I have some questions about the Epic Boon feats, and more specifically how to acquire them, as it seems vague and ambiguous to me.
1, to get an epic Boon, can it only be from the level 19 Epic Boon ability?
2, this question only works if the answer to question 1 is no, if I have a multiclass character that is 11 levels in 1 class and 7 levels in another, and I level up, would I be able to take an epic Boon, since my total levels would be 19?
3, follow on from question 2, if I level up in the other class, now being level 20, would I be able to take another epic Boon feet?
4, follow on from question 3, if yes, can I take an epic Boon I've already taken?
Epic boon feats have a prerequisite of 19th level, but no other special rules. That is to say, as long as you meet the (19+) level prerequisite, you could take an epic boon feat or any other any time you are eligible for a feat. The epic boon abilities in classes essentially function as just a way to tell you that you now qualify for this new category of feats.
On the other hand, since they are just feats without any other special rules, this still applies:
By whatever means you acquire a feat, you can take it only once unless its description says otherwise.
There are currently 4 feats that specifically say you can take multiple times (Ability Score Improvement, Elemental Adept, Magic Initiate and Skilled) the others you can only take once
While getting 2 epic boons for level 20 might seem overly powerful you usually make compromises on your character to be a 16/4 or 12/8 multiclass.
The most powerful features tend to come at the higher levels and for this reason most optimal multiclass characters in 2014 rules had dips of 3 levels or less. For example a full spellcaster needs at least 17 levels to cast 9th level spells. I fighter gets a 2nd action surge at level 17 a paladins auro is able to cover most of the party once they get to level 18. Under 2024 rules there may be some builds where you gain more from having a 2nd epic boon compared to those high level features but I suspect more often that not that will not be the case.
This is a question to ask your DM. There has been enough debate on it that your specific DM could rule that you can't take epic boons unless a class feature first unlocks them. They could also go with the specific requirements. They could also rule an ability score increase doesn't allow you to get them. So I think it's such a toss up that you really are better off asking your DM before you commit to something you may learn they are going to interpret differently.
Category. A feat is a member of a category, which is noted in the feat. If you’re instructed to choose a feat from a specific category, such as the Origin category, that category must appear under the feat’s name. If you’re instructed to choose a feat and no category is specified, you can choose from any category.
and
Level 4: Ability Score Improvement
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. You gain this feature again at Cleric levels 8, 12, and 16.
and
Level 19: Epic Boon
You gain an Epic Boon feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. Boon of Combat Prowess is recommended.
and consider
Level 1: Fighting Style
You have honed your martial prowess and gain a Fighting Style feat of your choice (see chapter 5). Defense is recommended.
Whenever you gain a Fighter level, you can replace the feat you chose with a different Fighting Style feat.
And there are no special rules for the epic boon category, except that each has a prerequisite of 19th level. In fact, all feats are only gated by their own prerequisites, rather than the categories themselves. Even fighting style feats.
While I'm not saying you shouldn't ask your DM, your DM would be home brewing to not allow it.
. . .While I'm not saying you shouldn't ask your DM, your DM would be home brewing to not allow it.
Not necessarily. The prerequisite of '19th level' is unclear. The designers may have meant '19th level in a single class' given that you cannot get a General Feat until you are at least 4th level in a single class and you only gain additional feats at specific levels in individual classes.
Now I am not trying to say that your interpretation is invalid. What is written certainly could be read that way. I am simply saying that it is quite reasonable for a DM to interpret it differently and, barring clarification from designers, that would not be home brewing. They would simply be interpreting differently than you.
I mean, a DM could be confused on how levels work, that is true. But If a feature requires levels in a particular class, then it tells you that.
Just like a DM could make your cantrips scale on your class levels in the class that gave you the cantrip, or not at all for species traits.
Everyone I have ever met that doesn't get online has interpreted it as you must be level 19 in a single class to gain an epic boon.
People I've met online have been like 60%/40% split.
That's enough distinction that you don't want to base your entire character on getting 1-2 epic boons cause some guy on a forum said you could to find out your DM isn't going to allow it.
I had a similar incident when apparently people online let you take short rests right after another one and I told a player no.
Why do they interpret that? It is nothing from the actual text of the rules. Again, all of the features that matter (ASIs and Epic Boons) tell you that you can choose any feat for which you qualify, and the only qualification is level, not class level or unlocking in any way.
