This view makes the dual welder feat make sense as well as the thrown property. It also does away with the odd one handed with a shield thing, and my 5 attacks per round thing, which the designers likely didn't intend.
Could you describe your 5 attacks/round thing? I'm just curious. I am assuming you aren't using action surge since that trivially gives 5 attacks/rd once/rest at level 5.
No, you misunderstand. Show me where it says, "You get one free object interaction per turn, but certain actions will give you more."
I don't think he necessarily means "certain actions". It's really just any rule or any feature anywhere in the game might give you a free object interaction if they say that they do because things do what they say in this game.
As a default, you always have the one free interaction with an object or feature of the environment given by the general combat rule "Interacting with Things". This rule applies "during either your move or action" and is listed as a subsection of the "Your Turn" section of combat. Meaning, this is one of the things that you can do on Your Turn.
Your Turn
On your turn, you can move a distance up to your Speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first.
According to the rules in the "Your Turn" section, in addition to moving and taking an action, on your turn you can also communicate and/or interact with one object. You can also do nothing on your turn.
In other words, the restrictions for this interaction are very broad. It just has to be on Your Turn. This includes duringyour action.
One of the possible actions that you can take with your one action that you can take on Your Turn is called the Attack action, which is defined elsewhere. The Attack action defines an additional way that you can interact with something for free that is much more restrictive, in the Equipping and Unequipping Weapons rule. In this case, you can interact with only one particular type of object that is considered to be a weapon, and that has to be done during this particular type of Action and only when certain other conditions are met (you must be making an attack).
Since the default free object interaction can already be used in that way, there would be absolutely no reason for the Equipping and Unequipping Weapons rule to even exist at all if it were somehow simply replacing the object interaction that you already have, for a total of one. The mere existence of this more specific and more restrictive rule is telling you that this is separate and in addition to the other rule which could also be used in this same situation. The same is true for other rules such as the Thrown property. These are all cumulative ways to interact with weapons on your turn.
I'm not sure it is clear. Like I said I don't think the designers intended that a hunter ranger could take six attacks every round at level 5. And the thrown weapons have a redundant effect and dual wielder has a completely pointless ability.
None of us can know for sure what the intent of any design was, but I believe strongly that this is indeed exactly the sort of thing that they are trying to allow with the new rules. Damage-wise, slightly more attacks with lighter weapons is not necessarily stronger than using heavier weapons, so there isn't a drastic balance issue, and conceptually being able to attack slightly faster or more often with lighter weapons makes some logical sense and is a concept that has existed before in previous versions of D&D.
In addition, I believe strongly that they are intentionally trying to make certain small things more fun than they were. Having to worry too much about how to get the thing that you need into your hand in order to do something cool was unnecessarily restrictive in many cases and was mostly ignored by many players and DMs. A lot of ret-conning was happening where people would say things like "oh, I had my sword drawn the whole time while walking through town, and now I guess I'll just drop it on the ground so that I can draw my bow". These sorts of technicalities made things less fun and broke immersion and encouraged players do say that their characters would be doing things that they really wouldn't be doing, and so on. Making it much easier to draw weapons at the beginning of battle and to switch weapons during battle is a very positive design change that I am quite certain is extremely intentional.
Here is the attacks
Greataxe
Greataxe (hunters attack ability)
Greataxe (cleave... As I read it because the hunters ability and cleave trigger at the same time the player decides which goes first.)
Scrimar (2nd attack)
Scimitar (light weapon - Nick probably required for the object interactions)
Scimitar (feat) (obviously this attack is not used when you need to cast hunters mark.
If I remember correctly this gives you an average of 70 damage each round as long as each attack hits. The issue being it's not just light attacks. You literally always start off with a two handed weapon and then go into your one handed weapons or you use a shield and go into the light weapons. You should never use a longsword or any single weapon.
I'm just trying to figure this out ...
Attack action - " You can either equip or unequip one weapon" ... you can either equip or unequip, you can't do both.
Try 1
- Greataxe is d12 + str on a hit. Cleave allows an additional d12 against a second target within 5'
Can't equip a scimitar at this point since you still need the second attack with the greataxe which needs 2 hands.
- Extra attack Greataxe is d12 + str.
Equip scimitar
- Scimitar is d6 with the finesse and light properties
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
However, at this point you are out of attacks, you already attacked twice with the Greataxe and have no more attacks to use a scimitar.
