I'm going to put the kabash on this fourth attack. The Light property, as well as Enhanced Dual Wield, is only triggered with the Attack ACTION, not the Extra Attack FEATURE. Pretty clear there. That's RAW. It doesn't say when you make an attack for Light or Enhanced Dual Wield, it's pretty clear that you need the Attack ACTION, with is not just any attack. So you get three attacks with 2 weapons via either/or/both Nick Weapon Mastery or Dual Wield feat, and do not use your bonus action. But you can only use whatever gives you a BONUS ACTION - bonus action item, spell, Rogue's Cunning Action, etc.. Not an attack with a weapon in 2024. That's how I read it, sorry.
I'm going to put the kabash on this fourth attack. The Light property, as well as Enhanced Dual Wield, is only triggered with the Attack ACTION, not the Extra Attack FEATURE. Pretty clear there. That's RAW. It doesn't say when you make an attack for Light or Enhanced Dual Wield, it's pretty clear that you need the Attack ACTION, with is not just any attack. So you get three attacks with 2 weapons via either/or/both Nick Weapon Mastery or Dual Wield feat, and do not use your bonus action. But you can only use whatever gives you a BONUS ACTION - bonus action item, spell, Rogue's Cunning Action, etc.. Not an attack with a weapon in 2024. That's how I read it, sorry.
The Dual Wielder feat extra attack do use your Bonus Action.
Yes, it does, but only if you use an Attack ACTION, not extra attack feature. Previously, someone showed how they could get 4 attacks with 2 weapons via Light, Nick and Dual Wielder. But that is not possible. With a Nick weapon and Light weapon in at least one hand, you can at best get 3 weapon attacks, without using your bonus action.
Yes, it does, but only if you use an Attack ACTION, not extra attack feature. Previously, someone showed how they could get 4 attacks with 2 weapons via Light, Nick and Dual Wielder. But that is not possible. With a Nick weapon and Light weapon in at least one hand, you can at best get 3 weapon attacks, without using your bonus action.
Extra Attack is a feature that is explicitly used only when you take the Attack action. It is not a separate type of action.
Yes, it does, but only if you use an Attack ACTION, not extra attack feature. Previously, someone showed how they could get 4 attacks with 2 weapons via Light, Nick and Dual Wielder. But that is not possible. With a Nick weapon and Light weapon in at least one hand, you can at best get 3 weapon attacks, without using your bonus action.
Lvl 5 fighter with Dual Wielder feat holding two scimitars:
- Takes Attack action, gets two attacks via Extra Attack - Makes third attack as part of Attack action via Nick - Makes fourth attack as Bonus Action via Dual Wielder
Dual Wielder very explicitly gives you a Bonus Action attack
Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yes, it does, but only if you use an Attack ACTION, not extra attack feature. Previously, someone showed how they could get 4 attacks with 2 weapons via Light, Nick and Dual Wielder. But that is not possible. With a Nick weapon and Light weapon in at least one hand, you can at best get 3 weapon attacks, without using your bonus action.
That is possible see countdown below;
Attack action: 1 attack
Attack action + Nick Mastery: 2 attacks
Attack action + Nick Mastery + Dual Wielder: 3 attacks
Attack action + Nick Mastery + Dual Wielder + Extra Attack: 4 attacks
Yes but that uses the bonus action. For anyone not a fighter the best you can d is 3 attacks ( attack, extra attack, Nick attack) without using the bonus action.
Yes but that uses the bonus action. For anyone not a fighter the best you can d is 3 attacks ( attack, extra attack, Nick attack) without using the bonus action.
That's what Dual Wielder does though -- gives you a Bonus Action attack. The claim was that you couldn't get four attacks with Dual Wielder
Any class that has an Extra Attack feature can get four attacks in a turn using Dual Wielder and Nick weapon mastery
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This from Tony 1852's post "you can at best get 3 weapon attacks, without using your bonus action." he is specifically talking about not using the bonus action. With the bonus action yes you can get 4 attacks and fighters even more at higher levels.
This from Tony 1852's post "you can at best get 3 weapon attacks, without using your bonus action." he is specifically talking about not using the bonus action. With the bonus action yes you can get 4 attacks and fighters even more at higher levels.
And what does the rest of his post say?
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This from Tony 1852's post "you can at best get 3 weapon attacks, without using your bonus action." he is specifically talking about not using the bonus action. With the bonus action yes you can get 4 attacks and fighters even more at higher levels.
I am not clear on what they were trying to say. Maybe that they've seen people try to argue that Nick affects the Bonus Action from Enhanced Dual Wielder, allowing you to make your attacks from the normal attack action (1 - 4 attacks), plus the extra attack from Light and Nick Mastery (1 attack), plus the extra attack from Enhanced Dual Wielder which requires a Light Weapon (1 attack) for 3-7 attacks just using the attack action and leaving your bonus action available.
I'm going to put the kabash on this fourth attack. The Light property, as well as Enhanced Dual Wield, is only triggered with the Attack ACTION, not the Extra Attack FEATURE.
The Extra Attacks feature modifies the number of attacks you make during the attack action. It is not a separate action. If you are specifically referring to the Echo Knight's Unleash Incarnation, it is limited in uses but there is no indicator that is separate from the attack action so an attack made with that extra attack could potentially trigger the Light or Enhanced Dual Wield conditions.
Extra attack is part of the attack action for those classes and sub classes that get it at L5/6. Light weapons allow you to use your bonus action to take an additional attack with your bonus action if you are wielding 2 separate light weapons. The Nick mastery, for those that get it, allows you to move that bonus action attack ( from the light weapon two weapon fighting) into the attack action freeing up your bonus action for other things - typically spell casting things like hunters mark or IF you have dual wielding using its bonus action attack.Enhanced dual wielding allows you to wield a non light weapon ( or the second light weapon) making a bonus action attack - however, you only get one bonus action a round. Nick does not nteract with enhanced dual wielding. So - L1-4 the most you can do is a total of 3 attacks if you have dual wielding: your primary attack, your Nick light weapons two weapon fighting attack in your attack action and finally your dual wielding bonus attack. From L5/6 to 10 you max out at 4 attacks with the extra attack feature granting an additional attack as part of the attack action but otherwise unchanged. At L11 the fighter gets an additional extra attack (so 3 standard attacks) as part of their attack action plus the Nick attack and the bonus action dual wielding attack for a total of 5 attacks. At L19/20 ( can’t remember which off hand) fighters get their 4th standard attacks with the meaning they could potentially have 6 attacks with Nick and dual wielding. This all works (best) wielding 2 light weapons as dropping weapons is no longer a free action but counts as one of your weapon interactions making sheathing and drawing weapons over and over quickly exceeds the number of such interactions allowed unless you are drawing and throwing daggers or axes. I’m really not sure why you are having troubles with this as it helps bth keeping light weapons martials even with heavy weapon martials and keeping martials in general closer to casters.
So - L1-4 the most you can do is a total of 3 attacks if you have dual wielding: your primary attack, your Nick light weapons two weapon fighting attack in your attack action and finally your dual wielding bonus attack.
Your post is mostly correct. However, someone brought up the Echo Knight's (Fighter subclass from Explorer's Guide to Wildemont) Unleash Incarnation ability (level 3 subclass ability). Unleash Incarnation gives you one extra attack from your Echo's space when you take the attack action a limited number of times per long rest with no action specified for this ability. In addition, you will need to be level 4 to take Dual Wielder.
For an Echo Knight without Haste and without Action Surge, the limit is:
level 1-3: 2 attacks (attack action plus light weapon)
level 3: 3 attacks (attack action plus light weapon, plus echo)
level 4: 4 attacks (attack action plus light weapon, plus echo, plus enhanced dual wielder)
From level 5+, it is as you say except that Unleash Incarnation adds one to the number culminating at 6 attacks at level 20 (19 is always the Epic Boon).
Other fighters and Echo Knights when not using Unleash Incarnation will be limited as you described. Nick does not affect the extra attack from Enhanced Dual Wielder and I don't know if Tony1852 was trying to argue that it does. It seemed like Tony1852 was trying to say that if you attack with a Nick weapon, you can attack with the bonus attack from the Light Weapon Property or Enhanced Dual Wield as part of the Attack Action but no bonus actions are available for attacks.
I'm going to put the kabash on this fourth attack. The Light property, as well as Enhanced Dual Wield, is only triggered with the Attack ACTION, not the Extra Attack FEATURE. Pretty clear there. That's RAW. It doesn't say when you make an attack for Light or Enhanced Dual Wield, it's pretty clear that you need the Attack ACTION, with is not just any attack. So you get three attacks with 2 weapons via either/or/both Nick Weapon Mastery or Dual Wield feat, and do not use your bonus action. But you can only use whatever gives you a BONUS ACTION - bonus action item, spell, Rogue's Cunning Action, etc.. Not an attack with a weapon in 2024. That's how I read it, sorry.
Yes, it does, but only if you use an Attack ACTION, not extra attack feature. Previously, someone showed how they could get 4 attacks with 2 weapons via Light, Nick and Dual Wielder. But that is not possible. With a Nick weapon and Light weapon in at least one hand, you can at best get 3 weapon attacks, without using your bonus action.
I read that as Tony1852 saying that:
with the attack action and a Nick weapon, you can attack once from the basic attack action and once from the Light Weapon property as part of the attack action, leaving your Bonus Action available other than for additional attacks.
with the attack action, a Nick weapon, and Dual Wielder, you can attack once from the basic attack action and once from the Enhanced Dual Wielding feature as part of the attack action, leaving your Bonus Action available other than for additional attacks from the Light Property and Enhanced Dual Wielding.
Tony1852 may even be claiming that you cannot combine Extra Attack with the extra attack from Light and Dual Wielder.
Only the first bullet is accurate according to RAW.
However, someone brought up the Echo Knight's (Fighter subclass from Explorer's Guide to Wildemont) Unleash Incarnation ability (level 3 subclass ability).
Hunter ranger's Horde Breaker feature -- which is actually in the 5e24 rules -- can also add another attack to the sequence
Horde Breaker. Once on each of your turns when you make an attack with a weapon, you can make another attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target, that is within the weapon’s range, and that you haven’t attacked this turn.
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Mostly Tony for Smite and Anton: yes the subclass features would add an additional attack to the attack action. However the questions have always been more about how Nick, light weapons two weapon two weapon fighting and enhanced dual wielding interact than about total maximum number of attacks possible. I think we have explained that to death , if anyone is still confused feel free to keep asking questions.
I'm going to put the kabash on this fourth attack. The Light property, as well as Enhanced Dual Wield, is only triggered with the Attack ACTION, not the Extra Attack FEATURE. Pretty clear there. That's RAW. It doesn't say when you make an attack for Light or Enhanced Dual Wield, it's pretty clear that you need the Attack ACTION, with is not just any attack. So you get three attacks with 2 weapons via either/or/both Nick Weapon Mastery or Dual Wield feat, and do not use your bonus action. But you can only use whatever gives you a BONUS ACTION - bonus action item, spell, Rogue's Cunning Action, etc.. Not an attack with a weapon in 2024. That's how I read it, sorry.
The Dual Wielder feat extra attack do use your Bonus Action.
Yes, it does, but only if you use an Attack ACTION, not extra attack feature. Previously, someone showed how they could get 4 attacks with 2 weapons via Light, Nick and Dual Wielder. But that is not possible. With a Nick weapon and Light weapon in at least one hand, you can at best get 3 weapon attacks, without using your bonus action.
Extra Attack is a feature that is explicitly used only when you take the Attack action. It is not a separate type of action.
pronouns: he/she/they
Lvl 5 fighter with Dual Wielder feat holding two scimitars:
- Takes Attack action, gets two attacks via Extra Attack
- Makes third attack as part of Attack action via Nick
- Makes fourth attack as Bonus Action via Dual Wielder
Dual Wielder very explicitly gives you a Bonus Action attack
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
That is possible see countdown below;
Attack action: 1 attack
Attack action + Nick Mastery: 2 attacks
Attack action + Nick Mastery + Dual Wielder: 3 attacks
Attack action + Nick Mastery + Dual Wielder + Extra Attack: 4 attacks
Yes but that uses the bonus action. For anyone not a fighter the best you can d is 3 attacks ( attack, extra attack, Nick attack) without using the bonus action.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
That's what Dual Wielder does though -- gives you a Bonus Action attack. The claim was that you couldn't get four attacks with Dual Wielder
Any class that has an Extra Attack feature can get four attacks in a turn using Dual Wielder and Nick weapon mastery
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This from Tony 1852's post "you can at best get 3 weapon attacks, without using your bonus action." he is specifically talking about not using the bonus action. With the bonus action yes you can get 4 attacks and fighters even more at higher levels.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
And what does the rest of his post say?
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I am not clear on what they were trying to say. Maybe that they've seen people try to argue that Nick affects the Bonus Action from Enhanced Dual Wielder, allowing you to make your attacks from the normal attack action (1 - 4 attacks), plus the extra attack from Light and Nick Mastery (1 attack), plus the extra attack from Enhanced Dual Wielder which requires a Light Weapon (1 attack) for 3-7 attacks just using the attack action and leaving your bonus action available.
The Extra Attacks feature modifies the number of attacks you make during the attack action. It is not a separate action. If you are specifically referring to the Echo Knight's Unleash Incarnation, it is limited in uses but there is no indicator that is separate from the attack action so an attack made with that extra attack could potentially trigger the Light or Enhanced Dual Wield conditions.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Extra attack is part of the attack action for those classes and sub classes that get it at L5/6. Light weapons allow you to use your bonus action to take an additional attack with your bonus action if you are wielding 2 separate light weapons. The Nick mastery, for those that get it, allows you to move that bonus action attack ( from the light weapon two weapon fighting) into the attack action freeing up your bonus action for other things - typically spell casting things like hunters mark or IF you have dual wielding using its bonus action attack.Enhanced dual wielding allows you to wield a non light weapon ( or the second light weapon) making a bonus action attack - however, you only get one bonus action a round. Nick does not nteract with enhanced dual wielding. So - L1-4 the most you can do is a total of 3 attacks if you have dual wielding: your primary attack, your Nick light weapons two weapon fighting attack in your attack action and finally your dual wielding bonus attack. From L5/6 to 10 you max out at 4 attacks with the extra attack feature granting an additional attack as part of the attack action but otherwise unchanged. At L11 the fighter gets an additional extra attack (so 3 standard attacks) as part of their attack action plus the Nick attack and the bonus action dual wielding attack for a total of 5 attacks. At L19/20 ( can’t remember which off hand) fighters get their 4th standard attacks with the meaning they could potentially have 6 attacks with Nick and dual wielding. This all works (best) wielding 2 light weapons as dropping weapons is no longer a free action but counts as one of your weapon interactions making sheathing and drawing weapons over and over quickly exceeds the number of such interactions allowed unless you are drawing and throwing daggers or axes. I’m really not sure why you are having troubles with this as it helps bth keeping light weapons martials even with heavy weapon martials and keeping martials in general closer to casters.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
You didn't quote anyone so I don't know who were responding to.
Your post is mostly correct. However, someone brought up the Echo Knight's (Fighter subclass from Explorer's Guide to Wildemont) Unleash Incarnation ability (level 3 subclass ability). Unleash Incarnation gives you one extra attack from your Echo's space when you take the attack action a limited number of times per long rest with no action specified for this ability. In addition, you will need to be level 4 to take Dual Wielder.
For an Echo Knight without Haste and without Action Surge, the limit is:
Other fighters and Echo Knights when not using Unleash Incarnation will be limited as you described. Nick does not affect the extra attack from Enhanced Dual Wielder and I don't know if Tony1852 was trying to argue that it does. It seemed like Tony1852 was trying to say that if you attack with a Nick weapon, you can attack with the bonus attack from the Light Weapon Property or Enhanced Dual Wield as part of the Attack Action but no bonus actions are available for attacks.
I read that as Tony1852 saying that:
Only the first bullet is accurate according to RAW.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Hunter ranger's Horde Breaker feature -- which is actually in the 5e24 rules -- can also add another attack to the sequence
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Mostly Tony
for Smite and Anton: yes the subclass features would add an additional attack to the attack action. However the questions have always been more about how Nick, light weapons two weapon two weapon fighting and enhanced dual wielding interact than about total maximum number of attacks possible. I think we have explained that to death , if anyone is still confused feel free to keep asking questions.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.