I'll keep this one a bit shorter. Not going to worry about specific weapons, naturally legendary weapons break the game later on.
You mean a Hoopak? It's as legendary as a longsword. It's a traditional Kender weapon. I'm sure magical versions exist, but this is mundane. It's basically a staff sling but with a sharp point at the bottom; it's a spear that you can't throw with a sling on the other end of it. The basic sling is a "shepherd's sling".
I meant, there is no need to break down into every potential option for slings and quarterstaves. We can just stick with basic sling and quarterstaff for the comparison.
You said thirsting blade and devouring blade could not apply except for magical slings. That is not true because the Hoopak exists and can be summoned by Pact of the Blade. It's a Dragonlance item, but it's reasonable to adapt to other campaigns if your GM is okay with it. It should be available in a Planescape setting as well.
If every dungeon is a building with doors at every corner, then it's also an issue. Not all dungeons are the same, and spells are components for a reason, if the GM is handwaving these things every time, that is down to them but it's not how the rules have these things going down. Ultimately the whole "cast it before the battle" isn't applicable every time and the limited number of pebbles would heavily interfere with a class like Warlock when using spells like Hex.
Where exactly are the rules on how far away a verbal spell components can be heard? Please, provide the non-handwaved rule that provides a concrete definition of that range. Or how loud the verbal components are. Yeah, there are a lot of doors and with them a lot of checks for traps and other door routines. Hex use a Bonus Action to set the target and none to deal extra damage. In single encounters, you can get by with a single casting (or setting the target from a prior casting) and both Magic Stone and Polearm Master are unrestricted.
Crusher's 5 foot push is automatic 1 per turn, so long as the creature is not two sizes or more larger than you. Crusher's advantage is automatic on Critical but that is not a reliable way of getting advantage, there are other ways to get advantage which can be better from other classes and generally would not want to be relying on a Warlock for doing this. On top of this, PAM also gives an additional reaction, one that can trigger far easier than opportunity attacks normally would.
If you're getting 2+ attacks with a melee weapon, you aren't likely to trigger the Polearm Master reaction unless you lose initiative or the encounter has multiple melee enemies, but even then, it's likely once per encounter.
I forgot about the once per turn on Crusher. I was trying to figure out ways to trigger falling without Push mastery or Repelling Blast. If you can trigger the falling consistently, that is the reliable way to get advantage, not Enhanced Critical, not Topple. You can, however, use Crusher's Push to move an enemy through a Spike Growth, away from someone who just hit with Booming Blade. Topple's effectiveness will vary by enemy, but drops off unsurprisingly against higher CR enemies where advantage is more critical than against a cluster of lower CR opponents. Magic Stone is also nice because you don't have to invest any of the feats to maximize it. Bonus Action cast it on pebbles via your invisible familiar and you eldritch blast with your action. Your ally with the feat investments and weapon masteries actually does the stone toss. Or you just pass them out to someone who doesn't otherwise have an effective attack.
Shillelagh and Polearm Master don't really help with using Magic Stone with Agonizing Blast, though.
You said thirsting blade and devouring blade could not apply except for magical slings. That is not true because the Hoopak exists and can be summoned by Pact of the Blade. It's a Dragonlance item, but it's reasonable to adapt to other campaigns if your GM is okay with it. It should be available in a Planescape setting as well.
You or someone else can make a ranged spell attack with one of the pebbles by throwing it or hurling it with a sling.
Where permits anything but a sling in the magic stone spell itself? If you threw a magic stone with a catapult, it would not activate the spell effect on the stone since the spell does not permit that.
So either A, the Hoopak counts as a sling, it is a sling and can be used as a sling or B the Hoopak acts as sling but is not a sling itself, it can not be used as a sling for the magic stone spell. Either way what I said about a sling remain true, this is no different from how Shillelagh can only be cast on clubs or quarterstaffs, and oh, you can cast shillelagh on a staff since a staff can be used as a quarterstaff? yes or no? if yes, well it's because a staff is also a quarterstaff.
Where exactly are the rules on how far away a verbal spell components can be heard? Please, provide the non-handwaved rule that provides a concrete definition of that range. Or how loud the verbal components are. Yeah, there are a lot of doors and with them a lot of checks for traps and other door routines. Hex use a Bonus Action to set the target and none to deal extra damage. In single encounters, you can get by with a single casting (or setting the target from a prior casting) and both Magic Stone and Polearm Master are unrestricted.
Verbal (V)
A Verbal component is the chanting of esoteric words that sound like nonsense to the uninitiated.
If Verbal components can't be heard, then why do they sound like nonsense to the uninitiated? Clearly they are audible, it is also clearly stated they are chants after all. Additionally for the very purpose of avoiding this, the Subtle Spell metamagic exists, if the DM isn't checking if things can hear you then they are basically giving you a class feature for free.
It is up to the DM to determine how far it goes, additionally how different creatures would perceive it, that is why there is no hard and vast rule but if somebody is casting a spell 1 room over and there is no other sound, it'll be audible to the average human, to some creatures it may even be audible 1/2 rooms over, something like a Blink Dog might hear you two rooms over while that same Blink Dog might not hear a thing if the room has a waterfall in it. So it's situational however clearly, any verbal spell without the benefit of Subtle Spell can be counter spelled, 60 foot. So that's a good minimum over how far a spell can be heard audibly enough to be counter spelled, even when there is a waterfall in the room, it's still 60 foot.
If you're getting 2+ attacks with a melee weapon, you aren't likely to trigger the Polearm Master reaction unless you lose initiative or the encounter has multiple melee enemies, but even then, it's likely once per encounter.
There are multiple ways with warlock to get them multiple times per encounter actually, the easiest is to get weapon mastery feat and wield a Pike, you push the creature back 10 foot, it has to run back into range if it's melee and re-triggers the attack.
Now with Shillelagh, if you topple the creature, you can also just walk out of range.
You might intentionally trigger opportunity attacks if you're using Armor of Agathys to proc more damage output, tho that does risk concentration checks if using a concentration spell.
There is also mixing in Eldritch Blast with Repelling Blast and spell sniper to create distance. Having Devil's sight and using darkness, gives advantage against a lot of foes and you can not opportunity attack what you can not see... so plenty of ways for a Warlock to do this.
You can, however, use Crusher's Push to move an enemy through a Spike Growth, away from someone who just hit with Booming Blade. Topple's effectiveness will vary by enemy, but drops off unsurprisingly against higher CR enemies where advantage is more critical than against a cluster of lower CR opponents.
The push is 5 foot, you'd do more just using a pike with weapon master or hitting with repelling blast, here Crusher is just pointless, Topple is still better and has no size limitation like Crusher does, where Crusher quickly loses it's only consistent perk. If you're getting Crusher then really, you're going for a Crit fishing build to be triggering the advantage a lot, whereas Warlock simply doesn't have that. A Raging Barbarian, A Champion Fighter or An Oath of Vengance Paladin meanwhile can potentially get a lot of critical hits . It's really not the feat I would select for this build, unless you're really after constitution and for some reason resilient (constitution) isn't an option for you.
Magic Stone is also nice because you don't have to invest any of the feats to maximize it. Bonus Action cast it on pebbles via your invisible familiar and you eldritch blast with your action. Your ally with the feat investments and weapon masteries actually does the stone toss. Or you just pass them out to someone who doesn't otherwise have an effective attack.
Shillelagh and Polearm Master don't really help with using Magic Stone with Agonizing Blast, though.
I would say that Agonizing Blast isn't applicable to Magic Stone for the exact same reasons that Agonizing Blast isn't applicable to Shillelagh, so either they both get it or neither, and I'd say with how Agonizing Blast is written, it's neither.
Most people aren't going to put a weapon mastery into Sling, it's really for Niche situations where your STR based front-liners don't have long ranged attacks, you can help them do a bit more damage but for a Barbarian, it's an attack they do not use Strength (so not applicable to range) and for Paladin it's a ranged attack (so anything reliant on melee isn't working). It just changes very sub-par ranged damage to just being sub-par ranged damage. Now for the Paladin, there is a few ways to get some cantrip of their own and those cantrips will just be better, for the barbarian, they can reckless attack to throw javelins up to 120 foot with normal attacks, so it's really down to fighter or paladins that haven't got a charisma based ranged cantrip.
I would say that Agonizing Blast isn't applicable to Magic Stone for the exact same reasons that Agonizing Blast isn't applicable to Shillelagh, so either they both get it or neither, and I'd say with how Agonizing Blast is written, it's neither.
I would have to disagree, the mechanics of those spells are meaningfully different in a way that affects the RAW compatibility with Agonizing Blast.
The Magic Stone sets up a magical effect that can be triggered at a later point by making an attack (hurling or flinging it) and then replaces the normal resolution of that attack (similar to how Lightning Arrow replaces the effects of a regular attack). The resulting spell effect with a damaging spell attack, potentially with a weapon if you used a sling, and would therefore work with agonizing blast, and also anything that requires an attack with a weapon/sling.
Conversely, the only spell effect of Shillelagh is altering the properties of the enchanted weapon, (the weapon's damage die becomes d8 and you can use your spell casting modifier when making attacks with it), but it doesn't specify any attacks being made or any damage being dealt as a result of such an attack, leaving you instead to resolve it through the regular rules of making attacks with weapons. It's therefore not the spell itself dealing damage through an attack roll, and it would not work with agonizing blast.
I would say that Agonizing Blast isn't applicable to Magic Stone for the exact same reasons that Agonizing Blast isn't applicable to Shillelagh, so either they both get it or neither, and I'd say with how Agonizing Blast is written, it's neither.
I would have to disagree, the mechanics of those spells are meaningfully different in a way that affects the RAW compatibility with Agonizing Blast.
The Magic Stone sets up a magical effect that can be triggered at a later point by making an attack (hurling or flinging it) and then replaces the normal resolution of that attack (similar to how Lightning Arrow replaces the effects of a regular attack). The resulting spell effect with a damaging spell attack, potentially with a weapon if you used a sling, and would therefore work with agonizing blast, and also anything that requires an attack with a weapon/sling.
Conversely, the only spell effect of Shillelagh is altering the properties of the enchanted weapon, (the weapon's damage die becomes d8 and you can use your spell casting modifier when making attacks with it), but it doesn't specify any attacks being made or any damage being dealt as a result of such an attack, leaving you instead to resolve it through the regular rules of making attacks with weapons. It's therefore not the spell itself dealing damage through an attack roll, and it would not work with agonizing blast.
I'd first say that Shillelagh no longer makes a weapon magical, so it's not "enchanting" the weapon persay. 2nd the effect of Shillelagh is that it replaces the normal resolution of all attacks with the weapon. It really isn't changing much, since it's just altering the effects of following attack actions that are required to activate either of them, there is nothing to differentiate it based on Shillelagh allowing the same club/quarterstaff being able to make multiple attacks and magic stone only making stones that allows only 1 attack, either way the spells are modifying both the attack rolls and damage rolls of both weapons and in basically the same way.
It does say "The weapon's damage die becomes d8". This does mean that the effect of the spell is altering the weapon, and that's all the spell does. Conversely, Magic Stone specifies as part of its effect a spell attack that leads to damage, and a trigger for this spell attack to occur.
The wording of Agonizing Blast is "a Warlock Cantrip That Deals Damage". Shillelagh does not specify a condition under which the spell does damage, just that it alters the properties of an object, and thus does not work with Agonizing Blast. Magic Stone does specify a condition for dealing damage as part of its spell effect, and thus does work with Agonizing Blast.
I'm not sure what your final sentence about making stones only allowing one attack has to do with anything, as long as you have stones left you should be able to activate the spell attack as often as the triggering condition happens, and flinging stone from a sling should work with extra attack even if the resulting attack gets replaced with a spell effect?
You said thirsting blade and devouring blade could not apply except for magical slings. That is not true because the Hoopak exists and can be summoned by Pact of the Blade. It's a Dragonlance item, but it's reasonable to adapt to other campaigns if your GM is okay with it. It should be available in a Planescape setting as well.
You or someone else can make a ranged spell attack with one of the pebbles by throwing it or hurling it with a sling.
Where permits anything but a sling in the magic stone spell itself? If you threw a magic stone with a catapult, it would not activate the spell effect on the stone since the spell does not permit that.
So either A, the Hoopak counts as a sling, it is a sling and can be used as a sling or B the Hoopak acts as sling but is not a sling itself, it can not be used as a sling for the magic stone spell. Either way what I said about a sling remain true, this is no different from how Shillelagh can only be cast on clubs or quarterstaffs, and oh, you can cast shillelagh on a staff since a staff can be used as a quarterstaff? yes or no? if yes, well it's because a staff is also a quarterstaff.
"A hoopak is a sturdy stick with a sling at one end and a pointed tip at the other ... You can use the hoopak as a martial ranged weapon. If you do, it uses the ammunition property, uses sling bullets, and deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage on a hit." You might be able to make the argument that RAW, a hoopak doesn't actually count as a sling, but I don't think there are any grounds for a RAI case.
Where exactly are the rules on how far away a verbal spell components can be heard? Please, provide the non-handwaved rule that provides a concrete definition of that range. Or how loud the verbal components are. Yeah, there are a lot of doors and with them a lot of checks for traps and other door routines. Hex use a Bonus Action to set the target and none to deal extra damage. In single encounters, you can get by with a single casting (or setting the target from a prior casting) and both Magic Stone and Polearm Master are unrestricted.
Verbal (V)
A Verbal component is the chanting of esoteric words that sound like nonsense to the uninitiated.
If Verbal components can't be heard, then why do they sound like nonsense to the uninitiated? Clearly they are audible, it is also clearly stated they are chants after all. Additionally for the very purpose of avoiding this, the Subtle Spell metamagic exists, if the DM isn't checking if things can hear you then they are basically giving you a class feature for free.
It is up to the DM to determine how far it goes, additionally how different creatures would perceive it, that is why there is no hard and vast rule but if somebody is casting a spell 1 room over and there is no other sound, it'll be audible to the average human, to some creatures it may even be audible 1/2 rooms over, something like a Blink Dog might hear you two rooms over while that same Blink Dog might not hear a thing if the room has a waterfall in it. So it's situational however clearly, any verbal spell without the benefit of Subtle Spell can be counter spelled, 60 foot. So that's a good minimum over how far a spell can be heard audibly enough to be counter spelled, even when there is a waterfall in the room, it's still 60 foot.
I think the more appropriate quote would be "The words must be uttered in a normal speaking voice."
GM fiat is not RAW nor RAI. There is no defined volume for Verbal Spell Components. But, I agree that the best guidance we have is that they must be recognizable as such within 60 feet (the range of Counterspell). However, that does not inherently set a maximum limit, it's still the best guideline we have.
That blink dog probably heard the Fighter in plate about the same distance away or more. Scouts and door routines are a good idea regardless of party composition and can affect the rest of your routine.
You can, however, use Crusher's Push to move an enemy through a Spike Growth, away from someone who just hit with Booming Blade. Topple's effectiveness will vary by enemy, but drops off unsurprisingly against higher CR enemies where advantage is more critical than against a cluster of lower CR opponents.
The push is 5 foot, you'd do more just using a pike with weapon master or hitting with repelling blast, here Crusher is just pointless, Topple is still better and has no size limitation like Crusher does, where Crusher quickly loses it's only consistent perk. If you're getting Crusher then really, you're going for a Crit fishing build to be triggering the advantage a lot, whereas Warlock simply doesn't have that. A Raging Barbarian, A Champion Fighter or An Oath of Vengance Paladin meanwhile can potentially get a lot of critical hits . It's really not the feat I would select for this build, unless you're really after constitution and for some reason resilient (constitution) isn't an option for you.
5 feet is still 5 feet and can be off a cliff, away from an ally, towards an ally. (Someone else's) Spike Growth add 2d4 damage and your own Hex will add another 1d6. However, if you want, you can pass it off to a Raging Barbarian, Champion Fighter, or Oath of Vengeance Paladin (who all forgot their ranged weapons today) and let them invest in Crusher instead of you.
Handing them off to a level 9+ fighter with Crusher could allow for a 15 foot push and guaranteed fall (against a non-flying Large or smaller enemy). A Rune Knight could get the 5 foot push on larger enemies, but not the 15 feet.
Magic Stone is also nice because you don't have to invest any of the feats to maximize it. Bonus Action cast it on pebbles via your invisible familiar and you eldritch blast with your action. Your ally with the feat investments and weapon masteries actually does the stone toss. Or you just pass them out to someone who doesn't otherwise have an effective attack.
Shillelagh and Polearm Master don't really help with using Magic Stone with Agonizing Blast, though.
I would say that Agonizing Blast isn't applicable to Magic Stone for the exact same reasons that Agonizing Blast isn't applicable to Shillelagh, so either they both get it or neither, and I'd say with how Agonizing Blast is written, it's neither.
Most people aren't going to put a weapon mastery into Sling, it's really for Niche situations where your STR based front-liners don't have long ranged attacks, you can help them do a bit more damage but for a Barbarian, it's an attack they do not use Strength (so not applicable to range) and for Paladin it's a ranged attack (so anything reliant on melee isn't working). It just changes very sub-par ranged damage to just being sub-par ranged damage. Now for the Paladin, there is a few ways to get some cantrip of their own and those cantrips will just be better, for the barbarian, they can reckless attack to throw javelins up to 120 foot with normal attacks, so it's really down to fighter or paladins that haven't got a charisma based ranged cantrip.
Shillelagh doesn't give an object a spell attack.it didn't already have. Magic Stone does. It's in a weird place, granted, but it is not the same situation of Shillelagh.
At the end of the day, Topple and Shillelagh don't matter. This is a thread about Magic Stone, Agonizing Blast, and using it with a Sling.
Magic Stone and Agonizing Blast's interaction is debatable and has been argued back and forth.
Against: It is a spell that transforms the damage of a sling stone.
For: It is a spell that deals damage and does not change the damage of an object. (When you cast the spell, you touch pebbles, not sling stones) Magic Stone is like Crown of Stars (Xanathar's Guide to Everything) - you create X things and can expend one as a ranged spell attack.
Using a Sling
Without a sling, Magic Stone's range is 60 feet.
With a sling, Magic Stone's range is potentially affected by the sling used (this is inferred, not stated), may or may not be affected by the normal and long range, and may or may not be affected by the sling properties (enchantments such as +X or Vicious).
With a sling/hoopak, the range is still 60 feet as another range is not given. (I don't expect this being a common interpretation)
With a sling, the range is 30/120 ft (at ranges 31 - 60 ft, it's better to just throw it)
With a sling, the range is 120 ft (normal and long range doesn't apply to spell attacks)
With a sling, the range is 40/160 ft (at ranges 41 - 60 ft, it's better to just throw it)
With a sling, the range is 160 ft (normal and long range doesn't apply to spell attacks)
Bonus - Extra Attack: It's not clear whether you can use Extra Attack with Magic Stone:
Against: attacking with a Magic Stone is a spell attack and not covered by the Attack Action.
For: You are attacking with a weapon with altered rules and use the Attack Action.
(I expect most people for Extra Attack working are opposed to Agonizing Blast)
Bonus - Weapon Mastery: If using a sling (not throwing the pebbles), the Weapon Mastery may or may not apply.
Against: The attacks from Magic Stone are spell attacks, not weapon attacks and can never trigger a weapon mastery.
For: When using a sling, you are using a weapon and there for eligible for some weapon masteries.
Bonus: Crusher works with Magic Stone because Crusher doesn't care about type of attack, only damage type.
Bonus: Pact Weapon:
You can bond to a magical sling, but not summon one.
You can boon to a magical hoopak and summon a nonmagical one. It has a sling at one end. Check with your GM about using one with Magic Stone, but it should be fine (IMO).
Most of what a Magic Stone does, a Pact Weapon does but Pact Weapon definitely qualifies for Extra Attack and Weapon Mastery (and uses the normal/long range rules for ranged weapons).
It does say "The weapon's damage die becomes d8". This does mean that the effect of the spell is altering the weapon, and that's all the spell does.
That's just straight up false, Shillelagh. It straight up says you can use your spellcasting ability modifier instead of strength, which is a much bigger deal then just increasing to a D8, and that D8 upscales with level too. Further too that Shillelagh gives you the option to inflict Force Damage, if that isn't modifying the attack in a significant way, I do not know what is. So shillelagh does way more than you're implying.
The wording of Agonizing Blast is "a Warlock Cantrip That Deals Damage". Shillelagh does not specify a condition under which the spell does damage, just that it alters the properties of an object, and thus does not work with Agonizing Blast. Magic Stone does specify a condition for dealing damage as part of its spell effect, and thus does work with Agonizing Blast.
This is incorrect, Magic Stone does not do damage, it changes the damage formula of an attack, that is not the cantrip doing damage, it is still the attack doing the damage and Magic Stone itself contains no attack, thus the attack is part of a different action and the damage is part of that attack, as per making an attack.
3. Resolve the Attack. Make the attack roll, as detailed earlier in this chapter. On a hit, you roll damage unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.
All magic stone does, is specify some other special effect for the attack, in that the damage formula is different.
You said thirsting blade and devouring blade could not apply except for magical slings. That is not true because the Hoopak exists and can be summoned by Pact of the Blade. It's a Dragonlance item, but it's reasonable to adapt to other campaigns if your GM is okay with it. It should be available in a Planescape setting as well.
You or someone else can make a ranged spell attack with one of the pebbles by throwing it or hurling it with a sling.
Where permits anything but a sling in the magic stone spell itself? If you threw a magic stone with a catapult, it would not activate the spell effect on the stone since the spell does not permit that.
So either A, the Hoopak counts as a sling, it is a sling and can be used as a sling or B the Hoopak acts as sling but is not a sling itself, it can not be used as a sling for the magic stone spell. Either way what I said about a sling remain true, this is no different from how Shillelagh can only be cast on clubs or quarterstaffs, and oh, you can cast shillelagh on a staff since a staff can be used as a quarterstaff? yes or no? if yes, well it's because a staff is also a quarterstaff.
"A hoopak is a sturdy stick with a sling at one end and a pointed tip at the other ... You can use the hoopak as a martial ranged weapon. If you do, it uses the ammunition property, uses sling bullets, and deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage on a hit." You might be able to make the argument that RAW, a hoopak doesn't actually count as a sling, but I don't think there are any grounds for a RAI case.
Why are we wasting time on this? It's irrelevant, either you say
A) Hoopak IS a sling and thus applicable to the spell BECAUSE IT'S A SLING
B) Hoopak can be used as a sling but isn't a sling thus is not applicable to the spell BECAUSE IT'S NOT A SLING
Either way, this has been a pointless tangent, you're goal was to prove me wrong that only slings are usable, but that's literally what the spell states.
Where exactly are the rules on how far away a verbal spell components can be heard? Please, provide the non-handwaved rule that provides a concrete definition of that range. Or how loud the verbal components are. Yeah, there are a lot of doors and with them a lot of checks for traps and other door routines. Hex use a Bonus Action to set the target and none to deal extra damage. In single encounters, you can get by with a single casting (or setting the target from a prior casting) and both Magic Stone and Polearm Master are unrestricted.
Verbal (V)
A Verbal component is the chanting of esoteric words that sound like nonsense to the uninitiated.
If Verbal components can't be heard, then why do they sound like nonsense to the uninitiated? Clearly they are audible, it is also clearly stated they are chants after all. Additionally for the very purpose of avoiding this, the Subtle Spell metamagic exists, if the DM isn't checking if things can hear you then they are basically giving you a class feature for free.
It is up to the DM to determine how far it goes, additionally how different creatures would perceive it, that is why there is no hard and vast rule but if somebody is casting a spell 1 room over and there is no other sound, it'll be audible to the average human, to some creatures it may even be audible 1/2 rooms over, something like a Blink Dog might hear you two rooms over while that same Blink Dog might not hear a thing if the room has a waterfall in it. So it's situational however clearly, any verbal spell without the benefit of Subtle Spell can be counter spelled, 60 foot. So that's a good minimum over how far a spell can be heard audibly enough to be counter spelled, even when there is a waterfall in the room, it's still 60 foot.
I think the more appropriate quote would be "The words must be uttered in a normal speaking voice."
GM fiat is not RAW nor RAI. There is no defined volume for Verbal Spell Components. But, I agree that the best guidance we have is that they must be recognizable as such within 60 feet (the range of Counterspell). However, that does not inherently set a maximum limit, it's still the best guideline we have.
That blink dog probably heard the Fighter in plate about the same distance away or more. Scouts and door routines are a good idea regardless of party composition and can affect the rest of your routine.
Right, so I'm not saying every situation is the same, there are cases you could cast it in the room before, but acting like that'll always work in a quiet location with little other noise, it'd be noticeable, personally I'd say as Verbal components explicitly state they are chanted using specific pitches and the such, they are clearly going to be more noticeable than normal speech and there are areas where normal speech break things, like hiding. There is no minimum or maximum distance for sound but a DM should not hand wave it 100% of the time, that's just as bad as never hand waving it at all and as a player, roleplaying the situation, you shouldn't just be power gaming it up as that's how adventurers would take on such a situation, clearly stealth is an important part of the game and audible chanting doesn't fit in with stealth and careful exploration.
You can, however, use Crusher's Push to move an enemy through a Spike Growth, away from someone who just hit with Booming Blade. Topple's effectiveness will vary by enemy, but drops off unsurprisingly against higher CR enemies where advantage is more critical than against a cluster of lower CR opponents.
The push is 5 foot, you'd do more just using a pike with weapon master or hitting with repelling blast, here Crusher is just pointless, Topple is still better and has no size limitation like Crusher does, where Crusher quickly loses it's only consistent perk. If you're getting Crusher then really, you're going for a Crit fishing build to be triggering the advantage a lot, whereas Warlock simply doesn't have that. A Raging Barbarian, A Champion Fighter or An Oath of Vengance Paladin meanwhile can potentially get a lot of critical hits . It's really not the feat I would select for this build, unless you're really after constitution and for some reason resilient (constitution) isn't an option for you.
5 feet is still 5 feet and can be off a cliff, away from an ally, towards an ally. (Someone else's) Spike Growth add 2d4 damage and your own Hex will add another 1d6. However, if you want, you can pass it off to a Raging Barbarian, Champion Fighter, or Oath of Vengeance Paladin (who all forgot their ranged weapons today) and let them invest in Crusher instead of you.
Handing them off to a level 9+ fighter with Crusher could allow for a 15 foot push and guaranteed fall (against a non-flying Large or smaller enemy). A Rune Knight could get the 5 foot push on larger enemies, but not the 15 feet.
The point here is that there are multiple other ways that a warlock gets push, including their most famous spell, which can get repelling blast. you say 5 foot is 5 foot, but 10 foot is 10 foot. Is a 10 foot push better than a 5 foot push? Well?
If your Barbarian, Fighter and Paladin all forgot their thrown weapons, somebody should be chasing them up on that or the party sets a quartermaster for the basic supplies like javelins, daggers, light hammer, etc.
Magic Stone is also nice because you don't have to invest any of the feats to maximize it. Bonus Action cast it on pebbles via your invisible familiar and you eldritch blast with your action. Your ally with the feat investments and weapon masteries actually does the stone toss. Or you just pass them out to someone who doesn't otherwise have an effective attack.
Shillelagh and Polearm Master don't really help with using Magic Stone with Agonizing Blast, though.
I would say that Agonizing Blast isn't applicable to Magic Stone for the exact same reasons that Agonizing Blast isn't applicable to Shillelagh, so either they both get it or neither, and I'd say with how Agonizing Blast is written, it's neither.
Most people aren't going to put a weapon mastery into Sling, it's really for Niche situations where your STR based front-liners don't have long ranged attacks, you can help them do a bit more damage but for a Barbarian, it's an attack they do not use Strength (so not applicable to range) and for Paladin it's a ranged attack (so anything reliant on melee isn't working). It just changes very sub-par ranged damage to just being sub-par ranged damage. Now for the Paladin, there is a few ways to get some cantrip of their own and those cantrips will just be better, for the barbarian, they can reckless attack to throw javelins up to 120 foot with normal attacks, so it's really down to fighter or paladins that haven't got a charisma based ranged cantrip.
Shillelagh doesn't give an object a spell attack.it didn't already have. Magic Stone does. It's in a weird place, granted, but it is not the same situation of Shillelagh.
At the end of the day, Topple and Shillelagh don't matter. This is a thread about Magic Stone, Agonizing Blast, and using it with a Sling.
Magic Stone and Agonizing Blast's interaction is debatable and has been argued back and forth.
Against: It is a spell that transforms the damage of a sling stone.
For: It is a spell that deals damage and does not change the damage of an object. (When you cast the spell, you touch pebbles, not sling stones) Magic Stone is like Crown of Stars (Xanathar's Guide to Everything) - you create X things and can expend one as a ranged spell attack.
Using a Sling
Without a sling, Magic Stone's range is 60 feet.
With a sling, Magic Stone's range is potentially affected by the sling used (this is inferred, not stated), may or may not be affected by the normal and long range, and may or may not be affected by the sling properties (enchantments such as +X or Vicious).
With a sling/hoopak, the range is still 60 feet as another range is not given. (I don't expect this being a common interpretation)
With a sling, the range is 30/120 ft (at ranges 31 - 60 ft, it's better to just throw it)
With a sling, the range is 120 ft (normal and long range doesn't apply to spell attacks)
With a sling, the range is 40/160 ft (at ranges 41 - 60 ft, it's better to just throw it)
With a sling, the range is 160 ft (normal and long range doesn't apply to spell attacks)
Bonus - Extra Attack: It's not clear whether you can use Extra Attack with Magic Stone:
Against: attacking with a Magic Stone is a spell attack and not covered by the Attack Action.
For: You are attacking with a weapon with altered rules and use the Attack Action.
(I expect most people for Extra Attack working are opposed to Agonizing Blast)
Bonus - Weapon Mastery: If using a sling (not throwing the pebbles), the Weapon Mastery may or may not apply.
Against: The attacks from Magic Stone are spell attacks, not weapon attacks and can never trigger a weapon mastery.
For: When using a sling, you are using a weapon and there for eligible for some weapon masteries.
Bonus: Crusher works with Magic Stone because Crusher doesn't care about type of attack, only damage type.
Bonus: Pact Weapon:
You can bond to a magical sling, but not summon one.
You can boon to a magical hoopak and summon a nonmagical one. It has a sling at one end. Check with your GM about using one with Magic Stone, but it should be fine (IMO).
Most of what a Magic Stone does, a Pact Weapon does but Pact Weapon definitely qualifies for Extra Attack and Weapon Mastery (and uses the normal/long range rules for ranged weapons).
Yes, Shillelagh/Topple were just for comparison sake to just show that Magic Stone is very behind as a cantrip, it's for a niche usage and even that niche is weak.
I would ultimately say that while Magic Stone says it's a magic ranged attack, it supplies no method itself to perform that past throwing it (which is part of an attack action) or using it in a sling (which is part of an attack action), nothing says the attack of that attack action is replaced by the cantrip's attack but rather that the attack is magic instead of a normal weapon attack, it would still be the attack of the attack action however and the attack/damage resolved would be of that attack action which is modified by the cantrip. We can debate this further but there is nothing in the spell that specifies the attack used is fully replaced out or that the damage is actually the result of the cantrip, it just modifies the damage.
After all, if using a +3 sling, would we say that you get to add that +3 to the damage too? I think we would say yes. I personally believe the intention of the magic attack is to directly state that the damage is magical (ignores resistance/immunity to bludgeoning damage from a non-magical source) and not to state that the cantrip itself inflicts the damage. Overall, I think it's easier if we just agree to disagree from this part since I don't think we will ever agree about how it's meant to work and it's just one cantrip that barely anybody will use because it's not really any good outside of certain niche situations where there are already alternative solutions too.
It does say "The weapon's damage die becomes d8". This does mean that the effect of the spell is altering the weapon, and that's all the spell does.
That's just straight up false, Shillelagh. It straight up says you can use your spellcasting ability modifier instead of strength, which is a much bigger deal then just increasing to a D8, and that D8 upscales with level too. Further too that Shillelagh gives you the option to inflict Force Damage, if that isn't modifying the attack in a significant way, I do not know what is. So shillelagh does way more than you're implying.
In regards to damage dealt, Shillelagh doesn't deal damage. It changes the damage dealt. You can maybe make the argument that when it adds damage dice, it's dealing damage, but really it's increasing the damage dealt. Magic Stone, Fire Bolt, and Eldritch Blast only deal damage from the spell itself. They don't modify anything that already deals damage by changing the type or increasing it.
You said thirsting blade and devouring blade could not apply except for magical slings. That is not true because the Hoopak exists and can be summoned by Pact of the Blade. It's a Dragonlance item, but it's reasonable to adapt to other campaigns if your GM is okay with it. It should be available in a Planescape setting as well.
You or someone else can make a ranged spell attack with one of the pebbles by throwing it or hurling it with a sling.
Where permits anything but a sling in the magic stone spell itself? If you threw a magic stone with a catapult, it would not activate the spell effect on the stone since the spell does not permit that.
So either A, the Hoopak counts as a sling, it is a sling and can be used as a sling or B the Hoopak acts as sling but is not a sling itself, it can not be used as a sling for the magic stone spell. Either way what I said about a sling remain true, this is no different from how Shillelagh can only be cast on clubs or quarterstaffs, and oh, you can cast shillelagh on a staff since a staff can be used as a quarterstaff? yes or no? if yes, well it's because a staff is also a quarterstaff.
"A hoopak is a sturdy stick with a sling at one end and a pointed tip at the other ... You can use the hoopak as a martial ranged weapon. If you do, it uses the ammunition property, uses sling bullets, and deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage on a hit." You might be able to make the argument that RAW, a hoopak doesn't actually count as a sling, but I don't think there are any grounds for a RAI case.
Why are we wasting time on this? It's irrelevant, either you say
A) Hoopak IS a sling and thus applicable to the spell BECAUSE IT'S A SLING
B) Hoopak can be used as a sling but isn't a sling thus is not applicable to the spell BECAUSE IT'S NOT A SLING
Either way, this has been a pointless tangent, you're goal was to prove me wrong that only slings are usable, but that's literally what the spell states.
Magic Stone was first published for 5e in the Elemental Evil's Player Companion in 2015 and then reprinted in Xanathar's in 2017. The Hoopak was published for 5e in Dragonlance in 2022, five year's later. At the time Magic Stone was published it was the PHB sling was the only sling available. After Dragonlance, you have the Hoopak which can use sling ammunition FOR THE SLING ON THE END OF THE STAFF because that's literally what the item states.
Now, if we're done shouting. It mostly matters as one of, but not the only, method of using Pact Weapons with Magic Stone, if you subscribe to the belief that you are using an Attack Action to attack with a Magic Stone. If not, the only potential benefit is for the slightly increased range over a shepard's sling.
Where exactly are the rules on how far away a verbal spell components can be heard? Please, provide the non-handwaved rule that provides a concrete definition of that range. Or how loud the verbal components are. Yeah, there are a lot of doors and with them a lot of checks for traps and other door routines. Hex use a Bonus Action to set the target and none to deal extra damage. In single encounters, you can get by with a single casting (or setting the target from a prior casting) and both Magic Stone and Polearm Master are unrestricted.
Verbal (V)
A Verbal component is the chanting of esoteric words that sound like nonsense to the uninitiated.
If Verbal components can't be heard, then why do they sound like nonsense to the uninitiated? Clearly they are audible, it is also clearly stated they are chants after all. Additionally for the very purpose of avoiding this, the Subtle Spell metamagic exists, if the DM isn't checking if things can hear you then they are basically giving you a class feature for free.
It is up to the DM to determine how far it goes, additionally how different creatures would perceive it, that is why there is no hard and vast rule but if somebody is casting a spell 1 room over and there is no other sound, it'll be audible to the average human, to some creatures it may even be audible 1/2 rooms over, something like a Blink Dog might hear you two rooms over while that same Blink Dog might not hear a thing if the room has a waterfall in it. So it's situational however clearly, any verbal spell without the benefit of Subtle Spell can be counter spelled, 60 foot. So that's a good minimum over how far a spell can be heard audibly enough to be counter spelled, even when there is a waterfall in the room, it's still 60 foot.
I think the more appropriate quote would be "The words must be uttered in a normal speaking voice."
GM fiat is not RAW nor RAI. There is no defined volume for Verbal Spell Components. But, I agree that the best guidance we have is that they must be recognizable as such within 60 feet (the range of Counterspell). However, that does not inherently set a maximum limit, it's still the best guideline we have.
That blink dog probably heard the Fighter in plate about the same distance away or more. Scouts and door routines are a good idea regardless of party composition and can affect the rest of your routine.
Right, so I'm not saying every situation is the same, there are cases you could cast it in the room before, but acting like that'll always work in a quiet location with little other noise, it'd be noticeable, personally I'd say as Verbal components explicitly state they are chanted using specific pitches and the such, they are clearly going to be more noticeable than normal speech and there are areas where normal speech break things, like hiding. There is no minimum or maximum distance for sound but a DM should not hand wave it 100% of the time, that's just as bad as never hand waving it at all and as a player, roleplaying the situation, you shouldn't just be power gaming it up as that's how adventurers would take on such a situation, clearly stealth is an important part of the game and audible chanting doesn't fit in with stealth and careful exploration.
Door routines, corner Routines, clearing routines - whatever you want to call it, it's perfectly reasonable to cast a spell as part of it while the party is drawing weapons or whatever. A spell with a duration of 1 minute (10 rounds, typically 300 feet of casual strolling) is perfectly reasonable to not cause an issue most of the time. In the cases where it would cause a problem, something else probably would have anyway.
Scouts usually travel ahead of the loud party members because not everyone is going to be stealthy and most of a well armed adventuring group will be audible.
The point here is that there are multiple other ways that a warlock gets push, including their most famous spell, which can get repelling blast. you say 5 foot is 5 foot, but 10 foot is 10 foot. Is a 10 foot push better than a 5 foot push? Well?
I suppose if Agonizing Blast applies to Magic Stone, then Repelling Blast applies as well and 15 foot push is better than a 10 foot push.
I would ultimately say that while Magic Stone says it's a magic ranged attack, it supplies no method itself to perform that past throwing it (which is part of an attack action) or using it in a sling (which is part of an attack action), nothing says the attack of that attack action is replaced by the cantrip's attack but rather that the attack is magic instead of a normal weapon attack, it would still be the attack of the attack action however and the attack/damage resolved would be of that attack action which is modified by the cantrip. We can debate this further but there is nothing in the spell that specifies the attack used is fully replaced out or that the damage is actually the result of the cantrip, it just modifies the damage.
In the 2014 or 2024 rules, what examples can you give of a ranged or melee spell attack being made as part of the Attack Action, apart from College of Valor and Eldritch Knight's Extra Attack or Battle Magic Features? Why is Pact Weapon attacks a weapon attack using your spellcasting modifier instead of Strength or Dexterity? Because Magic Stone attacks are not Weapon Attacks.
After all, if using a +3 sling, would we say that you get to add that +3 to the damage too? I think we would say yes. I personally believe the intention of the magic attack is to directly state that the damage is magical (ignores resistance/immunity to bludgeoning damage from a non-magical source) and not to state that the cantrip itself inflicts the damage. Overall, I think it's easier if we just agree to disagree from this part since I don't think we will ever agree about how it's meant to work and it's just one cantrip that barely anybody will use because it's not really any good outside of certain niche situations where there are already alternative solutions too.
