Surprising Strikes. During the first round of each combat, you have Advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn. If your Sneak Attack hits any target during that round, the target takes extra damage of the weapon’s type equal to your Rogue level.
So if I Hit with a Shortbow (1d6+ piercing) + Sneak Attach (2d6) and I'm L3 what is this 'extra damage', surely it can't be simply +3 piercing in this context?
That seems low considering I can only use this once in the first round of combat?
+3 damage is perfectly fine at 3rd level for a feature that also gives you advantage on Initiative and advantage (and indirectly increased crit chance) on attack rolls against anyone lower on initiative than you. It goes up every level.
The Assassinate feature Surprise Strike deals extra damage equal to your Rogue level at the same rate as Sneak Attack which 1/turn, meaning you can potentially do it again on other's turn as Opportunity Attack or other reaction for example.
+3 damage is perfectly fine at 3rd level for a feature that also gives you advantage on Initiative and advantage (and indirectly increased crit chance) on attack rolls against anyone lower on initiative than you. It goes up every level.
Nah. There are couple of options including the hidden rules that already gives advantage on initiative so its a kind of no go. Compare it to the champion, where you have crit and can gain advantages from other sources too for a whole fight, at least you can feel your choices.
The real problem is its a feature that is usefull ONE round, and will not bring anything you could not get elsewhere like getting that initiative or that advantage via other means. Its like having no subclass, I dont feel that choice at all. Other subclasses on rogue or on other classes just bring a lot more.
I would have given advantage on all attack against anyone ur higher in the initiative for the whole fight. This way you'll be confronted to strategic choices. Thats kinda what they went for the lvl9 feature, but its just too late. Maybe even limit that to melee, so melee can actually compete with the ranged niche rogue is going to be in.
I understand some choices, giving too much dammage doesnt help for balancing as a dm. If you give too much you take the risk of getting ur whole encounter triviliased on a critical strike. Hence the 'bonus dammage' that dont get multiplied.
In perspective to everything else, playing assassin is not worth it. And I'm not talking on dammage, tho I understand people would like to actually feel they have done some as an 'assassin'. The class is already basically an allin.
+3 damage is perfectly fine at 3rd level for a feature that also gives you advantage on Initiative and advantage (and indirectly increased crit chance) on attack rolls against anyone lower on initiative than you. It goes up every level.
Nah. There are couple of options including the hidden rules that already gives advantage on initiative so its a kind of no go. Compare it to the champion, where you have crit and can gain advantages from other sources too for a whole fight, at least you can feel your choices.
The real problem is its a feature that is usefull ONE round, and will not bring anything you could not get elsewhere like getting that initiative or that advantage via other means. Its like having no subclass, I dont feel that choice at all. Other subclasses on rogue or on other classes just bring a lot more.
I would have given advantage on all attack against anyone ur higher in the initiative for the whole fight. This way you'll be confronted to strategic choices. Thats kinda what they went for the lvl9 feature, but its just too late. Maybe even limit that to melee, so melee can actually compete with the ranged niche rogue is going to be in.
I understand some choices, giving too much dammage doesnt help for balancing as a dm. If you give too much you take the risk of getting ur whole encounter triviliased on a critical strike. Hence the 'bonus dammage' that dont get multiplied.
In perspective to everything else, playing assassin is not worth it. And I'm not talking on dammage, tho I understand people would like to actually feel they have done some as an 'assassin'. The class is already basically an allin.
I'm gunna disagree on this one, Advantage on Initiative means you can never have Disadvantage, given the new rules for surprise, this is still a good bonus. The extra damage is an increase of around 50% to sneak attack at any given level, sure it's only usable on the first turn of combat but it is still more damage on top of gaining the advantage on initiative, you additionally have advantage on the attacks. There aren't that many sources of advantage on initiative, but there is now an additional source of disadvantage.
Big numbers aren't always needed for features to be impactful but the numbers here scale well to level, which has always been a thing for Rogue's sneak attack damage. Overall I believe it's quiet fine where it is.
Nah. There are couple of options including the hidden rules that already gives advantage on initiative so its a kind of no go.
You don't always get to start battles your way (e.g. hidden.) The nice thing about Assassins is that their initiative advantage is unconditional.
Compare it to the champion, where you have crit and can gain advantages from other sources too for a whole fight, at least you can feel your choices.
Yeah but Champions don't have a big pile of d6s to double up on their crits, and have expend some action to get advantage.
A Champion isn't going to get advantage from Vex, Topple, or shoving prone on their first attack. And if they don't hit their first attack or the enemy makes its save, they're not going to get it on their second attack either. If they're relying on a spellcasting buddy for Faerie Fire, they have to wait for their turn, which will probably be lower on initiative. If we're comparing to other Rogue subclasses using Steady Aim, they can't move and lose their Bonus Action.
