There are a couple of new spells that allow you to move the spell with an action.
Does the spell actually move from point A to point B or does it dissapear and reapear
With the new rules of when creatures take damage there is an import distinction between those 2
"A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space "
For example i cast moonbeam on a enemy A. With a magic action on later turns i want to move the moonbeam 60 feet to enemy C. If there is a enemy B between them does B need to make the save too?
I'd say yes, B needs to make the save for the 2024 Moonbeam.
If what we had in the Sage Advice Compendium for the 2014 rules about Areas of Effect was accepted before (see below), I understand that this has now changed, and it should follow what the spell description says:
"... A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there. A creature makes this save only once per turn."
The answer to both questions is no. Here’s some elaboration on that answer.
Some spells and other game features create an area of effect that does something when a creature enters that area for the first time on a turn or when a creature starts its turn in that area. On the turn when you cast such a spell, you’re primarily setting up hurt for your foes on later turns. Moonbeam, for example, creates a beam of light that can damage a creature who enters the beam or who starts its turn in the beam.
Reading the description of any of those spells, you might wonder whether a creature is considered to be entering the spell’s area of effect if the area is created on the creature’s space. And if the area of effect can be moved—as the beam of moonbeam can—does moving it into a creature’s space count as the creature entering the area? Our design intent for such spells is this: a creature enters the area of effect when the creature passes into it. Creating the area of effect on the creature or moving it onto the creature doesn’t count. If the creature is still in the area at the start of its turn, it is subjected to the area’s effect.
I would say B is not affected. Can you zigzag it around the battlefield up to 60 feet to another point to get as many enemies as you can? Is it only a straight line? Or even a circle for it to end up back where it started from?
I don’t think that’s the intention, but would be a DM call and would like clarification for the movement. And a different situation compared to Spirit Guardians as the PC is moving and the effect is emanating from them.
I can see it going both ways. And it didn’t matter for the 2014 version of Moonbeam so I hadn’t thought much about if it disappeared and reappeared or if it passed through creature spaces along the way.
This spell got a pretty big buff with the new rules -- as written, enemy B is definitely affected. But keep in mind that beyond the first turn of this spell being active this will be the main method for affecting creatures since some of the timing has changed -- a creature is affected when it "ends its turn there" instead of "starts its turn there".
Still, it now seems like a very powerful 2nd level spell and could heavily incentivize attempts to break that spellcaster's concentration when this effect is seen entering the battlefield.
On a grid, on the initial turn this AoE would affect 4 squares. On subsequent turns, if moved in a straight line along a grid line, it could affect 24 squares without using a spell slot, but it does require concentration and uses up an action.
In comparison, the 3rd level Fireball spell can affect 52 squares and affected squares suffer about twice as much damage. So, although it's been buffed, the new Moonbeam might not be as overpowered as it appears to be at first glance.
As for zigzagging shenanigans -- in the 2014 DMG we had this rule for spherical AoE regions: " If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square." The question is -- does that come into play when interpreting the phrase "when the spell's area moves into its space"? So, can we move a moonbeam such that it just barely clips a small corner of a creature's space on the way through, or do we enforce the rule for how much of the space must be affected by an AoE in order to be considered to be "included" within the AoE's area?
I think that it's reasonable to enforce the fact that this AoE has to cover at least half of a square at some point in order to affect that square, and this should significantly reduce how many squares can be affected when moving the moonbeam.
Regarding grid play, it's pretty easy to handle in practice. Since a 5t radius circle fits inside a 10x10 square you fix the center of Moonbeam on an intersection on the grid, and it can only move in 5ft increments to other intersections. Easy to visualize, and prevents any shenanigans about inching the circle around the board.
If a creature starts it’s turn inside the area of effect and the description states a creature takes damage from the effect when the creature enters or ends it’s turn within the AoE, then naturally the creature will immediately roll for the save, and ether save or not, and take the once per turn damage. If the creature has not cleared the area, then they do not have to take the damage again, as they have already been affected.
This is actually the exact thing that has explicitly changed for spells such as Moonbeam.
Moonbeam 2014: "When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there . . ."
Moonbeam 2024: "A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there.
So, no. In 2024 the creature is not affected by starting its turn in the area. This was a deliberate design change.
If a creature starts it’s turn inside the area of effect and the description states a creature takes damage from the effect when the creature enters or ends it’s turn within the AoE, then naturally the creature will immediately roll for the save, and ether save or not, and take the once per turn damage. If the creature has not cleared the area, then they do not have to take the damage again, as they have already been affected.
This is actually the exact thing that has explicitly changed for spells such as Moonbeam.
Moonbeam 2014: "When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there . . ."
Moonbeam 2024: "A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there.
So, no. In 2024 the creature is not affected by starting its turn in the area. This was a deliberate design change.
And is not the spells area in the creatures space as the creature begins its turn, ( pending the spell is still up) thus forcing the save via description of spell 2024 which you quoted?
The area is there but the creature doesn’t take damage at the start of their turn. Only the end or when it enters the area or the area enters its square. But if you move the area on the creature it can take damage but once its turn comes they can live out of it with no additional damage taken.
If a creature starts it’s turn inside the area of effect and the description states a creature takes damage from the effect when the creature enters or ends it’s turn within the AoE, then naturally the creature will immediately roll for the save, and ether save or not, and take the once per turn damage. If the creature has not cleared the area, then they do not have to take the damage again, as they have already been affected.
