Is it just me or is the new Chromatic Orb pretty good for upcasting? With only needing 2 of the d8s to match for it to jump it seems like the odds get pretty good when you're rolling 4-6 damage die and then each one of those jumps. A level 3 orb has a decent chance of hitting 4 targets for 5d8 each.
You hurl an orb of energy at a target within range. Choose Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Poison, or Thunder for the type of orb you create, and then make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 3d8 damage of the chosen type.
If you roll the same number on two or more of the d8s, the orb leaps to a different target of your choice within 30 feet of the target. Make an attack roll against the new target, and make a new damage roll. The orb can’t leap again unless you cast the spell with a level 2+ spell slot.
Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. The damage increases by 1d8 for each spell slot level above 1. The orb can leap a maximum number of times equal to the level of the slot expended, and a creature can be targeted only once by each casting of this spell.
Interesting observation. I wonder if the math's been run on that
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Another thought. What if you twin spelled it? A twinned 3rd level Orb could potentially rip through a fairly spread out group of enemies hitting up to 8 targets for 5d8 each!
I haven't run the math (and it's complex enough that I'd just simulate instead, because I'm both a programmer and lazy), but it's probably better than most spells of the level you're upcasting to. (OK, maybe not. I just compared it to Steel Wind Strike and Psychic Scream, and it's behind both in average damage per target.)
In practice, it's so much better than Chaos Bolt that I don't see why anyone would take CB. Yes, CB has more damage types, and can in theory jump any number of times, but it won't.
(OK, I'm keeping it on my Wild Magic Sorcerer, but that's knowingly taking a bad choice for flavor reasons in a low-combat game.)
Is it just me or is the new Chromatic Orb pretty good for upcasting?
It's better than an average level 1 spell for upcasting, but that's not a very high bar to cross. The odds of jumping are
3d8: 34%
4d8: 59%
5d8: 79%
6d8: 92%
7d8: 98%
8d8: 99.75%
9d8 or more: 100%
The thing is, in order to jump it needs to actually hit, and it's also got a target cap equal to the spell level, and its damage is fairly meh when cast with a level 3+ spell -- fireball, cone of cold, chain lightning, etc, all handily outdamage it and are straight-up area attacks.
The math is actually pretty simple; just calculate the odds that all the d8's are different, and subtract that from 100%. E.g. For 3d8, there's 7/8 ways for the second d8 to roll different from the first, and 6/8 ways for the third d8 to roll different from the other two, which gives you 1 - (7/8)*(6/8) = 0.34375. Easy enough to extend that logic to more dice.
1st level: 34.38%
2nd level: 58.98%
3rd level: 79.49%
If you use Heroic Inspiration to reroll one of the damage die, your odds of getting another target is just (# of dice you're not rerolling)/8.
You can't. The new Twinned Spell only works on spells that get additional targets with higher spell level; it increases the spell level by 1. You wouldn't be able to under the 2014 rules either, because the old Twinned Spell doesn't work on any spell that's capable of having more than one target.
Another thought. What if you twin spelled it? A twinned 3rd level Orb could potentially rip through a fairly spread out group of enemies hitting up to 8 targets for 5d8 each!
You can’t twin it. New twin spell:
When you cast a spell, such as Charm Person, that can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature, you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to increase the spell’s effective level by 1.
Upcasting increases damage, not number of targets, so it’s not eligible.
Is it just me or is the new Chromatic Orb pretty good for upcasting?
It's better than an average level 1 spell for upcasting, but that's not a very high bar to cross. The odds of jumping are
3d8: 34%
4d8: 59%
5d8: 79%
6d8: 92%
7d8: 98%
8d8: 99.75%
9d8 or more: 100%
The thing is, in order to jump it needs to actually hit, and it's also got a target cap equal to the spell level, and its damage is fairly meh when cast with a level 3+ spell -- fireball, cone of cold, chain lightning, etc, all handily outdamage it and are straight-up area attacks.
My reading is the level cap is the number of times it can jump rather than the total number it can target. So the total possible targets is spell level +1.
I guess my thinking is the number of spells a sorcerer gets is limited. In actual game play it seems like getting 3 or 4 targets in an AOE is a pretty standard result, more seems rare unless you're first to act. So maybe upcasting an Orb is good enough to justify taking non AOE damage spells? Like, if you just take CO then you can skip taking fireball, cone of cold and chain lightning? It also avoids friendly fire making it more useable and flexible.
Also, to another person's question. The spell does have a 50gp diamond spell component. Maybe its just the DMs I've had, but they've all been pretty loose and easy about giving expensive spell components if I wanted to take a spell.
Also, to another person's question. The spell does have a 50gp diamond spell component. Maybe its just the DMs I've had, but they've all been pretty loose and easy about giving expensive spell components if I wanted to take a spell.
It's a non-consumed spell component. By the time you're worried about upcasting, 50 gp isn't a big deal.
So yeah, considering you also have to hit each target for it to jump, there's a pretty good chance it won't expand to max targets, especially at lower levels. At higher levels, like 5th and above the odds are really high that it will jump and spell attack mod is usually pretty good by then.
Anyway, I'm still liking this spell and want to try it out. It doesn't match other AoE spells for potential damage, but it avoids friendly fire making it easier to use and allows a sorcerer to take more utility and control spells while still having a legitimate higher level damage spell. Plus, I kind of like the randomness of it all.
So yeah, considering you also have to hit each target for it to jump, there's a pretty good chance it won't expand to max targets, especially at lower levels. At higher levels, like 5th and above the odds are really high that it will jump and spell attack mod is usually pretty good by then.
Shouldn't be terribly difficult for sorcerers using their Innate Sorcery feature for advantage, or if multiple monsters fail their save against Faerie Fire. The median AC for monsters across the general purpose 2014 source books (MM, Volo's, Mordenkainen's) was only 14.6 AC, with the most common AC being 12. Not exactly high. I doubt the 2024 Monster Manual will change how monster AC values are assigned either; if anything they'll give monsters more HP to compensate for player buffs.
EDIT: There's a new Metamagic called Seeking Spell that lets Sorcerers reroll a failed attack roll for 1 Sorcery Point too. EDIT 2: It's actually not new, I forgot it was in Tasha's Cauldron. Used to cost 2 points though, so that's still an improvement.
Also worth pointing out that the 2024 PHB added a cantrip with a similar gimmick called Sorcerous Burst. If you get an 8 on the damage roll, you can roll another d8.
Well why cant you twin it? Twinned Spell specifies spells that can be cast at a higher level to be able to target additional creatures. Chromatic Orb says that when you up cast it "The orb can leap a maximum number of times equal to the level of the slot expended, and a creature can be targeted only once by each casting of this spell." and each bounce does in fact target only additional (new) creatures. Nothing about upcasting demands you target additional creatures, it just says you can and this is doing the same as far as I can tell.
Edit: This post was made under the assumption that the Sage Advice on Twinned Spell isn't in effect anymore otherwise the 2024 twinned simply cant function under most scenarios where you would like to use it.
Well why cant you twin it? Twinned Spell specifies spells that can be cast at a higher level to be able to target additional creatures. Chromatic Orb says that when you up cast it "The orb can leap a maximum number of times equal to the level of the slot expended, and a creature can be targeted only once by each casting of this spell." and each bounce does in fact target only additional (new) creatures. Nothing about upcasting demands you target additional creatures, it just says you can and this is doing the same as far as I can tell.
Edit: This post was made under the assumption that the Sage Advice on Twinned Spell isn't in effect anymore otherwise the 2024 twinned simply cant function under most scenarios where you would like to use it.
Chromatic Orb can be upcast to increase its damage and potential leaps. To make it twinnable, the upcast must specify something like "... can target one additional ...". Some examples are Bane, Bless or Jump.
Is it just me or is the new Chromatic Orb pretty good for upcasting? With only needing 2 of the d8s to match for it to jump it seems like the odds get pretty good when you're rolling 4-6 damage die and then each one of those jumps. A level 3 orb has a decent chance of hitting 4 targets for 5d8 each.
Interesting observation. I wonder if the math's been run on that
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Another thought. What if you twin spelled it? A twinned 3rd level Orb could potentially rip through a fairly spread out group of enemies hitting up to 8 targets for 5d8 each!
I haven't run the math (and it's complex enough that I'd just simulate instead, because I'm both a programmer and lazy), but it's probably better than most spells of the level you're upcasting to. (OK, maybe not. I just compared it to Steel Wind Strike and Psychic Scream, and it's behind both in average damage per target.)
In practice, it's so much better than Chaos Bolt that I don't see why anyone would take CB. Yes, CB has more damage types, and can in theory jump any number of times, but it won't.
(OK, I'm keeping it on my Wild Magic Sorcerer, but that's knowingly taking a bad choice for flavor reasons in a low-combat game.)
Does the new version of Chromatic Orb still require an expensive material component?
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It's better than an average level 1 spell for upcasting, but that's not a very high bar to cross. The odds of jumping are
The thing is, in order to jump it needs to actually hit, and it's also got a target cap equal to the spell level, and its damage is fairly meh when cast with a level 3+ spell -- fireball, cone of cold, chain lightning, etc, all handily outdamage it and are straight-up area attacks.
The math is actually pretty simple; just calculate the odds that all the d8's are different, and subtract that from 100%. E.g. For 3d8, there's 7/8 ways for the second d8 to roll different from the first, and 6/8 ways for the third d8 to roll different from the other two, which gives you 1 - (7/8)*(6/8) = 0.34375. Easy enough to extend that logic to more dice.
If you use Heroic Inspiration to reroll one of the damage die, your odds of getting another target is just (# of dice you're not rerolling)/8.
You can't. The new Twinned Spell only works on spells that get additional targets with higher spell level; it increases the spell level by 1. You wouldn't be able to under the 2014 rules either, because the old Twinned Spell doesn't work on any spell that's capable of having more than one target.
Yes, and that's one reason you might use Chaos Bolt instead.
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You can’t twin it. New twin spell:
When you cast a spell, such as Charm Person, that can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature, you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to increase the spell’s effective level by 1.
Upcasting increases damage, not number of targets, so it’s not eligible.
My reading is the level cap is the number of times it can jump rather than the total number it can target. So the total possible targets is spell level +1.
I guess my thinking is the number of spells a sorcerer gets is limited. In actual game play it seems like getting 3 or 4 targets in an AOE is a pretty standard result, more seems rare unless you're first to act. So maybe upcasting an Orb is good enough to justify taking non AOE damage spells? Like, if you just take CO then you can skip taking fireball, cone of cold and chain lightning? It also avoids friendly fire making it more useable and flexible.
Also, to another person's question. The spell does have a 50gp diamond spell component. Maybe its just the DMs I've had, but they've all been pretty loose and easy about giving expensive spell components if I wanted to take a spell.
It's a non-consumed spell component. By the time you're worried about upcasting, 50 gp isn't a big deal.
So yeah, considering you also have to hit each target for it to jump, there's a pretty good chance it won't expand to max targets, especially at lower levels. At higher levels, like 5th and above the odds are really high that it will jump and spell attack mod is usually pretty good by then.
Anyway, I'm still liking this spell and want to try it out. It doesn't match other AoE spells for potential damage, but it avoids friendly fire making it easier to use and allows a sorcerer to take more utility and control spells while still having a legitimate higher level damage spell. Plus, I kind of like the randomness of it all.
Shouldn't be terribly difficult for sorcerers using their Innate Sorcery feature for advantage, or if multiple monsters fail their save against Faerie Fire. The median AC for monsters across the general purpose 2014 source books (MM, Volo's, Mordenkainen's) was only 14.6 AC, with the most common AC being 12. Not exactly high. I doubt the 2024 Monster Manual will change how monster AC values are assigned either; if anything they'll give monsters more HP to compensate for player buffs.
EDIT: There's a new Metamagic called Seeking Spell that lets Sorcerers reroll a failed attack roll for 1 Sorcery Point too. EDIT 2: It's actually not new, I forgot it was in Tasha's Cauldron. Used to cost 2 points though, so that's still an improvement.
Also worth pointing out that the 2024 PHB added a cantrip with a similar gimmick called Sorcerous Burst. If you get an 8 on the damage roll, you can roll another d8.
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Well why cant you twin it? Twinned Spell specifies spells that can be cast at a higher level to be able to target additional creatures. Chromatic Orb says that when you up cast it "The orb can leap a maximum number of times equal to the level of the slot expended, and a creature can be targeted only once by each casting of this spell." and each bounce does in fact target only additional (new) creatures. Nothing about upcasting demands you target additional creatures, it just says you can and this is doing the same as far as I can tell.
Edit: This post was made under the assumption that the Sage Advice on Twinned Spell isn't in effect anymore otherwise the 2024 twinned simply cant function under most scenarios where you would like to use it.
Chromatic Orb can be upcast to increase its damage and potential leaps. To make it twinnable, the upcast must specify something like "... can target one additional ...". Some examples are Bane, Bless or Jump.