-------
Try 2
- Greataxe is d12 + str on a hit. Cleave allows an additional d12 against a second target within 5'
Equip scimitar
- Make an attack with the scimitar
Unequip Greataxe
At this point you do NOT have another light weapon in the other hand to make the bonus action two weapon fighting attack with.
-----
Try 3
Start with 2 scimitars equiped
- attack with scimitar d6+stat
unequip scimitar
- make bonus action attack with the other scimitar using the nick property
You could make your second attack with the scimitar at this point but I don't see any way to equip and use the great axe.
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
--------------
You could suggest trying this with the dual wielder feat to exchange 2 weapons at once but it doesn't work with 2 handed weapons and only 2 handed weapons have cleave.
Moving the bonus action attack into the attack action DOES free up the bonus action for hunter's mark.
I'm not sure what attack "Scimitar (feat)" refers to ...
--------------
Unless folks are reading the dual wielder feat to give you a second bonus action attack?
"Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative."
The first one gets moved into the Attack action as part of the Nick property and then dual wielder property giving a regular bonus action attack?
If so, I expect to see errata on that fairly soon since the ability is called "Enhanced Dual Wielding" which implies an improvement to Dual Wielding not an additional Dual Wielding attack if the first is moved into the attack action by the nick property.
-----------------
Anyway, I'm just curious what rules interpretation I am missing that lets this work since most of dual wielding doesn't work with two handed weapons so Greataxe need not apply.
P.S. In terms of reading "an" action as one attack as part of the attack action or "any" attack as part of the attack action. I realized that it could be read either way since it is grammatically ambiguous. "an" could refer to " only one" or it could refer to "any" attack as part of the attack action. I read it as "any" but I can see the alternate reading.
This view makes the dual welder feat make sense as well as the thrown property. It also does away with the odd one handed with a shield thing, and my 5 attacks per round thing, which the designers likely didn't intend.
Could you describe your 5 attacks/round thing? I'm just curious. I am assuming you aren't using action surge since that trivially gives 5 attacks/rd once/rest at level 5.
I"m actually at 6 attacks now. (5 of those attacks are undisputed. It doesn't matter how you interpret the rules, the PC would still get five attacks. The only questionable part is whether or not the first attack could be with a greataxe.)
Currently I'm going with a hunter ranger so you can get hunter's mark. I haven't spent the time trying to optimize this to see how broken I can get.
Attack #1: Greataxe Trigger Cleave and Horde Breaker
Attack #2: Greataxe Horde Breaker
Attack #3: Greataxe Cleave (see edit)
Attack #4: Scimitar A You then stow Scimitar A.
Attack #5: Scimitar B Getting this because of Nick. You Pull Scimitar B out.
Attack #6: Scimitar B From the TWF feat.
At this point, you can either Stow the Scimitar B or perhaps start with it depending on how things go. Either way that should reset the attacks.
I'm also not sure if Greataxe + Cleave is the best combination. Maul might be better with Topple.
Edit: Scimitar A Stow Scimitar A Great Axe Great Axe Cleave Great Axe Horde Breaker Scimitar B Pull Scimitar B Out as Nick makes this attack on the attack Action Scimitar B Bonus action.
Now Scimitar A and B switch which starts the operation. That should fix any debate on whether or not you can Equip/Unequip on the cleave or horde breaker actions as you don't need to.
First attack - Greataxe Second attack - Greataxe cleave attack Object interaction unequip Greataxe Dual Wielder - Equip 2 Scimitars before making an attack Third attack - Scimitar attack 1 using your second attack from the attack action (main hand) Fourth attack - Scimitar attack 2 (off hand using Nick weapon mastery)
Attack [Bonus Action] Fifth attack - Scimitar attack 3 (off hand using a bonus action) - Also Note: If you also have the 2 weapon fighting style, this is the only attack that doesn't get to add the ability modifier to weapon damage.
No, you misunderstand. Show me where it says, "You get one free object interaction per turn, but certain actions will give you more."
I don't think he necessarily means "certain actions". It's really just any rule or any feature anywhere in the game might give you a free object interaction if they say that they do because things do what they say in this game.
As a default, you always have the one free interaction with an object or feature of the environment given by the general combat rule "Interacting with Things". This rule applies "during either your move or action" and is listed as a subsection of the "Your Turn" section of combat. Meaning, this is one of the things that you can do on Your Turn.
