As for my suggestion resulting in a rogue who successfully hides becoming "impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense" . . . YES, exactly! This IS TRUE of hidden creatures! It was true in 2014 and it should still be true in 2024. You can't see a hidden creature who is hiding.
You can make a Perception (Vision) roll to find a hiding character. A hidden character isn't impossible to see -- they are just currently not seen.
So, is the invisible spell missing a section that says you are in a heavily obscured area? (That use to be part of the condition) Or have I vastly misinterpreted something?
To answer your original question of "Is the Invisibility spell (2024) missing something?":
the answer is that it's not really the spell that's missing something, it's that the Invisible Condition itself is missing a critical statement that existed all the way through the playtesting and then was inexplicably removed at the last moment before publication. In 2014, that statement was phrased like this:
"An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense."
All that has to happen is for this to be put back into the Invisible Condition and everything about this new design would function properly.
This would have to be combined with the interpretation that a hidden creature can only "have" the Invisible Condition while he is hidden (duh). In other words, a successful stealth check should expire once you are no longer hiding -- this was more explicitly obvious in the 2014 rules but is merely just implied in the 2024 rules. You only have the condition "on" a successful stealth check (that stealth check must actually exist, unexpired). In my opinion it already does work this way, but perhaps this could be tweaked to become a bit more explicit so that there are less arguments about that point.
I disagree with this because adding ""An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense." to the Invisible Condition would result in a rogue who successfully hides becoming "impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense."
Hiding grants the Invisible Condition. In order to hide, a creature makes a stealth roll which must be higher than a DC 15. This number rolled becomes the DC for any search checks for a creature that is hiding.
IF a creature is hiding AND your proposed modification to the Invisible Condition was added then a "hidden" creature with a high enough stealth roll could walk through a crowd of people who were all searching for them and could not be seen (all they need is a high enough stealth roll which is easy enough for a rogue with expertise, high dex and reliable talent), even though there is nothing to hide behind and no cover, because the Invisible Condition made them impossible to see when all the rogue did was duck behind a tree to hide and then later step out into view ... but now tagged with the "Invisible Condition" from successfully hiding - which with your suggestion makes them impossible to see.
Personally, that is not how I will ever run hiding. In my opinion, hiding is a skill, a mundane ability that allows the creature to take advantage of cover to remain unnoticed. It doesn't make them "impossible to be seen without the aid of magic or a special sense". So, as long as WotC chooses to use the Invisible Condition for both the inivisibility spell AND the hidden condition, then, in my opinion, your suggested addition to the Invisible Condition makes no sense to me.
P.S. Your suggestion is fine if the Invisible Condition only applied to effects that actually made the affected creature invisible. Hiding does not make an affected creature invisible, it makes them hidden, so I don't agree with your suggested revision. :)
It looks like you missed a lot of what I said in my previous post, especially the "super-duper important" parts.
As for my suggestion resulting in a rogue who successfully hides becoming "impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense" . . . YES, exactly! This IS TRUE of hidden creatures! It was true in 2014 and it should still be true in 2024. You can't see a hidden creature who is hiding. That's the whole point of hiding. You would need a special sense to do so. The critical point here is that the creature is actually hiding!
As for the argument that "IF a creature is hiding AND your proposed modification to the Invisible Condition was added then a "hidden" creature with a high enough stealth roll could walk through a crowd of people who were all searching for them and could not be seen" . . . that's where you've missed the super-duper important part.
This really is VERY important. This new system doesn't work at all otherwise. This entire system only functions correctly if we have the understanding that a hidden creature is only hidden while they are hiding. What I've just said there probably deserves a Font Size of 100 but I find it obnoxious when people do that, so I won't use that tool to emphasize the point. But it really does need to be emphasized. It's incredibly important.