This is actually the exact thing that has explicitly changed for spells such as Moonbeam.
Moonbeam 2014: "When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there . . ."
Moonbeam 2024: "A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there.
So, no. In 2024 the creature is not affected by starting its turn in the area. This was a deliberate design change.
And is not the spells area in the creatures space as the creature begins its turn, ( pending the spell is still up) thus forcing the save via description of spell 2024 which you quoted?
The area is there but the creature doesn’t take damage at the start of their turn. Only the end or when it enters the area or the area enters its square. But if you move the area on the creature it can take damage but once its turn comes they can live out of it with no additional damage taken.
So if a creature was not previously in an AoE and the AoE is effective after a creature’s turn has passed, in which the creature at the start of it’s new turn is now effectively within the AoE ( pending type of AoE spell and effects, in this instance the discussion is about the MoonBeam versions of the spell and how the new wording may be interpreted in different ways. ) 2024: We know that as soon as the spell is cast, the creature will have to save, or not. Also, we know if a creature is in a space when the area is moved into the creature’s space that creature has to save, or not. And if a creature has to end its movement/turn in the area it has to save, or not.
Previously, ( 2014 ) if a creature had started their turn in the AoE that creature had to save, or not and it all was a once per turn event.
Sounds like in 2024, it’s the same story just a different style of wordplay, if at anytime your in that AoE, you can save, or not.
It’s not the same. In 2014 if I cast the spell on a creature’s space, nothing happened. Only if they started their turn in the area (so if somehow they got knocked out of the area before the start of their turn, they made no save). Or if the creature got moved into the area (like from a shove) they had to save (similar to 2024)
In 2024, at the time of casting the creature will have to save (different than 2014). And if they got knocked into or moved into the area, they have to save (like in 2014). But starting their turn in the area does nothing (different than 2014). Or if the area is moved into the creature’s space they have to save.
In 2014 if the creature was outside the area and got knocked into it (save) and then started their turn in the area (save) they would have to save twice. In 2024 that doesn’t happen.
I already shared my point of view on when a creature is affected in the thread I posted earlier about Spirit Guardians. I explained the difference there, but the same applies to similar spells with the same wording (for example, Moonbeam, Conjure Animals or Cloudkill):
Previously: "when the creature enters the area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there" ~= "whenever a creature enters the Emanation or starts its turn there [...] A creature makes this save only once per turn."
Now: "whenever the Emanation enters a creature’s space and whenever a creature enters the Emanation or ends its turn there".
Clearly, it's not the same. To be more clear, the opposite is also true now in 2024: if you move the area into the creature's space, the creature must make a Wisdom saving throw.
Regarding Moonbeam and whether the beam moves across the space to a new point or just teleports, we have the following description in Cloud of Daggers:
... On your later turns, you can take a Magic action to teleport the Cube up to 30 feet.
I would say B is not affected. Can you zigzag it around the battlefield up to 60 feet to another point to get as many enemies as you can? Is it only a straight line? Or even a circle for it to end up back where it started from?
If a Cleric can zigzag run around the battlefield hitting all kinds of enemies with their Spiritual Guardians then why shouldn't a Druid be able to do the same thing with their Moonbeam? It is unambiguous that "when the spell area enters a creature's space" would include the area of the Spiritual Guardians moving in response to the Cleric moving or being moved in any pattern they like. This includes the Cleric moving 120 ft per turn by riding a horse. So it's not going to be any more game breaking (in fact it is substantially less powerful) for Moonbeam to also be able to hit many creatures by being moved 60 ft as an Action.
If a creature starts it’s turn inside the area of effect and the description states a creature takes damage from the effect when the creature enters or ends it’s turn within the AoE, then naturally the creature will immediately roll for the save, and ether save or not, and take the once per turn damage. If the creature has not cleared the area, then they do not have to take the damage again, as they have already been affected.
This is actually the exact thing that has explicitly changed for spells such as Moonbeam.
Moonbeam 2014: "When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there . . ."
Moonbeam 2024: "A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there.
So, no. In 2024 the creature is not affected by starting its turn in the area. This was a deliberate design change.
And is not the spells area in the creatures space as the creature begins its turn, ( pending the spell is still up) thus forcing the save via description of spell 2024 which you quoted?
The area is there but the creature doesn’t take damage at the start of their turn. Only the end or when it enters the area or the area enters its square. But if you move the area on the creature it can take damage but once its turn comes they can live out of it with no additional damage taken.
So if a creature was not previously in an AoE and the AoE is effective after a creature’s turn has passed, in which the creature at the start of it’s new turn is now effectively within the AoE ( pending type of AoE spell and effects, in this instance the discussion is about the MoonBeam versions of the spell and how the new wording may be interpreted in different ways. ) 2024: We know that as soon as the spell is cast, the creature will have to save, or not. Also, we know if a creature is in a space when the area is moved into the creature’s space that creature has to save, or not. And if a creature has to end its movement/turn in the area it has to save, or not.
Previously, ( 2014 ) if a creature had started their turn in the AoE that creature had to save, or not and it all was a once per turn event.
Sounds like in 2024, it’s the same story just a different style of wordplay, if at anytime your in that AoE, you can save, or not.
