Quick question to you all. How would you rule something like this?
With the Psychic Spells feature Warlocks get at level 3 (Enchantment / Illusion spells no longer require verbal or somatic components), could a Warlock, in theory, cast a damaging spell while doing something completely ordinary and not bring suspicion to themselves? Something that does psychic damage has no way to discern the source or direction like a bolt or arrow would, and the Warlock in question isn't really doing anything physically to give themselves away. They could just be, like, sitting in a chair...
I'm just trying to decide how it should proceed in a game.
- If I were to let this happen (Victim has no idea who attacked them), I'd assume the victim would start a scene and search for the caster, but nothing the Warlock did or would ever do would make them the obvious culprit. So they'd just.. get away with it..? - If I say that combat begins and you roll initiative, how do I logically play the victim of the attack now? How do they know what to attack? - If I say the victim of the attack knows it was the Warlock, it sounds incredibly un-fun for the Warlock, as if it was a bad ruling from a rookie DM or something.
I think the following rule is important for the scenario you're describing.
Awareness of Being Targeted. Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature doesn’t know it was targeted by the spell. An effect like lightning is obvious, but a more subtle effect, such as an attempt to read thoughts, goes unnoticed unless a spell’s description says otherwise.
So for example:
Suggestion will still be noticed, even when using Psychic Spells, because the effect includes "You suggest a course of activity [...] to one creature [...] that can hear and understand you."
Dissonant Whispers should go unnoticed by the target since it doesn't have any visual or obvious effect (EDIT: well, a headache :D)
The Psychic Spells feature is similar to the Sorcerer's Subtle Spell feature, so let me add here this advice from Xanathar's Guide to Everything:
Perceiving a Caster at Work
Many spells create obvious effects: explosions of fire, walls of ice, teleportation, and the like. Other spells, such as charm person, display no visible, audible, or otherwise perceptible sign of their effects, and could easily go unnoticed by someone unaffected by them. As noted in the Player's Handbook, you normally don't know that a spell has been cast unless the spell produces a noticeable effect.
But what about the act of casting a spell? Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence? To be perceptible, the casting of a spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component. The form of a material component doesn't matter for the purposes of perception, whether it's an object specified in the spell's description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus.
If the need for a spell's components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer's Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it's normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence.
I think the following rule is important for the scenario you're describing.
Awareness of Being Targeted. Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature doesn’t know it was targeted by the spell. An effect like lightning is obvious, but a more subtle effect, such as an attempt to read thoughts, goes unnoticed unless a spell’s description says otherwise.
So for example:
Suggestion will still be noticed, even when using Psychic Spells, because the effect includes "You suggest a course of activity [...] to one creature [...] that can hear and understand you."
Dissonant Whispers should go unnoticed by the target since it doesn't have any visual or obvious effect (EDIT: well, a headache :D)
The Psychic Spells feature is similar to the Sorcerer's Subtle Spell feature, so let me add here this advice from Xanathar's Guide to Everything:
Perceiving a Caster at Work
Many spells create obvious effects: explosions of fire, walls of ice, teleportation, and the like. Other spells, such as charm person, display no visible, audible, or otherwise perceptible sign of their effects, and could easily go unnoticed by someone unaffected by them. As noted in the Player's Handbook, you normally don't know that a spell has been cast unless the spell produces a noticeable effect.
But what about the act of casting a spell? Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence? To be perceptible, the casting of a spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component. The form of a material component doesn't matter for the purposes of perception, whether it's an object specified in the spell's description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus.
If the need for a spell's components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer's Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it's normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence.
That's kinda how I see it going.
My only concern is in cases like Dissonant Whispers, where it does damage and would also be unnoticed.
Do I let the player spam the spell as much as they want with 0 repercussions? Feels like that's how it should go, but it just feels... wrong..?
I would argue that taking damage is a perceptible effect. You will notice that you are hurt. Dissonant whispers gets even stranger, as the target is required to run away from the caster, so they have to know who the caster is to do that. And in that case, I’d also argue that running is perceptible. You certainly know if you are running.
I would argue that taking damage is a perceptible effect. You will notice that you are hurt. Dissonant whispers gets even stranger, as the target is required to run away from the caster, so they have to know who the caster is to do that. And in that case, I’d also argue that running is perceptible. You certainly know if you are running.