When you use the phrase "but now tagged with the "Invisible Condition" from successfully hiding" that seems to indicate to me that you believe that this is a permanent and unconditional acquisition of the Condition. I disagree extremely strongly with that. The particular way that that section is written was extremely intentional. You do not "gain" the condition or "acquire" the condition or "become afflicted with" the Condition. Instead, you "have" the condition "on" a successful check. It's both temporary and conditional on the existence of a successful check. The check provides an ongoing indicator for how well hidden you are while you are hiding. In other words, there are prerequisites that must be in place to attempt to hide. These prerequisites are what allows you to become concealed enough to try to hide in the first place. The stealth check that you make persists through time, so that check only relates to how well hidden you are while these prerequisites remain in place. Nothing else makes any sense for how the stealth checks function. Implicitly, that check no longer exists if you stop hiding. If you make a stealth check and hide for a while . . . then you stop hiding and you spend several weeks doing other things, and then you decide that you want to Hide again . . . you must roll a new stealth check. That other stealth check does not apply to this new effort and in fact it ceased to exist weeks ago. While there is no active stealth check in existence it is impossible to have the Condition via the Hiding mechanic. That's because the Hide Action makes a point to write that mechanic in a very specific way: you "have" the condition "on" a successful check. This is just another way of saying that as long as you remain successfully hidden (because the same stealth check is still active) then you have the Condition. The use of the word "have" here is very important in discerning the proper meaning.
As a consequence of this hiding mechanic, if I move my position so that I now have line of sight on you then you are no longer hidden (because the prerequisites are no longer met), which causes your stealth check to expire and therefore you no longer have the Condition. Because of that, I can now see you without magic or special senses. If instead you have the Condition as a consequence of the Invisibility spell, then you would not lose the Condition in this way because it is not tied to a successful ongoing stealth check. In that case, even if I moved right in front of you I would not be able to see you (assuming that the Condition were fixed to actually make a creature invisible).
Although it's all a bit clunky and unclear, this design really should function. They just forgot to define the Invisible Condition as something that causes invisibility.
I think I have to wait to see the text on hiding in the 2024 rule book.
Your statement is that "a hidden creature is only hidden while they are hiding. " which I agree with. You seem to believe that a creature that has gained the Invisible Condition by making a successful stealth roll will automatically lose it if the conditions required for the original stealth roll (3/4 or total cover) are no longer met. i.e. that a creature can no longer be hiding when they do not have the pre-requisites needed to make the original hiding roll. You seem to think that the rules state that hiding ends automatically when a creature no longer qualifies for making a stealth check.
However, based on what I have seen of the rules this is not the case. The 2024 rules on hiding seem to state that the Invisible Condition is lost IF the creature is "found". The rules don't seem to state that the Invisible Condition is lost if the pre-requisites required for the original stealth roll are no longer met. So, as long as the character says they are hiding .. it falls on the DM to say to the player "No, you can't hide anymore because the circumstances don't permit it, creatures can see you". Then the player says that the Invisible Condition, which the character acquired when they successfully hid, states that special senses or magic are now required to see them (if your suggested modification was included).
I believe that you are thinking of special senses like X-ray vision or tremorsense that could detect a creature through half or 3/4 cover.
Anyway, the rules do not say that creature is no longer hiding if another creature can see them clearly (they should) ... if the invisible condition contained the line you suggest then players would argue that since they have the invisible condition, they can't be seen AT ALL except by creatures with magic or special senses, so if they did step out into view of another creature then they STILL could not be seen because the Invisible Condition (which they still have due to the successful stealth check) means that they are impossible to see. Hiding itself defines how the condition can end and clearly seen is not one of them.
In addition, the Invisibility spell lacks a line stating that it actually makes a creature invisible and "impossible to see except due to magic or special senses".
Personally, I think that line needs to be added to the invisibility spell, not to the Invisible Condition, since then a hidden creature which acquires the Invisible Condition, could still be seen if they step into view of another creature. If the invisible condition stated that they became impossible to see then a player would state that 1) their character is still trying to hide/hiding and 2) the invisible condition makes them impossible to see even if they step out where they would normally be clearly seen - since that is what the rules would state.