It’s not the same. In 2014 if I cast the spell on a creature’s space, nothing happened. Only if they started their turn in the area (so if somehow they got knocked out of the area before the start of their turn, they made no save). Or if the creature got moved into the area (like from a shove) they had to save (similar to 2024)
In 2024, at the time of casting the creature will have to save (different than 2014). And if they got knocked into or moved into the area, they have to save (like in 2014). But starting their turn in the area does nothing (different than 2014). Or if the area is moved into the creature’s space they have to save.
In 2014 if the creature was outside the area and got knocked into it (save) and then started their turn in the area (save) they would have to save twice. In 2024 that doesn’t happen.
Similar but the timing is different
2014 Moonbeam description states: “When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there…” which clearly means if in 2014 if moonbeam was cast right onto a creature that was targeted, that creature would be entering the spells area for the first time on a turn, not exactly the targeted creature’s own turn, but “on a turn none the less. ( and yes a lot of D&D rules do have misunderstood timing wording, and is the biggest reason most individuals can’t wrap their heads around how some rules can do things that apparently seem possible but are not explicitly defined. )
Just in both the 14 and 24 rules, if you start your turn in the area, save. If the area is moved or created in your space, save. You enter the area for the first time, regardless of method of entry, save. End your movement and “turn” in the area, save.
But the biggest thing is, regardless of how the damage happens to occur, it ether gets applied at the beginning of a creatures turn or after it, depending on DM fiat on the timing of application because of the once per turn clause. Otherwise the ability to multi effect a creature in quick succession is a possibility. Cast and effect a creature just before it’s next round turn, force save, creature’s turn now comes up and creature has lets say had it’s movement dropped to 0, and can’t leave the AoE, so it has to end it’s turn there and what is the timing for that situation? If the once per turn clause wasn’t in the 24 rules, that could be a double or even triple play damage run, ( should not have to go into details on how that would even be possible without the OPT clause, but a monk stun locking a creature in place while moonbeam is used like a cheese grater combo sounds fun) .
2014 5e rules and the timing was no different , if you stared in the AoE or if the AoE was entered into, regardless of entry method, ( even if the method of entry or having to start the turn inside the AoE was having it cast directly on the creature’s space or it having been moved onto the creature’s space) then the damage was applied once per turn, specifically at the beginning of the creature’s turn, and ending in the AoE in 14 5e rules was already taken care of by way of you got that damage at the start of the turn.
TL;DR in a nutshell all they did for 24 was rephrase the wording of Moonbeam so that functionally it does the same thing as it did in 2014 5e, they just had to explicitly state the damage is a once per turn effect in the way they wrote the 2024 spell version.
You’re completely wrong and I don’t know how to explain it any other way.
Post #3 and 4 both contain the quote from the Sage Advice Compendium (which is an official explanation unlike the sage advice on twitter) that also explains you are wrong.
2014 casting the spell onto a creatures space DOES NOT count as them entering the space on a turn.
And 2024 does absolutely nothing on the start of a creatures turn if they are in the area. Only if they end their turn in it.
Moonbeam in 2024 and 2014 are the same, and the difference is nothing more than word play.
This is incorrect. You really should stop saying this over and over again as the differences have been quoted and explained to you several times now.
2014 Moonbeam:
When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there
2024 Moonbeam:
When the Cylinder appears . . .
A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there. A creature makes this save only once per turn.
Mechanically, these two versions of the spell are dramatically different. Repeatedly claiming that they work the same way has no rules support. Spells do what they say, and these two versions of the spell say different things.
Ok, so if by 2024 spell rule, when does a creature that has been affected by a moonbeam spell have to save and accept the damage?
If a creature is affected before their next turn, but after their last turn, when is the damage applied? The end of the previous turn, or the start of the next turn?
According to 2024, with no start of turn wording, thats a case of end of previous turn damage, and depending on timing, well I would not want to be the DM.
2014 rules had that covered with the start of turn, because like 2024, a 2014 moonbeam caster cast the spell and move it around the map, and a creature might find it is in the AoE at some point and What happens next?
Both 2014 and 2024 casters expect the creature that just got lucky enough to find itself in the AoE and Damage is incoming, so when does that creature take that damage in relation to the timing of how turns/rounds are defined, and the wording provided by the spells description as far as timing is concerned?
Think people, think. Nothing changed, timing of damage effect is just as it was previously, you ether take the damage at the start of your next turn, or the end of your turn, depending on how your DM wants to run it.
The two spells are practically the same, both have the same issue, timing.
Sorry I'm really confused what you are arguing so since you seem to have trouble understanding here's an example:
2014: Therazu casts Fireball on the whole party. Meiko casts Moonbeam on Therazu on their turn. No damage is dealt. Hurran & Daille hit Terazu with their greatsword & their arrows on their turns dealing damage to him Therazu takes Moonbeam damage at the start of his turn, and casts Fireball on the whole party then moves out of the Moonbeam. Meiko casts Mass Cure Wounds on his turn Hurran moves and Shoves Therazu into the Moonbeam - Therazu makes takes damage from Moonbeam immediately. Daille shoots arrows into Therazu Therazu takes damage from Moonbeam again at the start of their turn, hits Hurran with a flaming greatsword, then teleports 30 ft away. Meiko moves Moonbeam on to Therazu Hurran throws a Javelin into Therazu killing him End of Combat
2024: Therazu casts Fireball on the whole party. Meiko casts Moonbeam on Therazu on their turn, Therazu takes Moonbeam damage immediately Hurran & Daille hit Terazu with their greatsword & their arrows on their turns dealing damage to him Therazu casts Fireball on the whole party then moves out of the Moonbeam. Meiko casts Mass Cure Wounds on his turn Hurran moves and shoves Therazu into the Moonbeam - Therazu makes takes damage from Moonbeam immediately. Daille shoots arrows into Therazu Therazu hits Hurran with a flaming greatsword, then teleports 30 ft away. Meiko moves Moonbeam on to Therazu, Therazu takes Moonbeam immediately. Hurran throws a Javelin into Therazu killing him. End of Combat
Ok, so if by 2024 spell rule, when does a creature that has been affected by a moonbeam spell have to save and accept the damage?
