Is there anything I'm missing that stops an elements monk from grappling an enemy at range?
I don't think this is broken or anything, just nifty.
Reach. When you make an Unarmed Strike, your reach is 10 feet greater than normal, as elemental energy extends from you.
Unarmed Strike
Instead of using a weapon to make a melee attack, you can use a punch, kick, head-butt, or similar forceful blow. In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike—a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you.
Whenever you use your Unarmed Strike, choose one of the following options for its effect.
Damage. You make an attack roll against the target. Your bonus to the roll equals your Strength modifier plus your Proficiency Bonus. On a hit, the target takes Bludgeoning damage equal to 1 plus your Strength modifier.
Grapple. The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or it has the Grappledcondition. The DC for the saving throw and any escape attempts equals 8 plus your Strength modifier and Proficiency Bonus. This grapple is possible only if the target is no more than one size larger than you and if you have a hand free to grab it.
Grappling
A creature can grapple another creature. Characters typically grapple by using an Unarmed Strike. Many monsters have special attacks that allow them to quickly grapple prey. However a grapple is initiated, it follows these rules. See also“Unarmed Strike” and “Grappled.”
Grappled Condition. Successfully grappling a creature gives it the Grappled condition.
One Grapple per Hand. A creature must have a hand free to grapple another creature. Some stat blocks and game effects allow a creature to grapple using a tentacle, a maw, or another body part. Whatever part a grappler uses, it can grapple only one creature at a time with that part, and the grappler can’t use that part to target another creature unless it ends the grapple.
You can grapple a creature with the reach, but as soon as the attack ends, your range is no longer at that reach (the reach is for the duration of the attack only), so the grappled condition would immediately end making it a pointless action. Perhaps there is some edge case where there might be some some use for it but I don't see it.
You can grapple a creature with the reach, but as soon as the attack ends, your range is no longer at that reach (the reach is for the duration of the attack only), so the grappled condition would immediately end making it a pointless action. Perhaps there is some edge case where there might be some some use for it but I don't see it.
True. But if you were able to pull them to you you could keep them grappled, I would think. Defeats the point of reach if you are trying to keep your distance. But if you want to move an opponent away from and ally or closer to you and a melee ally or keep someone from escaping etc.could be good
You can grapple a creature with the reach, but as soon as the attack ends, your range is no longer at that reach (the reach is for the duration of the attack only), so the grappled condition would immediately end making it a pointless action. Perhaps there is some edge case where there might be some some use for it but I don't see it.
The reach of my unarmed attacks is still 15 feet as I read it, though I do see the ambiguity.
Furthermore,
Escaping a Grapple. A Grappled creature can use its action to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the grapple’s escape DC, ending the condition on itself on a success. The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range.
The grapple's range was 15 feet. As I read it, the relevant question is not the grappler's current reach, but the reach of the grapple that was used.
I've now downgraded from "this definitely works" to "not fully clear, because they're a bit sloppy".
It's definitely not as clear as it should be but considering the energy stays for the duration of the effect, I think it's reasonable that this is an intentional feature.
Is it really the grapple's original range, or the free hand you need for the grapple? I'd argue the need for a free hand would also mean that maintaining a grapple requires them to be within reach of said hand.
You can grapple a creature with the reach, but as soon as the attack ends, your range is no longer at that reach (the reach is for the duration of the attack only), so the grappled condition would immediately end making it a pointless action. Perhaps there is some edge case where there might be some some use for it but I don't see it.
Conceding that the monk's ability is worded that way, I can see how you made this conclusion (that you only have reach when making an attack).
I would argue, however, the rules don't say someone's reach changes at any point in the round. For example, I don't think anyone would argue that someone wielding a pike has Reach when they attack but not when they're not attacking. It's a pike. It's always 12 feet long. It doesn't shrink after you roll your attack roll and embiggen when someone tries to run away from you.
And the pike's Reach weapon property is worded the same as the monk's ability:
"Reach: A Reach weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it, as well as when determining your reach for Opportunity Attacks with it." By the literal logic of that sentence, you don't have Reach when you're not attacking or you're not determining an opportunity attack. I really don't think anyone would say the pike's reach changes at any point in the round. So why would the reach change for the monk's ability?
In other words, I think the rule is worded awkwardly.
And, frankly, I as DM would let the monk grapple at range for the simple reason that they need all the cool stuff they can get. Even with the improvements in 5e24, they're not overpowered. Plus this sounds cool as hell.
The D&D Beyond article about the Elements monk mentions using the reach to grapple and keep enemies at bay since their speed is now zero (https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1763-warrior-of-the-elements-monk-bend-the-elements-to) and seeing as Grapple is now a subset of unarmed strike, I would say that the additional reach for unarmed strike would apply as long as the grapple was active, as it's effectively an ongoing unarmed strike.