Your Turn
On your turn, you can move a distance up to your Speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first.
According to the rules in the "Your Turn" section, in addition to moving and taking an action, on your turn you can also communicate and/or interact with one object. You can also do nothing on your turn.
In other words, the restrictions for this interaction are very broad. It just has to be on Your Turn. This includes duringyour action.
One of the possible actions that you can take with your one action that you can take on Your Turn is called the Attack action, which is defined elsewhere. The Attack action defines an additional way that you can interact with something for free that is much more restrictive, in the Equipping and Unequipping Weapons rule. In this case, you can interact with only one particular type of object that is considered to be a weapon, and that has to be done during this particular type of Action and only when certain other conditions are met (you must be making an attack).
Since the default free object interaction can already be used in that way, there would be absolutely no reason for the Equipping and Unequipping Weapons rule to even exist at all if it were somehow simply replacing the object interaction that you already have, for a total of one. The mere existence of this more specific and more restrictive rule is telling you that this is separate and in addition to the other rule which could also be used in this same situation. The same is true for other rules such as the Thrown property. These are all cumulative ways to interact with weapons on your turn.
I'm not sure it is clear. Like I said I don't think the designers intended that a hunter ranger could take six attacks every round at level 5. And the thrown weapons have a redundant effect and dual wielder has a completely pointless ability.
None of us can know for sure what the intent of any design was, but I believe strongly that this is indeed exactly the sort of thing that they are trying to allow with the new rules. Damage-wise, slightly more attacks with lighter weapons is not necessarily stronger than using heavier weapons, so there isn't a drastic balance issue, and conceptually being able to attack slightly faster or more often with lighter weapons makes some logical sense and is a concept that has existed before in previous versions of D&D.
In addition, I believe strongly that they are intentionally trying to make certain small things more fun than they were. Having to worry too much about how to get the thing that you need into your hand in order to do something cool was unnecessarily restrictive in many cases and was mostly ignored by many players and DMs. A lot of ret-conning was happening where people would say things like "oh, I had my sword drawn the whole time while walking through town, and now I guess I'll just drop it on the ground so that I can draw my bow". These sorts of technicalities made things less fun and broke immersion and encouraged players do say that their characters would be doing things that they really wouldn't be doing, and so on. Making it much easier to draw weapons at the beginning of battle and to switch weapons during battle is a very positive design change that I am quite certain is extremely intentional.
Here is the attacks
Greataxe
Greataxe (hunters attack ability)
Greataxe (cleave... As I read it because the hunters ability and cleave trigger at the same time the player decides which goes first.)
Scrimar (2nd attack)
Scimitar (light weapon - Nick probably required for the object interactions)
Scimitar (feat) (obviously this attack is not used when you need to cast hunters mark.
If I remember correctly this gives you an average of 70 damage each round as long as each attack hits. The issue being it's not just light attacks. You literally always start off with a two handed weapon and then go into your one handed weapons or you use a shield and go into the light weapons. You should never use a longsword or any single weapon.
I'm just trying to figure this out ...
Attack action - " You can either equip or unequip one weapon" ... you can either equip or unequip, you can't do both.
Try 1
- Greataxe is d12 + str on a hit. Cleave allows an additional d12 against a second target within 5'
Can't equip a scimitar at this point since you still need the second attack with the greataxe which needs 2 hands.
- Extra attack Greataxe is d12 + str.
Equip scimitar
- Scimitar is d6 with the finesse and light properties
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
However, at this point you are out of attacks, you already attacked twice with the Greataxe and have no more attacks to use a scimitar.
-------
Try 2
- Greataxe is d12 + str on a hit. Cleave allows an additional d12 against a second target within 5'
Equip scimitar
- Make an attack with the scimitar
Unequip Greataxe
At this point you do NOT have another light weapon in the other hand to make the bonus action two weapon fighting attack with.
-----
Try 3
Start with 2 scimitars equiped
- attack with scimitar d6+stat
unequip scimitar
- make bonus action attack with the other scimitar using the nick property
You could make your second attack with the scimitar at this point but I don't see any way to equip and use the great axe.
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
--------------
You could suggest trying this with the dual wielder feat to exchange 2 weapons at once but it doesn't work with 2 handed weapons and only 2 handed weapons have cleave.
Moving the bonus action attack into the attack action DOES free up the bonus action for hunter's mark.
