Hey, so I've been searching and searching and can't find any details on how using common sign language would work with spell casting?
If a spell has vocal components, and the character uses common sign language does that then mean it's a somatic component, and if such what happens with the normal somatic component?
Just wondering as I've been thinking of playing a mute bard whose a mime and the sign language makes it perfect but how does it effect casting bard spells?
Hey, so I've been searching and searching and can't find any details on how using common sign language would work with spell casting?
If a spell has vocal components, and the character uses common sign language does that then mean it's a somatic component, and if such what happens with the normal somatic component?
Just wondering as I've been thinking of playing a mute bard whose a mime and the sign language makes it perfect but how does it effect casting bard spells?
Anything official that I'm just not seeing?
Thanks.
So common sign language is technically not verbal and as a result I would say cannot be used for spellcasting.
There may also be an issue with it tying up your hands which therefore couldn't be used for the semantic components.
Also it's interactions with how the hide action works. That's a whole other debate but it could make you invisible and be able to cast a ton of spells and remain invisible. (Depending on how that debate goes)
It would also allow you to bypass the silence spell.
And would be granting you sublte spell without the metamagic cost.
So I'm inclined to say no because of the issue with other parts of the game. As far as RAW goes I think the answer would be no.
Yeah with the base 5e rules I always assumed this would be the case, but with them adding the sign language in the 2024 I hoped they would have looked at how it works within RAW with everything else.
Hopefully they'll errata more details around this, as adding sign language is great but having no explanation on how it works at half the classes in the game makes it basically useless for being inclusive.
Yeah with the base 5e rules I always assumed this would be the case, but with them adding the sign language in the 2024 I hoped they would have looked at how it works within RAW with everything else.
Hopefully they'll errata more details around this, as adding sign language is great but having no explanation on how it works at half the classes in the game makes it basically useless for being inclusive.
Yeah it is one of those things that sounds good, but requires all the other PCs and NPCs to have it as well. And I doubt the monster manual is going to automatically give it to everyone.
And there is no good way to remove verbal components from spells without completely changing 70% of the game.
People have wanted to do this even before sign language was officially added. Bhthephoenix gives some good reasons why sign language doesn’t work as a V component — it would make such casters very powerful. In the past, I’ve always said there needs to be some sound involved. Rhythmic clapping, banging your staff into the ground, something, anything that makes noise to put them on par with other casters.
Yeah with the base 5e rules I always assumed this would be the case, but with them adding the sign language in the 2024 I hoped they would have looked at how it works within RAW with everything else.
Hopefully they'll errata more details around this, as adding sign language is great but having no explanation on how it works at half the classes in the game makes it basically useless for being inclusive.
I think there could be a work around. I see no inherent reason the verbal component couldn't be a clap/foot stomp or whatever. Provided the player knows that game mechanically it's going to function like you were speaking for interactions with the rules of the game.
FWIW, in my games I consider all wizards to know a manual alphabet for their somatic components. It's not a signed language per se (in the same way that ASL is not merely English on the hands) but of course manual alphabets are a key part of sign language. So I would say a hearing wizard has just as much to learn about somatic components as a HH or deaf one has to learn about verbal ones (which I consider to be generally monosyllabic, so not unachievable); both need to step outside of their original language comfort zones as apprentices to fulfill the requirements of the spells they need as actual wizards.
If it's of any interest, here is my manual alphabet, based on an adaptation of Old Irish Ogham, roundhand calligraphic techniques, and an incredibly convoluted theoretical magic framework that is far beyond the scope of this discussion. If it's of any use to you, by all means take it and run with it.
FWIW, in my games I consider all wizards to know a manual alphabet for their somatic components. It's not a signed language per se (in the same way that ASL is not merely English on the hands) but of course manual alphabets are a key part of sign language. So I would say a hearing wizard has just as much to learn about somatic components as a HH or deaf one has to learn about verbal ones (which I consider to be generally monosyllabic, so not unachievable); both need to step outside of their original language comfort zones as apprentices to fulfill the requirements of the spells they need as actual wizards.
