."
In the 2024 rules, "the target gains a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to the Hit Points of the Beast form."
In both versions, if the hit points of the assumed form are brought to zero, the target reverts to the normal form.
In terms of actual game play and outcomes, this is the same thing, yes? I'm having a hard time see a pro/con of the 2024 wording vs the 2014 wording. In both instances, the target gets a hit point buff equal to the new form, and if that pool of HP reaches zero, they revert. Does the buff being Temporary Hit Points add or take anything away in practice?
It means they can't benefit from other sources of temp HP, nor can the new form be healed. However, depending on wording, other sources of temp HP may be able to prolong the effect.
RAW per 2014 doesn't say. In 2024, it affects original form HP.
RAW per 2014 is vague, and we've seen contradictory answers to that question on twitter. In 2024, you clearly don't die by having temp HP reduced to zero.
in 2014, there was absolutely overflow ("If it reverts as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form."). In 2024 the answer is "your resistances at the time you took damage".
RAW per 2014 doesn't say. In 2024, it affects original form HP.
RAW per 2014 is vague, and we've seen contradictory answers to that question on twitter. In 2024, you clearly don't die by having temp HP reduced to zero.
in 2014, there was absolutely overflow ("If it reverts as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form."). In 2024 the answer is "your resistances at the time you took damage".
Oh, OK! Thanks a lot! I don't have the spell's text, so it's great to understand all of this for the new spell that's coming!
Mental note: read the original post's text more carefully.
If you get hit by an attack that is instant kill at 0 hp (e.g. disintegrate) and it reduces your beast form to 0 hp, do you die?
If your resistances are different when polymorphed than in your normal form, and you get reduced to 0 hp, how do resistances apply to the overflow?
They are temporary hit points. Disintegrate requires you to be at 0hp. If you have 100 temp HP and 200 HP and get hit with disintegrate you would need to take 300 HP to drop to 0 hp. Which works at normal. 0 temp HP is 200 HP.
As for the last point im going to assume that you get hit and your resistance halves the damage. You take the new halved damage and the check to see if you have temp HP or not doesn't happen until you are done talking the damage.
There is no overflow anymore. The concept is gone. If you take 250 damage it would half to 125 and leave you with 75 HP. At which point you would lose the polymorph form because you no longer have temp HP. You don't do any action or event while recording hp.
Nope. That is a bad reading of the spell, and the 2024 Concentration rules specifically say spell effects end when concentration is lost or ended. The temp HP is an effect gained by the spell due to the Beast form you take, so it is tied to the Concentration rules. On his video, Pack Tactics completely ignores Concentration rules to make this ruling, and it's obviously in bad faith (intentional).
Yep, then there is CH7 of the 2024 books, which goes into how casting spells work, and it breaks spell functions separately, including duration:
Duration
A spell’s duration is the length of time the spell persists after it is cast. A duration typically takes one of the following forms:
Concentration. A duration that requires Concentration follows the Concentration rules (see the rules glossary).
Instantaneous. An instantaneous duration means the spell’s magic appears only for a moment and then disappears.
Time Span. A duration that provides a time span specifies how long the spell lasts in rounds, minutes, hours, or the like. For example, a Duration entry might say “1 minute,” meaning the spell ends after 1 minute has passed. While a time-span spell that you cast is ongoing, you can dismiss it (no action required) if you don’t have the Incapacitated condition.
Yep, then there is CH7 of the 2024 books, which goes into how casting spells work, and it breaks spell functions separately, including duration:
Duration
A spell’s duration is the length of time the spell persists after it is cast. A duration typically takes one of the following forms:
Concentration. A duration that requires Concentration follows the Concentration rules (see the rules glossary).
Instantaneous. An instantaneous duration means the spell’s magic appears only for a moment and then disappears.
Time Span. A duration that provides a time span specifies how long the spell lasts in rounds, minutes, hours, or the like. For example, a Duration entry might say “1 minute,” meaning the spell ends after 1 minute has passed. While a time-span spell that you cast is ongoing, you can dismiss it (no action required) if you don’t have the Incapacitated condition.
I've been thinking about this more, and read through some of his comments as well on the video where some people pointed out the concentration rules. However I still think he has a point about that the exceptions supersede general rules. The temporary hit points duration would be the exception here, because it says explicitly otherwise and is specific to temporary hit point duration.