If a creature is affected before their next turn, but after their last turn, when is the damage applied? The end of the previous turn, or the start of the next turn?
What in the world is giving you the impression that damage in this game is taken only at certain times such as at the start or end of that creature's turn?
The general rules for damage do not say anything like that. In general, a creature takes damage whenever the rule or feature or effect in question says that it takes damage. Typically this will occur immediately after a specific event happens that causes damage.
For example, if I attack a goblin with my sword on my turn, and I hit the goblin with that attack, then that goblin immediately takes damage while it is still my turn. You do not wait until the goblin's turn to resolve this damage. It happens immediately.
Both versions of the moonbeam spell specify exactly when the damage is dealt. It happens immediately after the saving throw is resolved. The saving throw is called for at very specific times as indicated by the spell description. These specific times are different for the two versions of the spell.
Ok so what if in the 2014 version therazu has a companion that pushes Therazu out of the moonbeam before their turn, according to some Therazu never gets damaged, yet the spell was cast directly on them, and therefore was entered into the AoE, so they should have been damaged by the spell, same result as in 2024.
In fact, in 2014 if Moonbeam was cast at a location which created an AoE that included a creature and that creature was pushed out of that area before his turn started then that creature would not be damaged by the spell. The creature did not enter the AoE. Instead, the AoE was actively placed such that the creature was within the area. Sage Advice confirmed that these were meant to be two different things, and in fact they are two different things. Saying that they "should have" been damaged is neither here nor there -- according to the spell description the spell did not work that way and therefore, according to the description, the creature actually should not have been damaged. And therefore, it was not damaged in that scenario.
Worst yet what if Therazu is last in initiative? Again if Therazu has a companion, or worst yet simply walks out of the AoE, then the expectation was that they get damaged on the casting,
No, that's incorrect. In 2014, the creature was damaged at the start of his turn. So, on his turn, he takes damage and then walks out of the AoE. However, he was NOT damaged upon the casting of the spell.
“ or you enter the area, ..” which means at ANY point in time, that creature will be in the AoE, and at that point is when the creature will be damaged.
No, that's incorrect. That's NOT what that means. The creature enters the area means the creature enters the area -- NOT the creature is in the area. The fact that this distinction was intended is confirmed by Sage Advice.
Why have the ability in 2014 to move an AoE if the only time a creature can ever be damaged is precisely one instance?
Are you suggesting that every time the spellcaster moves the beam he should be guaranteed to damage the creature twice? That doesn't make much sense.
No.
In 2014 you move the beam onto the creature. Then, when that creature's turn rolls around that creature takes damage at the start of its turn.
In 2024, you move the beam onto the creature, which damages that creature immediately (on the spellcaster's turn). Then, when that creature's turn rolls around that creature has an opportunity to move out of the area -- otherwise, it will be damaged again at the end of its turn.
If a creature starts it’s turn inside the area of effect and the description states a creature takes damage from the effect when the creature enters or ends it’s turn within the AoE, then naturally the creature will immediately roll for the save, and ether save or not, and take the once per turn damage. If the creature has not cleared the area, then they do not have to take the damage again, as they have already been affected.
This is actually the exact thing that has explicitly changed for spells such as Moonbeam.
Moonbeam 2014: "When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there . . ."
Moonbeam 2024: "A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there.
So, no. In 2024 the creature is not affected by starting its turn in the area. This was a deliberate design change.
And is not the spells area in the creatures space as the creature begins its turn, ( pending the spell is still up) thus forcing the save via description of spell 2024 which you quoted?
The area is there but the creature doesn’t take damage at the start of their turn. Only the end or when it enters the area or the area enters its square. But if you move the area on the creature it can take damage but once its turn comes they can live out of it with no additional damage taken.
So if a creature was not previously in an AoE and the AoE is effective after a creature’s turn has passed, in which the creature at the start of it’s new turn is now effectively within the AoE ( pending type of AoE spell and effects, in this instance the discussion is about the MoonBeam versions of the spell and how the new wording may be interpreted in different ways. ) 2024: We know that as soon as the spell is cast, the creature will have to save, or not. Also, we know if a creature is in a space when the area is moved into the creature’s space that creature has to save, or not. And if a creature has to end its movement/turn in the area it has to save, or not.
Previously, ( 2014 ) if a creature had started their turn in the AoE that creature had to save, or not and it all was a once per turn event.
Sounds like in 2024, it’s the same story just a different style of wordplay, if at anytime your in that AoE, you can save, or not.
