Technically, the spell ends as soon as you let go of the weapon, so it's just 1d4 without proficiency. (I've seen at least one DM ignore that and let Shillelagh be thrown, but we're talking RAW.)
Technically, the spell ends as soon as you let go of the weapon, so it's just 1d4 without proficiency. (I've seen at least one DM ignore that and let Shillelagh be thrown, but we're talking RAW.)
I'd argue the d8 wouldn't apply even if the spell lasted. The d8 damage die is when attacking with it as a quarterstaff, which isn't meant to be thrown. Improvised Weapons rules cover using weapons in a way they aren't meant to be used, and this would apply.
Technically, the spell ends as soon as you let go of the weapon, so it's just 1d4 without proficiency. (I've seen at least one DM ignore that and let Shillelagh be thrown, but we're talking RAW.)
There's still substituting Pact of the Blade for Shillelagh. I presume Pact of the Blade plus Polearm Master would overwrite both the damage type of the original weapon and prevent Pact of the Blade from changing the damage type. Then we could get into the question of Improvised Weapons.
I feel like the Shillelagh ruling in Sage Advice is written for balance but defended as if quarterstaffs had only one striking end. Every part of a quarterstaff is a striking surface. Some may have reinforced ends, but they remain weapons you can use to strike with ends or thrust with.
Polestrike seems to me like a Soul Knife's psychic blade, an independent weapon created by the Polearm Master feature. I don't know if that was their reasoning, but perhaps it makes sense mechanically that way. If Polestrike is an independent weapon (just exploring the possibility), then Pact Weapon, Shillelagh and +X bonuses would not apply.
Polestrike seems to me like a Soul Knife's psychic blade, an independent weapon created by the Polearm Master feature.
Sorry i have no clue where you are getting that thought? Can you be making this action up out of thin air? Maybe you are extremely biased, trying to justify the use of pole strike or is it PAM and looking for any reason to get more damage then a d4.
Polestrike seems to me like a Soul Knife's psychic blade, an independent weapon created by the Polearm Master feature. I don't know if that was their reasoning, but perhaps it makes sense mechanically that way. If Polestrike is an independent weapon (just exploring the possibility), then Pact Weapon, Shillelagh and +X bonuses would not apply.
I see them as very different things. Psychic Blade is an energy you manifest which vanishes immediately after it hits or misses, meanwhile Pole Strike is a BA melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon. We already know from the Devs the feat is intended to add your Ability Modifier and magic weapon bonus from as early as 2014;
@MikeGBenson Does a player using the polearm master feat add strength to the damage roll of the bonus attack?
@JeremyECrawford Yep!
@Il_Gama Polearm Master: does the bonus of a magic weapon apply to the opposite end damage?
Technically, the spell ends as soon as you let go of the weapon, so it's just 1d4 without proficiency. (I've seen at least one DM ignore that and let Shillelagh be thrown, but we're talking RAW.)
There's still substituting Pact of the Blade for Shillelagh. I presume Pact of the Blade plus Polearm Master would overwrite both the damage type of the original weapon and prevent Pact of the Blade from changing the damage type. Then we could get into the question of Improvised Weapons.
I feel like the Shillelagh ruling in Sage Advice is written for balance but defended as if quarterstaffs had only one striking end. Every part of a quarterstaff is a striking surface. Some may have reinforced ends, but they remain weapons you can use to strike with ends or thrust with.
AFAIK, the arguments have been primarily mechanical. You could conceptualize it as being able to get a little extra swing in, but not at full force.
(Really, it's due to tacking quarterstaff onto an ability constructed for typical polearms.)
Polestrike seems to me like a Soul Knife's psychic blade, an independent weapon created by the Polearm Master feature. I don't know if that was their reasoning, but perhaps it makes sense mechanically that way. If Polestrike is an independent weapon (just exploring the possibility), then Pact Weapon, Shillelagh and +X bonuses would not apply.