Yep, then there is CH7 of the 2024 books, which goes into how casting spells work, and it breaks spell functions separately, including duration:
Duration
A spell’s duration is the length of time the spell persists after it is cast. A duration typically takes one of the following forms:
Concentration. A duration that requires Concentration follows the Concentration rules (see the rules glossary).
Instantaneous. An instantaneous duration means the spell’s magic appears only for a moment and then disappears.
Time Span. A duration that provides a time span specifies how long the spell lasts in rounds, minutes, hours, or the like. For example, a Duration entry might say “1 minute,” meaning the spell ends after 1 minute has passed. While a time-span spell that you cast is ongoing, you can dismiss it (no action required) if you don’t have the Incapacitated condition.
I've been thinking about this more, and read through some of his comments as well on the video where some people pointed out the concentration rules. However I still think he has a point about that the exceptions supersede general rules. The temporary hit points duration would be the exception here, because it says explicitly otherwise and is specific to temporary hit point duration.
The temp HP rules on CH1 are the general rules that govern how they work. However, Concentration rules are specific to the function of spells that require concentration. We can sit there arguing about which's specific or general, but it doesn't change the fact that the temp HP is tied to a spell that follows Concentration rules, which specifically say that spells with Duration that requires concentration follow the Concentration rules. Pack Tactics' interpretation is trying to poke at the interaction between rules to create an exploit between them, which is by definition, bad faith reading
Also, this has also been clarified by the mods in the FDB Discord, and although not official, most mods are longtime DMs
Yep, then there is CH7 of the 2024 books, which goes into how casting spells work, and it breaks spell functions separately, including duration:
Duration
A spell’s duration is the length of time the spell persists after it is cast. A duration typically takes one of the following forms:
Concentration. A duration that requires Concentration follows the Concentration rules (see the rules glossary).
Instantaneous. An instantaneous duration means the spell’s magic appears only for a moment and then disappears.
Time Span. A duration that provides a time span specifies how long the spell lasts in rounds, minutes, hours, or the like. For example, a Duration entry might say “1 minute,” meaning the spell ends after 1 minute has passed. While a time-span spell that you cast is ongoing, you can dismiss it (no action required) if you don’t have the Incapacitated condition.
I've been thinking about this more, and read through some of his comments as well on the video where some people pointed out the concentration rules. However I still think he has a point about that the exceptions supersede general rules. The temporary hit points duration would be the exception here, because it says explicitly otherwise and is specific to temporary hit point duration.
The temp HP rules on CH1 are the general rules that govern how they work. However, Concentration rules are specific to the function of spells that require concentration. We can sit there arguing about which's specific or general, but it doesn't change the fact that the temp HP is tied to a spell that follows Concentration rules, which specifically say that spells with Duration that requires concentration follow the Concentration rules. Pack Tactics' interpretation is trying to poke at the interaction between rules to create an exploit between them, which is by definition, bad faith reading
Also, this has also been clarified by the mods in the FDB Discord, and although not official, most mods are longtime DMs
I understand, but I believe those interpretations from other DMs would be RAI. But RAW, there are multiple duration rules in play here, concentration duration and temporary hit point duration. Polymorph is a concentration spell, and thus is under it's rule. The spell also provides temporary hit points, which has it's own duration rule. Yes, the temporary hit points come as a effect of the spell, but since temporary hit points explicitly has it's own duration rules, that would therefore be the specific exception.
I think we need a official statement of which rule is considered specific or an errata on temporary hit points duration.
And the duration rules for temp HP are superseded by the Concentration rules because the spell effects are contingent on this to maintain the effect. In this case, Concentration is the specific rule that trumps.
By your interpretation (and Pack Tactics), any spell that requires Concentration and provides temp HP can just ignore the concentration rule, which is definitely not how this is intended. You only arrive at that interpretation if you're reading the rules in bad faith. Btw, there's only a few spells in the game that provide temp HP and also require Concentration.
CH1 provides general rules of how temp HP works--including duration--because there are more sources that give the effect than just spells, like class features, subclass features, magic items, potions, etc.. However, CH7 has the clause that a spell with duration that requires concentration follows Concentration rules, which specify that effects given by a spell are lost if Concentration ends. This is a specific rule for these spells, so this supercedes other rules in the game. Unless the spell itself indicated that the effects remain after losing concentration (like True Polymorph), then all spell effects drop when Concentration ends.
