New take on this - You are using the spell slot, but not expending it meaning you still have the spell slot available after casting False Life using it at the available level.
I don't see how that is not what the rules say. I cast it using a spell slot, but per the text of Fiendish Vigor I do not expend the spell slot and thus retain it for later use. Nowhere in the text does it state that I am not casting using a spell slot nor that I can't use the slots available thus the standard rules for spell casting apply. Arguably, I would need the spell used in one of my prepared spell slots.
Fiendish Vigor
Prerequisite: Level 2+ Warlock
You can cast False Life on yourself without expending a spell slot. When you cast the spell with this feature, you don’t roll the die for the Temporary Hit Points; you automatically get the highest number on the die.
Spell Slots
Spellcasting is taxing, so a spellcaster can cast only a limited number of level 1+ spells before resting. Spell slots are the main way a spellcaster’s magical potential is represented. Each spellcasting class gives its members a limited number of spell slots of certain spell levels. For example, a level 3 Wizard has four level 1 spell slots and two level 2 slots.
When you cast a spell, you expend a slot of that spell’s level or higher, effectively “filling” a slot with the spell. Imagine a spell slot is a groove of a certain size—small for a level 1 slot and larger for a higher-level spell. A level 1 spell fits into a slot of any size, but a level 2 spell fits only into a slot that’s at least level 2. So when a level 3 Wizard casts Magic Missile, a level 1 spell, that Wizard spends one of four level 1 slots and has three remaining.
Finishing a Long Rest restores any expended spell slots.
I don't see how that is not what the rules say. I cast it using a spell slot, but per the text of Fiendish Vigor I do not expend the spell slot and thus retain it for later use.
"without expending a spell slot" is more than just fluff text. You're choosing to ignore it. The invocation doesn't give you False Life as a prepared spell or give you any other way to cast it. You're literally choosing to ignore half the rules attached to the invocation just as an excuse to make it stronger.
Edit: Do you really not get that "expending" a spell slot is the same as "using" a spell slot? The rules text consistently uses "expend" for this purpose. You can't both use and not use it at the same time.
@Athanar90 You are correct in your edit's assumption. I am not convinced based on the text that "using" and "expending" are the same. I'm reading it such that you are essentially going through a normal spell casting process, but the Fiendish Vigor text essentially tells you to not expend during the order of operations in the spell text.
I am definitely open to interpreting it differently, but am not convinced by the current arguments in this thread yet.
Okay. In that case, let's go over this one more time. (Note: I've removed links that would be embedded in the copied sections of text below, but included links to the relevant sections.
The ability in question (link goes to the Warlock page, there's no link directly to invocations):
Fiendish Vigor
Prerequisite: Level 2+ Warlock
You can cast False Life on yourself without expending a spell slot. When you cast the spell with this feature, you don’t roll the die for the Temporary Hit Points; you automatically get the highest number on the die.
Note that it mentions casting and "without expending a spell slot", which means we use the rules on Spellcasting that would apply in this case; specifically, Casting without Slots. Additionally, because a spell slot isn't expended, it specifically can't use the Using a Higher Level Spell Slot rules, which is where the upcasting would be applied. But we'll go further into why.
Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell takes on the higher level for that casting. For instance, if a Wizard casts Magic Missile using a level 2 slot, that Magic Missile is level 2. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.
Some spells, such as Magic Missile and Cure Wounds, have more powerful effects when cast at a higher level, as detailed in a spell’s description.
This line specifies that a spell slot MUST be used (or expended, in other words) in order to activate this rule at all. (Specific abilities can override this, such as monsters that cast spells as a higher level than standard; they're specific exceptions to the rule, meaning specific vs general kicks in.)
Ultimately, it comes down to this: The only way to argue that Fiendish Vigor upcasts based on Warlock level is to blatantly ignore the rules. Nothing in the Warlock spellcasting states that all of your spells you cast are of the spell slot level; the only spells affected by the spell slot level are the spells cast using those spell slots. If you want to continue, find the specific rule that shows that you use those spell slots for spells that are cast without expending a spell slot. Nothing else matters.
Alright Athanar90. Now I am convinced based on the below on Rituals from the Rules Glossary of the 2024 PHB. All other text is too vague and to be honest does not state anywhere that expending a spell slot is fundamental to using it which lead me to consider it more close to order of operations than a direct logic.
Ritual
If you have a spell prepared that has the Ritual tag, you can cast that spell as a Ritual. The Ritual version of a spell takes 10 minutes longer to cast than normal. It also doesn’t expend a spell slot, which means the ritual version of a spell can’t be cast at a higher level.See alsochapter 7.
To play devil's advocate to show why the discrepancy is present let's consider going to a gas station to use a credit card that has $50 on it and buying $50 of gas. I put the credit card in thus using it, pump the gas, but don't "expend" the $50. The $50 is still left on the credit card. This is a similar-ish scenario that I had in mind. More consistent verbiage would be beneficial and prevent this deviation in thought from the intended.
I thought Warlocks Eldritch Invocations can be cast every turn/round/segment. (Still unclear of the differences)
If you do Pact of Chain and your "familiar is killed every time, you can keep getting a new familiar.
That logic means you can cast Fiendish Vigor every time. As you get max points, why do you need to upcast it? If you are literally in a place that you are losing a large number of HPs, that should give you a different dilemma rather then upcasting.
Some Invocations allow casting a spell at will. Some don't. This one does.
The reason you'd want to upcast it is that it would give you more temporary HP if cast at higher levels. But the invocation doesn't give you the ability to upcast it.
I think the key here is that the Invocation says: "When you cast the spell with this feature, you don’t roll the die for the Temporary Hit Points; you automatically get the highest number on the die."
If WoTC didn't want the Warlock to be able to cast the spell according to the spell level that they cast Warlock spells at their level, then the wording would have been substantially different. They could have said: "When you cast the spell with this feature, you get 12 Temporary Hit Points." or even more simply, not referred to the False Life spell at all and simply said that you spend an action to get 12 Temporary Hit Points. The fact that they say that you get the highest number on the die may indicate that the RAI was that it would be the 12 hit points from the die roll + the 5 Hit Points per spell level as if you were casting the spell as a Sorcerer or Wizard using the highest level spell slot they have available.
I think we can be very confident that if the RAI was that they cast the spell at a higher level than the base level, they would've explicitly said that, because that is how the rules already work — spells cast without a spell slot are cast at their lowest possible level unless otherwise specified. The framework for it to work that way is already present in the rules, and they didn't use it, so that's not how it works. It works like every other spell you cast without a spell slot.
I think the key here is that the Invocation says: "When you cast the spell with this feature, you don’t roll the die for the Temporary Hit Points; you automatically get the highest number on the die."
If WoTC didn't want the Warlock to be able to cast the spell according to the spell level that they cast Warlock spells at their level, then the wording would have been substantially different. They could have said: "When you cast the spell with this feature, you get 12 Temporary Hit Points." or even more simply, not referred to the False Life spell at all and simply said that you spend an action to get 12 Temporary Hit Points. The fact that they say that you get the highest number on the die may indicate that the RAI was that it would be the 12 hit points from the die roll + the 5 Hit Points per spell level as if you were casting the spell as a Sorcerer or Wizard using the highest level spell slot they have available.
I do not think that was the RAI. But yes they should have just said you can spend an action to get 12 temp hit points. It probably should scale a bit like an extra 3 hit points every few warlock levels capping at maybe 20 or 25. But it doesn't. Heck every at will spell invocation would be better if they did not reference the spell and just described the at will effect and usually with some scaling. like instead of change and alter self have a invocation at will where you can change your appearance and its illusory at warlock level 5 you weave in elements of shadow and give your illusion substance so it no longer fails to a physical inspection at level 10 its duration is 8 hours so you can keep it going while sleeping.
There's a few benefits to using spells as the base.
Spells already define exactly what they do. Casting time, duration, components, etc. are already listed. Additionally, they're explicitly magical to use, which has interactions with some other effects in the game. Therefore, if all of these are what the designers want from the ability, they can just call on the spell instead of rewriting the whole thing.
I think the key here is that the Invocation says: "When you cast the spell with this feature, you don’t roll the die for the Temporary Hit Points; you automatically get the highest number on the die."
