Hello! I have a question that pertains to the thread title...
Question: If you make an attack with one weapon, and then use a Nick weapon with Pact of Blade to do another attack, can you use that same Pact Weapon to make a third attack with Thirsting Blade?
Context: A situation came to mind when reading about dual-wielding, spells, and abilities that change the modifier of your weapon attacks. One thing I noticed with the new Warlock updates, which I think is cool--unless I'm interpreting the rules incorrectly--, is that you can dual-wield a Pact of The Tome Shillelagh Club and a Pact of The Blade Nick weapon. Of course, you need weapon masteries, but it looks like you can be a dual-wielding melee attacker that uses their charisma (see example 1).
Example 1 (Warlock 2, Paladin/Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger 1):
Turn 0: Use Pact of the Blade to conjure a Scimitar or any weapon with the Nick property.
Turn 1: Use a bonus action to cast Shillelagh on your Club (*see note).
1. Use your attack action with your Shillelagh Club
2. As part of the attack action, use your Pact of the Blade Scimitar using Nick, to make another attack.
*Note: I do know the wording for Shillelagh says you have to be holding it. If I was DM'ing, I would rule it's fine since you equip the weapon as you attack. Different conversation to have.
Getting to Lvl 6 is where things get confusing (Warlock 5, Paladin/Fighter/Barbarian 1). If I grab Thirsting Blade and do the following attack pattern seen in Example 1, can I then make an extra attack with my Pact of The Blade Scimitar (see Example 2)?
Example 2 (Warlock 5, Paladin/Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger 1):
Turn 0: Use Pact of the Blade to conjure a Scimitar or any weapon with the Nick property.
Turn 1: Use a bonus action to cast Shillelagh on your Club.
1. Use your attack action with your Shillelagh Club
2. As part of the attack action, use your Pact of the Blade Scimitar using Nick, to make another attack.
3. Then make another attack with your Pact of the Blade Scimitar because it benefits from Thirsting Blade.
To be completely honest, I'm having trouble interpreting the RAW to figure out if this is possible or not. This is because I'm not sure if Nick weapons benefit from Extra Attack if not used as a trigger for that first Attack as part of the action. Would appreciate any input. Thanks!
Edit1: Spelling/grammar
Edit2: Rangers get a weapon mastery at level 1. Added to example builds list.
While Extra Attack doesn't limit you to use the same weapon, Thirsting Blade on the other hand does specifically say you can attack twice with the weapon.
The Light weapon extra attack granted by Nick Mastery must be made with a different Light weapon so it can't be the same scimitar.
Thirsting Blade: You gain the Extra Attack feature for your pact weapon only. With that feature, you can attack twice with the weapon instead of once when you take the Attack action on your turn.
Light: When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon
Nick is currently a badly written Mastery, it does not specify if you need to make an attack with a weapon to benefit from nick or if you need to use the nick weapon for performing the light weapon property extra attack itself. In fact Nick doesn't even say you need to use the Nick weapon itself at all, which is different to every other weapon mastery that does specify that.
So current RAW, it should be legal to make 2 attacks with a pact scimitar and then attack with the club as per the nick & light properties, this thus would avoid the issue entirely to begin with. Perhaps later, further Errata will clarify exactly how Nick is meant to be used or at least specify it needs to be used on one attack used in the attack action... but right now it should work either way.
Depending If ruling Nick Mastery need to be made with said weapon or not*, the attack sequence with the Shillelagh Club Light Weapon and Scimitar Nick Pact Weapon would either be;
AFAICT, this doesn't even need Nick to get 3 attacks.
Thirsting blade gives you Extra Attack with the Scimitar out of the box. It's the Light weapon property of the Scimitar that gives you the BA attack with the club (no mastery needed).
And if you have Nick mastery, you could make the attack with the Club as part of your attack action (because that's what Nick does), leaving your Bonus Action for something else.