Yes, when I said noticed/unnoticed I meant whether the target can identify the caster, since the caster isn't doing anything noticeable (like gestures or speaking) when using Psychic Spells with Dissonant Whispers.
Another example, not involving damage, could be Telekinesis. It's V, S and thanks to Psychic Spells, the warlock wouldn't necessarily need to move their hands or say anything to achieve the spell's effect. But it would be cooler to mimic Charles Xavier's style :D
Notably, the Suggestion spell doesn’t, in fact, say that you have to speak. The Warlock could use the Awakened Mind feature to Bonus Action establish telepathy between himself and the creature and then plant the Suggestion through telepathic conversation only. It would be very much in the flavor of class to do that.
Indeed. I can see stealthily using Suggestion and getting away with it just fine. Same thing with using Awakened Mind to speak Infernal into someone's head to make them think they're going mad. They don't have to understand you, but if you want them to, you have to use a language you both understand.
As for the damaging spells and such again, I guess I would allow it to continue out of initiative. Just, doing damage to someone and not immediately rolling for initiative feels so strange, haha.
I would argue that taking damage is a perceptible effect. You will notice that you are hurt. Dissonant whispers gets even stranger, as the target is required to run away from the caster, so they have to know who the caster is to do that. And in that case, I’d also argue that running is perceptible. You certainly know if you are running.
Yes, when I said noticed/unnoticed I meant whether the target can identify the caster, since the caster isn't doing anything noticeable (like gestures or speaking) when using Psychic Spells with Dissonant Whispers.
Another example, not involving damage, could be Telekinesis. It's V, S and thanks to Psychic Spells, the warlock wouldn't necessarily need to move their hands or say anything to achieve the spell's effect. But it would be cooler to mimic Charles Xavier's style :D
I get that, but in particular in the case of dissonant whispers, how can you move away from the caster without knowing who the caster is? I guess a DM could just say, you feel compelled to go whichever direction.
But I’d also rule, with damaging spells (or others with a perceptible effect), the target knows who did it. Otherwise it could really get out of hand. And this build would turn into some super-assassin. It still has the advantage of getting in that first action before the bad guys know what’s happening. And that it can’t be counterspelled. And that none of the bad guy’s allies know what’s happening. And it’s great for out of combat, like the read thoughts example.
Finally, there’s the old, how will the PCs like it if it happens to them? Because these kinds of rulings must go in both directions. They’re walking down the street and just take psychic damage. No idea where it came from.
I feel like Dissonant Whispers is an exemption, only because they're running in fear from you. If another spell did damage that didn't have that sort of 'tell', I'm leaning towards 'you do damage, but now X happens and everyone is on high alert' etc.. Like it was said earlier, you only have so many spell slots, so it's not like you can 100 to 0 a boss this way, eventually they'd hide or you run out of resources.
I would argue that taking damage is a perceptible effect. You will notice that you are hurt. Dissonant whispers gets even stranger, as the target is required to run away from the caster, so they have to know who the caster is to do that. And in that case, I’d also argue that running is perceptible. You certainly know if you are running.
Yes, when I said noticed/unnoticed I meant whether the target can identify the caster, since the caster isn't doing anything noticeable (like gestures or speaking) when using Psychic Spells with Dissonant Whispers.
Another example, not involving damage, could be Telekinesis. It's V, S and thanks to Psychic Spells, the warlock wouldn't necessarily need to move their hands or say anything to achieve the spell's effect. But it would be cooler to mimic Charles Xavier's style :D
I get that, but in particular in the case of dissonant whispers, how can you move away from the caster without knowing who the caster is? I guess a DM could just say, you feel compelled to go whichever direction.
Oh, I get it you now.
I think ruling that way could be appropriate in this specific case.
But I’d also rule, with damaging spells (or others with a perceptible effect), the target knows who did it. Otherwise it could really get out of hand. And this build would turn into some super-assassin. It still has the advantage of getting in that first action before the bad guys know what’s happening. And that it can’t be counterspelled. And that none of the bad guy’s allies know what’s happening. And it’s great for out of combat, like the read thoughts example.