I think the issue where this comes from is that half of the duration rules for temp hp is removed in 2024, in 2014, the whole sentence is "Unless a feature that grants you temporary hit points has a duration, they last until they’re depleted or you finish a long rest."
But now, it is only "Temporary Hit Points last until they’re depleted or you finish a Long Rest (see the rules glossary)."
The concentration spell duration would apply to the spell features of polymorph that do not have it's own duration. However, temporary hit points does not since it now has it's own specific duration that applies over the concentration duration since this rule is specific to temporary hit points. The spell grants the target temporary hit points, which has it's own duration rule and does not care where they come from anymore, and it's clear that they last "until they’re depleted or you finish a Long Rest"
I don't try to read it in bad faith, but just at what is literally written. Not writing this to exploit it either, since I DM for my own game. If anything I am disappointed that the following section in temporary hp rules "Unless a feature that grants you temporary hit points has a duration," is removed in 2024.
I think the issue where this comes from is that half of the duration rules for temp hp is removed in 2024, in 2014, the whole sentence is "Unless a feature that grants you temporary hit points has a duration, they last until they’re depleted or you finish a long rest."
But now, it is only "Temporary Hit Points last until they’re depleted or you finish a Long Rest (see the rules glossary)."
The concentration spell duration would apply to the spell features of polymorph that do not have it's own duration. However, temporary hit points does not since it now has it's own specific duration that applies over the concentration duration since this rule is specific to temporary hit points. The spell grants the target temporary hit points, which has it's own duration rule and does not care where they come from anymore, and it's clear that they last "until they’re depleted or you finish a Long Rest"
I don't try to read it in bad faith, but just at what is literally written. Not writing this to exploit it either, since I DM for my own game. If anything I am disappointed that the following section in temporary hp rules "Unless a feature that grants you temporary hit points has a duration," is removed in 2024.
Not gonna lie, but you're cherry-picking which effects to end here. You said it yourself: specific beats general, and Concentration rules is specific to spells that have it as their duration. Moreover, CH7 says a "The effects of a spell are detailed after its duration entry. Those details present exactly what the spell does, which ignores mundane physical laws", so they all follow the Concentration rules. While true that the rules for temp HP have a duration that doesn't care where they come from, they are the result of a Concentration spell. You are willfully ignoring the second because of the first one. A better way to read the rules on CH1 is that temp HP "generally" last until depleted or you finish a Long Rest.
Obviously you're the DM in your game and can do what you want, but by your logic I can do the same with other spells that give temp HP and require Concentration to give myself massive pools of temp HP without maintaining Concentration. Moreover, I can then do this with Armor of Agathys to then give myself a massive pool of Temp HP and a flat damage bonus every time I get hit in melee, specially if I upcast AoA past level 5. And BTW, the interaction with AoA is confirmed by JC to be intended.
Edit: Last thing I'm gonna say on the topic. The temp HP is an effect gained by the Beast Form you choose as part of the spell, and that form is lost if Concentration ends, so the temp HP go away when the Beast Form does.
Yes, obviously it would be better if the rule mentioned "generally" but it does not. I think it's quite clear that the intention is that temporary hp from polymorphs drop from the concentration duration rules, but the current RAW does not.
This question isn't really related to the rules for concentration. It's a question of whether or not this particular consequence of the spell persists beyond the duration of the spell.
Almost always, the spell effect will include in its description that it lasts "for the duration".
In this case, one of the things that the Polymorph spell does is that it causes a creature to shape-shift "for the duration". The rules for shape-shift, which is a term that appears in the glossary, state that whatever game element causes the shape-shift will specify what exactly happens to the creature as part of the shape-shift process.
So, in the case of the polymorph spell, the question is whether or not the granted temporary HP, which occurs in a separate paragraph than where the shape-shift is described, is actually also part of the shape-shift process.
OR, does the polymorph spell cause a shape-shift AND ALSO a gain of temporary HP. The shape-shift clearly occurs "for the duration". The temporary HP does not say that it is gained "for the duration" of the spell. The only way that this temporary HP would be lost upon losing concentration on the spell is if this temporary HP gain is considered to be a part of the shape-shift process, and not just one of the (other) effects of the polymorph spell.
