The Druid in my group had a cool idea last night. RAW of 2024 Moonbeam:
A silvery beam of pale light shines down in a 5-foot-radius, 40-foot-high Cylinder centered on a point within range. Until the spell ends, Dim Light fills the Cylinder, and you can take a Magic action on later turns to move the Cylinder up to 60 feet. When the Cylinder appears, each creature in it makes a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, a creature takes 2d10 Radiant damage, and if the creature is shape-shifted (as a result of the Polymorph spell, for example), it reverts to its true form and can't shape-shift until it leaves the Cylinder. On a successful save, a creature takes half as much damage only. A creature also makes this save when the spell's area moves into its space and when it enters the spell's area or ends its turn there. A creature makes this save only once per turn.
So, first turn, cast Moonbeam, fine, nothing fancy happens.
Second turn however gets really interesting. Druid sees three enemies in a right angle, 15 feet on a side. As so (O is an empty square and X is an enemy):
OOX OOO XOX
She needs to move Moonbeam 10 feet to cover the northeastern four squares and hits the one baddie there, who then fails his save and takes full damage. She then moves the beam 5 feet south and from there, five feet west, hitting the other two baddies in succession. Both also fail their saves and take full damage. But of the 60 feet of Moonbeam movement allowed, she has so far only spent 20. So she now moves the beam five feet east and five feet north to hit the first two baddies a second time. They don’t roll the save again, and so they take the full damage a second time. 30 more feet of movement still remain, so she just keeps moving the beam over these three baddies over and over again until the 60 feet of movement is done. The baddie in the southeast corner gets hit by the beam four times in total for 44 ave dmg. The northeast baddie gets it three times (33) and the remaining southwest baddie got it twice (22). That’s a total of 99 average points of aoe damage for a second level spell.
I can’t find anything RAW to undermine this interpretation. Am I doing it right? It seems OP to me, but correct.
I think the spell description is clear enough: "... A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there. A creature makes this save only once per turn."
Duplicate submission from an edit and a laggy submit button.
In a separate conversation I’ve become convinced that the RAI is for one hit of moonbeam damage per creature per turn. However I still think that the Moonbeam RAW leaves it open to interpretation such that one CON save on a turn applies to as many instances of damage can be applied to an enemy on a single turn just by shuffling the Moonbeam on and off of a target repeatedly.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I run a 5.24e campaign using published adventures every other weekend in my garage. We've been going strong since the summer of 2023.
Duplicate submission from an edit and a laggy submit button.
In a separate conversation I’ve become convinced that the RAI is for one hit of moonbeam damage per creature per turn. However I still think that the Moonbeam RAW leaves it open to interpretation such that one CON save on a turn applies to as many instances of damage can be applied to an enemy on a single turn just by shuffling the Moonbeam on and off of a target repeatedly.
The way the text is written, the damage is dependent on making the save, and the save is limited to once per turn. So no, there's no room RAW for it to deal damage multiple times. The spell can't deal damage without forcing the save first.
I have to agree with the above. Moonbeam only does damage as the result of the saving throw and the saving throw is limited to once per turn, since the creatures no longer make saving throws, they no longer take damage past the first instance of making a saving throw.
However there are still issues with once per turn, weapon mastery push, spells like thunderwave also move creatures, and repelling blast on warlock, it's possible to be getting multiple hits per round due to the current way that Moonbeam works, and I mean more than just 2 hits per round.
I have to agree with the above. Moonbeam only does damage as the result of the saving throw and the saving throw is limited to once per turn, since the creatures no longer make saving throws, they no longer take damage past the first instance of making a saving throw.
However there are still issues with once per turn, weapon mastery push, spells like thunderwave also move creatures, and repelling blast on warlock, it's possible to be getting multiple hits per round due to the current way that Moonbeam works, and I mean more than just 2 hits per round.
I'd say if your team is able to coordinate well enough to push the same creature back and forth that much in such a way so that it enters and exits once every turn, they deserve that. Besides, the creature still gets to make the save every time. The tactic will drop in effectiveness over the course of a campaign anyway, and it's also going to be somewhat dependent on the maps if those are being used by the DM. It's especially iffy when most effects (barring Repelling Blast and Push) require saves which can also be resisted.