I'm not sure what attack "Scimitar (feat)" refers to ...
--------------
Unless folks are reading the dual wielder feat to give you a second bonus action attack?
"Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative."
The first one gets moved into the Attack action as part of the Nick property and then dual wielder property giving a regular bonus action attack?
If so, I expect to see errata on that fairly soon since the ability is called "Enhanced Dual Wielding" which implies an improvement to Dual Wielding not an additional Dual Wielding attack if the first is moved into the attack action by the nick property.
-----------------
Anyway, I'm just curious what rules interpretation I am missing that lets this work since most of dual wielding doesn't work with two handed weapons so Greataxe need not apply.
P.S. In terms of reading "an" action as one attack as part of the attack action or "any" attack as part of the attack action. I realized that it could be read either way since it is grammatically ambiguous. "an" could refer to " only one" or it could refer to "any" attack as part of the attack action. I read it as "any" but I can see the alternate reading.
Jeremy Crawford has stated that the intention is the Dual Wielding feat allows you to make four attacks. So it would be an extra attack. I assume you could have two attacks as a bonus action if you didn't have nick? But I have no idea.
2nd I'm leaning towards the one free object interaction restricting how many times you can draw and stow a weapon to only one. With that said however, I think the following order fixes the issue if you go with being able to draw/stow with any attack. (Keep in mind in theory the free object interaction with this interpretation would probably let you equip/unequip a weapon during/after the bonus action, but I don't think it is needed. And the other important fact that makes this work is the two handed weapon only requires two hands while attacking. I should also point out that my math was a little off before, it should result in an average of 63 damage per round. I accidentally added the ability bonus to the cleave attack.
Scimitar A Stow Scimitar A (If you had to equip it, you just unequip it before attacking with the great axe) Great Axe Great Axe Cleave Great Axe Horde Breaker Scimitar B Pull Scimitar B Out as Nick makes this attack on the attack Action Scimitar B Bonus action.
Now Scimitar A and B switch which starts the operation. That should fix any debate on whether or not you can Equip/Unequip on the cleave or horde breaker actions as you don't need to.
Fourth attack - Scimitar attack 2 (off hand using Nick weapon mastery)
Attack [Bonus Action] Fifth attack - Scimitar attack 3 (off hand using a bonus action) - Also Note: If you also have the 2 weapon fighting style, this is the only attack that doesn't get to add the ability modifier to weapon damage.
No this does NOT work that way.
The Light property allows you to do one additional attack as a Bonus Action. The Nick weapon mastery allows you to do it as part of the Attack Action instead and the TWF fighting style allows you to add your ability mod to the damage. Nothing allows it to become two additional attacks. It doesn't matter if you call it the "Light property attack" or the "offhand attack" or "TWF attack", you are still talking about the same single attack that the rules explicitly say that you can only make once per turn.
Edit: Hmm the Dual Wielder feat seems to have some issues that could possibly be taken to allow for two separate additional attacks. There are big issues both with the concept and the language, I would be extremely surprised if this didn't get an errata (or at least an SAC/dragon talk) really soon as it seems to be some very poor writing/design.
First attack - Greataxe Second attack - Greataxe cleave attack Object interaction unequip Greataxe Dual Wielder - Equip 2 Scimitars before making an attack Third attack - Scimitar attack 1 using your second attack from the attack action (main hand) Fourth attack - Scimitar attack 2 (off hand using Nick weapon mastery)
Attack [Bonus Action] Fifth attack - Scimitar attack 3 (off hand using a bonus action) - Also Note: This is the only attack that doesn't get to add the ability modifier to weapon damage.
I think crawford has stated the attack from the Dual Wielder feat attack also gets the ability modifier. I think the technical reason is the light property triggers two light weapon attacks. (presumably without Nick I assume you get to make both attacks during the bonus action. or you have to chose one of the two... its not really clear. Dual Weidler does say an extra attack though).
Fourth attack - Scimitar attack 2 (off hand using Nick weapon mastery)
Attack [Bonus Action] Fifth attack - Scimitar attack 3 (off hand using a bonus action) - Also Note: If you also have the 2 weapon fighting style, this is the only attack that doesn't get to add the ability modifier to weapon damage.
No this does NOT work that way.
The Light property allows you to do one additional attack as a Bonus Action. The Nick weapon mastery allows you to do it as part of the Attack Action instead and the TWF feat allows you to add your ability mod to the damage. Nothing allows it to become two additional attacks. It doesn't matter if you call it the "Light property attack" or the "offhand attack" or "TWF attack", you are still talking about the same single attack that the rules explicitly say that you can only make once per turn.
Fourth attack - Scimitar attack 2 (off hand using Nick weapon mastery)
Attack [Bonus Action] Fifth attack - Scimitar attack 3 (off hand using a bonus action) - Also Note: If you also have the 2 weapon fighting style, this is the only attack that doesn't get to add the ability modifier to weapon damage.
No this does NOT work that way.
The Light property allows you to do one additional attack as a Bonus Action. The Nick weapon mastery allows you to do it as part of the Attack Action instead and the TWF feat allows you to add your ability mod to the damage. Nothing allows it to become two additional attacks. It doesn't matter if you call it the "Light property attack" or the "offhand attack" or "TWF attack", you are still talking about the same single attack that the rules explicitly say that you can only make once per turn.
According to crawford the Dual Wielder feat allows you to make 4 attacks.
I agree that the verbiage on Thrown weapons, and the verbiage in the Dual Wielder feat become redundant or meaningless with the 'once per attack' interpretation.
No the rule that allows for Thrown weapons to be drawn as part of the attack will still be very useful for any attack you want to make that isn't done with the Attack Action (opportunity attacks being the main one I'd guess).
I haven't looked closely enough at the new Dual Wielder feat to be sure if its "draw two" language will be of much use or if it has become mostly superfluous due to other changes, I'm quite sure it will still be cinematic at least.
First attack - Greataxe Second attack - Greataxe cleave attack Object interaction unequip Greataxe Dual Wielder - Equip 2 Scimitars before making an attack Third attack - Scimitar attack 1 using your second attack from the attack action (main hand) Fourth attack - Scimitar attack 2 (off hand using Nick weapon mastery)
Attack [Bonus Action] Fifth attack - Scimitar attack 3 (off hand using a bonus action) - Also Note: This is the only attack that doesn't get to add the ability modifier to weapon damage.
I think crawford has stated the attack from the Dual Wielder feat attack also gets the ability modifier. I think the technical reason is the light property triggers two light weapon attacks. (presumably without Nick I assume you get to make both attacks during the bonus action. or you have to chose one of the two... its not really clear. Dual Weidler does say an extra attack though).
I think with or without Nick mastery, you still only get to make 1 attack using your Attack [Bonus Action]. It does make sense they would want all of your 'Off hand' attacks to add ability modifier to damage though, even if Dual Wielder specifically says you don't, Two Weapon Fighting says you do. They just need to clean up the language a bit to make this more clear.
I guess I'm counting the cleave attack as an attack, maybe I shouldn't be?
This works better I believe (I used a hunter ranger to get 6 attacks every round that you don't use hunter's mark) As far as I can tell nothing in the rules require the Scimitar attacks to be in a row. (I'm not even sure if the Cleave attack has to be directly after the first attack.) Scimitar A and B alternate rounds as the starting weapon.
Scimitar A Stow Scimitar A Great Axe Great Axe Cleave Great Axe Horde Breaker Scimitar B Pull Scimitar B Out as Nick makes this attack on the attack Action Scimitar B Bonus action.
Fourth attack - Scimitar attack 2 (off hand using Nick weapon mastery)
Attack [Bonus Action] Fifth attack - Scimitar attack 3 (off hand using a bonus action) - Also Note: If you also have the 2 weapon fighting style, this is the only attack that doesn't get to add the ability modifier to weapon damage.
No this does NOT work that way.
The Light property allows you to do one additional attack as a Bonus Action. The Nick weapon mastery allows you to do it as part of the Attack Action instead and the TWF fighting style allows you to add your ability mod to the damage. Nothing allows it to become two additional attacks. It doesn't matter if you call it the "Light property attack" or the "offhand attack" or "TWF attack", you are still talking about the same single attack that the rules explicitly say that you can only make once per turn.
Edit: Hmm the Dual Wielder feat seems to have some issues that could possibly be taken to allow for two separate additional attacks. There are big issues both with the concept and the language, I would be extremely surprised if this didn't get an errata (or at least an SAC/dragon talk) really soon as it seems to be some very poor writing/design.
I agree, this needs clarification badly.