It’s not the same. In 2014 if I cast the spell on a creature’s space, nothing happened. Only if they started their turn in the area (so if somehow they got knocked out of the area before the start of their turn, they made no save). Or if the creature got moved into the area (like from a shove) they had to save (similar to 2024)
In 2024, at the time of casting the creature will have to save (different than 2014). And if they got knocked into or moved into the area, they have to save (like in 2014). But starting their turn in the area does nothing (different than 2014). Or if the area is moved into the creature’s space they have to save.
In 2014 if the creature was outside the area and got knocked into it (save) and then started their turn in the area (save) they would have to save twice. In 2024 that doesn’t happen.
Similar but the timing is different
2014 Moonbeam description states: “When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there…” which clearly means if in 2014 if moonbeam was cast right onto a creature that was targeted, that creature would be entering the spells area for the first time on a turn, not exactly the targeted creature’s own turn, but “on a turn none the less. ( and yes a lot of D&D rules do have misunderstood timing wording, and is the biggest reason most individuals can’t wrap their heads around how some rules can do things that apparently seem possible but are not explicitly defined. )
Just in both the 14 and 24 rules, if you start your turn in the area, save. If the area is moved or created in your space, save. You enter the area for the first time, regardless of method of entry, save. End your movement and “turn” in the area, save.
But the biggest thing is, regardless of how the damage happens to occur, it ether gets applied at the beginning of a creatures turn or after it, depending on DM fiat on the timing of application because of the once per turn clause. Otherwise the ability to multi effect a creature in quick succession is a possibility. Cast and effect a creature just before it’s next round turn, force save, creature’s turn now comes up and creature has lets say had it’s movement dropped to 0, and can’t leave the AoE, so it has to end it’s turn there and what is the timing for that situation? If the once per turn clause wasn’t in the 24 rules, that could be a double or even triple play damage run, ( should not have to go into details on how that would even be possible without the OPT clause, but a monk stun locking a creature in place while moonbeam is used like a cheese grater combo sounds fun) .
2014 5e rules and the timing was no different , if you stared in the AoE or if the AoE was entered into, regardless of entry method, ( even if the method of entry or having to start the turn inside the AoE was having it cast directly on the creature’s space or it having been moved onto the creature’s space) then the damage was applied once per turn, specifically at the beginning of the creature’s turn, and ending in the AoE in 14 5e rules was already taken care of by way of you got that damage at the start of the turn.
TL;DR in a nutshell all they did for 24 was rephrase the wording of Moonbeam so that functionally it does the same thing as it did in 2014 5e, they just had to explicitly state the damage is a once per turn effect in the way they wrote the 2024 spell version.
You’re completely wrong and I don’t know how to explain it any other way.
Post #3 and 4 both contain the quote from the Sage Advice Compendium (which is an official explanation unlike the sage advice on twitter) that also explains you are wrong.
2014 casting the spell onto a creatures space DOES NOT count as them entering the space on a turn.
And 2024 does absolutely nothing on the start of a creatures turn if they are in the area. Only if they end their turn in it.
Sage Advice Compendium is nothing more than a person’s opinion on what they feel the intention is of the rules, and are not what the actual rules state. It’s easy to go back and review what had been written, and adjust the fact that a significant amount of SAC is a compiled document of sage advice tweets that were published by WotC. so if sage advice has been known to be wrong on rulings, and parts of SAC have been proven to be wrong just as SA has been proven wrong, then by that logic the sole belief that others , like yourself, who think those rulings are the only way to interpret the rules, those opinions are the only way to play the game, and anyone who thinks otherwise are incorrect are the ones who do not know what they are talking about, are the people that are not correct.
Moonbeam in 2024 and 2014 are the same, and the difference is nothing more than word play.
From the SAC:
Official Rulings Official rulings on how to interpret rules are made here in the Sage Advice Compendium. A Dungeon Master adjudi- cates the game and determines whether to use an official ruling in play. The DM always has the final say on rules questions. The public statements of the D&D team, or anyone else at Wizards of the Coast, are not official rulings; they are advice. The tweets of Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECraw- ford), the game’s principal rules designer, are sometimes a preview of rulings that appear here.
They are official rulings and a DM can follow them or not
I provided examples of how the two versions of Moonbeam differ but you choose to ignore it.
And at this point I think you are just trolling so I’m done here.
I am really confused by what FutureSightRunner is saying. Are you saying that you'd have treated wall of fire and moonbeam the same in the 2014 rules? I.e. you'd make a creature starting its turn in both take damage from both even if the creature moved out of the wall of fire before the end of its turn?
Spells really do tell you exactly when the damage occurs. If damage occurs to a creature between its turns on another creature's turn, that really is when that damage occurs: on that other creature's turn. If it occurs at the beginning of a turn, that's when it occurs. If it occurs at the end of the turn, that's when the damage is applied. if it happens to occur when the spell is first cast, that's really when it happens (even if that isn't on the turn of the creature taking the damage). If it happens when an area is moved or when a creature moves into an area, again, I think you can see the pattern: that's when it occurs.
what if in the 2014 version therazu has a companion that pushes Therazu out of the moonbeam before their turn
Worst yet what if Therazu is last in initiative?
what if in your 2014 example Therazu a devil misty steps or dimension doors out of the AoE before their turn, possibly using either a reaction or a boon after their turn has ended?