If it's of any interest, here is my manual alphabet, based on an adaptation of Old Irish Ogham, roundhand calligraphic techniques, and an incredibly convoluted theoretical magic framework that is far beyond the scope of this discussion. If it's of any use to you, by all means take it and run with it.
That's pretty amazing, @ShaneTheStrange! Thanks for sharing!
Nothing requires the V to be in Common. Having another language option for players shouldn't have any effect on Spellcasting.
Normally it wouldn't matter because all other languages make a sound. Sign Language does not. This means that a character in a silence spell only needs to sign to still cast all their spells. It also means that every spell caster has subtle spell without the metamagic requirement. It greatly increases the number of spells you can cast while hidden (and assuming you can leave your hiding spot and remain invisible, could be problematic) There are probably more issues that I'm not thinking about right now.
And just from the RAW perspective, Sign Language is not verbal, and therefore does not fulfill the verbal component part of a spell.
No one for example has let a rogue simply use thieves cant to cast spells for many of these same reasons.
Just to clarify, I agree that spells with V component can't avoid that by using Sign Language. Spells aren't tied to a specific language (such as Common) and therefore there aren't funny loopholes with picking a language.
Just to clarify, I agree that spells with V component can't avoid that by using Sign Language. Spells aren't tied to a specific language (such as Common) and therefore there aren't funny loopholes with picking a language.
I think that might be where the disconnect is. In 2024 common sign language is a language that you can chose during character creation
Yes but as Spells aren't cast in Common (or any other specific language) then it should have no effect on V if someone selects to have Common Sign Language as a language.
Also:
A Verbal component is the chanting of esoteric words that sound like nonsense to the uninitiated. The words must be uttered in a normal speaking voice.
That's pretty amazing, @ShaneTheStrange! Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for the kind words =). It's part of a 129-page document I'm selling for a fiver on DMsGuild (search "wizard spell lessons"), but it seemed like that page in particular could be of some use or entertainment to anyone interested in this thread.
I'm not recommending anyone pick up my work, BTW, just letting you know where that came from. My document is incredibly esoteric and idiosyncratic, being made purely for myself and shared only as an afterthought. It's difficult to read if you're used to reading modern print, and it's difficult to understand if you're not familiar with (or willing to dip your toes into) chemistry, alchemy, knot theory, probability theory, and any number of other abstruse topics. It's very niche, but it does seem to bring in slow but steady sales to people who surprisingly like it XD.
Just to clarify, I agree that spells with V component can't avoid that by using Sign Language. Spells aren't tied to a specific language (such as Common) and therefore there aren't funny loopholes with picking a language.
I think that might be where the disconnect is. In 2024 common sign language is a language that you can chose during character creation
Thieves' Cant is listed as a language in 5e and 5e2024 as well. But it's less of a language and more of a code. Telepathy also shows up in the languages section. Just because something goes in that box doesn't mean it's valid for verbal components.
A verbal component is a term that is defined by the game:
A Verbal component is the chanting of esoteric words that sound like nonsense to the uninitiated. The words must be uttered in a normal speaking voice. The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a creature who is gagged or in an area of magical silence can’t cast a spell with a Verbal component.
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Hey, so I've been searching and searching and can't find any details on how using common sign language would work with spell casting?
If a spell has vocal components, and the character uses common sign language does that then mean it's a somatic component, and if such what happens with the normal somatic component?
Just wondering as I've been thinking of playing a mute bard whose a mime and the sign language makes it perfect but how does it effect casting bard spells?
Anything official that I'm just not seeing?
Thanks.
So common sign language is technically not verbal and as a result I would say cannot be used for spellcasting.
There may also be an issue with it tying up your hands which therefore couldn't be used for the semantic components.
Also it's interactions with how the hide action works. That's a whole other debate but it could make you invisible and be able to cast a ton of spells and remain invisible. (Depending on how that debate goes)
It would also allow you to bypass the silence spell.
And would be granting you sublte spell without the metamagic cost.
So I'm inclined to say no because of the issue with other parts of the game. As far as RAW goes I think the answer would be no.
A verbal requirement is a verbal requirement. Having the ability to communicate nonverbally doesn’t change the requirements of the spell.