The D&D Beyond article about the Elements monk mentions using the reach to grapple and keep enemies at bay since their speed is now zero (https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1763-warrior-of-the-elements-monk-bend-the-elements-to) and seeing as Grapple is now a subset of unarmed strike, I would say that the additional reach for unarmed strike would apply as long as the grapple was active, as it's effectively an ongoing unarmed strike.
Yes, I also agree that it seems to be an intended interaction:
... the new Grappler feat combines exceptionally well with the Warrior of the Elements' extended reach and the 2024 Monk's ability to grapple using Dexterity ...
This feature uses the special elemental energy around you, and to me, that could be the reason if a worldbuilding explanation is needed :D
Grapple is an effect of the Unarmed Strike. While Elemental Attunement is active, if the reach of your Unarmed Strike is 15 feet and you use the Grapple effect successfully, the target has the Grappled condition, and the grapple's range is therefore 15 feet while the energy lasts for 10 minutes.
You can grapple a creature with the reach, but as soon as the attack ends, your range is no longer at that reach (the reach is for the duration of the attack only), so the grappled condition would immediately end making it a pointless action. Perhaps there is some edge case where there might be some some use for it but I don't see it.
The reach of my unarmed attacks is still 15 feet as I read it, though I do see the ambiguity.
Furthermore,
Escaping a Grapple. A Grappled creature can use its action to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the grapple’s escape DC, ending the condition on itself on a success. The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range.
The grapple's range was 15 feet. As I read it, the relevant question is not the grappler's current reach, but the reach of the grapple that was used.
I've now downgraded from "this definitely works" to "not fully clear, because they're a bit sloppy".
It's definitely not clear, it might be intended that you can grapple with it but they haven't really said what a grapple's range even is, unless I am missing something (wouldn't be the first time), that has to be inferred. It could very well be that the grapple range is set to whatever the attack was made with but then it enters an odd state that if for some reason you lost elemental attunement (i.e. 10 minutes ran out).
I feel like, if it's intended (as per MaverickWolf's post) they should really Errata in, in the future that grappling range is extended by the same distance, for the duration of elemental attunement, would clear it up nicely.
Alas RAW it does not work. The added reach extends only for the moment of attack so the grapple would end as the attack does. The only exception is if you manage to pull an enemy within 5ft of you to maintain the grapple. *When you make an unarmed attack* is an extremely clear duration for the extended reach. The only evidence to the contrary is the D&D beyond article, specifically the "reach out and grab em" section but those are not written by designers and have frequently been wrong beforehand. wish it was otherwise but as written it does not persist. You also don't have reach 15ft for opportunity attacks.
To make it clearer think of the following example: A druid becomes an octopus and grapples with their 15ft tentacle. If the element monk can grapple at range even though their unarmed attack reach is back to 5ft then the druid could turn back to a humanoid and still maintain that grapple even though there's absolutely nothing holding the target.
The D&D beyond article doesn't hold any authority and the wording explicitly says the range persists for the attack only.
It's definitely not clear, it might be intended that you can grapple with it but they haven't really said what a grapple's range even is, unless I am missing something (wouldn't be the first time), that has to be inferred. It could very well be that the grapple range is set to whatever the attack was made with but then it enters an odd state that if for some reason you lost elemental attunement (i.e. 10 minutes ran out).
Grappling is now part of unarmed attack. The reach of unarmed attack is the reach of grapple. If your reach drops because the effect runs out, it ought to lose the grapple. (But again, slightly sloppy wording, although "a character's reach can change during a grapple" is an easy edge case to forget about; I really can't blame them for that one.)
It's definitely not clear, it might be intended that you can grapple with it but they haven't really said what a grapple's range even is, unless I am missing something (wouldn't be the first time), that has to be inferred. It could very well be that the grapple range is set to whatever the attack was made with but then it enters an odd state that if for some reason you lost elemental attunement (i.e. 10 minutes ran out).
Grappling is now part of unarmed attack. The reach of unarmed attack is the reach of grapple. If your reach drops because the effect runs out, it ought to lose the grapple. (But again, slightly sloppy wording, although "a character's reach can change during a grapple" is an easy edge case to forget about; I really can't blame them for that one.)
Nail on the head here - folks keep mentioning grapple range but that's inherently tied in with unarmed range now. Thinking it stays static while the other doesn't is at best wishful thinking.
Is there anything I'm missing that stops an elements monk from grappling an enemy at range?
I don't think this is broken or anything, just nifty.