You only add the enchantment bonus to weapon attacks, not ranged spell attacks, Slung or thrown, +X Rod of the Pact Keeper is fine, because that modifies spell attacks.
It does say "The weapon's damage die becomes d8". This does mean that the effect of the spell is altering the weapon, and that's all the spell does.
That's just straight up false, Shillelagh. It straight up says you can use your spellcasting ability modifier instead of strength, which is a much bigger deal then just increasing to a D8, and that D8 upscales with level too. Further too that Shillelagh gives you the option to inflict Force Damage, if that isn't modifying the attack in a significant way, I do not know what is. So shillelagh does way more than you're implying.
The wording of Agonizing Blast is "a Warlock Cantrip That Deals Damage". Shillelagh does not specify a condition under which the spell does damage, just that it alters the properties of an object, and thus does not work with Agonizing Blast. Magic Stone does specify a condition for dealing damage as part of its spell effect, and thus does work with Agonizing Blast.
This is incorrect, Magic Stone does not do damage, it changes the damage formula of an attack, that is not the cantrip doing damage, it is still the attack doing the damage and Magic Stone itself contains no attack, thus the attack is part of a different action and the damage is part of that attack, as per making an attack.
3. Resolve the Attack. Make the attack roll, as detailed earlier in this chapter. On a hit, you roll damage unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.
All magic stone does, is specify some other special effect for the attack, in that the damage formula is different.
The other things Shillelagh does are also modifications of the weapons, but they don't really matter for answering the question "Is this spell a cantrip that does damage" because the only damage die/bonuses mentioned in the spell effect pertain to the stats of the item, which then have to be resolved through the normal attack rules.
The effect of Magic Stone is worded in a way directly analogous to Produce Flame. It creates an object (Pebbes vs Flame), containing a spell effect that can later be triggered (Hurling vs Take a Magic Action), to activate an attack (both say ranged spell attack), that causes the target to take damage on hit. If Magic Stone was just altering the sling like shillelagh, it should have specified that it was altering the sling's damage die and using your casting stat for attack rolls and damage bonuses, or to treat the stone as a throw weapon with that damage die.
Just because the trigger is making an attack and the the spell effect is similar to those of making a normal attack by a weapon doesn't mean it's not the cantrip dealing the damage. Plenty of cantrips deal damage through an attack roll and use the exact same wording as magic stone, and at least one other, Produce Flame, has a similar delayed trigger for the spell effect.
[...] Green-flame Blade and Booming Blade deal secondary damage that might qualify for Agonizing Blast, but not Repelling Blast.
Not sure if I understood this part correctly, and if you're referring only to the secondary damage in relation to Repelling Blast.
I just wanted to add that regarding Repelling Blast (or Seeking Spell and Innate Sorcery), IMO it interacts with Magic Stone, Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade, or True Strike since those features only require attack rolls of spells or cantrips.
If it's useful for anyone, there are related questions on the forums:
[...] Green-flame Blade and Booming Blade deal secondary damage that might qualify for Agonizing Blast, but not Repelling Blast.
Not sure if I understood this part correctly, and if you're referring only to the secondary damage in relation to Repelling Blast.
Yes. For example, Booming Blade has some debate as to whether the primary damage is a weapon attack that the spell modifies or an attack of the spell itself, but regardless, the secondary damage qualifies for "a Warlock Cantrip That Deals Damage" but not "a Warlock Cantrip That Deals Damage via an Attack Roll".
[...] Green-flame Blade and Booming Blade deal secondary damage that might qualify for Agonizing Blast, but not Repelling Blast.
Not sure if I understood this part correctly, and if you're referring only to the secondary damage in relation to Repelling Blast.
I just wanted to add that regarding Repelling Blast (or Seeking Spell and Innate Sorcery), IMO it interacts with Magic Stone, Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade, or True Strike since those features only require attack rolls of spells or cantrips.
If it's useful for anyone, there are related questions on the forums:
Reading through most of this my personal opinion read on magic stone is.
1. it works with agonizing blast. It is a spell that attacks and does damage, it is acting in a sense like a delayed blast rock to the face and instead of a round countdown it has a trigger mechanism of throwing the stone. Shillelagh I can see going either way, it is different but its not so different that I can't see the argument for it working.
2. It is a spell attack and not a normal attack so you can only throw one no matter how many attacks you normally can do in a round.
3. Despite 2 it still has niche uses, especially if you are a bit away and can prep for a couple rounds. And some cantrips just flat out are worse and better than others. I wish they were more balanced but so be it.
4. The sling line is just a legacy artifact from older editions, it does not matter if its a magic sling, your favorite child hood sling or whatever it acts the same in all cases, and is literally the same as throwing it.
Opinions on how they should have written it. They probably should have used attack roll or save for all of these with the note only works on a failed save for agonizing/repelling etc. On top of that the invocations should just work on all applicable cantrips instead of having to pick the invocation for each cantrip. They should probably have some baked in limits on how many times you can apply your stat to to hit/dmg. All the cantrips should use a spell attack system, as imo should pact of the blade. But I have a fairly large loathing for mechanics that motivate dips. Shillelagh either should be rewritten to a per attack cantrip you use every round that scales like other cantrips. Or it should be clear its not an attack cantrip its a transmutation cantrip that makes a stick more bad ass, and therefore does not work with repelling etc. And obviously they should have been more clear and I do not know why they are allergic to it, but add more side bars with examples on how these things work and don't work, so people have a closer idea of the intent to better interpret the RAW.(like hide for example, yeesh)
4. The sling line is just a legacy artifact from older editions, it does not matter if its a magic sling, your favorite child hood sling or whatever it acts the same in all cases, and is literally the same as throwing it.
Caveat on that, Crawford did clarify a while ago that it is considered a spell attack with a weapon if you use a sling, and thus work with features that mention attacks with weapons, but not ones that mention weapon attacks. So it's not literally the same as throwing it.
You said thirsting blade and devouring blade could not apply except for magical slings. That is not true because the Hoopak exists and can be summoned by Pact of the Blade. It's a Dragonlance item, but it's reasonable to adapt to other campaigns if your GM is okay with it. It should be available in a Planescape setting as well.
Where exactly are the rules on how far away a verbal spell components can be heard? Please, provide the non-handwaved rule that provides a concrete definition of that range. Or how loud the verbal components are. Yeah, there are a lot of doors and with them a lot of checks for traps and other door routines. Hex use a Bonus Action to set the target and none to deal extra damage. In single encounters, you can get by with a single casting (or setting the target from a prior casting) and both Magic Stone and Polearm Master are unrestricted.
If you're getting 2+ attacks with a melee weapon, you aren't likely to trigger the Polearm Master reaction unless you lose initiative or the encounter has multiple melee enemies, but even then, it's likely once per encounter.
I forgot about the once per turn on Crusher. I was trying to figure out ways to trigger falling without Push mastery or Repelling Blast. If you can trigger the falling consistently, that is the reliable way to get advantage, not Enhanced Critical, not Topple. You can, however, use Crusher's Push to move an enemy through a Spike Growth, away from someone who just hit with Booming Blade. Topple's effectiveness will vary by enemy, but drops off unsurprisingly against higher CR enemies where advantage is more critical than against a cluster of lower CR opponents. Magic Stone is also nice because you don't have to invest any of the feats to maximize it. Bonus Action cast it on pebbles via your invisible familiar and you eldritch blast with your action. Your ally with the feat investments and weapon masteries actually does the stone toss. Or you just pass them out to someone who doesn't otherwise have an effective attack.
Shillelagh and Polearm Master don't really help with using Magic Stone with Agonizing Blast, though.
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My houserulings.
Where permits anything but a sling in the magic stone spell itself? If you threw a magic stone with a catapult, it would not activate the spell effect on the stone since the spell does not permit that.