As written, it sort of looks like the latter although surely the RAI is the former. Because the line break for the new paragraph occurs before the temp HP sentence instead of just after it, a case can be made that the shape-shift and the temp HP are two separate effects, only one of which lasts "for the duration".
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The polymorph spell in both 2014 and 2024 is virtually identical with one exception: hit points of the assumed form. In the 2014 rules, "the target assumes the hit points of its new form."
In the 2024 rules, "the target gains a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to the Hit Points of the Beast form."
In both versions, if the hit points of the assumed form are brought to zero, the target reverts to the normal form.
In terms of actual game play and outcomes, this is the same thing, yes? I'm having a hard time see a pro/con of the 2024 wording vs the 2014 wording. In both instances, the target gets a hit point buff equal to the new form, and if that pool of HP reaches zero, they revert. Does the buff being Temporary Hit Points add or take anything away in practice?
It means they can't benefit from other sources of temp HP, nor can the new form be healed. However, depending on wording, other sources of temp HP may be able to prolong the effect.
On the other hand, it's mechanically cleaner.
It eliminates certain unclear cases, such as:
Thanks, both of you. Makes complete sense.
The actual buff itself remains the same, but the rules regarding the buff are cleaner and clearer.
Please, let me guess the answers...
Oh, OK! Thanks a lot! I don't have the spell's text, so it's great to understand all of this for the new spell that's coming!
Mental note: read the original post's text more carefully.
They are temporary hit points. Disintegrate requires you to be at 0hp. If you have 100 temp HP and 200 HP and get hit with disintegrate you would need to take 300 HP to drop to 0 hp. Which works at normal. 0 temp HP is 200 HP.
As for the last point im going to assume that you get hit and your resistance halves the damage. You take the new halved damage and the check to see if you have temp HP or not doesn't happen until you are done talking the damage.
There is no overflow anymore. The concept is gone. If you take 250 damage it would half to 125 and leave you with 75 HP. At which point you would lose the polymorph form because you no longer have temp HP. You don't do any action or event while recording hp.
Why isn't this being discussed about the new temp hp rules? https://youtu.be/L6Rp73mglIA?si=W1jz-szh1BDbwGy3
Is this intentional?
Nope. That is a bad reading of the spell, and the 2024 Concentration rules specifically say spell effects end when concentration is lost or ended. The temp HP is an effect gained by the spell due to the Beast form you take, so it is tied to the Concentration rules. On his video, Pack Tactics completely ignores Concentration rules to make this ruling, and it's obviously in bad faith (intentional).
Oh that's a good point. The temp hp is definitely an effect from the spell
Yep, then there is CH7 of the 2024 books, which goes into how casting spells work, and it breaks spell functions separately, including duration:
I've been thinking about this more, and read through some of his comments as well on the video where some people pointed out the concentration rules. However I still think he has a point about that the exceptions supersede general rules. The temporary hit points duration would be the exception here, because it says explicitly otherwise and is specific to temporary hit point duration.
The temp HP rules on CH1 are the general rules that govern how they work. However, Concentration rules are specific to the function of spells that require concentration. We can sit there arguing about which's specific or general, but it doesn't change the fact that the temp HP is tied to a spell that follows Concentration rules, which specifically say that spells with Duration that requires concentration follow the Concentration rules. Pack Tactics' interpretation is trying to poke at the interaction between rules to create an exploit between them, which is by definition, bad faith reading
Also, this has also been clarified by the mods in the FDB Discord, and although not official, most mods are longtime DMs
I understand, but I believe those interpretations from other DMs would be RAI. But RAW, there are multiple duration rules in play here, concentration duration and temporary hit point duration. Polymorph is a concentration spell, and thus is under it's rule. The spell also provides temporary hit points, which has it's own duration rule. Yes, the temporary hit points come as a effect of the spell, but since temporary hit points explicitly has it's own duration rules, that would therefore be the specific exception.
I think we need a official statement of which rule is considered specific or an errata on temporary hit points duration.
And the duration rules for temp HP are superseded by the Concentration rules because the spell effects are contingent on this to maintain the effect. In this case, Concentration is the specific rule that trumps.