Initiative order: Meiko Hurran Garglamesh <- enemy devil friend of Therazu Daille Therazu <- enemy devil, has a legendary action / reaction to misty step
2014: Meiko casts Moonbeam on Therazu on their turn. No damage is dealt. Hurran hits Therazu with their greatsword, Therazu misty steps away out of the Moonbeam Garglamesh attacks Hurran Daille fire arrows at Therazu Therazu takes no damage as he is not in the moonbeam on his turn, casts Fireball on the whole party. Meiko moves the Moonbeam onto Garglamesh. Hurran strikes Garglamesh with his greatsword Garglamesh takes Moonbeam damage at the start of his turn, then attack Hurran and moves out of the Moonbeam. Daille shoots arrows into Therazu Therazu throws another Fireball on the party Meiko casts Mass Cure Wounds Hurran shoves Garglamesh into the Moonbeam dealing damage to him immediately. Garglamesh takes Moonbeam damage at the start of his turn. Dallie shoots arrows at Garglamesh killing him. Therazu moves up to Hurran and hits him with the flaming greatsword Meiko moves Moonbeam on to Therazu, who immediately legendary action teleports away. ... etc... etc... (Moonbeam cannot damage Therazu unless he gets shoved into it.) End of Combat
2024: Meiko casts Moonbeam on Therazu on their turn. Therazu immediately takes Moonbeam damage. Hurran hits Therazu with their greatsword, Therazu misty steps away out of the Moonbeam Garglamesh attacks Hurran Daille fire arrows at Therazu Therazu takes no damage as he is not in the moonbeam on his turn, casts Fireball on the whole party. Meiko moves the Moonbeam in an 60ft arc first onto Therazu then onto Garglamesh and leaves it just behind Garglamesh. Both Garglamesh and Therazu take damage from Moonbeam. Hurran shoves Garglamesh into the Moonbeam. Garglamesh takes Moonbeam damage immediately. Garglamesh attacks Hurran and moves out of the Moonbeam. Daille shoots arrows into Therazu Therazu throws another Fireball on the party Meiko casts Mass Cure Wounds Hurran attacks Garglamesh with his greatsword. Garglamesh attack Hurran Dallie shoots arrows at Garglamesh killing him. Therazu moves up to Hurran and hits him with the flaming greatsword Meiko moves Moonbeam on to Therazu, who immediately takes Moonbeam damage. ... etc... etc... (Moonbeam reliable deals damage to Therazu at least 1/round) End of Combat
There are a couple of new spells that allow you to move the spell with an action.
Does the spell actually move from point A to point B or does it dissapear and reapear
With the new rules of when creatures take damage there is an import distinction between those 2
"A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space "
For example i cast moonbeam on a enemy A. With a magic action on later turns i want to move the moonbeam 60 feet to enemy C. If there is a enemy B between them does B need to make the save too?
I'd say yes, B needs to make the save for the 2024 Moonbeam.
If what we had in the Sage Advice Compendium for the 2014 rules about Areas of Effect was accepted before (see below), I understand that this has now changed, and it should follow what the spell description says:
"... A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there. A creature makes this save only once per turn."
(related post in DnD Beyond: 2024 Spirit Guardians)
--- 2014 Sage Advice Compendium (emphasis mine) ---
@FutureSightRunner the text from SAC refers to the 2014 version of the spell. I edited my answer to make that clear.
In my opinion, with the 2024 version of the spell, B does get damaged, yes.
I would say B is not affected. Can you zigzag it around the battlefield up to 60 feet to another point to get as many enemies as you can? Is it only a straight line? Or even a circle for it to end up back where it started from?
I don’t think that’s the intention, but would be a DM call and would like clarification for the movement. And a different situation compared to Spirit Guardians as the PC is moving and the effect is emanating from them.
I can see it going both ways. And it didn’t matter for the 2014 version of Moonbeam so I hadn’t thought much about if it disappeared and reappeared or if it passed through creature spaces along the way.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
This spell got a pretty big buff with the new rules -- as written, enemy B is definitely affected. But keep in mind that beyond the first turn of this spell being active this will be the main method for affecting creatures since some of the timing has changed -- a creature is affected when it "ends its turn there" instead of "starts its turn there".
Still, it now seems like a very powerful 2nd level spell and could heavily incentivize attempts to break that spellcaster's concentration when this effect is seen entering the battlefield.
On a grid, on the initial turn this AoE would affect 4 squares. On subsequent turns, if moved in a straight line along a grid line, it could affect 24 squares without using a spell slot, but it does require concentration and uses up an action.
In comparison, the 3rd level Fireball spell can affect 52 squares and affected squares suffer about twice as much damage. So, although it's been buffed, the new Moonbeam might not be as overpowered as it appears to be at first glance.
As for zigzagging shenanigans -- in the 2014 DMG we had this rule for spherical AoE regions: " If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square." The question is -- does that come into play when interpreting the phrase "when the spell's area moves into its space"? So, can we move a moonbeam such that it just barely clips a small corner of a creature's space on the way through, or do we enforce the rule for how much of the space must be affected by an AoE in order to be considered to be "included" within the AoE's area?
I think that it's reasonable to enforce the fact that this AoE has to cover at least half of a square at some point in order to affect that square, and this should significantly reduce how many squares can be affected when moving the moonbeam.