If WoTC didn't want the Warlock to be able to cast the spell according to the spell level that they cast Warlock spells at their level, then the wording would have been substantially different. They could have said: "When you cast the spell with this feature, you get 12 Temporary Hit Points." or even more simply, not referred to the False Life spell at all and simply said that you spend an action to get 12 Temporary Hit Points. The fact that they say that you get the highest number on the die may indicate that the RAI was that it would be the 12 hit points from the die roll + the 5 Hit Points per spell level as if you were casting the spell as a Sorcerer or Wizard using the highest level spell slot they have available.
If they wanted warlocks to cast false life at their pact magic spell slot level, then they would've, you know, said that.
I think the key here is that the Invocation says: "When you cast the spell with this feature, you don’t roll the die for the Temporary Hit Points; you automatically get the highest number on the die."
If WoTC didn't want the Warlock to be able to cast the spell according to the spell level that they cast Warlock spells at their level, then the wording would have been substantially different. They could have said: "When you cast the spell with this feature, you get 12 Temporary Hit Points." or even more simply, not referred to the False Life spell at all and simply said that you spend an action to get 12 Temporary Hit Points. The fact that they say that you get the highest number on the die may indicate that the RAI was that it would be the 12 hit points from the die roll + the 5 Hit Points per spell level as if you were casting the spell as a Sorcerer or Wizard using the highest level spell slot they have available.
If they wanted warlocks to cast false life at their pact magic spell slot level, then they would've, you know, said that.
Exactly.
You always want to ask yourself: if the intent was for this rule to be interpreted in this particular way, is this the way they would actually have written it? If you can't honestly answer that question "yes", then that interpretation is probably not the intended one.
But, they did. They said you can cast the spell False Life. And when a Warlock casts a spell, they cast it at the level according to the table...
Look at One With Shadows. When a Warlock casts Invisibility using a spell slot, they cast it at a higher level which would mean that they could cast it on others. If your interpretation is true, and that a spell cast from an Invocation was only cast at the lowest possible level, then there'd be absolutely no need for the wording in the invocation that limited the spell to the Warlock. It'd be totally unnecessary and redundant. The same is true with Otherworldly Leap.If it were already the case that the spell from the invocation could only be cast at its lowest level, then there'd be no need for the wording in this invocation that limited the spell to the Warlock. Again, it would be totally unnecessary and redundant. Why would they put that wording in, if it were not necessary to change the way the spell cast via the invocation worked? This is clear indication of intent.
I think that the other two invocations are clear evidence that the RAI is for spells cast via the invocations are cast at the same spell level as the Warlock's slots indicate, as if they were casting it normally with a spell slot, unless otherwise restricted by the wording in the invocation. I.E. False Life is cast without a spell slot at the same level as if it were being cast using a spell slot, while Invisibility and Jump are being cast at their lowest level because of the wording that specifically limits the spells to the Warlock themselves.
But, they did. They said you can cast the spell False Life. And when a Warlock casts a spell, they cast it at the level according to the table...
There's no rule that says that "Whenever a warlock casts a spell, regardless of how they cast it, they cast it at the highest level of any spell slots they have."
The rules explicitly say "Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot." in the descriptions of False Life, Invisibility, and Jump
If you're not using a spell slot at all, as in the case when using the One With Shadows, Fiendish Vigor, Otherworldy Leap indications, (or Mysitc Arcanum, a magic item, or a spell scroll) you don't get to use the "Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot" options at all.
New take on this - You are using the spell slot, but not expending it meaning you still have the spell slot available after casting False Life using it at the available level.
That sounds like a perfectly fine house rule to use at your table if you want. It’s not what the actual rules say, though.
pronouns: he/she/they
I don't see how that is not what the rules say. I cast it using a spell slot, but per the text of Fiendish Vigor I do not expend the spell slot and thus retain it for later use. Nowhere in the text does it state that I am not casting using a spell slot nor that I can't use the slots available thus the standard rules for spell casting apply. Arguably, I would need the spell used in one of my prepared spell slots.
Fiendish Vigor
Prerequisite: Level 2+ Warlock
You can cast False Life on yourself without expending a spell slot. When you cast the spell with this feature, you don’t roll the die for the Temporary Hit Points; you automatically get the highest number on the die.
Spell Slots
Spellcasting is taxing, so a spellcaster can cast only a limited number of level 1+ spells before resting. Spell slots are the main way a spellcaster’s magical potential is represented. Each spellcasting class gives its members a limited number of spell slots of certain spell levels. For example, a level 3 Wizard has four level 1 spell slots and two level 2 slots.
When you cast a spell, you expend a slot of that spell’s level or higher, effectively “filling” a slot with the spell. Imagine a spell slot is a groove of a certain size—small for a level 1 slot and larger for a higher-level spell. A level 1 spell fits into a slot of any size, but a level 2 spell fits only into a slot that’s at least level 2. So when a level 3 Wizard casts Magic Missile, a level 1 spell, that Wizard spends one of four level 1 slots and has three remaining.
Finishing a Long Rest restores any expended spell slots.
"without expending a spell slot" is more than just fluff text. You're choosing to ignore it. The invocation doesn't give you False Life as a prepared spell or give you any other way to cast it. You're literally choosing to ignore half the rules attached to the invocation just as an excuse to make it stronger.
Edit: Do you really not get that "expending" a spell slot is the same as "using" a spell slot? The rules text consistently uses "expend" for this purpose. You can't both use and not use it at the same time.
@Athanar90 You are correct in your edit's assumption. I am not convinced based on the text that "using" and "expending" are the same. I'm reading it such that you are essentially going through a normal spell casting process, but the Fiendish Vigor text essentially tells you to not expend during the order of operations in the spell text.
I am definitely open to interpreting it differently, but am not convinced by the current arguments in this thread yet.
Okay. In that case, let's go over this one more time. (Note: I've removed links that would be embedded in the copied sections of text below, but included links to the relevant sections.
The ability in question (link goes to the Warlock page, there's no link directly to invocations):
Note that it mentions casting and "without expending a spell slot", which means we use the rules on Spellcasting that would apply in this case; specifically, Casting without Slots. Additionally, because a spell slot isn't expended, it specifically can't use the Using a Higher Level Spell Slot rules, which is where the upcasting would be applied. But we'll go further into why.
This line specifies that a spell slot MUST be used (or expended, in other words) in order to activate this rule at all. (Specific abilities can override this, such as monsters that cast spells as a higher level than standard; they're specific exceptions to the rule, meaning specific vs general kicks in.)
Ultimately, it comes down to this: The only way to argue that Fiendish Vigor upcasts based on Warlock level is to blatantly ignore the rules. Nothing in the Warlock spellcasting states that all of your spells you cast are of the spell slot level; the only spells affected by the spell slot level are the spells cast using those spell slots. If you want to continue, find the specific rule that shows that you use those spell slots for spells that are cast without expending a spell slot. Nothing else matters.
Alright Athanar90. Now I am convinced based on the below on Rituals from the Rules Glossary of the 2024 PHB. All other text is too vague and to be honest does not state anywhere that expending a spell slot is fundamental to using it which lead me to consider it more close to order of operations than a direct logic.
Ritual
If you have a spell prepared that has the Ritual tag, you can cast that spell as a Ritual. The Ritual version of a spell takes 10 minutes longer to cast than normal. It also doesn’t expend a spell slot, which means the ritual version of a spell can’t be cast at a higher level. See also chapter 7.
To play devil's advocate to show why the discrepancy is present let's consider going to a gas station to use a credit card that has $50 on it and buying $50 of gas. I put the credit card in thus using it, pump the gas, but don't "expend" the $50. The $50 is still left on the credit card. This is a similar-ish scenario that I had in mind. More consistent verbiage would be beneficial and prevent this deviation in thought from the intended.
Can a player use this infinity times to get 1000⁰00 health?
Temporary hit points from multiple sources don’t stack.
pronouns: he/she/they
I thought Warlocks Eldritch Invocations can be cast every turn/round/segment. (Still unclear of the differences)
If you do Pact of Chain and your "familiar is killed every time, you can keep getting a new familiar.
That logic means you can cast Fiendish Vigor every time. As you get max points, why do you need to upcast it? If you are literally in a place that you are losing a large number of HPs, that should give you a different dilemma rather then upcasting.
Some Invocations allow casting a spell at will. Some don't. This one does.