I have to agree with the above. Moonbeam only does damage as the result of the saving throw and the saving throw is limited to once per turn, since the creatures no longer make saving throws, they no longer take damage past the first instance of making a saving throw.
However there are still issues with once per turn, weapon mastery push, spells like thunderwave also move creatures, and repelling blast on warlock, it's possible to be getting multiple hits per round due to the current way that Moonbeam works, and I mean more than just 2 hits per round.
I'd say if your team is able to coordinate well enough to push the same creature back and forth that much in such a way so that it enters and exits once every turn, they deserve that. Besides, the creature still gets to make the save every time. The tactic will drop in effectiveness over the course of a campaign anyway, and it's also going to be somewhat dependent on the maps if those are being used by the DM. It's especially iffy when most effects (barring Repelling Blast and Push) require saves which can also be resisted.
That is true, but it gets more egregious when you get into how Spirit Guardians works, I think that the convention should have been that all such spells only do damage once per round, not on per turn basis. Once per round is much easier to deal with overall and slightly nerfs some broken tactics just a bit.
I have to agree with the above. Moonbeam only does damage as the result of the saving throw and the saving throw is limited to once per turn, since the creatures no longer make saving throws, they no longer take damage past the first instance of making a saving throw.
However there are still issues with once per turn, weapon mastery push, spells like thunderwave also move creatures, and repelling blast on warlock, it's possible to be getting multiple hits per round due to the current way that Moonbeam works, and I mean more than just 2 hits per round.
I'd say if your team is able to coordinate well enough to push the same creature back and forth that much in such a way so that it enters and exits once every turn, they deserve that. Besides, the creature still gets to make the save every time. The tactic will drop in effectiveness over the course of a campaign anyway, and it's also going to be somewhat dependent on the maps if those are being used by the DM. It's especially iffy when most effects (barring Repelling Blast and Push) require saves which can also be resisted.
It's actually rediculously easy to do that. You just grab the person and move them or just move moonbeam away and back and away and back
It is easier to grapple a willing creature and move it than an unwilling one now that you can willingly fail the grapple save. That makes moving the emanation easier (significantly) than the enemy in the case of those kinds of spells.
Just to clarify, it is easier to move an ally (w/ an emanation area) than an enemy into an area.
Grapple can help you go around spell 1/turn limit if on your turn you move and drag a grappled creature in and out of the area of effect (or move the emanation's creature on and out of others), then take the Ready action to move and do it again on the subsequent turn.
1. Can the same Moonbeam cause a creature to make a CON save/take damage more than one time per round?
1. No, “A creature makes this save only once per turn”.
2. When the Moonbeam is first cast (and appears over a creature)
2. The creature(s) in the area make a CON save immediately when the spell is cast.Reason:“When the Cylinder appears, each creature in it makes a Constitution saving throw”
3. When the Moonbeam moves into a creature’s space (on the caster's turn and ends over the creature)
3. The creature makes a CON save immediately when the Moonbeam enters its space and remains there through the end of the caster’s turn.Reason:“A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space”
4. When the creature begins its turn in the Moonbeam
4. N/A (no mention of a creature beginning its turn inside the Moonbeam - also not necessarily, I think, because other scenarios where the target would have to roll, would precede this)
5. When the creature ends its turn in the Moonbeam
5. The creature makes a CON save at the end of its turn, if it hasn't already made a save that turn. (Only one CON save per turn).Reason: “A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there.”
6. When the creature is moved into the Moonbeam by another creature/force
6. The creature makes a CON save immediately when it enters there Moonbeam’s AOE as a result of being moved by another creature/force) . (Still only one CON save per turn). Reason: “A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there.”
7. When the creature is voluntarily moving through the Moonbeam (but not starting or ending turn in it)
7. ?The creature enters the Moonbeam's area during its movement, triggering a CON save as it passes through. (Only one CON save per turn). Reason I think that this is likely the case:“A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there.”And it seems like you shouldn’t be able to pass though a Moonbeam’s AOE, using your movement, without taking damage.