So either A, the Hoopak counts as a sling, it is a sling and can be used as a sling or B the Hoopak acts as sling but is not a sling itself, it can not be used as a sling for the magic stone spell. Either way what I said about a sling remain true, this is no different from how Shillelagh can only be cast on clubs or quarterstaffs, and oh, you can cast shillelagh on a staff since a staff can be used as a quarterstaff? yes or no? if yes, well it's because a staff is also a quarterstaff.
If Verbal components can't be heard, then why do they sound like nonsense to the uninitiated? Clearly they are audible, it is also clearly stated they are chants after all. Additionally for the very purpose of avoiding this, the Subtle Spell metamagic exists, if the DM isn't checking if things can hear you then they are basically giving you a class feature for free.
It is up to the DM to determine how far it goes, additionally how different creatures would perceive it, that is why there is no hard and vast rule but if somebody is casting a spell 1 room over and there is no other sound, it'll be audible to the average human, to some creatures it may even be audible 1/2 rooms over, something like a Blink Dog might hear you two rooms over while that same Blink Dog might not hear a thing if the room has a waterfall in it. So it's situational however clearly, any verbal spell without the benefit of Subtle Spell can be counter spelled, 60 foot. So that's a good minimum over how far a spell can be heard audibly enough to be counter spelled, even when there is a waterfall in the room, it's still 60 foot.
There are multiple ways with warlock to get them multiple times per encounter actually, the easiest is to get weapon mastery feat and wield a Pike, you push the creature back 10 foot, it has to run back into range if it's melee and re-triggers the attack.
Now with Shillelagh, if you topple the creature, you can also just walk out of range.
You might intentionally trigger opportunity attacks if you're using Armor of Agathys to proc more damage output, tho that does risk concentration checks if using a concentration spell.
There is also mixing in Eldritch Blast with Repelling Blast and spell sniper to create distance. Having Devil's sight and using darkness, gives advantage against a lot of foes and you can not opportunity attack what you can not see... so plenty of ways for a Warlock to do this.
The push is 5 foot, you'd do more just using a pike with weapon master or hitting with repelling blast, here Crusher is just pointless, Topple is still better and has no size limitation like Crusher does, where Crusher quickly loses it's only consistent perk. If you're getting Crusher then really, you're going for a Crit fishing build to be triggering the advantage a lot, whereas Warlock simply doesn't have that. A Raging Barbarian, A Champion Fighter or An Oath of Vengance Paladin meanwhile can potentially get a lot of critical hits . It's really not the feat I would select for this build, unless you're really after constitution and for some reason resilient (constitution) isn't an option for you.
I would say that Agonizing Blast isn't applicable to Magic Stone for the exact same reasons that Agonizing Blast isn't applicable to Shillelagh, so either they both get it or neither, and I'd say with how Agonizing Blast is written, it's neither.
Most people aren't going to put a weapon mastery into Sling, it's really for Niche situations where your STR based front-liners don't have long ranged attacks, you can help them do a bit more damage but for a Barbarian, it's an attack they do not use Strength (so not applicable to range) and for Paladin it's a ranged attack (so anything reliant on melee isn't working). It just changes very sub-par ranged damage to just being sub-par ranged damage. Now for the Paladin, there is a few ways to get some cantrip of their own and those cantrips will just be better, for the barbarian, they can reckless attack to throw javelins up to 120 foot with normal attacks, so it's really down to fighter or paladins that haven't got a charisma based ranged cantrip.
I would have to disagree, the mechanics of those spells are meaningfully different in a way that affects the RAW compatibility with Agonizing Blast.
The Magic Stone sets up a magical effect that can be triggered at a later point by making an attack (hurling or flinging it) and then replaces the normal resolution of that attack (similar to how Lightning Arrow replaces the effects of a regular attack). The resulting spell effect with a damaging spell attack, potentially with a weapon if you used a sling, and would therefore work with agonizing blast, and also anything that requires an attack with a weapon/sling.
Conversely, the only spell effect of Shillelagh is altering the properties of the enchanted weapon, (the weapon's damage die becomes d8 and you can use your spell casting modifier when making attacks with it), but it doesn't specify any attacks being made or any damage being dealt as a result of such an attack, leaving you instead to resolve it through the regular rules of making attacks with weapons. It's therefore not the spell itself dealing damage through an attack roll, and it would not work with agonizing blast.
I'd first say that Shillelagh no longer makes a weapon magical, so it's not "enchanting" the weapon persay. 2nd the effect of Shillelagh is that it replaces the normal resolution of all attacks with the weapon. It really isn't changing much, since it's just altering the effects of following attack actions that are required to activate either of them, there is nothing to differentiate it based on Shillelagh allowing the same club/quarterstaff being able to make multiple attacks and magic stone only making stones that allows only 1 attack, either way the spells are modifying both the attack rolls and damage rolls of both weapons and in basically the same way.
It does say "The weapon's damage die becomes d8". This does mean that the effect of the spell is altering the weapon, and that's all the spell does.
Conversely, Magic Stone specifies as part of its effect a spell attack that leads to damage, and a trigger for this spell attack to occur.
The wording of Agonizing Blast is "a Warlock Cantrip That Deals Damage".
Shillelagh does not specify a condition under which the spell does damage, just that it alters the properties of an object, and thus does not work with Agonizing Blast.
Magic Stone does specify a condition for dealing damage as part of its spell effect, and thus does work with Agonizing Blast.
I'm not sure what your final sentence about making stones only allowing one attack has to do with anything, as long as you have stones left you should be able to activate the spell attack as often as the triggering condition happens, and flinging stone from a sling should work with extra attack even if the resulting attack gets replaced with a spell effect?
I think the more appropriate quote would be "The words must be uttered in a normal speaking voice."
GM fiat is not RAW nor RAI. There is no defined volume for Verbal Spell Components. But, I agree that the best guidance we have is that they must be recognizable as such within 60 feet (the range of Counterspell). However, that does not inherently set a maximum limit, it's still the best guideline we have.
That blink dog probably heard the Fighter in plate about the same distance away or more. Scouts and door routines are a good idea regardless of party composition and can affect the rest of your routine.
5 feet is still 5 feet and can be off a cliff, away from an ally, towards an ally. (Someone else's) Spike Growth add 2d4 damage and your own Hex will add another 1d6. However, if you want, you can pass it off to a Raging Barbarian, Champion Fighter, or Oath of Vengeance Paladin (who all forgot their ranged weapons today) and let them invest in Crusher instead of you.
Handing them off to a level 9+ fighter with Crusher could allow for a 15 foot push and guaranteed fall (against a non-flying Large or smaller enemy). A Rune Knight could get the 5 foot push on larger enemies, but not the 15 feet.
Shillelagh doesn't give an object a spell attack.it didn't already have. Magic Stone does. It's in a weird place, granted, but it is not the same situation of Shillelagh.
At the end of the day, Topple and Shillelagh don't matter. This is a thread about Magic Stone, Agonizing Blast, and using it with a Sling.
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That's just straight up false, Shillelagh. It straight up says you can use your spellcasting ability modifier instead of strength, which is a much bigger deal then just increasing to a D8, and that D8 upscales with level too. Further too that Shillelagh gives you the option to inflict Force Damage, if that isn't modifying the attack in a significant way, I do not know what is. So shillelagh does way more than you're implying.
This is incorrect, Magic Stone does not do damage, it changes the damage formula of an attack, that is not the cantrip doing damage, it is still the attack doing the damage and Magic Stone itself contains no attack, thus the attack is part of a different action and the damage is part of that attack, as per making an attack.
All magic stone does, is specify some other special effect for the attack, in that the damage formula is different.
Why are we wasting time on this? It's irrelevant, either you say
A) Hoopak IS a sling and thus applicable to the spell BECAUSE IT'S A SLING
B) Hoopak can be used as a sling but isn't a sling thus is not applicable to the spell BECAUSE IT'S NOT A SLING
Either way, this has been a pointless tangent, you're goal was to prove me wrong that only slings are usable, but that's literally what the spell states.
