Aside from Find Familiar , i'm questioning wether Eldritch Invocations spells cast without expending a spell slot effectively count as Warlock Spells taken that none of them are prepared or learned.
If the spell exists on the Warlock spell list, then it's a Warlock spell.
For example, the Invocation called Armor of Shadows allows the Warlock to cast Mage Armor. Mage Armor is not on the Warlock spell list, so this is not a Warlock spell.
Ascendent Step allows the Warlock to cast Levitate. Levitate is not on the Warlock spell list, so this is not a Warlock spell.
This is also true for False Life, Water Breathing, Disguise Self, Alter Self, Silent Image, Jump, Find Familiar, Arcane Eye and Speak with Dead.
However, the Invocation called One with Shadows allows a Warlock to cast Invisibility without expending a spell slot under certain conditions. The Invisibility spell IS on the Warlock spell list, so this IS a Warlock spell.
Unrelated to whether or not these spells are Warlock spells, it should be noted that using the Eldritch Invocations class feature to cast a spell is totally separate from using the Pact Magic class feature to cast a spell -- these methods of spellcasting each define their own rules, and you follow those rules when using whichever feature that you are using.
Right Pact Magic say If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, they count as Warlock spells for you but none of the those castable in this way do say that they're are, as opposed to spells found in L3 Warlock Subclass features.
Aside from Find Familiar , i'm questioning wether Eldritch Invocations spells cast without expending a spell slot effectively count as Warlock Spells taken that none of them are prepared or learned.
Anything you learn through Pact of the Tome is explicitly a Warlock spell
Cantrips and Rituals. When the book appears, choose three cantrips, and choose two level 1 spells that have the Ritual tag. The spells can be from any class’s spell list, and they must be spells you don’t already have prepared. While the book is on your person, you have the chosen spells prepared, and they function as Warlock spells for you.
There are only a few other invocations that give you no-slot spells that might qualify for the 'no V or S components' part of Psychic Spells because they're Illusions. If a DM rules they aren't 'Warlock spells' it's certainly not game-breaking, and I guess the fact that Pact of the Tome contains that specific language could be interpreted to mean other invocations do not grant spells which should be counted as Warlock spells
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yeah I don't think it is really clear either way. The RAW only mentions a few specific cases which could means the other spells aren't. But I think all of the 2024 ones are at will, so you don't really need language about it being added to your spell list or always being prepared, its at will. So is the lack of that language saying its not a warlock spell or is it just unneeded because its at will. But it does feel a bit weird to say a spell gained through a warlock class ability is not a warlock spell.
[...] But it does feel a bit weird to say a spell gained through a warlock class ability is not a warlock spell.
I have the same opinion.
Pact Magic states: "If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you."
And L1 Eldritch Invocations is a feature. The spells mentioned on it are really always prepared (*)
(*) I'm aware the exact wording is not there except for Pact of the Tome.
Aside from Find Familiar , i'm questioning wether Eldritch Invocations spells cast without expending a spell slot effectively count as Warlock Spells taken that none of them are prepared or learned.
Anything you learn through Pact of the Tome is explicitly a Warlock spell
Cantrips and Rituals. When the book appears, choose three cantrips, and choose two level 1 spells that have the Ritual tag. The spells can be from any class’s spell list, and they must be spells you don’t already have prepared. While the book is on your person, you have the chosen spells prepared, and they function as Warlock spells for you.
There are only a few other invocations that give you no-slot spells that might qualify for the 'no V or S components' part of Psychic Spells because they're Illusions. If a DM rules they aren't 'Warlock spells' it's certainly not game-breaking, and I guess the fact that Pact of the Tome contains that specific language could be interpreted to mean other invocations do not grant spells which should be counted as Warlock spells
An important note is that they count as Warlock Spells while you have the Tome with you. If you don't have the Tome, they are not Warlock spells unless another class feature makes it one.
[...] But it does feel a bit weird to say a spell gained through a warlock class ability is not a warlock spell.
I have the same opinion.
Pact Magic states: "If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you."
And L1 Eldritch Invocations is a feature. The spells mentioned on it are really always prepared (*)
(*) I'm aware the exact wording is not there except for Pact of the Tome.
Exactly the point i was raising RAW most Eldirtch Invocations spells aren't learned or prepared, you just gain the ability to cast them.