Yeah with the base 5e rules I always assumed this would be the case, but with them adding the sign language in the 2024 I hoped they would have looked at how it works within RAW with everything else.
Hopefully they'll errata more details around this, as adding sign language is great but having no explanation on how it works at half the classes in the game makes it basically useless for being inclusive.
Yeah it is one of those things that sounds good, but requires all the other PCs and NPCs to have it as well. And I doubt the monster manual is going to automatically give it to everyone.
And there is no good way to remove verbal components from spells without completely changing 70% of the game.
People have wanted to do this even before sign language was officially added. Bhthephoenix gives some good reasons why sign language doesn’t work as a V component — it would make such casters very powerful.
In the past, I’ve always said there needs to be some sound involved. Rhythmic clapping, banging your staff into the ground, something, anything that makes noise to put them on par with other casters.
For an in-universe explanation: The sound itself helps trigger the spell. Same reason telepathic communication can't be used as a verbal component.
I think there could be a work around. I see no inherent reason the verbal component couldn't be a clap/foot stomp or whatever. Provided the player knows that game mechanically it's going to function like you were speaking for interactions with the rules of the game.
FWIW, in my games I consider all wizards to know a manual alphabet for their somatic components. It's not a signed language per se (in the same way that ASL is not merely English on the hands) but of course manual alphabets are a key part of sign language. So I would say a hearing wizard has just as much to learn about somatic components as a HH or deaf one has to learn about verbal ones (which I consider to be generally monosyllabic, so not unachievable); both need to step outside of their original language comfort zones as apprentices to fulfill the requirements of the spells they need as actual wizards.
If it's of any interest, here is my manual alphabet, based on an adaptation of Old Irish Ogham, roundhand calligraphic techniques, and an incredibly convoluted theoretical magic framework that is far beyond the scope of this discussion. If it's of any use to you, by all means take it and run with it.
That's pretty amazing, @ShaneTheStrange! Thanks for sharing!
Nothing requires the V to be in Common. Having another language option for players shouldn't have any effect on Spellcasting.
Normally it wouldn't matter because all other languages make a sound. Sign Language does not. This means that a character in a silence spell only needs to sign to still cast all their spells. It also means that every spell caster has subtle spell without the metamagic requirement. It greatly increases the number of spells you can cast while hidden (and assuming you can leave your hiding spot and remain invisible, could be problematic) There are probably more issues that I'm not thinking about right now.
And just from the RAW perspective, Sign Language is not verbal, and therefore does not fulfill the verbal component part of a spell.
No one for example has let a rogue simply use thieves cant to cast spells for many of these same reasons.
Just to clarify, I agree that spells with V component can't avoid that by using Sign Language. Spells aren't tied to a specific language (such as Common) and therefore there aren't funny loopholes with picking a language.
I think that might be where the disconnect is. In 2024 common sign language is a language that you can chose during character creation
Yes but as Spells aren't cast in Common (or any other specific language) then it should have no effect on V if someone selects to have Common Sign Language as a language.
Also:
Thanks for all the replies on this, I totally hadn't thought about verbal components not being vocal noises!
Now he's going to have a Swany whistle, squeaky horn, etc for any verbal spells.
Thanks for the kind words =). It's part of a 129-page document I'm selling for a fiver on DMsGuild (search "wizard spell lessons"), but it seemed like that page in particular could be of some use or entertainment to anyone interested in this thread.
I'm not recommending anyone pick up my work, BTW, just letting you know where that came from. My document is incredibly esoteric and idiosyncratic, being made purely for myself and shared only as an afterthought. It's difficult to read if you're used to reading modern print, and it's difficult to understand if you're not familiar with (or willing to dip your toes into) chemistry, alchemy, knot theory, probability theory, and any number of other abstruse topics. It's very niche, but it does seem to bring in slow but steady sales to people who surprisingly like it XD.
Thieves' Cant is listed as a language in 5e and 5e2024 as well. But it's less of a language and more of a code. Telepathy also shows up in the languages section. Just because something goes in that box doesn't mean it's valid for verbal components.
How are signed languages not verbal? Definitionally, verbal means of or relating to words, which applies to all languages, including signed languages.
A verbal component is a term that is defined by the game: