The level 19 feature does just give you a feat. I posted the text above. You are free to choose any feat for which you qualify.
Yeah I forgot about that. But why does it say you can take an epic boon or another feat if taking an epic boon was already going to be an option? Why not say you can take a feat?
Why does the ASI version tell you that you could take an ASI (Which is a feat) if that is already an option? Why does no feature give you the option to take a general feat?
Why does the ASI version tell you that you could take an ASI (Which is a feat) if that is already an option? Why does no feature give you the option to take a general feat?
I personally think someone was too lazy to change the words to feat.
But my real point is that it is ambiguous enough that when you sit down to play, you simply are not going to have any clue how the DM is going to rule. As I mentioned the flesh and blood people I've come across have all viewed boons as only available if you have 19 levels in a class and multiclassing would prohibit you from taking them unless the DM uses the optional rules for above level 20.
Why do they interpret that? It is nothing from the actual text of the rules. . .
Let me ask you this:
...
In those cases, you acting like they must be wrong and there cannot be an alternate interpretation is not helpful.
Let me ask you this: Do you have a relevant example? This is a question about feats, not sneak attack. This is also a question that is pretty clearly explained by the rules that govern feats. A feat for which you qualify is a feat for which you meet the prerequisites for.
Acting like this has to be fair and balanced is a charade. Sometimes there is a right answer, like meeting the listed prerequisite is the only thing required for you to qualify for a feat. There's no substance to your claim of another valid interpretation unless there is something in the rules that gives weight to it. What puts requirements on qualifying for a feat other than the feat's prerequisites or a limitation by the feature giving you the choice of a feat?
There are only two types of features giving feats: those that require you to pick from a specific list (Fighting styles, origins) and those that allow you to pick any feat for which you qualify (ASIs, Epic boons).
This is a relevant example. It is relevant because it illustrates that the position of 'this is the text' does not automatically make you correct.
I am not, in any way, making any claims about fairness or balance. Implying that I had is a strawman argument (intentionally or otherwise) that distracts from the fact that you want to use the argument 'this is the text', but don't want to admit that it leads to issues such as Sneak Attack with Witchbolt.
At the end of the day the designers made an error that provides uncertainty. The error may very well be that they should not have worded the 19th level feature that appears in every class like they did and that you are correct that they always intended for people to be able to take Epic Boon as soon as they reach Character Level 19+ instead of Class Level 19+.
You, however, are acting as though that that must be the error and that it couldn't possibly be that the designers intended for characters to reach 19th level in a single class to unlock an Epic Boon but that they made an error in expressing that.
I am acting as though the only way to understand the text is to use the text, yes. My position requires no error, only that the epic boon feature works analogously (almost word for word) to the ASI feature.
Again, just like the prerequisite thing came up before: if the requirement is to have the epic boon feature, then that could be the prerequisite, just like in the case of fighting styles. In fact, there are examples all over the place showing how the game works and how it is self consistent. It is just bad interpretation that leads to any other outcome.
I am acting as though the only way to understand the text is to use the text, yes. My position requires no error, only that the epic boon feature works analogously (almost word for word) to the ASI feature.
Your position requires the designers to have made an error in not making the level 19 class feature more explicit and eliminating questions.
You can argue that what they have written does not create questions, but since other people are questioning it, that argument is shaky.
No, it doesn’t. My position is that it is exactly explicit: you can take an epic boon feat (which is a category of feat) or any other for which you qualify. And the ASI also allows you to take any feat for which you qualify. And the only qualification for a feat is in its prerequisite, as the rules explicitly state. And that “level” means character level, unless specified, just like with other features that depend on character level, such as cantrips or proficiency.
I’ll repeat myself again: we know what a prerequisite looks like if you need a feature to unlock a feat. Look at fighting styles. If epic boons needed a feature to unlock them, then that would be in their prerequisite.
You might be right that a lot of people don’t understand. But that doesn’t make their view valid or correct, it just means they don’t understand.
. . .You might be right that a lot of people don’t understand. But that doesn’t make their view valid or correct, it just means they don’t understand.
I didn't say they don't understand it. I said they question it. Why do the designers need to spell out that you can now take an Epic Boon at that point? That implies that you couldn't take it earlier.
The fact that many people question it means the designers made an error somewhere. It may very well be that the error is that the designers should not have implied that you couldn't take an Epic Boon earlier. However, it could also be that the error is that they should have written the prerequisite differently.
Until there is a clarification, people will have to try and interpret where the error is. Unless you are one of the designers or are in contact with the designers (at which point, could you please ask them to clarify?), it is the height of hubris to assume your interpretation must be the correct one.
It’s just not that complicated. It really doesn’t take hubris, especially when the only thing that anyone has pointed out contrary to this interpretation is that people “question it” without any real specifics or problems with the interpretation.
That isn’t an argument. It’s being wrong. People question if the earth is flat; we know the answer.
No, it doesn’t. My position is that it is exactly explicit: you can take an epic boon feat (which is a category of feat) or any other for which you qualify. And the ASI also allows you to take any feat for which you qualify. And the only qualification for a feat is in its prerequisite, as the rules explicitly state. And that “level” means character level, unless specified, just like with other features that depend on character level, such as cantrips or proficiency.
I’ll repeat myself again: we know what a prerequisite looks like if you need a feature to unlock a feat. Look at fighting styles. If epic boons needed a feature to unlock them, then that would be in their prerequisite.
You might be right that a lot of people don’t understand. But that doesn’t make their view valid or correct, it just means they don’t understand.
Lets be honest, if the issue was as cut and dry as you claim, the OP never would have needed to ask the question in the first place. The fact is that including epic boons as a class feature creates the implication that they are only available once you reach level 19 in a specific class. Whether or not that is intended, is a completely different question.
I'm not really arguing that you are wrong, I'm saying that the opposing view is common enough that if someone is asking how something works, they should be presented with both viewpoints and told to talk to their DM about it, because it literally doesn't matter how anyone in this thread thinks the answer is if the DM ends up thinking its option C that neither of us have even considered.
Sure, if your DM has some opinion, it doesn’t matter what anyone here says. But that begs the question, if your DM’s opinion is the only one that matters, then why ask here? Again, that is a point that is true of EVERY discussion here. This forum section is about how to interpret rules and the right rulings when they exist and the best interpretations when multiple can. In this case, the feats are consistent with each other enough that there really is one clear best ruling.
Maybe it is confusing at first glance. But all you have to do is know where to look. As I said before, maybe a lot of people don’t do much reading for understanding so they don’t really know how to look at the pieces and come to the correct conclusion. But again, if one comes to some other conclusion then fine, but that won’t because of the actual construction of the feats section or the epic boon/ASI class features. It will be because of some notion, preconception, or misunderstanding.
To your point, the OP didn’t know, but maybe because they didn’t know where to look or what was important. But once you point out the prerequisites and the fact that the rules tell you that you can take a feat from any category unless the feature specifies a category, everything falls into place. To go further, remember that OP also asked about repeatability, which, again just shows that they needed a pointer on where to look. But once you know, that one is just as straightforward as the epic boons question.
It’s just not that complicated. It really doesn’t take hubris, especially when the only thing that anyone has pointed out contrary to this interpretation is that people “question it” without any real specifics or problems with the interpretation.
That isn’t an argument. It’s being wrong. People question if the earth is flat; we know the answer.
People absolutely give you specifics. I gave you specifics. You just chose to dismiss them.
. . .While I'm not saying you shouldn't ask your DM, your DM would be home brewing to not allow it.
Not necessarily. The prerequisite of '19th level' is unclear. The designers may have meant '19th level in a single class' given that you cannot get a General Feat until you are at least 4th level in a single class and you only gain additional feats at specific levels in individual classes.
Now I am not trying to say that your interpretation is invalid. What is written certainly could be read that way. I am simply saying that it is quite reasonable for a DM to interpret it differently and, barring clarification from designers, that would not be home brewing. They would simply be interpreting differently than you.
I'd disagree. The pre-requisite of "Level 19+" is completely clear and unambiguous by itself. Just read what it says. If the rules wanted to require level 19 in a specific class they could have said "Level 19+ in one class" or it could have listed a pre-requisite of "epic boon class feature".
In this case, the rules don't state any other pre-requisite than level 19+. Period. Guessing what the designers may or may not have intended and trying to interpret the rules to fit what someone thinks they should have said is just not how RAW (Rules As Written) works. In this case, the RAW is extremely clear ... Level 19+ is the stated pre-requisite for epic boon feats.
However, the rules also split epic boon feats into a separate category so perhaps the epic boon class feature allows access to epic boon feats? This again is NOT what the rules explicitly state in regards to feat categories.
"Category. A feat is a member of a category, which is noted in the feat. If you’re instructed to choose a feat from a specific category, such as the Origin category, that category must appear under the feat’s name. If you’re instructed to choose a feat and no category is specified, you can choose from any category."
All of the ASI class features state that you can take the Ability score increase feat or any other feat of your choice for which the character qualifies. "You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify."
Surprisingly perhaps, the rules for this are exceptionally clear. There really isn't anything to argue about or interpret in terms of what is written in the rules themselves in this case (unlike a lot of other topics). DMs are, of course, free to run it however they like and house rule however they wish for their own games but the rules themselves clearly allow an epic boon feat to be selected for any feats granted to a character of level 19+.
No, it doesn’t. My position is that it is exactly explicit: you can take an epic boon feat (which is a category of feat) or any other for which you qualify. And the ASI also allows you to take any feat for which you qualify. And the only qualification for a feat is in its prerequisite, as the rules explicitly state. And that “level” means character level, unless specified, just like with other features that depend on character level, such as cantrips or proficiency.
I’ll repeat myself again: we know what a prerequisite looks like if you need a feature to unlock a feat. Look at fighting styles. If epic boons needed a feature to unlock them, then that would be in their prerequisite.
You might be right that a lot of people don’t understand. But that doesn’t make their view valid or correct, it just means they don’t understand.
Lets be honest, if the issue was as cut and dry as you claim, the OP never would have needed to ask the question in the first place. The fact is that including epic boons as a class feature creates the implication that they are only available once you reach level 19 in a specific class. Whether or not that is intended, is a completely different question.
I'm not really arguing that you are wrong, I'm saying that the opposing view is common enough that if someone is asking how something works, they should be presented with both viewpoints and told to talk to their DM about it, because it literally doesn't matter how anyone in this thread thinks the answer is if the DM ends up thinking its option C that neither of us have even considered.
The only reason for folks to think that access to epic boon feats is only granted by the epic boon class feature is because the name is the similar. (Epic Boon class feature vs Epic Boon feat) Nothing anywhere else in the actual rules implies that access to epic boons is gated through the class feature AND the rules regarding feat categories explicitly allows access to any category of feats if a category (like origin for example) isn't specified.
All the Epic boon class feature is doing is drawing attention to the fact that a character that is level 19 in a specific class is eligible to choose from the epic boon feat category - nothing in the rules implies that this is the only way to access the category of feats AND if a person reads the rules on feat categories and the Level 19+ pre-requisite for these feats, it becomes clear that these feats are available to any character which gains a feat at level 19+.
The only reason to think otherwise is the words "Epic Boon" in the class feature name ... which means exactly nothing.
No, it doesn’t. My position is that it is exactly explicit: you can take an epic boon feat (which is a category of feat) or any other for which you qualify. And the ASI also allows you to take any feat for which you qualify. And the only qualification for a feat is in its prerequisite, as the rules explicitly state. And that “level” means character level, unless specified, just like with other features that depend on character level, such as cantrips or proficiency.
I’ll repeat myself again: we know what a prerequisite looks like if you need a feature to unlock a feat. Look at fighting styles. If epic boons needed a feature to unlock them, then that would be in their prerequisite.
You might be right that a lot of people don’t understand. But that doesn’t make their view valid or correct, it just means they don’t understand.
Lets be honest, if the issue was as cut and dry as you claim, the OP never would have needed to ask the question in the first place. The fact is that including epic boons as a class feature creates the implication that they are only available once you reach level 19 in a specific class. Whether or not that is intended, is a completely different question.
I'm not really arguing that you are wrong, I'm saying that the opposing view is common enough that if someone is asking how something works, they should be presented with both viewpoints and told to talk to their DM about it, because it literally doesn't matter how anyone in this thread thinks the answer is if the DM ends up thinking its option C that neither of us have even considered.
The only reason for folks to think that access to epic boon feats is only granted by the epic boon class feature is because the name is the similar. (Epic Boon class feature vs Epic Boon feat) Nothing anywhere else in the actual rules implies that access to epic boons is gated through the class feature AND the rules regarding feat categories explicitly allows access to any category of feats if a category (like origin for example) isn't specified.
All the Epic boon class feature is doing is drawing attention to the fact that a character that is level 19 in a specific class is eligible to choose from the epic boon feat category - nothing in the rules implies that this is the only way to access the category of feats AND if a person reads the rules on feat categories and the Level 19+ pre-requisite for these feats, it becomes clear that these feats are available to any character which gains a feat at level 19+.
The only reason to think otherwise is the words "Epic Boon" in the class feature name ... which means exactly nothing.
I would disagree. Namely because
Level 4: Ability Score Improvement
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. You gain this feature again at Fighter levels 6, 8, 12, 14, and 16.
Level 19: Epic Boon
You gain an Epic Boon feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. Boon of Combat Prowess is recommended.
If it was intended for you to be able to select an Epic Boon Feat (or the ability improvement feat) the Level 4 ability score improvement should read, Levels, 6,8,12,14,16 and 19. There shouldn't be another feature gained at level 19 that lets you select an Epic Boon.
Specifically it appears that with the Level four feature you can select the ability score improvement or another feat (Excluding boons) For the level 19 ability it appears you can select An epic boon or another feat (excluding the ability score improvement)
If this wasn't the case, there would be 0 reason to break the Level 4 feature and the Level 19 feature if they did the samething. They clearly are not supposed to grant you the same access, otherwise you wouldn't get a new feature at level 19, it would just be the Level 4 feature again.
[...] I am not, in any way, making any claims about fairness or balance. Implying that I had is a strawman argument (intentionally or otherwise) that distracts from the fact that you want to use the argument 'this is the text', but don't want to admit that it leads to issues such as Sneak Attack with Witchbolt. [...]
I read your reply here and I still don't understand how Sneak Attack could be confused as usable with Witch Bolt.
You're not attacking using your Bard's spellcasting focus, you're using it to meet the requirements for casting the spell. That precedes the spell's effects, which, in this case, include the beam of crackling energy and the moment you finally make the attack roll.
It’s just not that complicated. It really doesn’t take hubris, especially when the only thing that anyone has pointed out contrary to this interpretation is that people “question it” without any real specifics or problems with the interpretation.
That isn’t an argument. It’s being wrong. People question if the earth is flat; we know the answer.
People absolutely give you specifics. I gave you specifics. You just chose to dismiss them.
Yah? What specifics? What rule are you pointing at that says something different? So far it seems your argument can be restated as "people don't understand what 19th level is." I didn't dismiss that, I said the only reasonable interpretation: that 19th level means what it says, 19th level, not some hidden meaning. If you are going to claim stuff, use proof. That is the problem with this type of argument: it never has substance. It's a populist argument, not a rules argument.
No, it doesn’t. My position is that it is exactly explicit: you can take an epic boon feat (which is a category of feat) or any other for which you qualify. And the ASI also allows you to take any feat for which you qualify. And the only qualification for a feat is in its prerequisite, as the rules explicitly state. And that “level” means character level, unless specified, just like with other features that depend on character level, such as cantrips or proficiency.
I’ll repeat myself again: we know what a prerequisite looks like if you need a feature to unlock a feat. Look at fighting styles. If epic boons needed a feature to unlock them, then that would be in their prerequisite.
You might be right that a lot of people don’t understand. But that doesn’t make their view valid or correct, it just means they don’t understand.
Lets be honest, if the issue was as cut and dry as you claim, the OP never would have needed to ask the question in the first place. The fact is that including epic boons as a class feature creates the implication that they are only available once you reach level 19 in a specific class. Whether or not that is intended, is a completely different question.
I'm not really arguing that you are wrong, I'm saying that the opposing view is common enough that if someone is asking how something works, they should be presented with both viewpoints and told to talk to their DM about it, because it literally doesn't matter how anyone in this thread thinks the answer is if the DM ends up thinking its option C that neither of us have even considered.
The only reason for folks to think that access to epic boon feats is only granted by the epic boon class feature is because the name is the similar. (Epic Boon class feature vs Epic Boon feat) Nothing anywhere else in the actual rules implies that access to epic boons is gated through the class feature AND the rules regarding feat categories explicitly allows access to any category of feats if a category (like origin for example) isn't specified.
All the Epic boon class feature is doing is drawing attention to the fact that a character that is level 19 in a specific class is eligible to choose from the epic boon feat category - nothing in the rules implies that this is the only way to access the category of feats AND if a person reads the rules on feat categories and the Level 19+ pre-requisite for these feats, it becomes clear that these feats are available to any character which gains a feat at level 19+.
The only reason to think otherwise is the words "Epic Boon" in the class feature name ... which means exactly nothing.
I would disagree. Namely because
Level 4: Ability Score Improvement
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. You gain this feature again at Fighter levels 6, 8, 12, 14, and 16.
Level 19: Epic Boon
You gain an Epic Boon feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. Boon of Combat Prowess is recommended.
If it was intended for you to be able to select an Epic Boon Feat (or the ability improvement feat) the Level 4 ability score improvement should read, Levels, 6,8,12,14,16 and 19. There shouldn't be another feature gained at level 19 that lets you select an Epic Boon.
Specifically it appears that with the Level four feature you can select the ability score improvement or another feat (Excluding boons) For the level 19 ability it appears you can select An epic boon or another feat (excluding the ability score improvement)
If this wasn't the case, there would be 0 reason to break the Level 4 feature and the Level 19 feature if they did the samething. They clearly are not supposed to grant you the same access, otherwise you wouldn't get a new feature at level 19, it would just be the Level 4 feature again.
Again, what, other than the name says different? How do you know that the ASI feature grants access to some feats and not others? How do you know that the EB feature actually grants epic boon access? What text points to that? What about ASIs grants access to general feats? Is it nothing about the ability and only the feat prerequisite? Why are epic boons just listed as feats? Is a 20th level character that has an 18/2 split precluded from the beyond 20th level progression described by the rules?
There would be zero reason to think that the same text does something for one heading and something completely different for the other.
[...] I am not, in any way, making any claims about fairness or balance. Implying that I had is a strawman argument (intentionally or otherwise) that distracts from the fact that you want to use the argument 'this is the text', but don't want to admit that it leads to issues such as Sneak Attack with Witchbolt. [...]
I read your reply here and I still don't understand how Sneak Attack could be confused as usable with Witch Bolt.
You're not attacking using your Bard's spellcasting focus, you're using it to meet the requirements for casting the spell. That precedes the spell's effects, which, in this case, include the beam of crackling energy and the moment you finally make the attack roll.
There is no confusion.
Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack roll if . . . the attack uses a Finesse or a Ranged weapon.
Attacking with the weapon isn't a requirement, according to what is written. All that is required is that the attack uses a Finesse or Ranged weapon. In this case, you are making a Spell Attack using a Finesse weapon as a focus.
If the designers meant that the attack had to be made with the weapon, they would have said. "Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit when making a Weapon Attack with a Finesse or Ranged weapon. . .". RAW, It is clear, and anyone who doesn't allow it is 'home-brewing'.
Now, for clarity, I am not honestly advocating that this should be allowed. I am trying to demonstrate that focusing on one specific section of the text, ignoring other factors (such as possible intent), and insisting that not following that interpretation means people are 'home-brewing' is a flawed methodology.
Also, to be clear, I am not saying that I don't believe that you can take an Epic Boon at character level 19. I'm saying that acting as though the level 19 feature that every single class possesses couldn't possibly have any meaning is flawed. If people want to say, 'I don't read it that way,' that's fine. They just shouldn't be saying 'you're wrong' (unless they happen to be one of the designers or in direct contact with the designers).
No, it doesn’t. My position is that it is exactly explicit: you can take an epic boon feat (which is a category of feat) or any other for which you qualify. And the ASI also allows you to take any feat for which you qualify. And the only qualification for a feat is in its prerequisite, as the rules explicitly state. And that “level” means character level, unless specified, just like with other features that depend on character level, such as cantrips or proficiency.
I’ll repeat myself again: we know what a prerequisite looks like if you need a feature to unlock a feat. Look at fighting styles. If epic boons needed a feature to unlock them, then that would be in their prerequisite.
You might be right that a lot of people don’t understand. But that doesn’t make their view valid or correct, it just means they don’t understand.
Lets be honest, if the issue was as cut and dry as you claim, the OP never would have needed to ask the question in the first place. The fact is that including epic boons as a class feature creates the implication that they are only available once you reach level 19 in a specific class. Whether or not that is intended, is a completely different question.
I'm not really arguing that you are wrong, I'm saying that the opposing view is common enough that if someone is asking how something works, they should be presented with both viewpoints and told to talk to their DM about it, because it literally doesn't matter how anyone in this thread thinks the answer is if the DM ends up thinking its option C that neither of us have even considered.
The only reason for folks to think that access to epic boon feats is only granted by the epic boon class feature is because the name is the similar. (Epic Boon class feature vs Epic Boon feat) Nothing anywhere else in the actual rules implies that access to epic boons is gated through the class feature AND the rules regarding feat categories explicitly allows access to any category of feats if a category (like origin for example) isn't specified.
All the Epic boon class feature is doing is drawing attention to the fact that a character that is level 19 in a specific class is eligible to choose from the epic boon feat category - nothing in the rules implies that this is the only way to access the category of feats AND if a person reads the rules on feat categories and the Level 19+ pre-requisite for these feats, it becomes clear that these feats are available to any character which gains a feat at level 19+.
The only reason to think otherwise is the words "Epic Boon" in the class feature name ... which means exactly nothing.
I would disagree. Namely because
Level 4: Ability Score Improvement
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. You gain this feature again at Fighter levels 6, 8, 12, 14, and 16.
Level 19: Epic Boon
You gain an Epic Boon feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. Boon of Combat Prowess is recommended.
If it was intended for you to be able to select an Epic Boon Feat (or the ability improvement feat) the Level 4 ability score improvement should read, Levels, 6,8,12,14,16 and 19. There shouldn't be another feature gained at level 19 that lets you select an Epic Boon.
Specifically it appears that with the Level four feature you can select the ability score improvement or another feat (Excluding boons) For the level 19 ability it appears you can select An epic boon or another feat (excluding the ability score improvement)
If this wasn't the case, there would be 0 reason to break the Level 4 feature and the Level 19 feature if they did the samething. They clearly are not supposed to grant you the same access, otherwise you wouldn't get a new feature at level 19, it would just be the Level 4 feature again.
Again, what, other than the name says different? How do you know that the ASI feature grants access to some feats and not others? How do you know that the EB feature actually grants epic boon access? What text points to that? What about ASIs grants access to general feats? Is it nothing about the ability and only the feat prerequisite? Why are epic boons just listed as feats? Is a 20th level character that has an 18/2 split precluded from the beyond 20th level progression described by the rules?
There would be zero reason to think that the same text does something for one heading and something completely different for the other.
None of that really matters to my point. My point is that once you leave the online optimizer community you are more likely to find that your DM isn't going to allow you to take an epic boon from multiclassing for whatever reason. At the end of the day the reason doesn't matter. So this is really one of those times you want to get with your DM because they likely aren't going to agree with allowing it.
And yes that is true of most things, but I think it is even more so given how split the view is in this.
Yeah I forgot about that. But why does it say you can take an epic boon or another feat if taking an epic boon was already going to be an option? Why not say you can take a feat?
Why does the ASI version tell you that you could take an ASI (Which is a feat) if that is already an option? Why does no feature give you the option to take a general feat?
I personally think someone was too lazy to change the words to feat.
But my real point is that it is ambiguous enough that when you sit down to play, you simply are not going to have any clue how the DM is going to rule. As I mentioned the flesh and blood people I've come across have all viewed boons as only available if you have 19 levels in a class and multiclassing would prohibit you from taking them unless the DM uses the optional rules for above level 20.
This is a relevant example. It is relevant because it illustrates that the position of 'this is the text' does not automatically make you correct.
I am not, in any way, making any claims about fairness or balance. Implying that I had is a strawman argument (intentionally or otherwise) that distracts from the fact that you want to use the argument 'this is the text', but don't want to admit that it leads to issues such as Sneak Attack with Witchbolt.
At the end of the day the designers made an error that provides uncertainty. The error may very well be that they should not have worded the 19th level feature that appears in every class like they did and that you are correct that they always intended for people to be able to take Epic Boon as soon as they reach Character Level 19+ instead of Class Level 19+.
You, however, are acting as though that that must be the error and that it couldn't possibly be that the designers intended for characters to reach 19th level in a single class to unlock an Epic Boon but that they made an error in expressing that.
I am acting as though the only way to understand the text is to use the text, yes. My position requires no error, only that the epic boon feature works analogously (almost word for word) to the ASI feature.
Again, just like the prerequisite thing came up before: if the requirement is to have the epic boon feature, then that could be the prerequisite, just like in the case of fighting styles. In fact, there are examples all over the place showing how the game works and how it is self consistent. It is just bad interpretation that leads to any other outcome.
Your position requires the designers to have made an error in not making the level 19 class feature more explicit and eliminating questions.
You can argue that what they have written does not create questions, but since other people are questioning it, that argument is shaky.
No, it doesn’t. My position is that it is exactly explicit: you can take an epic boon feat (which is a category of feat) or any other for which you qualify. And the ASI also allows you to take any feat for which you qualify. And the only qualification for a feat is in its prerequisite, as the rules explicitly state. And that “level” means character level, unless specified, just like with other features that depend on character level, such as cantrips or proficiency.
I’ll repeat myself again: we know what a prerequisite looks like if you need a feature to unlock a feat. Look at fighting styles. If epic boons needed a feature to unlock them, then that would be in their prerequisite.
You might be right that a lot of people don’t understand. But that doesn’t make their view valid or correct, it just means they don’t understand.
I didn't say they don't understand it. I said they question it. Why do the designers need to spell out that you can now take an Epic Boon at that point? That implies that you couldn't take it earlier.
The fact that many people question it means the designers made an error somewhere. It may very well be that the error is that the designers should not have implied that you couldn't take an Epic Boon earlier. However, it could also be that the error is that they should have written the prerequisite differently.
Until there is a clarification, people will have to try and interpret where the error is. Unless you are one of the designers or are in contact with the designers (at which point, could you please ask them to clarify?), it is the height of hubris to assume your interpretation must be the correct one.
It’s just not that complicated. It really doesn’t take hubris, especially when the only thing that anyone has pointed out contrary to this interpretation is that people “question it” without any real specifics or problems with the interpretation.
That isn’t an argument. It’s being wrong. People question if the earth is flat; we know the answer.
Lets be honest, if the issue was as cut and dry as you claim, the OP never would have needed to ask the question in the first place. The fact is that including epic boons as a class feature creates the implication that they are only available once you reach level 19 in a specific class. Whether or not that is intended, is a completely different question.
I'm not really arguing that you are wrong, I'm saying that the opposing view is common enough that if someone is asking how something works, they should be presented with both viewpoints and told to talk to their DM about it, because it literally doesn't matter how anyone in this thread thinks the answer is if the DM ends up thinking its option C that neither of us have even considered.
Sure, if your DM has some opinion, it doesn’t matter what anyone here says. But that begs the question, if your DM’s opinion is the only one that matters, then why ask here? Again, that is a point that is true of EVERY discussion here. This forum section is about how to interpret rules and the right rulings when they exist and the best interpretations when multiple can. In this case, the feats are consistent with each other enough that there really is one clear best ruling.
Maybe it is confusing at first glance. But all you have to do is know where to look. As I said before, maybe a lot of people don’t do much reading for understanding so they don’t really know how to look at the pieces and come to the correct conclusion. But again, if one comes to some other conclusion then fine, but that won’t because of the actual construction of the feats section or the epic boon/ASI class features. It will be because of some notion, preconception, or misunderstanding.
To your point, the OP didn’t know, but maybe because they didn’t know where to look or what was important. But once you point out the prerequisites and the fact that the rules tell you that you can take a feat from any category unless the feature specifies a category, everything falls into place. To go further, remember that OP also asked about repeatability, which, again just shows that they needed a pointer on where to look. But once you know, that one is just as straightforward as the epic boons question.
People absolutely give you specifics. I gave you specifics. You just chose to dismiss them.
I'd disagree. The pre-requisite of "Level 19+" is completely clear and unambiguous by itself. Just read what it says. If the rules wanted to require level 19 in a specific class they could have said "Level 19+ in one class" or it could have listed a pre-requisite of "epic boon class feature".
In this case, the rules don't state any other pre-requisite than level 19+. Period. Guessing what the designers may or may not have intended and trying to interpret the rules to fit what someone thinks they should have said is just not how RAW (Rules As Written) works. In this case, the RAW is extremely clear ... Level 19+ is the stated pre-requisite for epic boon feats.
However, the rules also split epic boon feats into a separate category so perhaps the epic boon class feature allows access to epic boon feats? This again is NOT what the rules explicitly state in regards to feat categories.
"Category. A feat is a member of a category, which is noted in the feat. If you’re instructed to choose a feat from a specific category, such as the Origin category, that category must appear under the feat’s name. If you’re instructed to choose a feat and no category is specified, you can choose from any category."
All of the ASI class features state that you can take the Ability score increase feat or any other feat of your choice for which the character qualifies. "You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify."
Surprisingly perhaps, the rules for this are exceptionally clear. There really isn't anything to argue about or interpret in terms of what is written in the rules themselves in this case (unlike a lot of other topics). DMs are, of course, free to run it however they like and house rule however they wish for their own games but the rules themselves clearly allow an epic boon feat to be selected for any feats granted to a character of level 19+.
The only reason for folks to think that access to epic boon feats is only granted by the epic boon class feature is because the name is the similar. (Epic Boon class feature vs Epic Boon feat) Nothing anywhere else in the actual rules implies that access to epic boons is gated through the class feature AND the rules regarding feat categories explicitly allows access to any category of feats if a category (like origin for example) isn't specified.
All the Epic boon class feature is doing is drawing attention to the fact that a character that is level 19 in a specific class is eligible to choose from the epic boon feat category - nothing in the rules implies that this is the only way to access the category of feats AND if a person reads the rules on feat categories and the Level 19+ pre-requisite for these feats, it becomes clear that these feats are available to any character which gains a feat at level 19+.
The only reason to think otherwise is the words "Epic Boon" in the class feature name ... which means exactly nothing.
I would disagree. Namely because
Level 4: Ability Score Improvement
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. You gain this feature again at Fighter levels 6, 8, 12, 14, and 16.
Level 19: Epic Boon
You gain an Epic Boon feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. Boon of Combat Prowess is recommended.
If it was intended for you to be able to select an Epic Boon Feat (or the ability improvement feat) the Level 4 ability score improvement should read, Levels, 6,8,12,14,16 and 19. There shouldn't be another feature gained at level 19 that lets you select an Epic Boon.
Specifically it appears that with the Level four feature you can select the ability score improvement or another feat (Excluding boons)
For the level 19 ability it appears you can select An epic boon or another feat (excluding the ability score improvement)
If this wasn't the case, there would be 0 reason to break the Level 4 feature and the Level 19 feature if they did the samething. They clearly are not supposed to grant you the same access, otherwise you wouldn't get a new feature at level 19, it would just be the Level 4 feature again.
I read your reply here and I still don't understand how Sneak Attack could be confused as usable with Witch Bolt.
You're not attacking using your Bard's spellcasting focus, you're using it to meet the requirements for casting the spell. That precedes the spell's effects, which, in this case, include the beam of crackling energy and the moment you finally make the attack roll.
Yah? What specifics? What rule are you pointing at that says something different? So far it seems your argument can be restated as "people don't understand what 19th level is." I didn't dismiss that, I said the only reasonable interpretation: that 19th level means what it says, 19th level, not some hidden meaning. If you are going to claim stuff, use proof. That is the problem with this type of argument: it never has substance. It's a populist argument, not a rules argument.
I'll stick to the rules text.
Again, what, other than the name says different? How do you know that the ASI feature grants access to some feats and not others? How do you know that the EB feature actually grants epic boon access? What text points to that? What about ASIs grants access to general feats? Is it nothing about the ability and only the feat prerequisite? Why are epic boons just listed as feats? Is a 20th level character that has an 18/2 split precluded from the beyond 20th level progression described by the rules?
There would be zero reason to think that the same text does something for one heading and something completely different for the other.
There is no confusion.
Attacking with the weapon isn't a requirement, according to what is written. All that is required is that the attack uses a Finesse or Ranged weapon. In this case, you are making a Spell Attack using a Finesse weapon as a focus.
If the designers meant that the attack had to be made with the weapon, they would have said. "Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit when making a Weapon Attack with a Finesse or Ranged weapon. . .". RAW, It is clear, and anyone who doesn't allow it is 'home-brewing'.
Now, for clarity, I am not honestly advocating that this should be allowed. I am trying to demonstrate that focusing on one specific section of the text, ignoring other factors (such as possible intent), and insisting that not following that interpretation means people are 'home-brewing' is a flawed methodology.
Also, to be clear, I am not saying that I don't believe that you can take an Epic Boon at character level 19. I'm saying that acting as though the level 19 feature that every single class possesses couldn't possibly have any meaning is flawed. If people want to say, 'I don't read it that way,' that's fine. They just shouldn't be saying 'you're wrong' (unless they happen to be one of the designers or in direct contact with the designers).
None of that really matters to my point. My point is that once you leave the online optimizer community you are more likely to find that your DM isn't going to allow you to take an epic boon from multiclassing for whatever reason. At the end of the day the reason doesn't matter. So this is really one of those times you want to get with your DM because they likely aren't going to agree with allowing it.
And yes that is true of most things, but I think it is even more so given how split the view is in this.