Finally, there’s the old, how will the PCs like it if it happens to them? Because these kinds of rulings must go in both directions. They’re walking down the street and just take psychic damage. No idea where it came from.
Yeah. My POV is just that I think it's worth finding ways to make this feature (or Subtle Spell) fun and interesting for the players. Even if the enemies can do the same :D
I feel like Dissonant Whispers is an exemption, only because they're running in fear from you. If another spell did damage that didn't have that sort of 'tell', I'm leaning towards 'you do damage, but now X happens and everyone is on high alert' etc.. Like it was said earlier, you only have so many spell slots, so it's not like you can 100 to 0 a boss this way, eventually they'd hide or you run out of resources.
That’s true. But it’s also the kind of thing where, if this can happen in the world, why doesn’t it happen more? I always say that PCs are meant to be exceptional, but it really only takes one NPC who could do it. Then they could be going around murdering pretty much anyone without class levels — the king, the duke, the newborn princess. Which as I’m saying it could make for a really good story hook of hunting down this mystery assassin.
I feel like Dissonant Whispers is an exemption, only because they're running in fear from you. If another spell did damage that didn't have that sort of 'tell', I'm leaning towards 'you do damage, but now X happens and everyone is on high alert' etc.. Like it was said earlier, you only have so many spell slots, so it's not like you can 100 to 0 a boss this way, eventually they'd hide or you run out of resources.
That’s true. But it’s also the kind of thing where, if this can happen in the world, why doesn’t it happen more? I always say that PCs are meant to be exceptional, but it really only takes one NPC who could do it. Then they could be going around murdering pretty much anyone without class levels — the king, the duke, the newborn princess. Which as I’m saying it could make for a really good story hook of hunting down this mystery assassin.
The worlds of D&D rarely hold up well when you start thinking about them like this.
In-world, it's a combination of several things:
People with power and influence have retainers with class levels around. There's also usually magic that's not available to PCs that does things like "detect somebody casting spells in the throne room".
Most people, even if they had the power to silently kill people, wouldn't. Murdering people without a qualm requires a very specific mindset.
The people who can do it still can't do it casually. People aren't stupid. Even ignoring the rich and powerful and their defenses, if a stranger comes into town and the local mayor suddenly drops dead, that stranger probably isn't getting away.
Detect magic is a first level spell so I don't have that much concern with people that matter to the story not being able to figure out attacks, though that is assuming you think casting the spell is a magical effect and not just what happens to the target. I do see the tossing of the spell and the effect as both magical effects. Sure random NPC # 5 might not have access to it, but the range of ways the players can subtly kill random NPC #5 is legion. And even if you are not chanting and gesturing, insight or maybe spot checks to find people overly interested in you could help as well though the check might be difficult.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Quick question to you all. How would you rule something like this?
With the Psychic Spells feature Warlocks get at level 3 (Enchantment / Illusion spells no longer require verbal or somatic components), could a Warlock, in theory, cast a damaging spell while doing something completely ordinary and not bring suspicion to themselves? Something that does psychic damage has no way to discern the source or direction like a bolt or arrow would, and the Warlock in question isn't really doing anything physically to give themselves away. They could just be, like, sitting in a chair...
I'm just trying to decide how it should proceed in a game.
- If I were to let this happen (Victim has no idea who attacked them), I'd assume the victim would start a scene and search for the caster, but nothing the Warlock did or would ever do would make them the obvious culprit. So they'd just.. get away with it..?
- If I say that combat begins and you roll initiative, how do I logically play the victim of the attack now? How do they know what to attack?
- If I say the victim of the attack knows it was the Warlock, it sounds incredibly un-fun for the Warlock, as if it was a bad ruling from a rookie DM or something.
DM : The Shade Over Runewarren | Vaelen Gravesong : Shadow of Eternal Night
"Fear is the weight we carry, love is the treasure we bury."
I think the following rule is important for the scenario you're describing.
So for example:
The Psychic Spells feature is similar to the Sorcerer's Subtle Spell feature, so let me add here this advice from Xanathar's Guide to Everything:
That's kinda how I see it going.
My only concern is in cases like Dissonant Whispers, where it does damage and would also be unnoticed.
Do I let the player spam the spell as much as they want with 0 repercussions? Feels like that's how it should go, but it just feels... wrong..?