The Assassin doesn't have those problems. It always has advantage on initiative and it's almost always going to have a creature it gets automatic advantage against. By the time they're 4th level they can take Dual Wielder and every time combat starts they get to throw 6d20, probably land all 3 hits, and have a 1/4 chance of seeing a 20 and doubling their Sneak Attack.
The real problem is its a feature that is usefull ONE round, and will not bring anything you could not get elsewhere like getting that initiative or that advantage via other means. Its like having no subclass, I dont feel that choice at all. Other subclasses on rogue or on other classes just bring a lot more.
The whole point of the Assassin subclass is to come out swinging hard and cripple or take out an enemy before they even do anything. Maybe it's just not for you.
I know that you always will have initiative advantage. But any character with lucky too. Its not that marking.
The Assassin doesn't have those problems. It always has advantage on initiative and it's almost always going to have a creature it gets automatic advantage against. By the time they're 4th level they can take Dual Wielder and every time combat starts they get to throw 6d20, probably land all 3 hits, and have a 1/4 chance of seeing a 20 and doubling their Sneak Attack.
> Like I said what you're describing is just classic rogue feature. You can get advantage on initiative and attack without being an assassin.
I know that you always will have initiative advantage. But any character with lucky too. Its not that marking.
Sure, if you're willing to burn your 2-4 luck points on your initiative rolls instead of doing anything else with them, and you're also willing to give up the Alert feat or Actor, and you still wouldn't have the automatic advantage unless you can rig the encounter to start with you hidden, and even then it'd only last until your first attack.
A d6 on average is about 3.5 damage. By level 4 you are essentially getting an extra sneak attack dice without the need to roll it. At level six you are getting two extra dice or one at max damage. Which is a pretty good feature.
Granted other classes gain bonus damage each round.
The old rules didn't give advantage on initiative, which made it much harder both to find a target that hasn't taken a turn yet and to attack someone that's surprised. Even if every single person in your group including the folk in noisy armor rolled high enough on Stealth to beat the highest passive Perception in a monster group, if a surprised monster beat your initiative it would stop being surprised before you could do anything to it. In practice, 2014 Assassins rarely got to use their critical hits.
The 2024 version always helps you. You're guaranteed to have advantage on initiative, you're guaranteed to get bonus Sneak Attack damage, and you're more likely to be able to use advantage on attack rolls.
The opportunity to use it is "every time you enter combat" instead of "once every blue moon." They are not the same. The old version mainly appealed to theorycrafters.
Granted other classes gain bonus damage each round.
So does Rogue, it's called "Sneak Attack", and it scales better than any of the Ranger subclass features for additional damage on hit. Rogues don't get those kinds of ongoing boosts to damage from their subclasses because it's baked into the core class.
The problem is Surprising Strikes ends up being a huge nerf. In 2014 Assassinate was any hit(that is surprised and has not acted yet, only round 1) was automatically a critical hit. So my players level 5 rogue currently does d6+5(dex and +1 short sword) + 3d6 sneak attack. The 2024 PHB Surprising Strikes feature only gives +5 more damage so avg = 24 damage. Now compare that to the 2014 all hits a crits part of the feature(that is surprised and has not acted yet, only round 1) which is much higher! d6+5 + 3d6 crit is 8d6+5 so avg damage = 33. Winner 2014 rules on this feature.
We are keeping the 2024 Advantage on Initiative cause that was needed for this feature.
Both are only on round 1 so there is no argument to be made like "Ya but Surprising Strikes gives you that without having to have surprise!" is of no value if you think through it. IE Less damage for making it only marginally more likely to be used.
Not needing Surprise holds a great deal of value. I don't know what your play experience has been, but it's been a rare occasion where a party I was in actually ambushed someone else and brought Surprised into play- even during a campaign that was supposed to be very subterfuge heavy. You don't want the opening feature of a subclass to be something that only triggers once every 5 or so fights if that, and that's exactly what Assassinate was. Yes, if you compare single instances of damage 2014 looks better, but if you actually compare net damage dealt across a campaign I very much expect it'll swing back the other way.
"Not needing Surprise holds a great deal of value", It actually does not and without numbers to argue your case, this is a non-starter. Show me the numbers please! "Show me the money Jerry!" ;)
If your not using good tactics then I can see why you are seeing it as triggering "1 in 5" fights. Are you approaching each fight as a group and not having the Assassin stealth up ahead of the party as to not have to have the rest of the noisy tanks ruin it for them? Then strike and dash back to the group. Just a partial example of how to bump up your 1 in 5 to 5 in 5, barring the unlikely event(but will happen) that the assassin's stealth rolls fail but when you get reliable talent and have expertise in Stealth it would be very rare that you are not surprising and getting to use it.
