Comparing the 2014 and 2024 versions of Shillelagh, it appears that the weapon used previously counted as one of the Material components, so the Club and the mistletoe could have been manipulated in the same hand. Now the weapon isn’t included so you need a separate hand for the M component (unless your Quarterstaff is also a Druidic focus).
I wonder if the discrepancy between the Club and the Quarterstaff is intentional?
This is the heart of the matter.
A strict, most-correct reading of RAW suggests that they removed the weapon from the material components list to make it so that only Druids and Rangers could effectively combine Shillelagh with a Shield (short of using an equip action after casting). Sure, why not?
However, that that same trick can't be used with a Club, but only with a Druid's focus acting as a Quarterstaff, makes it seem less intentional. It could just be the case that whichever editor did the final pass on the spell expected the weapon to act as an implicit material component, to save a tiny bit of wordcount. I don't think there's any problem at all with a DM ruling in that direction, to let, say, Paladins and Fighters with Magic Initiate (Druid) have a little more fun with the spell. As in 2014, they could just let characters keep a sprig of mistletoe tied to the weapon, near the grip, and otherwise not worry about it.
A little late to the conversation, but I would say that a strict reading of the RAW is difficult.
Previously a club or quarterstaff were material components that were not consumed. They did not have costs associated with them in the spell description but they are defined pieces of equipment with costs (minimum 1 sp). So are they costly material components? If so, you can't use a Druidic Focus to cast the spell.
Now, there are no costly weapons included as material components. A druidic focus can now be used without question. You still need a quarterstaff or club to be affected by the spell. I think it's a change for clarity.
It actually doesn't matter what class you are, it matters how you know the spell. Magic Initiate (druid) doesn't tell you that the spells count as druid spells for you, so even if you are a druid, you have no feature that allows you to cast those spells with any focus. Classes that get the use of a focus only get the use of a particular kind of focus for spells for that class. Spells that are not gained through a class don't count as class spells for any class. Magic Initiate (druid) spells are feat spells, not class spells. They qualify for nothing that requires a spell to be of a specific class.
Misrepresenting the problem might indicate you don't have a great grasp of it.
Neither does a warlocks invocations. But I would posit its absurd to make it a non warlock spell;. Consider pointless insulting banter in response to yours inserted here.
Warlock Invocations are a Warlock class feature and so would hit this part of the Warlock Spellcasting Feature:
If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.
Now how that works with Lessons of the First Ones to take Magic Initiate... needs more clarification but I believe it is often accepted that spells not gained by class features (so from background/origin/feat) are not considered class spells. So taking magic initiate druid to get shillelagh would mean the spell could not benefit from a druidic focus, it is not a druid class spell at that point.
Technically it does say, Carved, Painted or Decorated with a Ribbon but the latter two are really not hard to achieve on any quarterstaff. Now do staffs that can be used as a quarterstaff qualify, that is a point that'd need clarification.
Technically it does say, Carved, Painted or Decorated with a Ribbon but the latter two are really not hard to achieve on any quarterstaff. Now do staffs that can be used as a quarterstaff qualify, that is a point that'd need clarification.
One question about the last sentence, just trying to make sure I understand. Are you referring to this?
Staffs Items in the Staff category vary widely in appearance: some are of nearly equal diameter throughout and smooth, others are gnarled and twisted, some are made of wood, and others are composed of polished metal or crystal. A staff weighs between 2 and 7 pounds and serves well as a walking stick or cane.
Unless its description notes otherwise, a staff can be used as a nonmagical Quarterstaff and an Arcane Focus.
Previously a club or quarterstaff were material components that were not consumed. They did not have costs associated with them in the spell description but they are defined pieces of equipment with costs (minimum 1 sp). So are they costly material components? If so, you can't use a Druidic Focus to cast the spell.
Now, there are no costly weapons included as material components. A druidic focus can now be used without question. You still need a quarterstaff or club to be affected by the spell. I think it's a change for clarity.
A druidic focus staff can be used as a quarterstaff (and could in 2014, though you needed the DMG to tell you that). And it costs at least 1sp (besides, the whole cost thing was to indicate that the quarterstaff or whatever couldn't just be pulled out of a component pouch).
In 2014, any caster could hold all the material components (weapon + mistletoe) in a single hand, and also use that hand for somatic components. A druid could use their wooden staff focus as a quarterstaff and skip the mistletoe (which didn't make a difference in number of hands, but I guess is one less thing for them to worry about).
Now, in 2024, since the weapon isn't a component, but is still called out as needing to be in hand for the spellcasting, a strict reading means it has to be a different hand from the mistletoe. So a Druid (or a Ranger with the right choices) can still use a wooden staff focus as a quarterstaff and spell focus in one hand (but only for an effective quarterstaff shillelagh, not a club --- so Topple but no Slow).
Alternatively, a DM could rule that "A Club or Quarterstaff you are holding" means that the weapon is still a component, just not called out in the list (for simplicity), and could still share a hand with the mistletoe.
Technically it does say, Carved, Painted or Decorated with a Ribbon but the latter two are really not hard to achieve on any quarterstaff. Now do staffs that can be used as a quarterstaff qualify, that is a point that'd need clarification.
One question about the last sentence, just trying to make sure I understand. Are you referring to this?
Staffs Items in the Staff category vary widely in appearance: some are of nearly equal diameter throughout and smooth, others are gnarled and twisted, some are made of wood, and others are composed of polished metal or crystal. A staff weighs between 2 and 7 pounds and serves well as a walking stick or cane.
Unless its description notes otherwise, a staff can be used as a nonmagical Quarterstaff and an Arcane Focus.
Yes, Druids can only use "wooden staffs" which says "also a Quarterstaff", presumably this really means a Quarterstaff still being something that is wooden, since not all magical staves are made of wood. Staff of Defence (which Druid can't attune too) is made of glass, for example.
Alternatively, a DM could rule that "A Club or Quarterstaff you are holding" means that the weapon is still a component, just not called out in the list (for simplicity), and could still share a hand with the mistletoe.
DM can rule how they want indeed, but spell component is seperate from, and precedes spell effects, spell can be cast and it's effect occuring only if you first provided spell components. To cast Shillelagh you must first hold a Mistletoe, a Component Pouch or Spellcasting Focus applicable before a Club or Quarterstaff you are holding is imbued with nature’s power.
Technically it does say, Carved, Painted or Decorated with a Ribbon but the latter two are really not hard to achieve on any quarterstaff. Now do staffs that can be used as a quarterstaff qualify, that is a point that'd need clarification.
One question about the last sentence, just trying to make sure I understand. Are you referring to this?
Staffs Items in the Staff category vary widely in appearance: some are of nearly equal diameter throughout and smooth, others are gnarled and twisted, some are made of wood, and others are composed of polished metal or crystal. A staff weighs between 2 and 7 pounds and serves well as a walking stick or cane.
Unless its description notes otherwise, a staff can be used as a nonmagical Quarterstaff and an Arcane Focus.
Yes, Druids can only use "wooden staffs" which says "also a Quarterstaff", presumably this really means a Quarterstaff still being something that is wooden, since not all magical staves are made of wood. Staff of Defence (which Druid can't attune too) is made of glass, for example.
Previously a club or quarterstaff were material components that were not consumed. They did not have costs associated with them in the spell description but they are defined pieces of equipment with costs (minimum 1 sp). So are they costly material components? If so, you can't use a Druidic Focus to cast the spell.
Now, there are no costly weapons included as material components. A druidic focus can now be used without question. You still need a quarterstaff or club to be affected by the spell. I think it's a change for clarity.
A druidic focus staff can be used as a quarterstaff (and could in 2014, though you needed the DMG to tell you that). And it costs at least 1sp (besides, the whole cost thing was to indicate that the quarterstaff or whatever couldn't just be pulled out of a component pouch).
In 2014, any caster could hold all the material components (weapon + mistletoe) in a single hand, and also use that hand for somatic components. A druid could use their wooden staff focus as a quarterstaff and skip the mistletoe (which didn't make a difference in number of hands, but I guess is one less thing for them to worry about).
Now, in 2024, since the weapon isn't a component, but is still called out as needing to be in hand for the spellcasting, a strict reading means it has to be a different hand from the mistletoe. So a Druid (or a Ranger with the right choices) can still use a wooden staff focus as a quarterstaff and spell focus in one hand (but only for an effective quarterstaff shillelagh, not a club --- so Topple but no Slow).
Alternatively, a DM could rule that "A Club or Quarterstaff you are holding" means that the weapon is still a component, just not called out in the list (for simplicity), and could still share a hand with the mistletoe.