By your interpretation (and Pack Tactics), any spell that requires Concentration and provides temp HP can just ignore the concentration rule, which is definitely not how this is intended. You only arrive at that interpretation if you're reading the rules in bad faith. Btw, there's only a few spells in the game that provide temp HP and also require Concentration.
CH1 provides general rules of how temp HP works--including duration--because there are more sources that give the effect than just spells, like class features, subclass features, magic items, potions, etc.. However, CH7 has the clause that a spell with duration that requires concentration follows Concentration rules, which specify that effects given by a spell are lost if Concentration ends. This is a specific rule for these spells, so this supercedes other rules in the game. Unless the spell itself indicated that the effects remain after losing concentration (like True Polymorph), then all spell effects drop when Concentration ends.
I think the issue where this comes from is that half of the duration rules for temp hp is removed in 2024, in 2014, the whole sentence is "Unless a feature that grants you temporary hit points has a duration, they last until they’re depleted or you finish a long rest."
But now, it is only "Temporary Hit Points last until they’re depleted or you finish a Long Rest (see the rules glossary)."
The concentration spell duration would apply to the spell features of polymorph that do not have it's own duration. However, temporary hit points does not since it now has it's own specific duration that applies over the concentration duration since this rule is specific to temporary hit points. The spell grants the target temporary hit points, which has it's own duration rule and does not care where they come from anymore, and it's clear that they last "until they’re depleted or you finish a Long Rest"
I don't try to read it in bad faith, but just at what is literally written. Not writing this to exploit it either, since I DM for my own game. If anything I am disappointed that the following section in temporary hp rules "Unless a feature that grants you temporary hit points has a duration," is removed in 2024.
Not gonna lie, but you're cherry-picking which effects to end here. You said it yourself: specific beats general, and Concentration rules is specific to spells that have it as their duration. Moreover, CH7 says a "The effects of a spell are detailed after its duration entry. Those details present exactly what the spell does, which ignores mundane physical laws", so they all follow the Concentration rules. While true that the rules for temp HP have a duration that doesn't care where they come from, they are the result of a Concentration spell. You are willfully ignoring the second because of the first one. A better way to read the rules on CH1 is that temp HP "generally" last until depleted or you finish a Long Rest.
Obviously you're the DM in your game and can do what you want, but by your logic I can do the same with other spells that give temp HP and require Concentration to give myself massive pools of temp HP without maintaining Concentration. Moreover, I can then do this with Armor of Agathys to then give myself a massive pool of Temp HP and a flat damage bonus every time I get hit in melee, specially if I upcast AoA past level 5. And BTW, the interaction with AoA is confirmed by JC to be intended.
Edit: Last thing I'm gonna say on the topic. The temp HP is an effect gained by the Beast Form you choose as part of the spell, and that form is lost if Concentration ends, so the temp HP go away when the Beast Form does.
Yes, obviously it would be better if the rule mentioned "generally" but it does not. I think it's quite clear that the intention is that temporary hp from polymorphs drop from the concentration duration rules, but the current RAW does not.
This question isn't really related to the rules for concentration. It's a question of whether or not this particular consequence of the spell persists beyond the duration of the spell.
Almost always, the spell effect will include in its description that it lasts "for the duration".
In this case, one of the things that the Polymorph spell does is that it causes a creature to shape-shift "for the duration". The rules for shape-shift, which is a term that appears in the glossary, state that whatever game element causes the shape-shift will specify what exactly happens to the creature as part of the shape-shift process.
So, in the case of the polymorph spell, the question is whether or not the granted temporary HP, which occurs in a separate paragraph than where the shape-shift is described, is actually also part of the shape-shift process.
OR, does the polymorph spell cause a shape-shift AND ALSO a gain of temporary HP. The shape-shift clearly occurs "for the duration". The temporary HP does not say that it is gained "for the duration" of the spell. The only way that this temporary HP would be lost upon losing concentration on the spell is if this temporary HP gain is considered to be a part of the shape-shift process, and not just one of the (other) effects of the polymorph spell.
As written, it sort of looks like the latter although surely the RAI is the former. Because the line break for the new paragraph occurs before the temp HP sentence instead of just after it, a case can be made that the shape-shift and the temp HP are two separate effects, only one of which lasts "for the duration".