The ability is explicit that the attack is being made with the weapon. Barring anything saying explicitly otherwise, it's not unreasonable to assume that all the weapon's properties apply, save where they're explicitly overridden by PAM. But, like the improvised use of a magic weapon, it's not clearly wrong to say they don't apply. (But you can't argue it on a realism basis, because then you'd have to let it apply to the quarterstaff's pole strike, since that's a use within the staff's normal scope.)
Polestrike seems to me like a Soul Knife's psychic blade, an independent weapon created by the Polearm Master feature. I don't know if that was their reasoning, but perhaps it makes sense mechanically that way. If Polestrike is an independent weapon (just exploring the possibility), then Pact Weapon, Shillelagh and +X bonuses would not apply.
I see them as very different things. Psychic Blade is an energy you manifest which vanishes immediately after it hits or misses, meanwhile Pole Strike is a BA melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon. We already know from the Devs the feat is intended to add your Ability Modifier and magic weapon bonus from as early as 2014;
@MikeGBenson Does a player using the polearm master feat add strength to the damage roll of the bonus attack?
@JeremyECrawford Yep!
@Il_Gama Polearm Master: does the bonus of a magic weapon apply to the opposite end damage?
@JeremyECrawford Yes, it applies.
That's just Jeremy Crawford's opinion and hasn't been included in Sage Advice. It indicates RAI at best, but he has not always been correct. What Psychic Blades represents fluff-wise doesn't really matter. I feel like Polestrike is actually designed as if it was an independent attack. It's a theory. If it was an attack with the weapon, I should be able to change the damage die of Polestrike by changing the weapon damage, but I can't because the damage is independent of weapon. I would question whether a Polestrike with a Pact Weapon or Shillelagh can deal Force, Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage or if it is forced to deal Bludgeoning damage.
The rule treats quarterstaffs as if they were large clubs. They probably assume that they are wizard staffs or walking sticks that people are using to bonk their enemies and never considering the use of a dedicated weapon. Like the Psychic Blades, that doesn't technically matter, but I think the ruling they made in Sage Advice creates a potentially problematic scenario. It appears to only affect Quarterstaffs, but it might set precedents for other scenarios.
That's just Jeremy Crawford's opinion and hasn't been included in Sage Advice. It indicates RAI at best, but he has not always been correct. What Psychic Blades represents fluff-wise doesn't really matter. I feel like Polestrike is actually designed as if it was an independent attack. It's a theory. If it was an attack with the weapon, I should be able to change the damage die of Polestrike by changing the weapon damage, but I can't because the damage is independent of weapon. I would question whether a Polestrike with a Pact Weapon or Shillelagh can deal Force, Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage or if it is forced to deal Bludgeoning damage.
The rule treats quarterstaffs as if they were large clubs. They probably assume that they are wizard staffs or walking sticks that people are using to bonk their enemies and never considering the use of a dedicated weapon. Like the Psychic Blades, that doesn't technically matter, but I think the ruling they made in Sage Advice creates a potentially problematic scenario. It appears to only affect Quarterstaffs, but it might set precedents for other scenarios.
Can I add my Strength modifier to the damage of the bonus attack that Polearm Master gives me?
Yes. For the feat’s bonus attack, you add your ability modifier to the attack roll, as you do whenever you attack with that weapon, and if you hit, you add the same ability modifier to the damage roll, which is normal for weapon damage rolls. A specific rule, such as the Light property, might break the general rule by telling you not to add your ability modifier to the damage. Polearm Master doesn’t have such a rule.
What Psychic Blades represents fluff-wise doesn't really matter. I feel like Polestrike is actually designed as if it was an independent attack. It's a theory. If it was an attack with the weapon, I should be able to change the damage die of Polestrike by changing the weapon damage, but I can't because the damage is independent of weapon. I would question whether a Polestrike with a Pact Weapon or Shillelagh can deal Force, Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage or if it is forced to deal Bludgeoning damage.
The Pole Strike is an independent attack, its a Bonus Action melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon specifically. The weapon deals Bludgeoning damage, and the weapon’s damage die for this attack is a d4. WoTC official ruling RAW Polearm Master is more specific than Shillelaghfor this attack. Without Sage Advice though, i think there could be a case for the spell to take precedence.