Okay. I was thinking that the focus was being used as a replacement for having all of the components, including the quarterstaff, on hand. How is the situation different now? Use the staff as a spell casting focus to replace the mistletoe, same in 2024.
For a club, can you cast the spell, touch the stowed club and draw it during the attack action, without letting go?
Okay. I was thinking that the focus was being used as a replacement for having all of the components, including the quarterstaff, on hand. How is the situation different now? Use the staff as a spell casting focus to replace the mistletoe, same in 2024.
That hasn't changed. A druid with a druid's staff (or the right kind of Ranger with a druid's staff) can still cast the spell, without mistletoe, while wielding a shield.
What has changed is that anyone else should have a club/quarterstaff in one hand and the mistletoe in the other, leaving no free hand for a shield. They could then spend their entire action equiping a shield, thus spending an entire turn "charging up."
For a club, can you cast the spell, touch the stowed club and draw it during the attack action, without letting go?
I wouldn't fault your DM for saying that you have to be fully holding the club (or quaterstaff) to use it in the casting, and that would still "take up" a hand... You need a free hand to wield a weapon, and you need a free hand for components or a spell focus; nothing in the spell actually says you need a fully free hand for the weapon in the spell's casting --- but it's a pretty obvious common sense rule so I think this scenario technically violates RAW.
But I still think it would be reasonable for a DM to rule that either a) the weapon is an implicit component, thus can share the hand with the explicit component or b) the weapon isn't a real component at all, thus doesn't require a free hand for the casting, just a touch, like in your question.
While i recently read post hinting at PC attaching Mistletoe to a Club's handle, that would have to first be cleared by DM as starting to allow such double holding may open other can of worms.
Oh that is a big deal question. According to the rules, a magic item staff is an arcane focus, but not a druidic focus. But a +2 quarterstaff is a weapon anyway, so I think that is different from a magic staff. But as far as RAW goes, a quarterstaff is not a wooden staff. As someone said in another post, the rules consider all staffs quarterstaffs but not all quarterstaffs are staffs (or wooden staffs, for that matter).
I think RAW has some problems when it comes to this stuff. For example, the druidic focus includes wooden staff, but the starting equipment for a druid says you get a quarterstaff as your focus (which a quarterstaff isn't technically a drudic focus).
So I can't really give you advice other than a reasonable DM would probably allow you to use a magical quarterstaff as a focus, even if it isn't strictly one RAW.
I was just thinking that under the 2024 description of "Druidic Focus" it lists "Wooden Staff" and says "(also a Quarterstaff)" . Doesn't that mean that any staff that is made of wood counts as a Druidic Focus --> Spellcasting Focus? IT definitely means that all wooden staffs are also quarterstaffs, but what about the other way around? I think it would be weird to classify a wooden quarterstaff as NOT a "Wooden Staff" .
It's really weird.
My assumption on that is that they wrote it as a bit of rules lawyer CYA. They didn't write it becase a wooden quarterstaff might not be considered a wooden staff. They wrote it because it is conceivable that a quarterstaff might be made out of something other than wood (e.g. magical ice, magical stone, special-but-non-magical dwarven metal).
It seems to me that you need to hold the weapon both before and during the spellcasting, not just touch it:
"A Club or Quarterstaff you are holding is imbued with nature’s power."
Holding and wielding are different, but still a fair point. I think it would be a valid interpretation that you can hold onto something while it is stowed. Still, I didn't check the wording of the spell. I can't believe this was an intended change, but it should have wording like True Strike.
What has changed is that anyone else should have a club/quarterstaff in one hand and the mistletoe in the other, leaving no free hand for a shield. They could then spend their entire action equiping a shield, thus spending an entire turn "charging up."
You know, I only now realized quarterstaves are one handed weapons. I was still thinking of them as 2-handed double weapons and was looking at your response thinking "what do shields have to do with two-handed weapons?" I understand Jeremy Crawford's Shillelagh Polearm Ruling now because he thinks of them as a big sticks with a predefined striking end. It doesn't make sense, but I understand his thinking. He's thinking of a stat block and not what a quarterstaff is and how it's used.
While i recently read post hinting at PC attaching Mistletoe to a Club's handle, that would have to first be cleared by DM as starting to allow such double holding may open other can of worms.
Is it a new can of worms if you were using your hand to hold the same objects in 2023? Does a spell, that targets an object you are holding with N spell components in addition to the target of the spell allow you to use one free hand to hold and/or manipulate N+1 objects? Or did you always need two hands and it wasn't previously obvious?
IMHO 2023 double holding would be similar can of worms to but when it comes to Shillelagh it was drastically revised in terms of material components and spell effects though.
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell’s material components—or to hold a spellcasting focus—but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Yes I believe a Druid holding a staff and shield can use the staff as both its (s) somatic and (M) component with the same hand
IMHO 2023 double holding would be similar can of worms to but when it comes to Shillelagh it was drastically revised in terms of material components and spell effects though.
I wouldn't call adding cantrip scaling and the option for Force damage a drastic revision, nor would I call the dropping the weapon as a material component. I do think it may have had some unintended consequences that might best be solved by removing the somatic and material components. A staff and a sprig of mistletoe are both potential druidic focuses. It seems silly to require either as a material component. Additionally any spell that expects you to have your hands occupied should accommodate that in the spell design - most easily by not requiring your hands as part of the spell casting. The three potential solutions would be:
Require the object(s) in hand as material components (2014 Shillelagh)
Do not have a material or somatic component (Sword Burst)
Allow the object(s) in hand to act as a spell focus for the caster while casting the spell.
None of these are RAW for 2024 Shillelagh, but may be options for workarounds at your home table.
Wth is going on here
Some folk are arguing that you can't cast a Druid spell even if you have it prepared and have the material components, because you're not a Druid.
Some folk are arguing that you can't use a magical staff as a material component because that's only for Wizards.
Some folk are correctly arguing that you can't take a random quarterstaff and cast spells with it, but you CAN cast spells on it.
Hopefully nobody is saying you can't use the staff focus to fight with.
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A little late to the conversation, but I would say that a strict reading of the RAW is difficult.
Previously a club or quarterstaff were material components that were not consumed. They did not have costs associated with them in the spell description but they are defined pieces of equipment with costs (minimum 1 sp). So are they costly material components? If so, you can't use a Druidic Focus to cast the spell.
Now, there are no costly weapons included as material components. A druidic focus can now be used without question. You still need a quarterstaff or club to be affected by the spell. I think it's a change for clarity.
How to add Tooltips.
Warlock Invocations are a Warlock class feature and so would hit this part of the Warlock Spellcasting Feature:
Now how that works with Lessons of the First Ones to take Magic Initiate... needs more clarification but I believe it is often accepted that spells not gained by class features (so from background/origin/feat) are not considered class spells. So taking magic initiate druid to get shillelagh would mean the spell could not benefit from a druidic focus, it is not a druid class spell at that point.
All of this is correct except the part on quarterstaff, quarterstaff is explicitly included as counting as a staff under druidic focus: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/free-rules/equipment#DruidicFocusVaries
Technically it does say, Carved, Painted or Decorated with a Ribbon but the latter two are really not hard to achieve on any quarterstaff. Now do staffs that can be used as a quarterstaff qualify, that is a point that'd need clarification.
One question about the last sentence, just trying to make sure I understand. Are you referring to this?
A druidic focus staff can be used as a quarterstaff (and could in 2014, though you needed the DMG to tell you that). And it costs at least 1sp (besides, the whole cost thing was to indicate that the quarterstaff or whatever couldn't just be pulled out of a component pouch).
In 2014, any caster could hold all the material components (weapon + mistletoe) in a single hand, and also use that hand for somatic components. A druid could use their wooden staff focus as a quarterstaff and skip the mistletoe (which didn't make a difference in number of hands, but I guess is one less thing for them to worry about).
Now, in 2024, since the weapon isn't a component, but is still called out as needing to be in hand for the spellcasting, a strict reading means it has to be a different hand from the mistletoe. So a Druid (or a Ranger with the right choices) can still use a wooden staff focus as a quarterstaff and spell focus in one hand (but only for an effective quarterstaff shillelagh, not a club --- so Topple but no Slow).
Alternatively, a DM could rule that "A Club or Quarterstaff you are holding" means that the weapon is still a component, just not called out in the list (for simplicity), and could still share a hand with the mistletoe.
Yes, Druids can only use "wooden staffs" which says "also a Quarterstaff", presumably this really means a Quarterstaff still being something that is wooden, since not all magical staves are made of wood. Staff of Defence (which Druid can't attune too) is made of glass, for example.