While not official ruling per se, the Devs have said spells you cast through the Eldritch Invocations feature are meant to be warlock spells for you. So it,s RAI at least but it seems like 5E24 didn't write that is exact wording anywhere else.
@Bloodcinder If I am a Warlock and I use an invocation to cast a spell that's not on the Warlock list (such as Levitate, Confusion, or Slow) requiring a save, does it use my Warlock spell save DC? Also, can such a spell benefit from Rod of the Pact Keeper?
@JeremyECrawford The spells you cast through the Eldritch Invocations feature are meant to be warlock spells for you. #DnD
[...] But it does feel a bit weird to say a spell gained through a warlock class ability is not a warlock spell.
I have the same opinion.
Pact Magic states: "If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you."
And L1 Eldritch Invocations is a feature. The spells mentioned on it are really always prepared (*)
(*) I'm aware the exact wording is not there except for Pact of the Tome.
Exactly the point i was raising RAW most Eldirtch Invocations spells aren't learned or prepared, you just gain the ability to cast them.
I know, I know, I was just giving my POV about how I think it should be ruled, despite the wording.
While not official ruling per se, the Devs have said spells you cast through the Eldritch Invocations feature are meant to be warlock spells for you. So it,s RAI at least but it seems like 5E24 didn't write that is exact wording anywhere else.
@Bloodcinder If I am a Warlock and I use an invocation to cast a spell that's not on the Warlock list (such as Levitate, Confusion, or Slow) requiring a save, does it use my Warlock spell save DC? Also, can such a spell benefit from Rod of the Pact Keeper?
@JeremyECrawford The spells you cast through the Eldritch Invocations feature are meant to be warlock spells for you. #DnD
Uh, a very interesting tweet, Plaguescarred, props to you for sharing it!
How old is that tweet? Is it in reference to the new edition? I'm not sure if I recognize all of the invocations. Ones involving Confusion or Slow definitely don't appear in the free rules (which I'm sticking with until about Christmas).
Alter Self and Levitate do both require a spellcasting stat but their invocations do not say that they are always prepared. One could argue that they must be prepared if you can cast them per the Ch 7 rule on gaining spells: "Before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared in your mind or have access to the spell from a magic item[.]" That rule, combined with the Warlock features statement would make them Warlock Spells for you, giving you the ability to use your warlock casting stat.
By the way, most invocations that give you free castings of spells are for spells that do not depend on casting stat at all, even though every spell should have one.
Then, as I said earlier in this thread, I think it is very dangerous to apply something definitely intended for old rules to new rules. We saw in this thread already what happens when you do: real life confusion.
So it appears that you don't learn or always have prepared any spells you can cast with Eldritch Invocations unless noted otherwise. As weird as it sounds, they should only do what they say if we don't assume anything more.
No, I don't think that is the best interpretation because otherwise you also do not have a casting stat to use with those spells, which makes some of them impossible to use and is something that the game goes out of its way to prevent in almost all instances (even when the spell does not use a casting stat at all). I think the best case is the argument I laid out above:
One could argue that they must be prepared if you can cast them per the Ch 7 rule on gaining spells: "Before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared in your mind or have access to the spell from a magic item[.]" That rule, combined with the Warlock features statement would make them Warlock Spells for you, giving you the ability to use your warlock casting stat.
No, I don't think that is the best interpretation because otherwise you also do not have a casting stat to use with those spells, which makes some of them impossible to use and is something that the game goes out of its way to prevent in almost all instances (even when the spell does not use a casting stat at all).
Warlock has a casting stat ''Charisma is the spellcasting ability for your Warlock spells.'' which the new ruleset has saving throw relying on as baseline:
Saving Throws
Many spells specify that a target makes a saving throw to avoid some or all of a spell’s effects. The spell specifies the ability that the target uses for the save and what happens on a success or failure. Here’s how to calculate the DC for your spells:
Spell save DC = 8 + your spellcasting ability modifier + your Proficiency Bonus
And unless you interpret them as warlock spells, you cannot use that, right? Without them being prepared, they are not covered by "If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you." And thus they would not count as Warlock Spells...
So you need that chapter 7 rule to tell you that they're prepared if you can cast them.