If it was your Pact Weapon as well then i believe Pole Strike could use your Charisma and deal 1d4 Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage or its normal damage type until a Sage Advice official ruling otherwise.
What Psychic Blades represents fluff-wise doesn't really matter. I feel like Polestrike is actually designed as if it was an independent attack. It's a theory. If it was an attack with the weapon, I should be able to change the damage die of Polestrike by changing the weapon damage, but I can't because the damage is independent of weapon. I would question whether a Polestrike with a Pact Weapon or Shillelagh can deal Force, Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage or if it is forced to deal Bludgeoning damage.
The Pole Strike is an independent attack, its a Bonus Action melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon specifically. The weapon deals Bludgeoning damage, and the weapon’s damage die for this attack is a d4. WoTC official ruling RAW Polearm Master is more specific than Shillelaghfor this attack. Without Sage Advice though, i think there could be a case for the spell to take precedence.
If it was your Pact Weapon as well then i believe Pole Strike could use your Charisma and deal 1d4 Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage or its normal damage type until a Sage Advice official ruling otherwise.
That's part of my problem with the Sage Advice ruling. Before, it could swing either way (does that count as a pun?), now it creates a potential precedence for Polearm Master's Bludgeoning damage overriding any changes to damage types.
I find the Sage Advice ruling (from 2014) nonsensical. Under normal conditions, when you've got two effects you can decide which order they take place. So you should be able to choose to apply either the d4 or the Shillelagh damage first.
However, it can certainly be argued that Shillelagh only applies to the 'front' of the weapon. In which case, you'd rule that your attacks were all with the Shillelagh dice, force damage and your casting stat - except the Pole Strike, which would be d4 Bludgeoning with your normal attack stat. Except that's not what the Sage Advice ruling says. It claims that all the various effects of Shillelagh apply to the Pole Strike except the damage dice.
I can't find any reasonable justification for that ruling.
I find the Sage Advice ruling (from 2014) nonsensical. Under normal conditions, when you've got two effects you can decide which order they take place. So you should be able to choose to apply either the d4 or the Shillelagh damage first.
However, it can certainly be argued that Shillelagh only applies to the 'front' of the weapon. In which case, you'd rule that your attacks were all with the Shillelagh dice, force damage and your casting stat - except the Pole Strike, which would be d4 Bludgeoning with your normal attack stat. Except that's not what the Sage Advice ruling says. It claims that all the various effects of Shillelagh apply to the Pole Strike except the damage dice.
I can't find any reasonable justification for that ruling.
Feels like an order of operations thing. Shillelagh applies to the weapon in general. The BA attack overrides the already overridden value for a short duration.
While i see your point, i don't think this Sage Advice creates a precendence for other game feature but the one it answers for.
For it to override only the one thing would be extremely weird. The exact same arguments why it prevails apply to the other aspects.
This Sage Advice is a Q&A specifically on Polearm Master & shillelagh and nothing else, so it doesn't answer any other aspect not discussed herein.
This is only so if rulings don't have principles behind them that can be inferred. It's possible to play that way, but it makes reasoning about the rules impossible -- if there's no ruling, you just have to go with what feels right.
If you want to treat the rules as a knowable system, then you must be able to reason not just from the printed rules, but also the rulings that exist.
Minimum assumption: there is reason to argue that PAM overrides the spell in other aspects of the attack where it makes assertions about the attack's properties. Specifically, the damage type. If you want to argue it doesn't prevail, you need an explicit reason why not.*
Only slightly less strong assumption: Pole attack also overrides the damage die-override of other abilities. For instance, the very weird monk who took PAM would only do a d4 with pole strike, no matter what their martial arts die is. Again, to make the argument it doesn't follow the precedent, you need a solid argument why not. **
More generally, it speaks as to how conflicts between abilities are supposed to be resolved. This is important and useful, because we have nearly nothing in straight text about the topic. Drawing out underlying principles should be done with caution, and one must be willing to adjust one's model if it's contradicted by official sources, but it's useful to do -- it makes ruling on the fly easier, and means that your rulings at the table will be consistent, which means that the players can reason about how you'll rule on things.