Maybe the people you've met that don't get online haven't, ah, taken any real time looking at the rules, and just made snap decisions based on a glance or quick read. I would imagine that's what most people do until someone challenges them on something. Like when they say "no, even though I'm cleric 4, fighter 1, my cantrips DO scale."
That thread was before the publication of the PHB -- the thread itself says so, so I must point out that it is out of date since it must have been based on UA material.
That thread was before the publication of the PHB -- the thread itself says so, so I must point out that it is out of date since it must have been based on UA material.
Yeah, I agree. In fact, I'm now reading some things wrong that I said there. I'll update some of my own replies.
Why do they interpret that? It is nothing from the actual text of the rules. Again, all of the features that matter (ASIs and Epic Boons) tell you that you can choose any feat for which you qualify, and the only qualification is level, not class level or unlocking in any way.
Maybe the people you've met that don't get online haven't, ah, taken any real time looking at the rules, and just made snap decisions based on a glance or quick read. I would imagine that's what most people do until someone challenges them on something. Like when they say "no, even though I'm cleric 4, fighter 1, my cantrips DO scale."
The simple reason is that at level 19 you get an epic boon. Which seems to classify epic boons as distinct from feats. In other words you have a class feature that grants you an epic boon, which is restricting the type of 'feat" you can get.
I think there is also the argument that multiclassing shouldn't be able to let you get two. Epic boons as those are class features and there shouldnt be a way to 'cheat' the system and gain an advantage over a straight class and get two superior class features.
This is still largely irrelevant because it's really going to depend on how your individual DM sees it and it's still a bad idea to assume you can get an epic boon to find out your DM is going to say that you can't take it.
Why do they interpret that? It is nothing from the actual text of the rules. . .
Let me ask you this:
I have a level 10+ Bard of the College of Valor who is multiclassed as a 7th level rogue. Can I add +4d6 of damage from Sneak Attack when I use Witchbolt?
To save you from looking up the precise wording of Sneak Attack it is 'to one creature you hit with an attack roll if you have Advantage on the roll and the attack uses a Finesse or a Ranged weapon.' That's the precise wording, and of course, there's the additional factor that you don't need Advantage if an ally is within 5' of the Target.
It is not specified that it is a Weapon Attack, just that it is an attack, and it doesn't specify that the attack is made with the weapon, just that the attack uses the weapon.
So, I must then be allowed to apply it to a Spell Attack when I use a shortsword as my focus, right? I mean, any other decision is crazy pants and has nothing to do with the text, right? If the designers didn't want me to do that, they obviously wouldn't have used that wording. They would have used words like Weapon Attack and 'the attack is made with a Finesse or a Ranged weapon'.
To be clear, I'm not saying your interpretation of the requirements for Epic Boon are wrong. I'm saying that other people recognize that designers can make errors and that certain bits of evidence (such as the fact that all classes have a level 19 Epic Boon feature) might be indicating that something has not been written as it was intended. That is the entire reason for the term RAI.
In those cases, you acting like they must be wrong and there cannot be an alternate interpretation is not helpful.
It certainly would be bad to assume your dm was going to follow the PHB only to find out that they home-brew some rule away, but that is not specific to this instance.
Epic boons are not distinct from feats, they ARE feats. They are a category of feats, just like General feats are. And if your DM requires a special ability to use such a feat, then I would wonder why they don't also require an ability that allows you to use a general feat.
Why do they interpret that? It is nothing from the actual text of the rules. . .
Let me ask you this:
...
In those cases, you acting like they must be wrong and there cannot be an alternate interpretation is not helpful.
Let me ask you this: Do you have a relevant example? This is a question about feats, not sneak attack. This is also a question that is pretty clearly explained by the rules that govern feats. A feat for which you qualify is a feat for which you meet the prerequisites for.
Acting like this has to be fair and balanced is a charade. Sometimes there is a right answer, like meeting the listed prerequisite is the only thing required for you to qualify for a feat. There's no substance to your claim of another valid interpretation unless there is something in the rules that gives weight to it. What puts requirements on qualifying for a feat other than the feat's prerequisites or a limitation by the feature giving you the choice of a feat?
There are only two types of features giving feats: those that require you to pick from a specific list (Fighting styles, origins) and those that allow you to pick any feat for which you qualify (ASIs, Epic boons).