Anyway, I can see that you are reading interpretations into the rules that should be common sense but which the rules actually fail to sufficiently clarify. For example, remaining hidden requires being behind 3/4 or total cover, if a creature no longer meets the requirements for making a stealth roll then they are no longer hiding ... which you seem to believe is already implied by the rules but which I don't think is sufficiently explicit in the rules I have seen so far.
As for my suggestion resulting in a rogue who successfully hides becoming "impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense" . . . YES, exactly! This IS TRUE of hidden creatures! It was true in 2014 and it should still be true in 2024. You can't see a hidden creature who is hiding.
You can make a Perception (Vision) roll to find a hiding character. A hidden character isn't impossible to see -- they are just currently not seen.
There's not really any reason to limit your Perception check to just Vision when trying to find a hidden creature. Perception checks take advantage of all of your senses. You might smell the hidden creatures, who knows?
Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses.
In terms of game mechanics, I can't really think of any scenario where the creature remains hidden, you do not move into a position where you gain some sort of line of sight, and now you can see them with a perception check. You probably notice the leaves of the bushes rustling, the monsters whispering, hear a branch breaking, you might notice a shadow of the monster in the background or rays of light radiating upwards from a shiny helmet. If that creature is in a heavily obscured area or is behind total cover and you have no line of sight, then you still wouldn't be able to see it even if you succeed on your perception check. You can definitely "find" it, but you still cannot see it. In the 2014 rules, this meant that you can now know its location without having to "guess the square". The 3/4 cover thing also wasn't a thing then -- I believe it was added as a way to deal with the issue of "popping out" to make an attack, although that's not spelled out in that way in the new rules. There are actually no scenarios that I can think of where a creature is not heavily obscured and has only 3/4 cover and yet there is no line of sight.
You seem to believe that a creature that has gained the Invisible Condition by making a successful stealth roll will automatically lose it if the conditions required for the original stealth roll (3/4 or total cover) are no longer met. i.e. that a creature can no longer be hiding when they do not have the pre-requisites needed to make the original hiding roll. You seem to think that the rules state that hiding ends automatically when a creature no longer qualifies for making a stealth check.
However, based on what I have seen of the rules this is not the case.
I do believe that the new rules say this. However, I do think that the wording should be tweaked to make this a lot clearer to people. The 2014 rules just came right out and used the phrase "Until you stop hiding . . .". In 2024, we don't have that clause. You sort of have to get there in bits and pieces now. Even though it's not explicit, why should we believe that a creature is still hidden when he has stopped hiding? That just doesn't make sense and it doesn't align with the rest of the mechanic. The stealth roll persists. This means that once the prerequisites are met, you can make the roll which will confirm that you are hidden in that moment. BUT, it's explicitly stated that you keep that roll for use as the DC for (potentially multiple) Search attempts by other creatures trying to find you with a Perception check. It follows that these checks would be made to find you if you are hidden and that that stealth roll only remains in effect while you are hidden. After all, if you hide, and then you stop hiding, and then you want to hide again later, you would be required to make a new roll for a new stealth check. So, at some point you must be no longer hidden and at that point your stealth check expires.
What it MEANS to be hidden in the first place is that you've sufficiently concealed your position from view such that you can attempt to hide from other creatures. This was all spelled out in the prerequisites. In order to maintain this stealth roll as your DC on an ongoing basis, it only makes sense that that roll only applies while you are hidden.
All of this is related to when you actually have the Condition as a Hidden creature. It's not written very clearly, but it's basically saying that you have the Condition while you are hidden. That's what makes it possible to even use the Invisible Condition for this purpose in the first place -- otherwise, it's just preposterous to call a creature invisible that isn't actually invisible. Once we realize that all of the prerequisites for becoming hidden in the first place are rules that make it so that we cannot be seen by normal means, then all of a sudden referring to such a creature as invisible while they are hidden becomes reasonable.
But none of this even comes close to working if we cannot recognize how the hiding mechanic works -- that you put yourself into a position to attempt to hide, then you make the attempt to hide, and you can then remain hidden by hanging onto that stealth roll value on an ongoing basis. But, logically, in order to remain hidden, you have to actually remain hidden. If you leave your hiding place and start walking around, you are not hiding any more.
It's sort of like if I were to make an attempt to swim across a pool -- then, at some point I decide to stand up on the bottom of the pool and start walking along the bottom of the pool. Maybe some friends join in, and we set up a volleyball net and we play a game in the pool. An hour later I cannot declare that I am still swimming and that I've been swimming the whole time. That wouldn't make any sense. I have stopped swimming and I have moved on to other activities that do not involve swimming. Should there be an explicit rule somewhere within the rules for swimming that specifies exactly when and how it should be determined that I am no longer swimming? I don't think so. These sorts of interactions with the environment are just a given -- you don't need a rule that says that.
The 2024 rules on hiding seem to state that the Invisible Condition is lost IF the creature is "found". The rules don't seem to state that the Invisible Condition is lost if the pre-requisites required for the original stealth roll are no longer met. So, as long as the character says they are hiding .. it falls on the DM to say to the player "No, you can't hide anymore because the circumstances don't permit it, creatures can see you". Then the player says that the Invisible Condition, which the character acquired when they successfully hid, states that special senses or magic are now required to see them (if your suggested modification was included).
The listed ways that the Condition can be lost "immediately" are related to how the Condition can be lost while the creature is hidden. None of those methods (loud sound, enemy finds you, attack roll, cast a verbal spell) are relevant to creatures that are not hiding (or are no longer hiding). As such, if there is an additional method of losing the Condition called "you are no longer hiding", it would not be listed in that "immediately" list of methods since those methods are only related to creatures that ARE hiding.
It's a subtle distinction, but the Condition doesn't really "end on you immediately" when you stop hiding. Instead, you just don't "have" the Condition. You only "have" the Condition when you are hiding.
Relying on the DM to decide that circumstances are no longer appropriate for hiding is one crude way to do it, but it's better to just realize that you cannot be hidden if the prerequisites are not met. If someone has line of sight on you, you cannot be hidden. In this case, it's better to think of that creature as "no longer hidden" rather than "found", because that avoids the question of how you were found by someone without special senses. If you are no longer hidden then that person doesn't need special senses.
Then the player says that the Invisible Condition, which the character acquired when they successfully hid, states that special senses or magic are now required to see them (if your suggested modification was included).
I really feel strongly that it's very important not to fall into this trap. The character does NOT "acquire" the Condition when they hide. The words in that section were chosen extremely carefully. Instead, the character is said to "have" the Condition "on" a successful check. In particular, the word "have" in this context is extremely important. It's temporary and conditional. You have it when and while you are hidden. That's how and why you have it. The act of hiding is an ongoing activity. It's not a snapshot moment in time when things are fully resolved in an instant and status effects are then permanently assigned. It's ongoing. You remain hidden until you are no longer hiding. You have the condition while you are hiding.
Anyway, the rules do not say that creature is no longer hiding if another creature can see them clearly (they should) ... if the invisible condition contained the line you suggest then players would argue that since they have the invisible condition, they can't be seen AT ALL except by creatures with magic or special senses, so if they did step out into view of another creature then they STILL could not be seen because the Invisible Condition (which they still have due to the successful stealth check) means that they are impossible to see. Hiding itself defines how the condition can end and clearly seen is not one of them.
No. That's the thing. There IS NO successful stealth check in that example. They stepped out into view. That stealth check is gone.
For example, if I attacked a creature 3 rounds ago, I cannot somehow use the result of that attack roll in combination with some feature that I want to use now in this moment. That attack roll is long gone. I am no longer attacking that creature, and I haven't been attacking that creature for a few rounds now.
If I am no longer hidden, I would have to make a whole new stealth check if I wanted to Hide again. While NOT hidden, I have no stealth roll. Any stealth roll that I may have previously made is long gone. Because of this, the Condition which relies on the existence of a successful stealth check is long gone as well. Since the character does not have the condition, he can now be seen without special senses. The player has no case. They stopped hiding.
Again, the Condition doesn't "end immediately" due to being clearly seen. That's not one of the methods for immediately ending the Condition on a hidden creature. Instead, being clearly seen means that you are no longer hidden, and if you are not hidden you don't have the condition.
In 2014, there was a rule in a separate area which stated:
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly
This was in the sidebar in Chapter 7, which may have been removed. But we won't know that until we all see the new rules in their entirety. My guess is that this was consolidated and replaced by the prerequisites given in the Hide Action which basically says the same thing but in different words -- basically you can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly. By extension, you are no longer hidden if a creature can see you clearly. I don't think that we need the rule to actually say that. In 2014 there was that clause that said "Until you stop hiding . . .", but really that was redundant. It should be obvious that I am no longer hidden if I stop hiding just like I am no longer swimming if I stop swimming or any other activity that I might be engaged in on an ongoing basis.
Personally, I think that line needs to be added to the invisibility spell, not to the Invisible Condition, since then a hidden creature which acquires the Invisible Condition, could still be seen if they step into view of another creature. If the invisible condition stated that they became impossible to see then a player would state that 1) their character is still trying to hide/hiding and 2) the invisible condition makes them impossible to see even if they step out where they would normally be clearly seen - since that is what the rules would state.
I mean, a player can state that, but they would be wrong on both counts. The character cannot be trying to hide in plain sight. Since they are not hidden, they would not have the Condition.
That's the logic that doesn't make sense to me. There's no such thing as a hidden creature that steps into view of another creature. That's a contradiction. If a creature steps into view of another creature, then they are not hidden, by definition. That's why it works just fine for the "invisibility clause" to just be put into the Condition. It's only meant to be applied to hidden creatures while they are hidden.
I completely agree with you that a lot of this really needs to be written more explicitly. As mentioned before by others, at least before we all knew how Invisibility was supposed to work. But now, with the hiding mechanic, there are at least 3 different interpretations for what people truly believe the RAI actually was -- that's when you know that the way that the rules were written was a failure and absolutely needs to be changed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
You can make a Perception (Vision) roll to find a hiding character. A hidden character isn't impossible to see -- they are just currently not seen.
I think I have to wait to see the text on hiding in the 2024 rule book.
Your statement is that "a hidden creature is only hidden while they are hiding. " which I agree with. You seem to believe that a creature that has gained the Invisible Condition by making a successful stealth roll will automatically lose it if the conditions required for the original stealth roll (3/4 or total cover) are no longer met. i.e. that a creature can no longer be hiding when they do not have the pre-requisites needed to make the original hiding roll. You seem to think that the rules state that hiding ends automatically when a creature no longer qualifies for making a stealth check.
However, based on what I have seen of the rules this is not the case. The 2024 rules on hiding seem to state that the Invisible Condition is lost IF the creature is "found". The rules don't seem to state that the Invisible Condition is lost if the pre-requisites required for the original stealth roll are no longer met. So, as long as the character says they are hiding .. it falls on the DM to say to the player "No, you can't hide anymore because the circumstances don't permit it, creatures can see you". Then the player says that the Invisible Condition, which the character acquired when they successfully hid, states that special senses or magic are now required to see them (if your suggested modification was included).
I believe that you are thinking of special senses like X-ray vision or tremorsense that could detect a creature through half or 3/4 cover.
Anyway, the rules do not say that creature is no longer hiding if another creature can see them clearly (they should) ... if the invisible condition contained the line you suggest then players would argue that since they have the invisible condition, they can't be seen AT ALL except by creatures with magic or special senses, so if they did step out into view of another creature then they STILL could not be seen because the Invisible Condition (which they still have due to the successful stealth check) means that they are impossible to see. Hiding itself defines how the condition can end and clearly seen is not one of them.
In addition, the Invisibility spell lacks a line stating that it actually makes a creature invisible and "impossible to see except due to magic or special senses".
Personally, I think that line needs to be added to the invisibility spell, not to the Invisible Condition, since then a hidden creature which acquires the Invisible Condition, could still be seen if they step into view of another creature. If the invisible condition stated that they became impossible to see then a player would state that 1) their character is still trying to hide/hiding and 2) the invisible condition makes them impossible to see even if they step out where they would normally be clearly seen - since that is what the rules would state.
Anyway, I can see that you are reading interpretations into the rules that should be common sense but which the rules actually fail to sufficiently clarify. For example, remaining hidden requires being behind 3/4 or total cover, if a creature no longer meets the requirements for making a stealth roll then they are no longer hiding ... which you seem to believe is already implied by the rules but which I don't think is sufficiently explicit in the rules I have seen so far.
There's not really any reason to limit your Perception check to just Vision when trying to find a hidden creature. Perception checks take advantage of all of your senses. You might smell the hidden creatures, who knows?
In terms of game mechanics, I can't really think of any scenario where the creature remains hidden, you do not move into a position where you gain some sort of line of sight, and now you can see them with a perception check. You probably notice the leaves of the bushes rustling, the monsters whispering, hear a branch breaking, you might notice a shadow of the monster in the background or rays of light radiating upwards from a shiny helmet. If that creature is in a heavily obscured area or is behind total cover and you have no line of sight, then you still wouldn't be able to see it even if you succeed on your perception check. You can definitely "find" it, but you still cannot see it. In the 2014 rules, this meant that you can now know its location without having to "guess the square". The 3/4 cover thing also wasn't a thing then -- I believe it was added as a way to deal with the issue of "popping out" to make an attack, although that's not spelled out in that way in the new rules. There are actually no scenarios that I can think of where a creature is not heavily obscured and has only 3/4 cover and yet there is no line of sight.
I do believe that the new rules say this. However, I do think that the wording should be tweaked to make this a lot clearer to people. The 2014 rules just came right out and used the phrase "Until you stop hiding . . .". In 2024, we don't have that clause. You sort of have to get there in bits and pieces now. Even though it's not explicit, why should we believe that a creature is still hidden when he has stopped hiding? That just doesn't make sense and it doesn't align with the rest of the mechanic. The stealth roll persists. This means that once the prerequisites are met, you can make the roll which will confirm that you are hidden in that moment. BUT, it's explicitly stated that you keep that roll for use as the DC for (potentially multiple) Search attempts by other creatures trying to find you with a Perception check. It follows that these checks would be made to find you if you are hidden and that that stealth roll only remains in effect while you are hidden. After all, if you hide, and then you stop hiding, and then you want to hide again later, you would be required to make a new roll for a new stealth check. So, at some point you must be no longer hidden and at that point your stealth check expires.
What it MEANS to be hidden in the first place is that you've sufficiently concealed your position from view such that you can attempt to hide from other creatures. This was all spelled out in the prerequisites. In order to maintain this stealth roll as your DC on an ongoing basis, it only makes sense that that roll only applies while you are hidden.
All of this is related to when you actually have the Condition as a Hidden creature. It's not written very clearly, but it's basically saying that you have the Condition while you are hidden. That's what makes it possible to even use the Invisible Condition for this purpose in the first place -- otherwise, it's just preposterous to call a creature invisible that isn't actually invisible. Once we realize that all of the prerequisites for becoming hidden in the first place are rules that make it so that we cannot be seen by normal means, then all of a sudden referring to such a creature as invisible while they are hidden becomes reasonable.
But none of this even comes close to working if we cannot recognize how the hiding mechanic works -- that you put yourself into a position to attempt to hide, then you make the attempt to hide, and you can then remain hidden by hanging onto that stealth roll value on an ongoing basis. But, logically, in order to remain hidden, you have to actually remain hidden. If you leave your hiding place and start walking around, you are not hiding any more.
It's sort of like if I were to make an attempt to swim across a pool -- then, at some point I decide to stand up on the bottom of the pool and start walking along the bottom of the pool. Maybe some friends join in, and we set up a volleyball net and we play a game in the pool. An hour later I cannot declare that I am still swimming and that I've been swimming the whole time. That wouldn't make any sense. I have stopped swimming and I have moved on to other activities that do not involve swimming. Should there be an explicit rule somewhere within the rules for swimming that specifies exactly when and how it should be determined that I am no longer swimming? I don't think so. These sorts of interactions with the environment are just a given -- you don't need a rule that says that.