In an ideal world, it would be possible to have a fully-functioning rule model in one's head. We do not live anywhere close to that world, nor will we ever. (Besides the necessary incompleteness due to the nature of the game, I'n unconvinced any of the designers has ever had a complete rule model.). But it's still useful to try.
* There is a reason one can argue, but I choose not to go into it here, because it only confuses the point.
While i see your point, i don't think this Sage Advice creates a precendence for other game feature but the one it answers for.
For it to override only the one thing would be extremely weird. The exact same arguments why it prevails apply to the other aspects.
This Sage Advice is a Q&A specifically on Polearm Master & shillelagh and nothing else, so it doesn't answer any other aspect not discussed herein.
It applies to that combination and all similarly worded rules. Let's create a hypothetical spell that changes a sword to 2D6 Radiant Damage for 1 minute, increasing damage at higher levels +1D6 at 5th, and so on. Then let's have a feat called Close Combat Duelist with a Pommel Strike that deals bludgeoning damage with the pommel of the weapon as a Bonus Action. The damage is 1D4 for this attack.
If there is a question about the damage, the Shillelagh ruling will tell us that pommel strike overrides the spell. The more a combination deviates from the exact wording of Shillelagh and Polearm Master, the less the ruling applies, but it will still define a precedence as long as there is some similarity. And, unlike a sword (most swords), a quarterstaff two striking ends and both are enchanted by Shillelagh.
I find the Sage Advice ruling (from 2014) nonsensical. Under normal conditions, when you've got two effects you can decide which order they take place. So you should be able to choose to apply either the d4 or the Shillelagh damage first.
However, it can certainly be argued that Shillelagh only applies to the 'front' of the weapon. In which case, you'd rule that your attacks were all with the Shillelagh dice, force damage and your casting stat - except the Pole Strike, which would be d4 Bludgeoning with your normal attack stat. Except that's not what the Sage Advice ruling says. It claims that all the various effects of Shillelagh apply to the Pole Strike except the damage dice.
I can't find any reasonable justification for that ruling.
Feels like an order of operations thing. Shillelagh applies to the weapon in general. The BA attack overrides the already overridden value for a short duration.
I understand this argument. However, if it's overriding the damage die type in this manner, it should also override everything else - the damage type and the stat used. To override just one aspect of Shillelagh and not any of the others doesn't make sense.
You can also draw parallels with other rules. Let's say I'm a Centaur College of Dance Bard. College of Dance allows me to make Dex-based Unarmed Attacks for my Bardic Inspiration die. Centaur allows me to make Strength-based Unarmed Attacks for d6. Centaur also allows me to make a Bonus Action Unarmed Attack if I charge first. But if I charge and decide to use that ability, I can still use my Dex-based Bardic Inspiration die attack rather than the Strength-based d6. I get to pick. Why is Shillelagh different?
I find the Sage Advice ruling (from 2014) nonsensical. Under normal conditions, when you've got two effects you can decide which order they take place. So you should be able to choose to apply either the d4 or the Shillelagh damage first.
However, it can certainly be argued that Shillelagh only applies to the 'front' of the weapon. In which case, you'd rule that your attacks were all with the Shillelagh dice, force damage and your casting stat - except the Pole Strike, which would be d4 Bludgeoning with your normal attack stat. Except that's not what the Sage Advice ruling says. It claims that all the various effects of Shillelagh apply to the Pole Strike except the damage dice.
I can't find any reasonable justification for that ruling.
Feels like an order of operations thing. Shillelagh applies to the weapon in general. The BA attack overrides the already overridden value for a short duration.
I understand this argument. However, if it's overriding the damage die type in this manner, it should also override everything else - the damage type and the stat used. To override just one aspect of Shillelagh and not any of the others doesn't make sense.
Another way to think about this, btw, is that a "shillelagh" in the real world is a stick with a knob on one end. So a quarterstaff-turned-shillelagh would have a knob on only one end --- a knob that increases in size as the shillelagh die increases.
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Technically, the spell ends as soon as you let go of the weapon, so it's just 1d4 without proficiency. (I've seen at least one DM ignore that and let Shillelagh be thrown, but we're talking RAW.)