Regarding grid play, it's pretty easy to handle in practice. Since a 5t radius circle fits inside a 10x10 square you fix the center of Moonbeam on an intersection on the grid, and it can only move in 5ft increments to other intersections. Easy to visualize, and prevents any shenanigans about inching the circle around the board.
This is actually the exact thing that has explicitly changed for spells such as Moonbeam.
Moonbeam 2014: "When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there . . ."
Moonbeam 2024: "A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there.
So, no. In 2024 the creature is not affected by starting its turn in the area. This was a deliberate design change.
The area is there but the creature doesn’t take damage at the start of their turn. Only the end or when it enters the area or the area enters its square. But if you move the area on the creature it can take damage but once its turn comes they can live out of it with no additional damage taken.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
It’s not the same.
In 2014 if I cast the spell on a creature’s space, nothing happened. Only if they started their turn in the area (so if somehow they got knocked out of the area before the start of their turn, they made no save). Or if the creature got moved into the area (like from a shove) they had to save (similar to 2024)
In 2024, at the time of casting the creature will have to save (different than 2014). And if they got knocked into or moved into the area, they have to save (like in 2014). But starting their turn in the area does nothing (different than 2014). Or if the area is moved into the creature’s space they have to save.
In 2014 if the creature was outside the area and got knocked into it (save) and then started their turn in the area (save) they would have to save twice. In 2024 that doesn’t happen.
Similar but the timing is different
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I already shared my point of view on when a creature is affected in the thread I posted earlier about Spirit Guardians. I explained the difference there, but the same applies to similar spells with the same wording (for example, Moonbeam, Conjure Animals or Cloudkill):
If in the 2014 PHB this only meant what was clarified in the Sage Advice Compendium ("Does moonbeam deal damage when you cast it? What about when its effect moves onto a creature?"), then...
Clearly, it's not the same. To be more clear, the opposite is also true now in 2024: if you move the area into the creature's space, the creature must make a Wisdom saving throw.
Regarding Moonbeam and whether the beam moves across the space to a new point or just teleports, we have the following description in Cloud of Daggers:
In comparison, Moonbeam works as follows:
Given the two different descriptions, I think it's further proof that Moonbeam moves rather than teleports.
If a Cleric can zigzag run around the battlefield hitting all kinds of enemies with their Spiritual Guardians then why shouldn't a Druid be able to do the same thing with their Moonbeam? It is unambiguous that "when the spell area enters a creature's space" would include the area of the Spiritual Guardians moving in response to the Cleric moving or being moved in any pattern they like. This includes the Cleric moving 120 ft per turn by riding a horse. So it's not going to be any more game breaking (in fact it is substantially less powerful) for Moonbeam to also be able to hit many creatures by being moved 60 ft as an Action.
You’re completely wrong and I don’t know how to explain it any other way.
Post #3 and 4 both contain the quote from the Sage Advice Compendium (which is an official explanation unlike the sage advice on twitter) that also explains you are wrong.
2014 casting the spell onto a creatures space DOES NOT count as them entering the space on a turn.
And 2024 does absolutely nothing on the start of a creatures turn if they are in the area. Only if they end their turn in it.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Thanks for the answers everybody!
This is incorrect. You really should stop saying this over and over again as the differences have been quoted and explained to you several times now.
2014 Moonbeam:
2024 Moonbeam:
Mechanically, these two versions of the spell are dramatically different. Repeatedly claiming that they work the same way has no rules support. Spells do what they say, and these two versions of the spell say different things.
Sorry I'm really confused what you are arguing so since you seem to have trouble understanding here's an example:
Initiative order:
Therazu <- enemy devil
Meiko
Hurran
Daille
2014:
Therazu casts Fireball on the whole party.
Meiko casts Moonbeam on Therazu on their turn. No damage is dealt.
Hurran & Daille hit Terazu with their greatsword & their arrows on their turns dealing damage to him
Therazu takes Moonbeam damage at the start of his turn, and casts Fireball on the whole party then moves out of the Moonbeam.
Meiko casts Mass Cure Wounds on his turn
Hurran moves and Shoves Therazu into the Moonbeam - Therazu makes takes damage from Moonbeam immediately.
Daille shoots arrows into Therazu
Therazu takes damage from Moonbeam again at the start of their turn, hits Hurran with a flaming greatsword, then teleports 30 ft away.
Meiko moves Moonbeam on to Therazu
Hurran throws a Javelin into Therazu killing him
End of Combat
2024:
Therazu casts Fireball on the whole party.
Meiko casts Moonbeam on Therazu on their turn, Therazu takes Moonbeam damage immediately
Hurran & Daille hit Terazu with their greatsword & their arrows on their turns dealing damage to him
Therazu casts Fireball on the whole party then moves out of the Moonbeam.
Meiko casts Mass Cure Wounds on his turn
Hurran moves and shoves Therazu into the Moonbeam - Therazu makes takes damage from Moonbeam immediately.
Daille shoots arrows into Therazu
Therazu hits Hurran with a flaming greatsword, then teleports 30 ft away.
Meiko moves Moonbeam on to Therazu, Therazu takes Moonbeam immediately.
Hurran throws a Javelin into Therazu killing him.
End of Combat
What in the world is giving you the impression that damage in this game is taken only at certain times such as at the start or end of that creature's turn?
The general rules for damage do not say anything like that. In general, a creature takes damage whenever the rule or feature or effect in question says that it takes damage. Typically this will occur immediately after a specific event happens that causes damage.