The listed ways that the Condition can be lost "immediately" are related to how the Condition can be lost while the creature is hidden. None of those methods (loud sound, enemy finds you, attack roll, cast a verbal spell) are relevant to creatures that are not hiding (or are no longer hiding). As such, if there is an additional method of losing the Condition called "you are no longer hiding", it would not be listed in that "immediately" list of methods since those methods are only related to creatures that ARE hiding.
It's a subtle distinction, but the Condition doesn't really "end on you immediately" when you stop hiding. Instead, you just don't "have" the Condition. You only "have" the Condition when you are hiding.
Relying on the DM to decide that circumstances are no longer appropriate for hiding is one crude way to do it, but it's better to just realize that you cannot be hidden if the prerequisites are not met. If someone has line of sight on you, you cannot be hidden. In this case, it's better to think of that creature as "no longer hidden" rather than "found", because that avoids the question of how you were found by someone without special senses. If you are no longer hidden then that person doesn't need special senses.
When you say:
I really feel strongly that it's very important not to fall into this trap. The character does NOT "acquire" the Condition when they hide. The words in that section were chosen extremely carefully. Instead, the character is said to "have" the Condition "on" a successful check. In particular, the word "have" in this context is extremely important. It's temporary and conditional. You have it when and while you are hidden. That's how and why you have it. The act of hiding is an ongoing activity. It's not a snapshot moment in time when things are fully resolved in an instant and status effects are then permanently assigned. It's ongoing. You remain hidden until you are no longer hiding. You have the condition while you are hiding.
No. That's the thing. There IS NO successful stealth check in that example. They stepped out into view. That stealth check is gone.
For example, if I attacked a creature 3 rounds ago, I cannot somehow use the result of that attack roll in combination with some feature that I want to use now in this moment. That attack roll is long gone. I am no longer attacking that creature, and I haven't been attacking that creature for a few rounds now.
If I am no longer hidden, I would have to make a whole new stealth check if I wanted to Hide again. While NOT hidden, I have no stealth roll. Any stealth roll that I may have previously made is long gone. Because of this, the Condition which relies on the existence of a successful stealth check is long gone as well. Since the character does not have the condition, he can now be seen without special senses. The player has no case. They stopped hiding.
Again, the Condition doesn't "end immediately" due to being clearly seen. That's not one of the methods for immediately ending the Condition on a hidden creature. Instead, being clearly seen means that you are no longer hidden, and if you are not hidden you don't have the condition.
In 2014, there was a rule in a separate area which stated:
This was in the sidebar in Chapter 7, which may have been removed. But we won't know that until we all see the new rules in their entirety. My guess is that this was consolidated and replaced by the prerequisites given in the Hide Action which basically says the same thing but in different words -- basically you can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly. By extension, you are no longer hidden if a creature can see you clearly. I don't think that we need the rule to actually say that. In 2014 there was that clause that said "Until you stop hiding . . .", but really that was redundant. It should be obvious that I am no longer hidden if I stop hiding just like I am no longer swimming if I stop swimming or any other activity that I might be engaged in on an ongoing basis.
I mean, a player can state that, but they would be wrong on both counts. The character cannot be trying to hide in plain sight. Since they are not hidden, they would not have the Condition.
That's the logic that doesn't make sense to me. There's no such thing as a hidden creature that steps into view of another creature. That's a contradiction. If a creature steps into view of another creature, then they are not hidden, by definition. That's why it works just fine for the "invisibility clause" to just be put into the Condition. It's only meant to be applied to hidden creatures while they are hidden.
I completely agree with you that a lot of this really needs to be written more explicitly. As mentioned before by others, at least before we all knew how Invisibility was supposed to work. But now, with the hiding mechanic, there are at least 3 different interpretations for what people truly believe the RAI actually was -- that's when you know that the way that the rules were written was a failure and absolutely needs to be changed.