It certainly would be bad to assume your dm was going to follow the PHB only to find out that they home-brew some rule away, but that is not specific to this instance.
Epic boons are not distinct from feats, they ARE feats. They are a category of feats, just like General feats are. And if your DM requires a special ability to use such a feat, then I would wonder why they don't also require an ability that allows you to use a general feat.
Like I said I have met enough people who take the position that you can only take an epic book at 19th level if your class grants you that feature that I definitely think it's a bad idea to tell someone they are going to be able to do this. To claim it is a house rule is I think an error as once again if it was meant for any class to take it would just give you a feat option at level 19, not restrict it to epic boons. It's silly to think a level 19 fighter just take a epic boon while w level 15 fighter + 4 in something else can take whatever they want and you can game the system to get 2 epic boons.
And regardless of which way I land in this debate I'm going to likely rule you can only get one epic boon regardless.
I have some questions about the Epic Boon feats, and more specifically how to acquire them, as it seems vague and ambiguous to me.
1, to get an epic Boon, can it only be from the level 19 Epic Boon ability?
2, this question only works if the answer to question 1 is no, if I have a multiclass character that is 11 levels in 1 class and 7 levels in another, and I level up, would I be able to take an epic Boon, since my total levels would be 19?
3, follow on from question 2, if I level up in the other class, now being level 20, would I be able to take another epic Boon feet?
4, follow on from question 3, if yes, can I take an epic Boon I've already taken?
Epic boon feats have a prerequisite of 19th level, but no other special rules. That is to say, as long as you meet the (19+) level prerequisite, you could take an epic boon feat or any other any time you are eligible for a feat. The epic boon abilities in classes essentially function as just a way to tell you that you now qualify for this new category of feats.
On the other hand, since they are just feats without any other special rules, this still applies:
So it depends from feat to feat.
To answer specifically
While getting 2 epic boons for level 20 might seem overly powerful you usually make compromises on your character to be a 16/4 or 12/8 multiclass.
The most powerful features tend to come at the higher levels and for this reason most optimal multiclass characters in 2014 rules had dips of 3 levels or less. For example a full spellcaster needs at least 17 levels to cast 9th level spells. I fighter gets a 2nd action surge at level 17 a paladins auro is able to cover most of the party once they get to level 18. Under 2024 rules there may be some builds where you gain more from having a 2nd epic boon compared to those high level features but I suspect more often that not that will not be the case.
Thanks so much for this, it's good to know that multiclassing does have access to these as well.
This is a question to ask your DM. There has been enough debate on it that your specific DM could rule that you can't take epic boons unless a class feature first unlocks them. They could also go with the specific requirements. They could also rule an ability score increase doesn't allow you to get them. So I think it's such a toss up that you really are better off asking your DM before you commit to something you may learn they are going to interpret differently.
and
and
and consider
And there are no special rules for the epic boon category, except that each has a prerequisite of 19th level. In fact, all feats are only gated by their own prerequisites, rather than the categories themselves. Even fighting style feats.
While I'm not saying you shouldn't ask your DM, your DM would be home brewing to not allow it.
Not necessarily. The prerequisite of '19th level' is unclear. The designers may have meant '19th level in a single class' given that you cannot get a General Feat until you are at least 4th level in a single class and you only gain additional feats at specific levels in individual classes.
Now I am not trying to say that your interpretation is invalid. What is written certainly could be read that way. I am simply saying that it is quite reasonable for a DM to interpret it differently and, barring clarification from designers, that would not be home brewing. They would simply be interpreting differently than you.
I mean, a DM could be confused on how levels work, that is true. But If a feature requires levels in a particular class, then it tells you that.
Just like a DM could make your cantrips scale on your class levels in the class that gave you the cantrip, or not at all for species traits.
Everyone I have ever met that doesn't get online has interpreted it as you must be level 19 in a single class to gain an epic boon.
People I've met online have been like 60%/40% split.
That's enough distinction that you don't want to base your entire character on getting 1-2 epic boons cause some guy on a forum said you could to find out your DM isn't going to allow it.
I had a similar incident when apparently people online let you take short rests right after another one and I told a player no.
Why do they interpret that? It is nothing from the actual text of the rules. Again, all of the features that matter (ASIs and Epic Boons) tell you that you can choose any feat for which you qualify, and the only qualification is level, not class level or unlocking in any way.
Maybe the people you've met that don't get online haven't, ah, taken any real time looking at the rules, and just made snap decisions based on a glance or quick read. I would imagine that's what most people do until someone challenges them on something. Like when they say "no, even though I'm cleric 4, fighter 1, my cantrips DO scale."
There's actually a similar thread to this with different takeaways: Can a Level 20 build take multiple Epic Boons - RAW 5e24
No feature tells you that you can take a general feat, right? The only way that you know that you can is by the prerequisite.
That thread was before the publication of the PHB -- the thread itself says so, so I must point out that it is out of date since it must have been based on UA material.
Yeah, I agree. In fact, I'm now reading some things wrong that I said there. I'll update some of my own replies.
Actually, I agree with your POV here.
The simple reason is that at level 19 you get an epic boon. Which seems to classify epic boons as distinct from feats. In other words you have a class feature that grants you an epic boon, which is restricting the type of 'feat" you can get.
I think there is also the argument that multiclassing shouldn't be able to let you get two. Epic boons as those are class features and there shouldnt be a way to 'cheat' the system and gain an advantage over a straight class and get two superior class features.
This is still largely irrelevant because it's really going to depend on how your individual DM sees it and it's still a bad idea to assume you can get an epic boon to find out your DM is going to say that you can't take it.
Let me ask you this:
I have a level 10+ Bard of the College of Valor who is multiclassed as a 7th level rogue. Can I add +4d6 of damage from Sneak Attack when I use Witchbolt?
To save you from looking up the precise wording of Sneak Attack it is 'to one creature you hit with an attack roll if you have Advantage on the roll and the attack uses a Finesse or a Ranged weapon.' That's the precise wording, and of course, there's the additional factor that you don't need Advantage if an ally is within 5' of the Target.
It is not specified that it is a Weapon Attack, just that it is an attack, and it doesn't specify that the attack is made with the weapon, just that the attack uses the weapon.
So, I must then be allowed to apply it to a Spell Attack when I use a shortsword as my focus, right? I mean, any other decision is crazy pants and has nothing to do with the text, right? If the designers didn't want me to do that, they obviously wouldn't have used that wording. They would have used words like Weapon Attack and 'the attack is made with a Finesse or a Ranged weapon'.
To be clear, I'm not saying your interpretation of the requirements for Epic Boon are wrong. I'm saying that other people recognize that designers can make errors and that certain bits of evidence (such as the fact that all classes have a level 19 Epic Boon feature) might be indicating that something has not been written as it was intended. That is the entire reason for the term RAI.
In those cases, you acting like they must be wrong and there cannot be an alternate interpretation is not helpful.
It certainly would be bad to assume your dm was going to follow the PHB only to find out that they home-brew some rule away, but that is not specific to this instance.
Epic boons are not distinct from feats, they ARE feats. They are a category of feats, just like General feats are. And if your DM requires a special ability to use such a feat, then I would wonder why they don't also require an ability that allows you to use a general feat.
Let me ask you this: Do you have a relevant example? This is a question about feats, not sneak attack. This is also a question that is pretty clearly explained by the rules that govern feats. A feat for which you qualify is a feat for which you meet the prerequisites for.
Acting like this has to be fair and balanced is a charade. Sometimes there is a right answer, like meeting the listed prerequisite is the only thing required for you to qualify for a feat. There's no substance to your claim of another valid interpretation unless there is something in the rules that gives weight to it. What puts requirements on qualifying for a feat other than the feat's prerequisites or a limitation by the feature giving you the choice of a feat?
There are only two types of features giving feats: those that require you to pick from a specific list (Fighting styles, origins) and those that allow you to pick any feat for which you qualify (ASIs, Epic boons).
Like I said I have met enough people who take the position that you can only take an epic book at 19th level if your class grants you that feature that I definitely think it's a bad idea to tell someone they are going to be able to do this. To claim it is a house rule is I think an error as once again if it was meant for any class to take it would just give you a feat option at level 19, not restrict it to epic boons. It's silly to think a level 19 fighter just take a epic boon while w level 15 fighter + 4 in something else can take whatever they want and you can game the system to get 2 epic boons.
And regardless of which way I land in this debate I'm going to likely rule you can only get one epic boon regardless.
The level 19 feature does just give you a feat. I posted the text above. You are free to choose any feat for which you qualify.