Oh yeah you're right i forgot that.
I'd argue the d8 wouldn't apply even if the spell lasted. The d8 damage die is when attacking with it as a quarterstaff, which isn't meant to be thrown. Improvised Weapons rules cover using weapons in a way they aren't meant to be used, and this would apply.
There's still substituting Pact of the Blade for Shillelagh. I presume Pact of the Blade plus Polearm Master would overwrite both the damage type of the original weapon and prevent Pact of the Blade from changing the damage type. Then we could get into the question of Improvised Weapons.
I feel like the Shillelagh ruling in Sage Advice is written for balance but defended as if quarterstaffs had only one striking end. Every part of a quarterstaff is a striking surface. Some may have reinforced ends, but they remain weapons you can use to strike with ends or thrust with.
Polestrike seems to me like a Soul Knife's psychic blade, an independent weapon created by the Polearm Master feature. I don't know if that was their reasoning, but perhaps it makes sense mechanically that way. If Polestrike is an independent weapon (just exploring the possibility), then Pact Weapon, Shillelagh and +X bonuses would not apply.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Polestrike seems to me like a Soul Knife's psychic blade, an independent weapon created by the Polearm Master feature.
Sorry i have no clue where you are getting that thought? Can you be making this action up out of thin air? Maybe you are extremely biased, trying to justify the use of pole strike or is it PAM and looking for any reason to get more damage then a d4.
I see them as very different things. Psychic Blade is an energy you manifest which vanishes immediately after it hits or misses, meanwhile Pole Strike is a BA melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon. We already know from the Devs the feat is intended to add your Ability Modifier and magic weapon bonus from as early as 2014;
AFAIK, the arguments have been primarily mechanical. You could conceptualize it as being able to get a little extra swing in, but not at full force.
(Really, it's due to tacking quarterstaff onto an ability constructed for typical polearms.)
The ability is explicit that the attack is being made with the weapon. Barring anything saying explicitly otherwise, it's not unreasonable to assume that all the weapon's properties apply, save where they're explicitly overridden by PAM. But, like the improvised use of a magic weapon, it's not clearly wrong to say they don't apply. (But you can't argue it on a realism basis, because then you'd have to let it apply to the quarterstaff's pole strike, since that's a use within the staff's normal scope.)
That's just Jeremy Crawford's opinion and hasn't been included in Sage Advice. It indicates RAI at best, but he has not always been correct. What Psychic Blades represents fluff-wise doesn't really matter. I feel like Polestrike is actually designed as if it was an independent attack. It's a theory. If it was an attack with the weapon, I should be able to change the damage die of Polestrike by changing the weapon damage, but I can't because the damage is independent of weapon. I would question whether a Polestrike with a Pact Weapon or Shillelagh can deal Force, Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage or if it is forced to deal Bludgeoning damage.
The rule treats quarterstaffs as if they were large clubs. They probably assume that they are wizard staffs or walking sticks that people are using to bonk their enemies and never considering the use of a dedicated weapon. Like the Psychic Blades, that doesn't technically matter, but I think the ruling they made in Sage Advice creates a potentially problematic scenario. It appears to only affect Quarterstaffs, but it might set precedents for other scenarios.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Part of it was added to Sage Advice Compendium
The Pole Strike is an independent attack, its a Bonus Action melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon specifically. The weapon deals Bludgeoning damage, and the weapon’s damage die for this attack is a d4. WoTC official ruling RAW Polearm Master is more specific than Shillelagh for this attack. Without Sage Advice though, i think there could be a case for the spell to take precedence.
If it was your Pact Weapon as well then i believe Pole Strike could use your Charisma and deal 1d4 Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage or its normal damage type until a Sage Advice official ruling otherwise.
That's part of my problem with the Sage Advice ruling. Before, it could swing either way (does that count as a pun?), now it creates a potential precedence for Polearm Master's Bludgeoning damage overriding any changes to damage types.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
While i see your point, i don't think this Sage Advice creates a precendence for other game feature but the one it answers for.
For it to override only the one thing would be extremely weird. The exact same arguments why it prevails apply to the other aspects.