DM can rule how they want indeed, but spell component is seperate from, and precedes spell effects, spell can be cast and it's effect occuring only if you first provided spell components. To cast Shillelagh you must first hold a Mistletoe, a Component Pouch or Spellcasting Focus applicable before a Club or Quarterstaff you are holding is imbued with nature’s power.
Oh, ok ok, thanks for answering me!
What @Plaguescarred said here is true.
I imagine —though maybe it's just me— that many Druids will choose to imbue a Quarterstaff if it's also their Spellcasting Focus.
Okay. I was thinking that the focus was being used as a replacement for having all of the components, including the quarterstaff, on hand. How is the situation different now? Use the staff as a spell casting focus to replace the mistletoe, same in 2024.
For a club, can you cast the spell, touch the stowed club and draw it during the attack action, without letting go?
How to add Tooltips.
That hasn't changed. A druid with a druid's staff (or the right kind of Ranger with a druid's staff) can still cast the spell, without mistletoe, while wielding a shield.
What has changed is that anyone else should have a club/quarterstaff in one hand and the mistletoe in the other, leaving no free hand for a shield. They could then spend their entire action equiping a shield, thus spending an entire turn "charging up."
I wouldn't fault your DM for saying that you have to be fully holding the club (or quaterstaff) to use it in the casting, and that would still "take up" a hand... You need a free hand to wield a weapon, and you need a free hand for components or a spell focus; nothing in the spell actually says you need a fully free hand for the weapon in the spell's casting --- but it's a pretty obvious common sense rule so I think this scenario technically violates RAW.
But I still think it would be reasonable for a DM to rule that either a) the weapon is an implicit component, thus can share the hand with the explicit component or b) the weapon isn't a real component at all, thus doesn't require a free hand for the casting, just a touch, like in your question.
It seems to me that you need to hold the weapon both before and during the spellcasting, not just touch it:
"A Club or Quarterstaff you are holding is imbued with nature’s power."
Holding to me makes a hand no longer free.
While i recently read post hinting at PC attaching Mistletoe to a Club's handle, that would have to first be cleared by DM as starting to allow such double holding may open other can of worms.
My assumption on that is that they wrote it as a bit of rules lawyer CYA. They didn't write it becase a wooden quarterstaff might not be considered a wooden staff. They wrote it because it is conceivable that a quarterstaff might be made out of something other than wood (e.g. magical ice, magical stone, special-but-non-magical dwarven metal).
Holding and wielding are different, but still a fair point. I think it would be a valid interpretation that you can hold onto something while it is stowed. Still, I didn't check the wording of the spell. I can't believe this was an intended change, but it should have wording like True Strike.
You know, I only now realized quarterstaves are one handed weapons. I was still thinking of them as 2-handed double weapons and was looking at your response thinking "what do shields have to do with two-handed weapons?" I understand Jeremy Crawford's Shillelagh Polearm Ruling now because he thinks of them as a big sticks with a predefined striking end. It doesn't make sense, but I understand his thinking. He's thinking of a stat block and not what a quarterstaff is and how it's used.
Is it a new can of worms if you were using your hand to hold the same objects in 2023? Does a spell, that targets an object you are holding with N spell components in addition to the target of the spell allow you to use one free hand to hold and/or manipulate N+1 objects? Or did you always need two hands and it wasn't previously obvious?
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IMHO 2023 double holding would be similar can of worms to but when it comes to Shillelagh it was drastically revised in terms of material components and spell effects though.
Unless your PC is a Thri-kreen...
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
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"real life is a super high CR."
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"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
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Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell’s material components—or to hold a spellcasting focus—but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Yes I believe a Druid holding a staff and shield can use the staff as both its (s) somatic and (M) component with the same hand
I wouldn't call adding cantrip scaling and the option for Force damage a drastic revision, nor would I call the dropping the weapon as a material component. I do think it may have had some unintended consequences that might best be solved by removing the somatic and material components. A staff and a sprig of mistletoe are both potential druidic focuses. It seems silly to require either as a material component. Additionally any spell that expects you to have your hands occupied should accommodate that in the spell design - most easily by not requiring your hands as part of the spell casting. The three potential solutions would be:
None of these are RAW for 2024 Shillelagh, but may be options for workarounds at your home table.
How to add Tooltips.