You can grapple a creature with the reach, but as soon as the attack ends, your range is no longer at that reach (the reach is for the duration of the attack only), so the grappled condition would immediately end making it a pointless action. Perhaps there is some edge case where there might be some some use for it but I don't see it.
True. But if you were able to pull them to you you could keep them grappled, I would think. Defeats the point of reach if you are trying to keep your distance. But if you want to move an opponent away from and ally or closer to you and a melee ally or keep someone from escaping etc.could be good
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
The reach of my unarmed attacks is still 15 feet as I read it, though I do see the ambiguity.
Furthermore,
The grapple's range was 15 feet. As I read it, the relevant question is not the grappler's current reach, but the reach of the grapple that was used.
I've now downgraded from "this definitely works" to "not fully clear, because they're a bit sloppy".
It's definitely not as clear as it should be but considering the energy stays for the duration of the effect, I think it's reasonable that this is an intentional feature.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Is it really the grapple's original range, or the free hand you need for the grapple? I'd argue the need for a free hand would also mean that maintaining a grapple requires them to be within reach of said hand.
Conceding that the monk's ability is worded that way, I can see how you made this conclusion (that you only have reach when making an attack).
I would argue, however, the rules don't say someone's reach changes at any point in the round. For example, I don't think anyone would argue that someone wielding a pike has Reach when they attack but not when they're not attacking. It's a pike. It's always 12 feet long. It doesn't shrink after you roll your attack roll and embiggen when someone tries to run away from you.
And the pike's Reach weapon property is worded the same as the monk's ability:
"Reach: A Reach weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it, as well as when determining your reach for Opportunity Attacks with it." By the literal logic of that sentence, you don't have Reach when you're not attacking or you're not determining an opportunity attack. I really don't think anyone would say the pike's reach changes at any point in the round. So why would the reach change for the monk's ability?
In other words, I think the rule is worded awkwardly.
And, frankly, I as DM would let the monk grapple at range for the simple reason that they need all the cool stuff they can get. Even with the improvements in 5e24, they're not overpowered. Plus this sounds cool as hell.
The D&D Beyond article about the Elements monk mentions using the reach to grapple and keep enemies at bay since their speed is now zero (https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1763-warrior-of-the-elements-monk-bend-the-elements-to) and seeing as Grapple is now a subset of unarmed strike, I would say that the additional reach for unarmed strike would apply as long as the grapple was active, as it's effectively an ongoing unarmed strike.
Yes, I also agree that it seems to be an intended interaction:
This feature uses the special elemental energy around you, and to me, that could be the reason if a worldbuilding explanation is needed :D
Grapple is an effect of the Unarmed Strike. While Elemental Attunement is active, if the reach of your Unarmed Strike is 15 feet and you use the Grapple effect successfully, the target has the Grappled condition, and the grapple's range is therefore 15 feet while the energy lasts for 10 minutes.
It's definitely not clear, it might be intended that you can grapple with it but they haven't really said what a grapple's range even is, unless I am missing something (wouldn't be the first time), that has to be inferred. It could very well be that the grapple range is set to whatever the attack was made with but then it enters an odd state that if for some reason you lost elemental attunement (i.e. 10 minutes ran out).
I feel like, if it's intended (as per MaverickWolf's post) they should really Errata in, in the future that grappling range is extended by the same distance, for the duration of elemental attunement, would clear it up nicely.
Alas RAW it does not work. The added reach extends only for the moment of attack so the grapple would end as the attack does. The only exception is if you manage to pull an enemy within 5ft of you to maintain the grapple. *When you make an unarmed attack* is an extremely clear duration for the extended reach. The only evidence to the contrary is the D&D beyond article, specifically the "reach out and grab em" section but those are not written by designers and have frequently been wrong beforehand. wish it was otherwise but as written it does not persist. You also don't have reach 15ft for opportunity attacks.
To make it clearer think of the following example: A druid becomes an octopus and grapples with their 15ft tentacle. If the element monk can grapple at range even though their unarmed attack reach is back to 5ft then the druid could turn back to a humanoid and still maintain that grapple even though there's absolutely nothing holding the target.
The D&D beyond article doesn't hold any authority and the wording explicitly says the range persists for the attack only.
Grappling is now part of unarmed attack. The reach of unarmed attack is the reach of grapple. If your reach drops because the effect runs out, it ought to lose the grapple. (But again, slightly sloppy wording, although "a character's reach can change during a grapple" is an easy edge case to forget about; I really can't blame them for that one.)
Nail on the head here - folks keep mentioning grapple range but that's inherently tied in with unarmed range now. Thinking it stays static while the other doesn't is at best wishful thinking.
you got it... although to hold a grapple... You have to stay in range of the grapple.
Also made a token to show how it looks in my head.
Nice heroforge! That's some good posing.