I am not even sure what point many are arguing now, if they are for or against it. But addressing the arguments whether for or against it, I think the issue is people keep going back to the added to your list part of some abilities, when that is irrelevant to whether it is a warlock spell or not. A warlock ability that grants you the ability to cast a spell whether its through pact magic or purely a invocation I can't see how it can be seen as anything other than a warlock spell.
sure in one case it specifically says it is a warlock spell for you, but that is in reference to adding a spell to your known list. That does not mean other abilities are also not warlock spells, just that it wasn't needed to point out as its not a spell being added to your list from another list. The pact of the tome you are expressly taking spells from other spell lists, so they felt a need to clarify it. Mask of many faces though, its just letting you know you cast this spell at will with this invocation, it isn't saying you take the disguise self spell from the wizards spell list.
The current course of discussion is over Plaguescarred's question in post #41. You can reread from there if you are lost.
The point is that what you feel must be a warlock spell isn't a sufficient rule. The rules tell you exactly what counts as a warlock spell, and we're trying to figure out what the implications of that definition are.
Aside from Find Familiar , i'm questioning wether Eldritch Invocations spells cast without expending a spell slot effectively count as Warlock Spells taken that none of them are prepared or learned.
Does it matter?
Only Levitate requires a save, but it's restricted to yourself when cast through Ascendant Step. Since it's not prepared, you can't use Gift of the Depths to cast Water Breathing with your spell slots.
What would these being Warlock Spells actually give you?
The invocations themselves do not give you a spellcasting stat for any of the invocation spells. To be fair, many invocation spells do not need a casting stat. But as I pointed out earlier, almost EVERY other instance of spell granting goes as far as needed out of its way to make sure you know what stat a spell is cast with, even if it isn't required by the spell at all ever for any reason.
For the 2024 invocation, it seems knowing the casting stat would tell you the DC for disguise self from Mask of Many Faces; the attack bonus for the natural attack of Alter Self from Master of Myriad Forms, and the Study DC for Silent Image given by Misty Visions,
Additionally, it would let you use your pact slots (or any other slots you have from multiclassing) to upcast them. False Life is probably better upcast than maximized as a first level spell.
If the spell exists on the Warlock spell list, then it's a Warlock spell.
For example, the Invocation called Armor of Shadows allows the Warlock to cast Mage Armor. Mage Armor is not on the Warlock spell list, so this is not a Warlock spell.
Ascendent Step allows the Warlock to cast Levitate. Levitate is not on the Warlock spell list, so this is not a Warlock spell.
This is also true for False Life, Water Breathing, Disguise Self, Alter Self, Silent Image, Jump, Find Familiar, Arcane Eye and Speak with Dead.
However, the Invocation called One with Shadows allows a Warlock to cast Invisibility without expending a spell slot under certain conditions. The Invisibility spell IS on the Warlock spell list, so this IS a Warlock spell.
Unrelated to whether or not these spells are Warlock spells, it should be noted that using the Eldritch Invocations class feature to cast a spell is totally separate from using the Pact Magic class feature to cast a spell -- these methods of spellcasting each define their own rules, and you follow those rules when using whichever feature that you are using.
Right Pact Magic say If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, they count as Warlock spells for you but none of the those castable in this way do say that they're are, as opposed to spells found in L3 Warlock Subclass features.
Anything you learn through Pact of the Tome is explicitly a Warlock spell
There are only a few other invocations that give you no-slot spells that might qualify for the 'no V or S components' part of Psychic Spells because they're Illusions. If a DM rules they aren't 'Warlock spells' it's certainly not game-breaking, and I guess the fact that Pact of the Tome contains that specific language could be interpreted to mean other invocations do not grant spells which should be counted as Warlock spells
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yeah I don't think it is really clear either way. The RAW only mentions a few specific cases which could means the other spells aren't. But I think all of the 2024 ones are at will, so you don't really need language about it being added to your spell list or always being prepared, its at will. So is the lack of that language saying its not a warlock spell or is it just unneeded because its at will. But it does feel a bit weird to say a spell gained through a warlock class ability is not a warlock spell.
I have the same opinion.
Pact Magic states: "If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you."
And L1 Eldritch Invocations is a feature. The spells mentioned on it are really always prepared (*)
(*) I'm aware the exact wording is not there except for Pact of the Tome.
An important note is that they count as Warlock Spells while you have the Tome with you. If you don't have the Tome, they are not Warlock spells unless another class feature makes it one.
Exactly the point i was raising RAW most Eldirtch Invocations spells aren't learned or prepared, you just gain the ability to cast them.
While not official ruling per se, the Devs have said spells you cast through the Eldritch Invocations feature are meant to be warlock spells for you. So it,s RAI at least but it seems like 5E24 didn't write that is exact wording anywhere else.
If Eldritch Invocations spell are always prepared then you can also normally cast them using a spell slot, and thus upcast them.
I know, I know, I was just giving my POV about how I think it should be ruled, despite the wording.
Uh, a very interesting tweet, Plaguescarred, props to you for sharing it!
How old is that tweet? Is it in reference to the new edition? I'm not sure if I recognize all of the invocations. Ones involving Confusion or Slow definitely don't appear in the free rules (which I'm sticking with until about Christmas).
Alter Self and Levitate do both require a spellcasting stat but their invocations do not say that they are always prepared. One could argue that they must be prepared if you can cast them per the Ch 7 rule on gaining spells: "Before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared in your mind or have access to the spell from a magic item[.]" That rule, combined with the Warlock features statement would make them Warlock Spells for you, giving you the ability to use your warlock casting stat.
By the way, most invocations that give you free castings of spells are for spells that do not depend on casting stat at all, even though every spell should have one.
This tweet was 2019 If I use an invocation to cast a spell that's not on the Warlock list does it use my Warlock spell save DC?
Then, as I said earlier in this thread, I think it is very dangerous to apply something definitely intended for old rules to new rules. We saw in this thread already what happens when you do: real life confusion.
So it appears that you don't learn or always have prepared any spells you can cast with Eldritch Invocations unless noted otherwise. As weird as it sounds, they should only do what they say if we don't assume anything more.
No, I don't think that is the best interpretation because otherwise you also do not have a casting stat to use with those spells, which makes some of them impossible to use and is something that the game goes out of its way to prevent in almost all instances (even when the spell does not use a casting stat at all). I think the best case is the argument I laid out above:
Warlock has a casting stat ''Charisma is the spellcasting ability for your Warlock spells.'' which the new ruleset has saving throw relying on as baseline:
And unless you interpret them as warlock spells, you cannot use that, right? Without them being prepared, they are not covered by "If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you." And thus they would not count as Warlock Spells...
So you need that chapter 7 rule to tell you that they're prepared if you can cast them.
I am not even sure what point many are arguing now, if they are for or against it. But addressing the arguments whether for or against it, I think the issue is people keep going back to the added to your list part of some abilities, when that is irrelevant to whether it is a warlock spell or not. A warlock ability that grants you the ability to cast a spell whether its through pact magic or purely a invocation I can't see how it can be seen as anything other than a warlock spell.
sure in one case it specifically says it is a warlock spell for you, but that is in reference to adding a spell to your known list. That does not mean other abilities are also not warlock spells, just that it wasn't needed to point out as its not a spell being added to your list from another list. The pact of the tome you are expressly taking spells from other spell lists, so they felt a need to clarify it. Mask of many faces though, its just letting you know you cast this spell at will with this invocation, it isn't saying you take the disguise self spell from the wizards spell list.
The current course of discussion is over Plaguescarred's question in post #41. You can reread from there if you are lost.
The point is that what you feel must be a warlock spell isn't a sufficient rule. The rules tell you exactly what counts as a warlock spell, and we're trying to figure out what the implications of that definition are.
Does it matter?
Only Levitate requires a save, but it's restricted to yourself when cast through Ascendant Step. Since it's not prepared, you can't use Gift of the Depths to cast Water Breathing with your spell slots.
What would these being Warlock Spells actually give you?
The invocations themselves do not give you a spellcasting stat for any of the invocation spells. To be fair, many invocation spells do not need a casting stat. But as I pointed out earlier, almost EVERY other instance of spell granting goes as far as needed out of its way to make sure you know what stat a spell is cast with, even if it isn't required by the spell at all ever for any reason.
For the 2024 invocation, it seems knowing the casting stat would tell you the DC for disguise self from Mask of Many Faces; the attack bonus for the natural attack of Alter Self from Master of Myriad Forms, and the Study DC for Silent Image given by Misty Visions,
Additionally, it would let you use your pact slots (or any other slots you have from multiclassing) to upcast them. False Life is probably better upcast than maximized as a first level spell.