DM : The Shade Over Runewarren | Vaelen Gravesong : Shadow of Eternal Night
"Fear is the weight we carry, love is the treasure we bury."
Well... as a I DM I'd say it depends on the situation.
You and I in the same room, and you feel your head spinning. Probably, you'd start asking questions :D
But in a crowded place, like a plaza in a city, why not? You're using your feature wisely.
In any case, it's not infinite since the player will be expending spell slots.
I would argue that taking damage is a perceptible effect. You will notice that you are hurt.
Dissonant whispers gets even stranger, as the target is required to run away from the caster, so they have to know who the caster is to do that. And in that case, I’d also argue that running is perceptible. You certainly know if you are running.
Yes, when I said noticed/unnoticed I meant whether the target can identify the caster, since the caster isn't doing anything noticeable (like gestures or speaking) when using Psychic Spells with Dissonant Whispers.
Another example, not involving damage, could be Telekinesis. It's V, S and thanks to Psychic Spells, the warlock wouldn't necessarily need to move their hands or say anything to achieve the spell's effect. But it would be cooler to mimic Charles Xavier's style :D
Notably, the Suggestion spell doesn’t, in fact, say that you have to speak. The Warlock could use the Awakened Mind feature to Bonus Action establish telepathy between himself and the creature and then plant the Suggestion through telepathic conversation only. It would be very much in the flavor of class to do that.
Indeed. I can see stealthily using Suggestion and getting away with it just fine. Same thing with using Awakened Mind to speak Infernal into someone's head to make them think they're going mad. They don't have to understand you, but if you want them to, you have to use a language you both understand.
As for the damaging spells and such again, I guess I would allow it to continue out of initiative. Just, doing damage to someone and not immediately rolling for initiative feels so strange, haha.
DM : The Shade Over Runewarren | Vaelen Gravesong : Shadow of Eternal Night
"Fear is the weight we carry, love is the treasure we bury."
I get that, but in particular in the case of dissonant whispers, how can you move away from the caster without knowing who the caster is? I guess a DM could just say, you feel compelled to go whichever direction.
But I’d also rule, with damaging spells (or others with a perceptible effect), the target knows who did it. Otherwise it could really get out of hand. And this build would turn into some super-assassin. It still has the advantage of getting in that first action before the bad guys know what’s happening. And that it can’t be counterspelled. And that none of the bad guy’s allies know what’s happening. And it’s great for out of combat, like the read thoughts example.
Finally, there’s the old, how will the PCs like it if it happens to them? Because these kinds of rulings must go in both directions. They’re walking down the street and just take psychic damage. No idea where it came from.
I feel like Dissonant Whispers is an exemption, only because they're running in fear from you. If another spell did damage that didn't have that sort of 'tell', I'm leaning towards 'you do damage, but now X happens and everyone is on high alert' etc.. Like it was said earlier, you only have so many spell slots, so it's not like you can 100 to 0 a boss this way, eventually they'd hide or you run out of resources.
DM : The Shade Over Runewarren | Vaelen Gravesong : Shadow of Eternal Night
"Fear is the weight we carry, love is the treasure we bury."
Oh, I get it you now.
I think ruling that way could be appropriate in this specific case.
Yeah. My POV is just that I think it's worth finding ways to make this feature (or Subtle Spell) fun and interesting for the players. Even if the enemies can do the same :D
That’s true. But it’s also the kind of thing where, if this can happen in the world, why doesn’t it happen more? I always say that PCs are meant to be exceptional, but it really only takes one NPC who could do it. Then they could be going around murdering pretty much anyone without class levels — the king, the duke, the newborn princess. Which as I’m saying it could make for a really good story hook of hunting down this mystery assassin.
The worlds of D&D rarely hold up well when you start thinking about them like this.
In-world, it's a combination of several things:
Detect magic is a first level spell so I don't have that much concern with people that matter to the story not being able to figure out attacks, though that is assuming you think casting the spell is a magical effect and not just what happens to the target. I do see the tossing of the spell and the effect as both magical effects. Sure random NPC # 5 might not have access to it, but the range of ways the players can subtly kill random NPC #5 is legion. And even if you are not chanting and gesturing, insight or maybe spot checks to find people overly interested in you could help as well though the check might be difficult.