Also you miss the point of Assassinate is here; " if you compare single instances of damage 2014 looks better, but if you actually compare net damage dealt across a campaign I very much expect it'll swing back the other way." The point is to one-shot or greatly take out a lot of the targets hit points in one strike.
Show of hands here, how many people have played in groups where "one player runs ahead to start the fight" has been a viable approach?
Hands up. Personally, in all the campaigns i've run or play in decade(s) including previous editions, i would say party ambush is even less than 1/5 combat.
YMMV Some of the reasons is that it's hard to pull off and heavily DM dependant. Party generally don't split up and if sticking together, the non-stealthy characters usually makes it more difficult to succeed without alerting nearby enemies of their presence ahead of combat.
The Assassin is more likely to ambush when scouting alone, which some group of players don't always like when the Rogue constantly try to go about on his own to sneak or steal.
Wanted to start a discussion on what is everybodies interpretation of this specific element of Surprising Strikes,
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/phb-2024/character-classes-continued#Level3Assassinate
Surprising Strikes. During the first round of each combat, you have Advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn. If your Sneak Attack hits any target during that round, the target takes extra damage of the weapon’s type equal to your Rogue level.
So if I Hit with a Shortbow (1d6+ piercing) + Sneak Attach (2d6) and I'm L3 what is this 'extra damage', surely it can't be simply +3 piercing in this context?
That seems low considering I can only use this once in the first round of combat?
+3 damage is perfectly fine at 3rd level for a feature that also gives you advantage on Initiative and advantage (and indirectly increased crit chance) on attack rolls against anyone lower on initiative than you. It goes up every level.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
The Assassinate feature Surprise Strike deals extra damage equal to your Rogue level at the same rate as Sneak Attack which 1/turn, meaning you can potentially do it again on other's turn as Opportunity Attack or other reaction for example.
Nah.
There are couple of options including the hidden rules that already gives advantage on initiative so its a kind of no go.
Compare it to the champion, where you have crit and can gain advantages from other sources too for a whole fight, at least you can feel your choices.
The real problem is its a feature that is usefull ONE round, and will not bring anything you could not get elsewhere like getting that initiative or that advantage via other means.
Its like having no subclass, I dont feel that choice at all. Other subclasses on rogue or on other classes just bring a lot more.
I would have given advantage on all attack against anyone ur higher in the initiative for the whole fight. This way you'll be confronted to strategic choices. Thats kinda what they went for the lvl9 feature, but its just too late. Maybe even limit that to melee, so melee can actually compete with the ranged niche rogue is going to be in.
I understand some choices, giving too much dammage doesnt help for balancing as a dm. If you give too much you take the risk of getting ur whole encounter triviliased on a critical strike. Hence the 'bonus dammage' that dont get multiplied.
In perspective to everything else, playing assassin is not worth it. And I'm not talking on dammage, tho I understand people would like to actually feel they have done some as an 'assassin'. The class is already basically an allin.
I'm gunna disagree on this one, Advantage on Initiative means you can never have Disadvantage, given the new rules for surprise, this is still a good bonus. The extra damage is an increase of around 50% to sneak attack at any given level, sure it's only usable on the first turn of combat but it is still more damage on top of gaining the advantage on initiative, you additionally have advantage on the attacks. There aren't that many sources of advantage on initiative, but there is now an additional source of disadvantage.
Big numbers aren't always needed for features to be impactful but the numbers here scale well to level, which has always been a thing for Rogue's sneak attack damage. Overall I believe it's quiet fine where it is.
You don't always get to start battles your way (e.g. hidden.) The nice thing about Assassins is that their initiative advantage is unconditional.
Yeah but Champions don't have a big pile of d6s to double up on their crits, and have expend some action to get advantage.
A Champion isn't going to get advantage from Vex, Topple, or shoving prone on their first attack. And if they don't hit their first attack or the enemy makes its save, they're not going to get it on their second attack either. If they're relying on a spellcasting buddy for Faerie Fire, they have to wait for their turn, which will probably be lower on initiative. If we're comparing to other Rogue subclasses using Steady Aim, they can't move and lose their Bonus Action.
The Assassin doesn't have those problems. It always has advantage on initiative and it's almost always going to have a creature it gets automatic advantage against. By the time they're 4th level they can take Dual Wielder and every time combat starts they get to throw 6d20, probably land all 3 hits, and have a 1/4 chance of seeing a 20 and doubling their Sneak Attack.
The whole point of the Assassin subclass is to come out swinging hard and cripple or take out an enemy before they even do anything. Maybe it's just not for you.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I know that you always will have initiative advantage. But any character with lucky too. Its not that marking.
The Assassin doesn't have those problems. It always has advantage on initiative and it's almost always going to have a creature it gets automatic advantage against. By the time they're 4th level they can take Dual Wielder and every time combat starts they get to throw 6d20, probably land all 3 hits, and have a 1/4 chance of seeing a 20 and doubling their Sneak Attack.
> Like I said what you're describing is just classic rogue feature. You can get advantage on initiative and attack without being an assassin.
Sure, if you're willing to burn your 2-4 luck points on your initiative rolls instead of doing anything else with them, and you're also willing to give up the Alert feat or Actor, and you still wouldn't have the automatic advantage unless you can rig the encounter to start with you hidden, and even then it'd only last until your first attack.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
A d6 on average is about 3.5 damage. By level 4 you are essentially getting an extra sneak attack dice without the need to roll it. At level six you are getting two extra dice or one at max damage. Which is a pretty good feature.
Granted other classes gain bonus damage each round.
Level 10, using 2 light weapons you deal 20 damage base, at level 20 you do 40, what's the issue? That sounds REALLY good
The old rules didn't give advantage on initiative, which made it much harder both to find a target that hasn't taken a turn yet and to attack someone that's surprised. Even if every single person in your group including the folk in noisy armor rolled high enough on Stealth to beat the highest passive Perception in a monster group, if a surprised monster beat your initiative it would stop being surprised before you could do anything to it. In practice, 2014 Assassins rarely got to use their critical hits.
The 2024 version always helps you. You're guaranteed to have advantage on initiative, you're guaranteed to get bonus Sneak Attack damage, and you're more likely to be able to use advantage on attack rolls.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
The opportunity to use it is "every time you enter combat" instead of "once every blue moon." They are not the same. The old version mainly appealed to theorycrafters.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
So does Rogue, it's called "Sneak Attack", and it scales better than any of the Ranger subclass features for additional damage on hit. Rogues don't get those kinds of ongoing boosts to damage from their subclasses because it's baked into the core class.
The problem is Surprising Strikes ends up being a huge nerf. In 2014 Assassinate was any hit(that is surprised and has not acted yet, only round 1) was automatically a critical hit. So my players level 5 rogue currently does d6+5(dex and +1 short sword) + 3d6 sneak attack. The 2024 PHB Surprising Strikes feature only gives +5 more damage so avg = 24 damage. Now compare that to the 2014 all hits a crits part of the feature(that is surprised and has not acted yet, only round 1) which is much higher! d6+5 + 3d6 crit is 8d6+5 so avg damage = 33. Winner 2014 rules on this feature.
We are keeping the 2024 Advantage on Initiative cause that was needed for this feature.
Both are only on round 1 so there is no argument to be made like "Ya but Surprising Strikes gives you that without having to have surprise!" is of no value if you think through it. IE Less damage for making it only marginally more likely to be used.
As FutureSightRunner said;
Not needing Surprise holds a great deal of value. I don't know what your play experience has been, but it's been a rare occasion where a party I was in actually ambushed someone else and brought Surprised into play- even during a campaign that was supposed to be very subterfuge heavy. You don't want the opening feature of a subclass to be something that only triggers once every 5 or so fights if that, and that's exactly what Assassinate was. Yes, if you compare single instances of damage 2014 looks better, but if you actually compare net damage dealt across a campaign I very much expect it'll swing back the other way.
"Not needing Surprise holds a great deal of value", It actually does not and without numbers to argue your case, this is a non-starter. Show me the numbers please! "Show me the money Jerry!" ;)
If your not using good tactics then I can see why you are seeing it as triggering "1 in 5" fights. Are you approaching each fight as a group and not having the Assassin stealth up ahead of the party as to not have to have the rest of the noisy tanks ruin it for them? Then strike and dash back to the group. Just a partial example of how to bump up your 1 in 5 to 5 in 5, barring the unlikely event(but will happen) that the assassin's stealth rolls fail but when you get reliable talent and have expertise in Stealth it would be very rare that you are not surprising and getting to use it.
Also you miss the point of Assassinate is here; " if you compare single instances of damage 2014 looks better, but if you actually compare net damage dealt across a campaign I very much expect it'll swing back the other way." The point is to one-shot or greatly take out a lot of the targets hit points in one strike.
Show of hands here, how many people have played in groups where "one player runs ahead to start the fight" has been a viable approach?
<referee blows whistle> "Prevalent proof fallacy - Using consensus or majority vote as evidence of truthfulness. 10 yard penalty."
Hands up. Personally, in all the campaigns i've run or play in decade(s) including previous editions, i would say party ambush is even less than 1/5 combat.
YMMV Some of the reasons is that it's hard to pull off and heavily DM dependant. Party generally don't split up and if sticking together, the non-stealthy characters usually makes it more difficult to succeed without alerting nearby enemies of their presence ahead of combat.
The Assassin is more likely to ambush when scouting alone, which some group of players don't always like when the Rogue constantly try to go about on his own to sneak or steal.
Asking how often a theory actually plays out in reality is not a fallacy, it's peer review.