For example, if I attack a goblin with my sword on my turn, and I hit the goblin with that attack, then that goblin immediately takes damage while it is still my turn. You do not wait until the goblin's turn to resolve this damage. It happens immediately.
Both versions of the moonbeam spell specify exactly when the damage is dealt. It happens immediately after the saving throw is resolved. The saving throw is called for at very specific times as indicated by the spell description. These specific times are different for the two versions of the spell.
In fact, in 2014 if Moonbeam was cast at a location which created an AoE that included a creature and that creature was pushed out of that area before his turn started then that creature would not be damaged by the spell. The creature did not enter the AoE. Instead, the AoE was actively placed such that the creature was within the area. Sage Advice confirmed that these were meant to be two different things, and in fact they are two different things. Saying that they "should have" been damaged is neither here nor there -- according to the spell description the spell did not work that way and therefore, according to the description, the creature actually should not have been damaged. And therefore, it was not damaged in that scenario.
No, that's incorrect. In 2014, the creature was damaged at the start of his turn. So, on his turn, he takes damage and then walks out of the AoE. However, he was NOT damaged upon the casting of the spell.
No, that's incorrect. That's NOT what that means. The creature enters the area means the creature enters the area -- NOT the creature is in the area. The fact that this distinction was intended is confirmed by Sage Advice.
Are you suggesting that every time the spellcaster moves the beam he should be guaranteed to damage the creature twice? That doesn't make much sense.
No.
In 2014 you move the beam onto the creature. Then, when that creature's turn rolls around that creature takes damage at the start of its turn.
In 2024, you move the beam onto the creature, which damages that creature immediately (on the spellcaster's turn). Then, when that creature's turn rolls around that creature has an opportunity to move out of the area -- otherwise, it will be damaged again at the end of its turn.
Completely different mechanic.
From the SAC:
They are official rulings and a DM can follow them or not
I provided examples of how the two versions of Moonbeam differ but you choose to ignore it.
And at this point I think you are just trolling so I’m done here.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I am really confused by what FutureSightRunner is saying. Are you saying that you'd have treated wall of fire and moonbeam the same in the 2014 rules? I.e. you'd make a creature starting its turn in both take damage from both even if the creature moved out of the wall of fire before the end of its turn?
Spells really do tell you exactly when the damage occurs. If damage occurs to a creature between its turns on another creature's turn, that really is when that damage occurs: on that other creature's turn. If it occurs at the beginning of a turn, that's when it occurs. If it occurs at the end of the turn, that's when the damage is applied. if it happens to occur when the spell is first cast, that's really when it happens (even if that isn't on the turn of the creature taking the damage). If it happens when an area is moved or when a creature moves into an area, again, I think you can see the pattern: that's when it occurs.
Initiative order:
Meiko
Hurran
Garglamesh <- enemy devil friend of Therazu
Daille
Therazu <- enemy devil, has a legendary action / reaction to misty step
2014:
Meiko casts Moonbeam on Therazu on their turn. No damage is dealt.
Hurran hits Therazu with their greatsword, Therazu misty steps away out of the Moonbeam
Garglamesh attacks Hurran
Daille fire arrows at Therazu
Therazu takes no damage as he is not in the moonbeam on his turn, casts Fireball on the whole party.
Meiko moves the Moonbeam onto Garglamesh.
Hurran strikes Garglamesh with his greatsword
Garglamesh takes Moonbeam damage at the start of his turn, then attack Hurran and moves out of the Moonbeam.
Daille shoots arrows into Therazu
Therazu throws another Fireball on the party
Meiko casts Mass Cure Wounds
Hurran shoves Garglamesh into the Moonbeam dealing damage to him immediately.
Garglamesh takes Moonbeam damage at the start of his turn.
Dallie shoots arrows at Garglamesh killing him.
Therazu moves up to Hurran and hits him with the flaming greatsword
Meiko moves Moonbeam on to Therazu, who immediately legendary action teleports away.
... etc... etc... (Moonbeam cannot damage Therazu unless he gets shoved into it.)
End of Combat
2024:
Meiko casts Moonbeam on Therazu on their turn. Therazu immediately takes Moonbeam damage.
Hurran hits Therazu with their greatsword, Therazu misty steps away out of the Moonbeam
Garglamesh attacks Hurran
Daille fire arrows at Therazu
Therazu takes no damage as he is not in the moonbeam on his turn, casts Fireball on the whole party.
Meiko moves the Moonbeam in an 60ft arc first onto Therazu then onto Garglamesh and leaves it just behind Garglamesh. Both Garglamesh and Therazu take damage from Moonbeam.
Hurran shoves Garglamesh into the Moonbeam. Garglamesh takes Moonbeam damage immediately.
Garglamesh attacks Hurran and moves out of the Moonbeam.
Daille shoots arrows into Therazu
Therazu throws another Fireball on the party
Meiko casts Mass Cure Wounds
Hurran attacks Garglamesh with his greatsword.
Garglamesh attack Hurran
Dallie shoots arrows at Garglamesh killing him.
Therazu moves up to Hurran and hits him with the flaming greatsword
Meiko moves Moonbeam on to Therazu, who immediately takes Moonbeam damage.
... etc... etc... (Moonbeam reliable deals damage to Therazu at least 1/round)
End of Combat