The reason you'd want to upcast it is that it would give you more temporary HP if cast at higher levels. But the invocation doesn't give you the ability to upcast it.
pronouns: he/she/they
The Warlock in this scenario can cast False Life very often. But keep in mind that every time they do so it costs them an action.
I think the key here is that the Invocation says: "When you cast the spell with this feature, you don’t roll the die for the Temporary Hit Points; you automatically get the highest number on the die."
If WoTC didn't want the Warlock to be able to cast the spell according to the spell level that they cast Warlock spells at their level, then the wording would have been substantially different. They could have said: "When you cast the spell with this feature, you get 12 Temporary Hit Points." or even more simply, not referred to the False Life spell at all and simply said that you spend an action to get 12 Temporary Hit Points. The fact that they say that you get the highest number on the die may indicate that the RAI was that it would be the 12 hit points from the die roll + the 5 Hit Points per spell level as if you were casting the spell as a Sorcerer or Wizard using the highest level spell slot they have available.
I think we can be very confident that if the RAI was that they cast the spell at a higher level than the base level, they would've explicitly said that, because that is how the rules already work — spells cast without a spell slot are cast at their lowest possible level unless otherwise specified. The framework for it to work that way is already present in the rules, and they didn't use it, so that's not how it works. It works like every other spell you cast without a spell slot.
pronouns: he/she/they
I do not think that was the RAI. But yes they should have just said you can spend an action to get 12 temp hit points. It probably should scale a bit like an extra 3 hit points every few warlock levels capping at maybe 20 or 25. But it doesn't. Heck every at will spell invocation would be better if they did not reference the spell and just described the at will effect and usually with some scaling. like instead of change and alter self have a invocation at will where you can change your appearance and its illusory at warlock level 5 you weave in elements of shadow and give your illusion substance so it no longer fails to a physical inspection at level 10 its duration is 8 hours so you can keep it going while sleeping.
There's a few benefits to using spells as the base.
Spells already define exactly what they do. Casting time, duration, components, etc. are already listed. Additionally, they're explicitly magical to use, which has interactions with some other effects in the game. Therefore, if all of these are what the designers want from the ability, they can just call on the spell instead of rewriting the whole thing.
If they wanted warlocks to cast false life at their pact magic spell slot level, then they would've, you know, said that.
Exactly.
You always want to ask yourself: if the intent was for this rule to be interpreted in this particular way, is this the way they would actually have written it? If you can't honestly answer that question "yes", then that interpretation is probably not the intended one.
pronouns: he/she/they
But, they did. They said you can cast the spell False Life. And when a Warlock casts a spell, they cast it at the level according to the table...
Look at One With Shadows. When a Warlock casts Invisibility using a spell slot, they cast it at a higher level which would mean that they could cast it on others. If your interpretation is true, and that a spell cast from an Invocation was only cast at the lowest possible level, then there'd be absolutely no need for the wording in the invocation that limited the spell to the Warlock. It'd be totally unnecessary and redundant. The same is true with Otherworldly Leap. If it were already the case that the spell from the invocation could only be cast at its lowest level, then there'd be no need for the wording in this invocation that limited the spell to the Warlock. Again, it would be totally unnecessary and redundant. Why would they put that wording in, if it were not necessary to change the way the spell cast via the invocation worked? This is clear indication of intent.
I think that the other two invocations are clear evidence that the RAI is for spells cast via the invocations are cast at the same spell level as the Warlock's slots indicate, as if they were casting it normally with a spell slot, unless otherwise restricted by the wording in the invocation. I.E. False Life is cast without a spell slot at the same level as if it were being cast using a spell slot, while Invisibility and Jump are being cast at their lowest level because of the wording that specifically limits the spells to the Warlock themselves.
There's no rule that says that "Whenever a warlock casts a spell, regardless of how they cast it, they cast it at the highest level of any spell slots they have."
The rules explicitly say "Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot." in the descriptions of False Life, Invisibility, and Jump
If you're not using a spell slot at all, as in the case when using the One With Shadows, Fiendish Vigor, Otherworldy Leap indications, (or Mysitc Arcanum, a magic item, or a spell scroll) you don't get to use the "Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot" options at all.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage