The 9th level Shapechange spell specifies that when you transform into a creature, it must be an average example of that creature without class levels or the spell casting feature. I was wondering if this outright prevents transforming into a creature that would normally have the spellcasting feature, or if you can transform into that form but when you do you simply do not gain the spell casting feature that the form would normally have. As an example, I could see a 20th level druid wanting to use the Shapechange spell to transform into one of the new CR 20 animal lord forms from the 2025 Monster Manual. All these forms have the spell casting feature, but it's mainly flavor spells that they get with it. Could that druid take an animal lord form without just without the added spellcasting, or does the fact that the animal lords all have spell casting prevent that outright?
The 9th level Shapechange spell specifies that when you transform into a creature, it must be an average example of that creature without class levels or the spell casting feature. I was wondering if this outright prevents transforming into a creature that would normally have the spellcasting feature, or if you can transform into that form but when you do you simply do not gain the spell casting feature that the form would normally have. As an example, I could see a 20th level druid wanting to use the Shapechange spell to transform into one of the new CR 20 animal lord forms from the 2025 Monster Manual. All these forms have the spell casting feature, but it's mainly flavor spells that they get with it. Could that druid take an animal lord form without just without the added spellcasting, or does the fact that the animal lords all have spell casting prevent that outright?
My reading is that you can transform into a form that normally has spellcasting, but you don't gain that spellcasting ability.
It's also worth pointing out that the 2024 version of this spell removed that sentence entirely, and explicitly says that you retain your own Spellcasting feature if you have it.
Using the 2024 Shapechange spell, you could transform into a Mage, and you'd keep both your spell and the Mage's, am I right?
Yeah, I'm not sure that really makes sense thematically, but it does seem to be what it's saying. Unless there's some general rule that you can't have two of the same feature or something like that?
Using the 2024 Shapechange spell, you could transform into a Mage, and you'd keep both your spell and the Mage's, am I right?
Yeah, I'm not sure that really makes sense thematically, but it does seem to be what it's saying. Unless there's some general rule that you can't have two of the same feature or something like that?
It's a good question. The Combining Game Effects rule from the 2014 DMG isn't in the 2024 DMG. If that could be one of the rules to take into account.
Maybe the 2025 Monster Manual will include some rule about it.
I’d like to add this tweet from the Dev because it's true that Spellcasting and Innate Spellcasting are different things (in the 2014 MM). So, if we agree with this advice, I believe you'll keep the Innate Spellcasting trait from the creature.
@DackeStaffan When the shapechange spell says you don't get Spellcasting, does that include Innate Spellcasting? @JeremyECrawford Spellcasting and Innate Spellcasting are two different traits.
Using the 2024 Shapechange spell, you could transform into a Mage, and you'd keep both your spell and the Mage's, am I right?
Yeah, I'm not sure that really makes sense thematically, but it does seem to be what it's saying. Unless there's some general rule that you can't have two of the same feature or something like that?
It's a good question. The Combining Game Effects rule from the 2014 DMG isn't in the 2024 DMG. If that could be one of the rules to take into account.
RAW i believe you should. I don't know if it really changes anything for the purposes of Combining Game Effects but one you'd have one Spellcasting has an Action and the other a Class Feature.
While the rule didn't appear to be revised in 2024 Dungeon Master Guide, the Player's Handbook & Basic Rules have Combining Spell Effects a revision though.
Using the 2024 Shapechange spell, you could transform into a Mage, and you'd keep both your spell and the Mage's, am I right?
Yeah, I'm not sure that really makes sense thematically, but it does seem to be what it's saying. Unless there's some general rule that you can't have two of the same feature or something like that?
It's a good question. The Combining Game Effects rule from the 2014 DMG isn't in the 2024 DMG. If that could be one of the rules to take into account.
RAW i believe you should. I don't know if it really changes anything for the purposes of Combining Game Effects but one you'd have one Spellcasting has an Action and the other a Class Feature.
While the rule didn't appear to be revised in 2024 Dungeon Master Guide, the Player's Handbook & Basic Rules have Combining Spell Effects a revision though.
I agree as well.
TBH, I mentioned "Combining Game Effects" but just in case remotely could be used in some way in this interaction.
I should be more careful with my own thoughts / texts sometimes 😅
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The 9th level Shapechange spell specifies that when you transform into a creature, it must be an average example of that creature without class levels or the spell casting feature. I was wondering if this outright prevents transforming into a creature that would normally have the spellcasting feature, or if you can transform into that form but when you do you simply do not gain the spell casting feature that the form would normally have. As an example, I could see a 20th level druid wanting to use the Shapechange spell to transform into one of the new CR 20 animal lord forms from the 2025 Monster Manual. All these forms have the spell casting feature, but it's mainly flavor spells that they get with it. Could that druid take an animal lord form without just without the added spellcasting, or does the fact that the animal lords all have spell casting prevent that outright?
My reading is that you can transform into a form that normally has spellcasting, but you don't gain that spellcasting ability.
It's also worth pointing out that the 2024 version of this spell removed that sentence entirely, and explicitly says that you retain your own Spellcasting feature if you have it.
pronouns: he/she/they
Using the 2024 Shapechange spell, you could transform into a Mage, and you'd keep both your spell and the Mage's, am I right?
Yeah, I'm not sure that really makes sense thematically, but it does seem to be what it's saying. Unless there's some general rule that you can't have two of the same feature or something like that?
pronouns: he/she/they
It's a good question. The Combining Game Effects rule from the 2014 DMG isn't in the 2024 DMG. If that could be one of the rules to take into account.
Maybe the 2025 Monster Manual will include some rule about it.
I’d like to add this tweet from the Dev because it's true that Spellcasting and Innate Spellcasting are different things (in the 2014 MM). So, if we agree with this advice, I believe you'll keep the Innate Spellcasting trait from the creature.
RAW i believe you should. I don't know if it really changes anything for the purposes of Combining Game Effects but one you'd have one Spellcasting has an Action and the other a Class Feature.
While the rule didn't appear to be revised in 2024 Dungeon Master Guide, the Player's Handbook & Basic Rules have Combining Spell Effects a revision though.
I agree as well.
TBH, I mentioned "Combining Game Effects" but just in case remotely could be used in some way in this interaction.
I should be more careful with my own thoughts / texts sometimes 😅