8. When the creature is involuntarily moved through the Moonbeam but not in the Moonbeam at the end of any turn
8. ?? The creature makes a CON save immediately when it enters there Moonbeam’s AOE as a result of being moved by another creature/force), Even if it just immediately passes right through the Moonbeam’s AOE (only one CON save per turn). Reason: “A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there.” This seems not too bad and it probably wouldn’t come up a lot
9. When the Moonbeam passes over a creature during its movement (but doesn’t stop there)
9. ????? I feel like this has to be a “no” because this could be abused,butthen the spell description says;“A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space” so it seems like it might be the case.****Re: “and you can take a Magic action on later turns to move the Cylinder up to 60 feet.”It seems like it would be too powerful to be able to pass over as many enemies as your could in 60 ft of movement, round after round. Perhaps worse than Saving throws and damage applyingevery time you movean enemy in and out of the moonbeam.This also seems like it would come up a lot.
10. (Any Scenarios I missed?)
10. (I might not fully understand the thing with the grapple and then readying an action)
Also it the Moonbeam's round measured by the turn of the player who cast Moonbeam?
If I read correctly, your interactions are ok for me. The important thing to remember is the CON save save is limited to once per turn.
Regarding the three last cases with question marks:
* "When the creature is voluntarily moving through the Moonbeam (but not starting or ending turn in it)": CON save required
* "When the creature is involuntarily moved through the Moonbeam but not in the Moonbeam at the end of any turn": CON save required
* "When the Moonbeam passes over a creature during its movement (but doesn’t stop there)": this requires also a CON save for creatures along the path
About the last question ("I might not fully understand the thing with the grapple and then readying an action"), it's similar to "When the creature is moved into the Moonbeam by another creature/force". You're grappling a creature, moving it into the area (triggering a save), and leaving on your turn with the creature. Then, you Ready an action to move the creature again using your Reaction off turn (triggering a save)
I read 1 differently and I think I agree on 3 and 8.
1: Your question is about round, but the spell describes how many times the creature can be damaged per turn. There are many turns in a round. So RAW you could create a moonbeam turn 1 (initiative 20 for example) and do damage to a creature. The creature moves off on turn 2 but still round 1(initiative 15). On turn 3 (round 1) in a later initiative a warlock could repelling blast the creature back into the Moonbeam doing damage. Picture Moonbeam as hazardous terrain: finish your turn there= damage, get thrown into it= damage.
3,8: These are similar. For 3, certainly when a moonbeam moves into someone's space and stays there the creature takes damage. Otherwise it's a ridiculous nerf. 8 is a big question. As written the question is whether "moves onto" means stays there. I don't think the language really supports this. But, in reality if moving through a space does damage than a moonbeam upcast to level 3 significantly out damages Call Lightning, and that's my litmus test. The spells are similar in many ways, and there are nearly no ways in which a higher level spell would outdo a lower spell that's upcast. I agree with your conclusions RAI, but not necessarily that this is RAW.
Edit: I just read the spell again, it reads "move into" not "move onto". So I would say RAW it does damage like a space laser.
The balancing for moon beam is the limited initial targets and action economy.
Case in point I cast it in a game this weekend and hit two creatures out of the 12 on the board, plan was to move it around the field on subsequent turns since space was limited so wild shape wasn't an option (Moon Druid). The majority of creatures moved up and were taken out by a really good Fireball (almost 40 dmg, lvl 3). My next turn was casting cure wounds on the Fireballer since they immediately focused him with remaining forces, preventing me from using moonbeam. The other characters than mopped up the leftovers before my next turn.
The balancing for moon beam is the limited initial targets and action economy.
Case in point I cast it in a game this weekend and hit two creatures out of the 12 on the board, plan was to move it around the field on subsequent turns since space was limited so wild shape wasn't an option (Moon Druid). The majority of creatures moved up and were taken out by a really good Fireball (almost 40 dmg, lvl 3). My next turn was casting cure wounds on the Fireballer since they immediately focused him with remaining forces, preventing me from using moonbeam. The other characters than mopped up the leftovers before my next turn.
This sounds very situational, in this case moonbeam didn't do too much, but in another case, there is a choke point and you cast moonbeam in it, every creature has to walk through that choke point to attack or make ranged attacks. There is nothing in D&D that works in 100% of all situations.
I read 1 differently and I think I agree on 3 and 8.
1: Your question is about round, but the spell describes how many times the creature can be damaged per turn. There are many turns in a round. So RAW you could create a moonbeam turn 1 (initiative 20 for example) and do damage to a creature. The creature moves off on turn 2 but still round 1(initiative 15). On turn 3 (round 1) in a later initiative a warlock could repelling blast the creature back into the Moonbeam doing damage. Picture Moonbeam as hazardous terrain: finish your turn there= damage, get thrown into it= damage.
3,8: These are similar. For 3, certainly when a moonbeam moves into someone's space and stays there the creature takes damage. Otherwise it's a ridiculous nerf. 8 is a big question. As written the question is whether "moves onto" means stays there. I don't think the language really supports this. But, in reality if moving through a space does damage than a moonbeam upcast to level 3 significantly out damages Call Lightning, and that's my litmus test. The spells are similar in many ways, and there are nearly no ways in which a higher level spell would outdo a lower spell that's upcast. I agree with your conclusions RAI, but not necessarily that this is RAW.
Edit: I just read the spell again, it reads "move into" not "move onto". So I would say RAW it does damage like a space laser.
The Druid in my group had a cool idea last night. RAW of 2024 Moonbeam:
A silvery beam of pale light shines down in a 5-foot-radius, 40-foot-high Cylinder centered on a point within range. Until the spell ends, Dim Light fills the Cylinder, and you can take a Magic action on later turns to move the Cylinder up to 60 feet. When the Cylinder appears, each creature in it makes a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, a creature takes 2d10 Radiant damage, and if the creature is shape-shifted (as a result of the Polymorph spell, for example), it reverts to its true form and can't shape-shift until it leaves the Cylinder. On a successful save, a creature takes half as much damage only. A creature also makes this save when the spell's area moves into its space and when it enters the spell's area or ends its turn there. A creature makes this save only once per turn.
So, first turn, cast Moonbeam, fine, nothing fancy happens.
Second turn however gets really interesting. Druid sees three enemies in a right angle, 15 feet on a side. As so (O is an empty square and X is an enemy):
OOX
OOO
XOX
She needs to move Moonbeam 10 feet to cover the northeastern four squares and hits the one baddie there, who then fails his save and takes full damage. She then moves the beam 5 feet south and from there, five feet west, hitting the other two baddies in succession. Both also fail their saves and take full damage. But of the 60 feet of Moonbeam movement allowed, she has so far only spent 20. So she now moves the beam five feet east and five feet north to hit the first two baddies a second time. They don’t roll the save again, and so they take the full damage a second time. 30 more feet of movement still remain, so she just keeps moving the beam over these three baddies over and over again until the 60 feet of movement is done. The baddie in the southeast corner gets hit by the beam four times in total for 44 ave dmg. The northeast baddie gets it three times (33) and the remaining southwest baddie got it twice (22). That’s a total of 99 average points of aoe damage for a second level spell.
I can’t find anything RAW to undermine this interpretation. Am I doing it right? It seems OP to me, but correct.
I run a 5.24e campaign using published adventures every other weekend in my garage. We've been going strong since the summer of 2023.
(it seems the duplicated thread has been removed, so I'll share my opinion here again)
Spells like Moonbeam, Cloudkill and Spirit Guardians should affect creatures along the path of movement, but only once per turn.
I think the spell description is clear enough: "... A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there. A creature makes this save only once per turn."
The OP's interaction was also debated in Question about the new rules of when creatures take damage from ongoing spell effects.
Duplicate submission from an edit and a laggy submit button.
In a separate conversation I’ve become convinced that the RAI is for one hit of moonbeam damage per creature per turn. However I still think that the Moonbeam RAW leaves it open to interpretation such that one CON save on a turn applies to as many instances of damage can be applied to an enemy on a single turn just by shuffling the Moonbeam on and off of a target repeatedly.
I run a 5.24e campaign using published adventures every other weekend in my garage. We've been going strong since the summer of 2023.
The way the text is written, the damage is dependent on making the save, and the save is limited to once per turn. So no, there's no room RAW for it to deal damage multiple times. The spell can't deal damage without forcing the save first.
I have to agree with the above. Moonbeam only does damage as the result of the saving throw and the saving throw is limited to once per turn, since the creatures no longer make saving throws, they no longer take damage past the first instance of making a saving throw.
However there are still issues with once per turn, weapon mastery push, spells like thunderwave also move creatures, and repelling blast on warlock, it's possible to be getting multiple hits per round due to the current way that Moonbeam works, and I mean more than just 2 hits per round.
I'd say if your team is able to coordinate well enough to push the same creature back and forth that much in such a way so that it enters and exits once every turn, they deserve that. Besides, the creature still gets to make the save every time. The tactic will drop in effectiveness over the course of a campaign anyway, and it's also going to be somewhat dependent on the maps if those are being used by the DM. It's especially iffy when most effects (barring Repelling Blast and Push) require saves which can also be resisted.
That is true, but it gets more egregious when you get into how Spirit Guardians works, I think that the convention should have been that all such spells only do damage once per round, not on per turn basis. Once per round is much easier to deal with overall and slightly nerfs some broken tactics just a bit.
Yeah, I know, but the duplicated thread had some interesting replies.
For example, the one Agilemind provided about a proof to determine if Moonbeam is an effect you move rather than a teleport:
Moonbeam says "move the Cylinder":
For comparison, Cloud of Daggers says "teleport the Cube":
I agree. I would have deleted the thread without any replies before the one with replies, but it wasn't up to me apparently.
I run a 5.24e campaign using published adventures every other weekend in my garage. We've been going strong since the summer of 2023.
Don't worry at all, at least on my part. Probably the moderator.
It's actually rediculously easy to do that. You just grab the person and move them or just move moonbeam away and back and away and back
It is easier to grapple a willing creature and move it than an unwilling one now that you can willingly fail the grapple save. That makes moving the emanation easier (significantly) than the enemy in the case of those kinds of spells.
Just to clarify, it is easier to move an ally (w/ an emanation area) than an enemy into an area.
Grapple can help you go around spell 1/turn limit if on your turn you move and drag a grappled creature in and out of the area of effect (or move the emanation's creature on and out of others), then take the Ready action to move and do it again on the subsequent turn.
Is this right? Note: some have question marks, because I'm really not sure. (source for quoted material: https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2619134-moonbeam)
Scenario
When is the CON Saving Throw Rolled?
1. Can the same Moonbeam cause a creature to make a CON save/take damage more than one time per round?
1. No, “A creature makes this save only once per turn”.
2. When the Moonbeam is first cast (and appears over a creature)
2. The creature(s) in the area make a CON save immediately when the spell is cast. Reason: “When the Cylinder appears, each creature in it makes a Constitution saving throw”
3. When the Moonbeam moves into a creature’s space (on the caster's turn and ends over the creature)
3. The creature makes a CON save immediately when the Moonbeam enters its space and remains there through the end of the caster’s turn. Reason: “A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space”
4. When the creature begins its turn in the Moonbeam
4. N/A (no mention of a creature beginning its turn inside the Moonbeam - also not necessarily, I think, because other scenarios where the target would have to roll, would precede this)
5. When the creature ends its turn in the Moonbeam
5. The creature makes a CON save at the end of its turn, if it hasn't already made a save that turn. (Only one CON save per turn). Reason: “A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there.”
6. When the creature is moved into the Moonbeam by another creature/force
6. The creature makes a CON save immediately when it enters there Moonbeam’s AOE as a result of being moved by another creature/force) . (Still only one CON save per turn). Reason: “A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there.”
7. When the creature is voluntarily moving through the Moonbeam (but not starting or ending turn in it)
7. ? The creature enters the Moonbeam's area during its movement, triggering a CON save as it passes through. (Only one CON save per turn). Reason I think that this is likely the case: “A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there.” And it seems like you shouldn’t be able to pass though a Moonbeam’s AOE, using your movement, without taking damage.
8. When the creature is involuntarily moved through the Moonbeam but not in the Moonbeam at the end of any turn
8. ?? The creature makes a CON save immediately when it enters there Moonbeam’s AOE as a result of being moved by another creature/force), Even if it just immediately passes right through the Moonbeam’s AOE (only one CON save per turn). Reason: “A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there.” This seems not too bad and it probably wouldn’t come up a lot
9. When the Moonbeam passes over a creature during its movement (but doesn’t stop there)
9. ????? I feel like this has to be a “no” because this could be abused, but then the spell description says; “A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space” so it seems like it might be the case. **** Re: “and you can take a Magic action on later turns to move the Cylinder up to 60 feet.” It seems like it would be too powerful to be able to pass over as many enemies as your could in 60 ft of movement, round after round. Perhaps worse than Saving throws and damage applying every time you move an enemy in and out of the moonbeam. This also seems like it would come up a lot.
10. (Any Scenarios I missed?)
10. (I might not fully understand the thing with the grapple and then readying an action)
Also it the Moonbeam's round measured by the turn of the player who cast Moonbeam?
If I read correctly, your interactions are ok for me. The important thing to remember is the CON save save is limited to once per turn.
Regarding the three last cases with question marks:
* "When the creature is voluntarily moving through the Moonbeam (but not starting or ending turn in it)": CON save required
* "When the creature is involuntarily moved through the Moonbeam but not in the Moonbeam at the end of any turn": CON save required
* "When the Moonbeam passes over a creature during its movement (but doesn’t stop there)": this requires also a CON save for creatures along the path
About the last question ("I might not fully understand the thing with the grapple and then readying an action"), it's similar to "When the creature is moved into the Moonbeam by another creature/force". You're grappling a creature, moving it into the area (triggering a save), and leaving on your turn with the creature. Then, you Ready an action to move the creature again using your Reaction off turn (triggering a save)
I read 1 differently and I think I agree on 3 and 8.
1: Your question is about round, but the spell describes how many times the creature can be damaged per turn. There are many turns in a round. So RAW you could create a moonbeam turn 1 (initiative 20 for example) and do damage to a creature. The creature moves off on turn 2 but still round 1(initiative 15). On turn 3 (round 1) in a later initiative a warlock could repelling blast the creature back into the Moonbeam doing damage. Picture Moonbeam as hazardous terrain: finish your turn there= damage, get thrown into it= damage.
3,8: These are similar. For 3, certainly when a moonbeam moves into someone's space and stays there the creature takes damage. Otherwise it's a ridiculous nerf. 8 is a big question. As written the question is whether "moves onto" means stays there. I don't think the language really supports this. But, in reality if moving through a space does damage than a moonbeam upcast to level 3 significantly out damages Call Lightning, and that's my litmus test. The spells are similar in many ways, and there are nearly no ways in which a higher level spell would outdo a lower spell that's upcast. I agree with your conclusions RAI, but not necessarily that this is RAW.
Edit: I just read the spell again, it reads "move into" not "move onto". So I would say RAW it does damage like a space laser.
The balancing for moon beam is the limited initial targets and action economy.
Case in point I cast it in a game this weekend and hit two creatures out of the 12 on the board, plan was to move it around the field on subsequent turns since space was limited so wild shape wasn't an option (Moon Druid). The majority of creatures moved up and were taken out by a really good Fireball (almost 40 dmg, lvl 3). My next turn was casting cure wounds on the Fireballer since they immediately focused him with remaining forces, preventing me from using moonbeam. The other characters than mopped up the leftovers before my next turn.
This sounds very situational, in this case moonbeam didn't do too much, but in another case, there is a choke point and you cast moonbeam in it, every creature has to walk through that choke point to attack or make ranged attacks. There is nothing in D&D that works in 100% of all situations.
If you're interested, the thread I linked has nice examples provided by @Agilemind.