Right, so I'm not saying every situation is the same, there are cases you could cast it in the room before, but acting like that'll always work in a quiet location with little other noise, it'd be noticeable, personally I'd say as Verbal components explicitly state they are chanted using specific pitches and the such, they are clearly going to be more noticeable than normal speech and there are areas where normal speech break things, like hiding. There is no minimum or maximum distance for sound but a DM should not hand wave it 100% of the time, that's just as bad as never hand waving it at all and as a player, roleplaying the situation, you shouldn't just be power gaming it up as that's how adventurers would take on such a situation, clearly stealth is an important part of the game and audible chanting doesn't fit in with stealth and careful exploration.
The point here is that there are multiple other ways that a warlock gets push, including their most famous spell, which can get repelling blast. you say 5 foot is 5 foot, but 10 foot is 10 foot. Is a 10 foot push better than a 5 foot push? Well?
If your Barbarian, Fighter and Paladin all forgot their thrown weapons, somebody should be chasing them up on that or the party sets a quartermaster for the basic supplies like javelins, daggers, light hammer, etc.
Yes, Shillelagh/Topple were just for comparison sake to just show that Magic Stone is very behind as a cantrip, it's for a niche usage and even that niche is weak.
I would ultimately say that while Magic Stone says it's a magic ranged attack, it supplies no method itself to perform that past throwing it (which is part of an attack action) or using it in a sling (which is part of an attack action), nothing says the attack of that attack action is replaced by the cantrip's attack but rather that the attack is magic instead of a normal weapon attack, it would still be the attack of the attack action however and the attack/damage resolved would be of that attack action which is modified by the cantrip. We can debate this further but there is nothing in the spell that specifies the attack used is fully replaced out or that the damage is actually the result of the cantrip, it just modifies the damage.
After all, if using a +3 sling, would we say that you get to add that +3 to the damage too? I think we would say yes. I personally believe the intention of the magic attack is to directly state that the damage is magical (ignores resistance/immunity to bludgeoning damage from a non-magical source) and not to state that the cantrip itself inflicts the damage. Overall, I think it's easier if we just agree to disagree from this part since I don't think we will ever agree about how it's meant to work and it's just one cantrip that barely anybody will use because it's not really any good outside of certain niche situations where there are already alternative solutions too.
Magic Stone was first published for 5e in the Elemental Evil's Player Companion in 2015 and then reprinted in Xanathar's in 2017. The Hoopak was published for 5e in Dragonlance in 2022, five year's later. At the time Magic Stone was published it was the PHB sling was the only sling available. After Dragonlance, you have the Hoopak which can use sling ammunition FOR THE SLING ON THE END OF THE STAFF because that's literally what the item states.
Now, if we're done shouting. It mostly matters as one of, but not the only, method of using Pact Weapons with Magic Stone, if you subscribe to the belief that you are using an Attack Action to attack with a Magic Stone. If not, the only potential benefit is for the slightly increased range over a shepard's sling.
Scouts usually travel ahead of the loud party members because not everyone is going to be stealthy and most of a well armed adventuring group will be audible.
I suppose if Agonizing Blast applies to Magic Stone, then Repelling Blast applies as well and 15 foot push is better than a 10 foot push.
It's not really relevant to the questions asked.
In the 2014 or 2024 rules, what examples can you give of a ranged or melee spell attack being made as part of the Attack Action, apart from College of Valor and Eldritch Knight's Extra Attack or Battle Magic Features? Why is Pact Weapon attacks a weapon attack using your spellcasting modifier instead of Strength or Dexterity? Because Magic Stone attacks are not Weapon Attacks.
You only add the enchantment bonus to weapon attacks, not ranged spell attacks, Slung or thrown, +X Rod of the Pact Keeper is fine, because that modifies spell attacks.
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My houserulings.
There is no weapon attack. Green-flame Blade (also 2014 rules) specifies resolving a weapon attack. Magic Stone is explicitly a spell attack.
That said, if you still consider it a weapon attack, then Extra Attack works with it, but Agonizing Blast doesn't.
Green-flame Blade and Booming Blade deal secondary damage that might qualify for Agonizing Blast, but not Repelling Blast.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Yeah, I removed my reply. The interaction with MS is debatable as this thread demonstrates.
I agree Agonizing Blast could interact with BB, GFB, or even TS at higher levels.
Sorry for the interference.
The other things Shillelagh does are also modifications of the weapons, but they don't really matter for answering the question "Is this spell a cantrip that does damage" because the only damage die/bonuses mentioned in the spell effect pertain to the stats of the item, which then have to be resolved through the normal attack rules.
The effect of Magic Stone is worded in a way directly analogous to Produce Flame. It creates an object (Pebbes vs Flame), containing a spell effect that can later be triggered (Hurling vs Take a Magic Action), to activate an attack (both say ranged spell attack), that causes the target to take damage on hit. If Magic Stone was just altering the sling like shillelagh, it should have specified that it was altering the sling's damage die and using your casting stat for attack rolls and damage bonuses, or to treat the stone as a throw weapon with that damage die.
Just because the trigger is making an attack and the the spell effect is similar to those of making a normal attack by a weapon doesn't mean it's not the cantrip dealing the damage. Plenty of cantrips deal damage through an attack roll and use the exact same wording as magic stone, and at least one other, Produce Flame, has a similar delayed trigger for the spell effect.
Not sure if I understood this part correctly, and if you're referring only to the secondary damage in relation to Repelling Blast.
I just wanted to add that regarding Repelling Blast (or Seeking Spell and Innate Sorcery), IMO it interacts with Magic Stone, Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade, or True Strike since those features only require attack rolls of spells or cantrips.
If it's useful for anyone, there are related questions on the forums:
EDIT: for clarity.
Yes. For example, Booming Blade has some debate as to whether the primary damage is a weapon attack that the spell modifies or an attack of the spell itself, but regardless, the secondary damage qualifies for "a Warlock Cantrip That Deals Damage" but not "a Warlock Cantrip That Deals Damage via an Attack Roll".
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I wish they had stuck with damaging cantrip. It would be hilarious to throw people across the room with toll of the dead, mind sliver etc.
Reading through most of this my personal opinion read on magic stone is.
1. it works with agonizing blast. It is a spell that attacks and does damage, it is acting in a sense like a delayed blast rock to the face and instead of a round countdown it has a trigger mechanism of throwing the stone. Shillelagh I can see going either way, it is different but its not so different that I can't see the argument for it working.
2. It is a spell attack and not a normal attack so you can only throw one no matter how many attacks you normally can do in a round.
3. Despite 2 it still has niche uses, especially if you are a bit away and can prep for a couple rounds. And some cantrips just flat out are worse and better than others. I wish they were more balanced but so be it.
4. The sling line is just a legacy artifact from older editions, it does not matter if its a magic sling, your favorite child hood sling or whatever it acts the same in all cases, and is literally the same as throwing it.
Opinions on how they should have written it. They probably should have used attack roll or save for all of these with the note only works on a failed save for agonizing/repelling etc. On top of that the invocations should just work on all applicable cantrips instead of having to pick the invocation for each cantrip. They should probably have some baked in limits on how many times you can apply your stat to to hit/dmg. All the cantrips should use a spell attack system, as imo should pact of the blade. But I have a fairly large loathing for mechanics that motivate dips. Shillelagh either should be rewritten to a per attack cantrip you use every round that scales like other cantrips. Or it should be clear its not an attack cantrip its a transmutation cantrip that makes a stick more bad ass, and therefore does not work with repelling etc. And obviously they should have been more clear and I do not know why they are allergic to it, but add more side bars with examples on how these things work and don't work, so people have a closer idea of the intent to better interpret the RAW.(like hide for example, yeesh)
Caveat on that, Crawford did clarify a while ago that it is considered a spell attack with a weapon if you use a sling, and thus work with features that mention attacks with weapons, but not ones that mention weapon attacks. So it's not literally the same as throwing it.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/can-you-confirm-whether-magic-stone-is-meant-to-be-treated-in-any-way-as-a-weapon-attack