The Bonus Action attack comes from Dual Wielder, since Light/Nick is giving you the 2nd Scimitar attack as part of the Attack [Action].
Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don't add your ability modifier to the extra attack's damage unless that modifier is negative.
I think with or without Nick mastery, you still only get to make 1 attack using your Attack [Bonus Action]. It does make sense they would want all of your 'Off hand' attacks to add ability modifier to damage though, even if Dual Wielder specifically says you don't, Two Weapon Fighting says you do. They just need to clean up the language a bit to make this more clear.
This is the same as the 2014 rules have been since the start. The two-weapon fighting rule (or the Light property in the 2024 rules) does NOT allow you to add the ability mod to the damage. The Two-Weapon Fighting style (both 2014 and 2024) then modifies that and allow you to add the ability mod.
First attack - Greataxe Second attack - Greataxe cleave attack Object interaction unequip Greataxe Dual Wielder - Equip 2 Scimitars before making an attack Third attack - Scimitar attack 1 using your second attack from the attack action (main hand) Fourth attack - Scimitar attack 2 (off hand using Nick weapon mastery)
Attack [Bonus Action] Fifth attack - Scimitar attack 3 (off hand using a bonus action) - Also Note: This is the only attack that doesn't get to add the ability modifier to weapon damage.
I think crawford has stated the attack from the Dual Wielder feat attack also gets the ability modifier. I think the technical reason is the light property triggers two light weapon attacks. (presumably without Nick I assume you get to make both attacks during the bonus action. or you have to chose one of the two... its not really clear. Dual Weidler does say an extra attack though).
I think with or without Nick mastery, you still only get to make 1 attack using your Attack [Bonus Action]. It does make sense they would want all of your 'Off hand' attacks to add ability modifier to damage though, even if Dual Wielder specifically says you don't, Two Weapon Fighting says you do. They just need to clean up the language a bit to make this more clear.
Dual Wielder
General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+, Strength or Dexterity 13+)
You gain the following benefits.
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
Quick Draw. You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn.
When you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of that attack if you aren’t already adding it to the damage.
The important part of this as to why TWF adds to both attack from Dual Wielder and the Light property is it specifically states that you add your ability modifier when you make an extra attack as the result of using a weapon that has the light property. As both the feat and the light property specify you are using a light weapon to make an extra attack, you would apply your ability modifier to both.
You do if you have two weapon fighting. As it is an extra attack from a light weapon.
You really should stop merging several rules into one argument, it is very easy to be misunderstood and even easier to mix things up and come to strange conclusions.
The DW feat does not allow you to add the ability mod, the TWF fighting style does. Claiming that one of those rules does things that it actually is the other one that does makes for confusing arguments.
You do if you have two weapon fighting. As it is an extra attack from a light weapon.
You really should stop merging several rules into one argument, it is very easy to be misunderstood and even easier to mix things up and come to strange conclusions.
The DW feat does not allow you to add the ability mod, the TWF fighting style does. Claiming that one of those rules does things that it actually is the other one that does makes for confusing arguments.
One day I will stop getting the dual wielder feat and two weapon fighter feats mixed up.... Today is clearly not that day, and tomorrow isn't going to be either. If the designers didn't want me to get them mixed up they shouldn't have two feats with similar names that apply to the same basic thing.
Like I'm 99% sure I'm going to switch the two again five minutes from now.
Could you describe your 5 attacks/round thing? I'm just curious. I am assuming you aren't using action surge since that trivially gives 5 attacks/rd once/rest at level 5.
I'm just trying to figure this out ...
Attack action - " You can either equip or unequip one weapon" ... you can either equip or unequip, you can't do both.
Try 1
- Greataxe is d12 + str on a hit. Cleave allows an additional d12 against a second target within 5'
Can't equip a scimitar at this point since you still need the second attack with the greataxe which needs 2 hands.
- Extra attack Greataxe is d12 + str.
Equip scimitar
- Scimitar is d6 with the finesse and light properties
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
However, at this point you are out of attacks, you already attacked twice with the Greataxe and have no more attacks to use a scimitar.
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Try 2
- Greataxe is d12 + str on a hit. Cleave allows an additional d12 against a second target within 5'
Equip scimitar
- Make an attack with the scimitar
Unequip Greataxe
At this point you do NOT have another light weapon in the other hand to make the bonus action two weapon fighting attack with.