The reason I think that, is that Nick doesn't restrict the order of the attacks with the light weapons. It doesn't say something like "When you attack with this weapon" or "if you would have made an attack with this weapon as the bonus action attack from the Light property.." I'm guessing that the intent is to reduce complexity about attack ordering so that, if you have Nick mastery for either of the light weapons you're using, you can attack in either order as part of the attack action. I think this is the simplest reading, and the least onerous for the players and DM to use.
AFAICT, this doesn't even need Nick to get 3 attacks.
Thirsting blade gives you Extra Attack with the Scimitar out of the box. It's the Light weapon property of the Scimitar that gives you the BA attack with the club (no mastery needed).
And if you have Nick mastery, you could make the attack with the Club as part of your attack action (because that's what Nick does), leaving your Bonus Action for something else.
The reason I think that, is that Nick doesn't restrict the order of the attacks with the light weapons. It doesn't say something like "When you attack with this weapon" or "if you would have made an attack with this weapon as the bonus action attack from the Light property.." I'm guessing that the intent is to reduce complexity about attack ordering so that, if you have Nick mastery for either of the light weapons you're using, you can attack in either order as part of the attack action. I think this is the simplest reading, and the least onerous for the players and DM to use.
There seems to be a debate.
Option One: The weapon with the Nick property must be the one used to make the attack on the attack action. So you need two light weapons. A short sword for example that triggers the light property, and a dagger to attack with which will trigger Nick.
Option Two: The weapon with the Nick property must be used first. This creates a weird scenario where a rogue for example must attack with the Dagger first to both trigger the light property and the nick property.
Option Three: There is some weird thing going on where you don't have to have the weapon.
Of these I think the first option is going to be the most used, and the likely intention. Though I did originally read it as the second option as it would follow the pattern for all other weapon masteries. I think this will be the second most used option. I think most people are just not going to allow option three. I also think most people are going to force some order on the situation to be consistent with things like Vex in combination with NIck.
Option 1: So that's like saying .. If you have Nick mastery on weapon A, and a different Light Weapon granted you a Bonus Action to attack, you can instead attack with Weapon A as part of the attack action. Yes?
Option 3: That seems untenable from an intent perspective. It's clearly intended that you have to at least wield a weapon to get it's Mastery property.
But you missed Option 4 -- which is my stance -- that the order of the attacks doesn't matter, only that you are attacking with two different light weapons, and you have Nick mastery for at least one of them. I think this is the intent because I think the designers don't want the minutia of weapon timing to get in the way of a good time :)
Hello! I have a question that pertains to the thread title...
Question: If you make an attack with one weapon, and then use a Nick weapon with Pact of Blade to do another attack, can you use that same Pact Weapon to make a third attack with Thirsting Blade?
Context: A situation came to mind when reading about dual-wielding, spells, and abilities that change the modifier of your weapon attacks. One thing I noticed with the new Warlock updates, which I think is cool--unless I'm interpreting the rules incorrectly--, is that you can dual-wield a Pact of The Tome Shillelagh Club and a Pact of The Blade Nick weapon. Of course, you need weapon masteries, but it looks like you can be a dual-wielding melee attacker that uses their charisma (see example 1).
Example 1 (Warlock 2, Paladin/Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger 1):
Turn 0: Use Pact of the Blade to conjure a Scimitar or any weapon with the Nick property.
Turn 1: Use a bonus action to cast Shillelagh on your Club (*see note).
1. Use your attack action with your Shillelagh Club
2. As part of the attack action, use your Pact of the Blade Scimitar using Nick, to make another attack.
*Note: I do know the wording for Shillelagh says you have to be holding it. If I was DM'ing, I would rule it's fine since you equip the weapon as you attack. Different conversation to have.
Getting to Lvl 6 is where things get confusing (Warlock 5, Paladin/Fighter/Barbarian 1). If I grab Thirsting Blade and do the following attack pattern seen in Example 1, can I then make an extra attack with my Pact of The Blade Scimitar (see Example 2)?
Example 2 (Warlock 5, Paladin/Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger 1):
Turn 0: Use Pact of the Blade to conjure a Scimitar or any weapon with the Nick property.
Turn 1: Use a bonus action to cast Shillelagh on your Club.