I find the Sage Advice ruling (from 2014) nonsensical. Under normal conditions, when you've got two effects you can decide which order they take place. So you should be able to choose to apply either the d4 or the Shillelagh damage first.
However, it can certainly be argued that Shillelagh only applies to the 'front' of the weapon. In which case, you'd rule that your attacks were all with the Shillelagh dice, force damage and your casting stat - except the Pole Strike, which would be d4 Bludgeoning with your normal attack stat. Except that's not what the Sage Advice ruling says. It claims that all the various effects of Shillelagh apply to the Pole Strike except the damage dice.
I can't find any reasonable justification for that ruling.
This Sage Advice is a Q&A specifically on Polearm Master & shillelagh and nothing else, so it doesn't answer any other aspect not discussed herein.
Feels like an order of operations thing. Shillelagh applies to the weapon in general. The BA attack overrides the already overridden value for a short duration.
This is only so if rulings don't have principles behind them that can be inferred. It's possible to play that way, but it makes reasoning about the rules impossible -- if there's no ruling, you just have to go with what feels right.
If you want to treat the rules as a knowable system, then you must be able to reason not just from the printed rules, but also the rulings that exist.
Minimum assumption: there is reason to argue that PAM overrides the spell in other aspects of the attack where it makes assertions about the attack's properties. Specifically, the damage type. If you want to argue it doesn't prevail, you need an explicit reason why not.*
Only slightly less strong assumption: Pole attack also overrides the damage die-override of other abilities. For instance, the very weird monk who took PAM would only do a d4 with pole strike, no matter what their martial arts die is. Again, to make the argument it doesn't follow the precedent, you need a solid argument why not. **
More generally, it speaks as to how conflicts between abilities are supposed to be resolved. This is important and useful, because we have nearly nothing in straight text about the topic. Drawing out underlying principles should be done with caution, and one must be willing to adjust one's model if it's contradicted by official sources, but it's useful to do -- it makes ruling on the fly easier, and means that your rulings at the table will be consistent, which means that the players can reason about how you'll rule on things.
In an ideal world, it would be possible to have a fully-functioning rule model in one's head. We do not live anywhere close to that world, nor will we ever. (Besides the necessary incompleteness due to the nature of the game, I'n unconvinced any of the designers has ever had a complete rule model.). But it's still useful to try.
* There is a reason one can argue, but I choose not to go into it here, because it only confuses the point.
** I can see none
It applies to that combination and all similarly worded rules. Let's create a hypothetical spell that changes a sword to 2D6 Radiant Damage for 1 minute, increasing damage at higher levels +1D6 at 5th, and so on. Then let's have a feat called Close Combat Duelist with a Pommel Strike that deals bludgeoning damage with the pommel of the weapon as a Bonus Action. The damage is 1D4 for this attack.
If there is a question about the damage, the Shillelagh ruling will tell us that pommel strike overrides the spell. The more a combination deviates from the exact wording of Shillelagh and Polearm Master, the less the ruling applies, but it will still define a precedence as long as there is some similarity. And, unlike a sword (most swords), a quarterstaff two striking ends and both are enchanted by Shillelagh.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I understand this argument. However, if it's overriding the damage die type in this manner, it should also override everything else - the damage type and the stat used. To override just one aspect of Shillelagh and not any of the others doesn't make sense.
You can also draw parallels with other rules. Let's say I'm a Centaur College of Dance Bard. College of Dance allows me to make Dex-based Unarmed Attacks for my Bardic Inspiration die. Centaur allows me to make Strength-based Unarmed Attacks for d6. Centaur also allows me to make a Bonus Action Unarmed Attack if I charge first. But if I charge and decide to use that ability, I can still use my Dex-based Bardic Inspiration die attack rather than the Strength-based d6. I get to pick. Why is Shillelagh different?
Pole strike doesn't specify the stat used.
Another way to think about this, btw, is that a "shillelagh" in the real world is a stick with a knob on one end. So a quarterstaff-turned-shillelagh would have a knob on only one end --- a knob that increases in size as the shillelagh die increases.