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Try 3
Start with 2 scimitars equiped
- attack with scimitar d6+stat
unequip scimitar
- make bonus action attack with the other scimitar using the nick property
You could make your second attack with the scimitar at this point but I don't see any way to equip and use the great axe.
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
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You could suggest trying this with the dual wielder feat to exchange 2 weapons at once but it doesn't work with 2 handed weapons and only 2 handed weapons have cleave.
Moving the bonus action attack into the attack action DOES free up the bonus action for hunter's mark.
I'm not sure what attack "Scimitar (feat)" refers to ...
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Unless folks are reading the dual wielder feat to give you a second bonus action attack?
"Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative."
The first one gets moved into the Attack action as part of the Nick property and then dual wielder property giving a regular bonus action attack?
If so, I expect to see errata on that fairly soon since the ability is called "Enhanced Dual Wielding" which implies an improvement to Dual Wielding not an additional Dual Wielding attack if the first is moved into the attack action by the nick property.
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Anyway, I'm just curious what rules interpretation I am missing that lets this work since most of dual wielding doesn't work with two handed weapons so Greataxe need not apply.
P.S. In terms of reading "an" action as one attack as part of the attack action or "any" attack as part of the attack action. I realized that it could be read either way since it is grammatically ambiguous. "an" could refer to " only one" or it could refer to "any" attack as part of the attack action. I read it as "any" but I can see the alternate reading.
I"m actually at 6 attacks now. (5 of those attacks are undisputed. It doesn't matter how you interpret the rules, the PC would still get five attacks. The only questionable part is whether or not the first attack could be with a greataxe.)
Currently I'm going with a hunter ranger so you can get hunter's mark. I haven't spent the time trying to optimize this to see how broken I can get.
Attack #1: Greataxe Trigger Cleave and Horde Breaker
Attack #2: Greataxe Horde Breaker
Attack #3: Greataxe Cleave (see edit)
Attack #4: Scimitar A You then stow Scimitar A.
Attack #5: Scimitar B Getting this because of Nick. You Pull Scimitar B out.
Attack #6: Scimitar B From the TWF feat.
At this point, you can either Stow the Scimitar B or perhaps start with it depending on how things go. Either way that should reset the attacks.
I'm also not sure if Greataxe + Cleave is the best combination. Maul might be better with Topple.
Edit:
Scimitar A Stow Scimitar A
Great Axe
Great Axe Cleave
Great Axe Horde Breaker
Scimitar B Pull Scimitar B Out as Nick makes this attack on the attack Action
Scimitar B Bonus action.
Now Scimitar A and B switch which starts the operation. That should fix any debate on whether or not you can Equip/Unequip on the cleave or horde breaker actions as you don't need to.
@David42
If you have Dual Wielder, it works like this.
Attack [Action]
First attack - Greataxe
Second attack - Greataxe cleave attack
Object interaction unequip Greataxe
Dual Wielder - Equip 2 Scimitars before making an attack
Third attack - Scimitar attack 1 using your second attack from the attack action (main hand)
Fourth attack - Scimitar attack 2 (off hand using Nick weapon mastery)
Attack [Bonus Action]
Fifth attack - Scimitar attack 3 (off hand using a bonus action) - Also Note: If you also have the 2 weapon fighting style, this is the only attack that doesn't get to add the ability modifier to weapon damage.
Jeremy Crawford has stated that the intention is the Dual Wielding feat allows you to make four attacks. So it would be an extra attack. I assume you could have two attacks as a bonus action if you didn't have nick? But I have no idea.
2nd I'm leaning towards the one free object interaction restricting how many times you can draw and stow a weapon to only one. With that said however, I think the following order fixes the issue if you go with being able to draw/stow with any attack. (Keep in mind in theory the free object interaction with this interpretation would probably let you equip/unequip a weapon during/after the bonus action, but I don't think it is needed. And the other important fact that makes this work is the two handed weapon only requires two hands while attacking. I should also point out that my math was a little off before, it should result in an average of 63 damage per round. I accidentally added the ability bonus to the cleave attack.
Scimitar A Stow Scimitar A (If you had to equip it, you just unequip it before attacking with the great axe)
Great Axe
Great Axe Cleave
Great Axe Horde Breaker
Scimitar B Pull Scimitar B Out as Nick makes this attack on the attack Action
Scimitar B Bonus action.
Now Scimitar A and B switch which starts the operation. That should fix any debate on whether or not you can Equip/Unequip on the cleave or horde breaker actions as you don't need to.
No this does NOT work that way.
The Light property allows you to do one additional attack as a Bonus Action. The Nick weapon mastery allows you to do it as part of the Attack Action instead and the TWF fighting style allows you to add your ability mod to the damage. Nothing allows it to become two additional attacks. It doesn't matter if you call it the "Light property attack" or the "offhand attack" or "TWF attack", you are still talking about the same single attack that the rules explicitly say that you can only make once per turn.
Edit: Hmm the Dual Wielder feat seems to have some issues that could possibly be taken to allow for two separate additional attacks. There are big issues both with the concept and the language, I would be extremely surprised if this didn't get an errata (or at least an SAC/dragon talk) really soon as it seems to be some very poor writing/design.
I think crawford has stated the attack from the Dual Wielder feat attack also gets the ability modifier. I think the technical reason is the light property triggers two light weapon attacks. (presumably without Nick I assume you get to make both attacks during the bonus action. or you have to chose one of the two... its not really clear. Dual Weidler does say an extra attack though).
According to crawford the Dual Wielder feat allows you to make 4 attacks.
No the rule that allows for Thrown weapons to be drawn as part of the attack will still be very useful for any attack you want to make that isn't done with the Attack Action (opportunity attacks being the main one I'd guess).
I haven't looked closely enough at the new Dual Wielder feat to be sure if its "draw two" language will be of much use or if it has become mostly superfluous due to other changes, I'm quite sure it will still be cinematic at least.
I guess I'm counting the cleave attack as an attack, maybe I shouldn't be?
I think with or without Nick mastery, you still only get to make 1 attack using your Attack [Bonus Action]. It does make sense they would want all of your 'Off hand' attacks to add ability modifier to damage though, even if Dual Wielder specifically says you don't, Two Weapon Fighting says you do. They just need to clean up the language a bit to make this more clear.
This works better I believe (I used a hunter ranger to get 6 attacks every round that you don't use hunter's mark) As far as I can tell nothing in the rules require the Scimitar attacks to be in a row. (I'm not even sure if the Cleave attack has to be directly after the first attack.) Scimitar A and B alternate rounds as the starting weapon.
Scimitar A Stow Scimitar A
Great Axe
Great Axe Cleave
Great Axe Horde Breaker
Scimitar B Pull Scimitar B Out as Nick makes this attack on the attack Action
Scimitar B Bonus action.
I agree, this needs clarification badly.
The Bonus Action attack comes from Dual Wielder, since Light/Nick is giving you the 2nd Scimitar attack as part of the Attack [Action].
Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don't add your ability modifier to the extra attack's damage unless that modifier is negative.
Could you provide a source for that, seems very suspect IMO.
No the feat explicitly says that you don't add the ability mod (unless it is negative).
This is the same as the 2014 rules have been since the start. The two-weapon fighting rule (or the Light property in the 2024 rules) does NOT allow you to add the ability mod to the damage. The Two-Weapon Fighting style (both 2014 and 2024) then modifies that and allow you to add the ability mod.
Dual Wielder
General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+, Strength or Dexterity 13+)
You gain the following benefits.
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
Quick Draw. You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn.
Two-Weapon Fighting
Fighting Style Feat (Prerequisite: Fighting Style Feature)
When you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of that attack if you aren’t already adding it to the damage.
The important part of this as to why TWF adds to both attack from Dual Wielder and the Light property is it specifically states that you add your ability modifier when you make an extra attack as the result of using a weapon that has the light property. As both the feat and the light property specify you are using a light weapon to make an extra attack, you would apply your ability modifier to both.
You do if you have two weapon fighting. As it is an extra attack from a light weapon.
You really should stop merging several rules into one argument, it is very easy to be misunderstood and even easier to mix things up and come to strange conclusions.
The DW feat does not allow you to add the ability mod, the TWF fighting style does. Claiming that one of those rules does things that it actually is the other one that does makes for confusing arguments.
One day I will stop getting the dual wielder feat and two weapon fighter feats mixed up.... Today is clearly not that day, and tomorrow isn't going to be either. If the designers didn't want me to get them mixed up they shouldn't have two feats with similar names that apply to the same basic thing.
Like I'm 99% sure I'm going to switch the two again five minutes from now.
Cleave does indeed provide an attack (in the right circumstances) so that's not an issue.