1. Use your attack action with your Shillelagh Club
2. As part of the attack action, use your Pact of the Blade Scimitar using Nick, to make another attack.
3. Then make another attack with your Pact of the Blade Scimitar because it benefits from Thirsting Blade.
To be completely honest, I'm having trouble interpreting the RAW to figure out if this is possible or not. This is because I'm not sure if Nick weapons benefit from Extra Attack if not used as a trigger for that first Attack as part of the action. Would appreciate any input. Thanks!
Edit1: Spelling/grammar
Edit2: Rangers get a weapon mastery at level 1. Added to example builds list.
While Extra Attack doesn't limit you to use the same weapon, Thirsting Blade on the other hand does specifically say you can attack twice with the weapon.
The Light weapon extra attack granted by Nick Mastery must be made with a different Light weapon so it can't be the same scimitar.
Nick is currently a badly written Mastery, it does not specify if you need to make an attack with a weapon to benefit from nick or if you need to use the nick weapon for performing the light weapon property extra attack itself. In fact Nick doesn't even say you need to use the Nick weapon itself at all, which is different to every other weapon mastery that does specify that.
So current RAW, it should be legal to make 2 attacks with a pact scimitar and then attack with the club as per the nick & light properties, this thus would avoid the issue entirely to begin with. Perhaps later, further Errata will clarify exactly how Nick is meant to be used or at least specify it needs to be used on one attack used in the attack action... but right now it should work either way.
Depending If ruling Nick Mastery need to be made with said weapon or not*, the attack sequence with the Shillelagh Club Light Weapon and Scimitar Nick Pact Weapon would either be;
Level 1-4
Club + Scimitar
Scimitar + Club *
Level 5+
Club + Scimitar + Scimitar
Scimitar + Scimitar + Club *
Scimitar + Club + Scimitar *
OP should work. Nick allows the attack to be made as part of the attack action, and that's enough to trigger Thirsting Blade.
AFAICT, this doesn't even need Nick to get 3 attacks.
Thirsting blade gives you Extra Attack with the Scimitar out of the box. It's the Light weapon property of the Scimitar that gives you the BA attack with the club (no mastery needed).
And if you have Nick mastery, you could make the attack with the Club as part of your attack action (because that's what Nick does), leaving your Bonus Action for something else.
The reason I think that, is that Nick doesn't restrict the order of the attacks with the light weapons. It doesn't say something like "When you attack with this weapon" or "if you would have made an attack with this weapon as the bonus action attack from the Light property.." I'm guessing that the intent is to reduce complexity about attack ordering so that, if you have Nick mastery for either of the light weapons you're using, you can attack in either order as part of the attack action. I think this is the simplest reading, and the least onerous for the players and DM to use.
There seems to be a debate.
Option One: The weapon with the Nick property must be the one used to make the attack on the attack action. So you need two light weapons. A short sword for example that triggers the light property, and a dagger to attack with which will trigger Nick.
Option Two: The weapon with the Nick property must be used first. This creates a weird scenario where a rogue for example must attack with the Dagger first to both trigger the light property and the nick property.
Option Three: There is some weird thing going on where you don't have to have the weapon.
Of these I think the first option is going to be the most used, and the likely intention. Though I did originally read it as the second option as it would follow the pattern for all other weapon masteries. I think this will be the second most used option. I think most people are just not going to allow option three. I also think most people are going to force some order on the situation to be consistent with things like Vex in combination with NIck.
Indeed there is a debate :)
Option 1: So that's like saying .. If you have Nick mastery on weapon A, and a different Light Weapon granted you a Bonus Action to attack, you can instead attack with Weapon A as part of the attack action. Yes?
Option 3: That seems untenable from an intent perspective. It's clearly intended that you have to at least wield a weapon to get it's Mastery property.
But you missed Option 4 -- which is my stance -- that the order of the attacks doesn't matter, only that you are attacking with two different light weapons, and you have Nick mastery for at least one of them. I think this is the intent because I think the designers don't want the minutia of weapon timing to get in the way of a good time :)
I think you should just leave it up to your DM to decide. I personally, would opt for more attacks.
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