Hi all, and sorry if it has been asked before but I could not find a thread where this is discussed using the 2024 rules.
Basically, the party enters a room where an invisible monster is waiting for them. They way I read it everybody should roll initiative (monster with advantage, PCs with disadvantage). Those PCs that rolled higher than the monster are out of luck: They can't attack it (because they can't see it) nor would it make sense for them to ready an action ("I am preparing to attack the monster I don't know is there as soon as it reappears?!"). Then the monster attacks, becomes visible again, and the PCs who rolled a lower initiative can now act normally. In this case it would seem better to roll low on initiative!
The important thing is that in the 2024 rules, Suprise only seems to give you a disadvantage on initiative rolls, it does not forbid you to act for the whole round. But I don't believe giving the monster a full action out of the initiative sequence is how it supposed to work.
I would let the PC's who beat the hidden monster in initiative ready an action, or do what ever other preparation they want for combat. Their spider sense is tingling - something bad is about to happen, even if they don't see it yet.
As the DM, you might let the monster attack first and then begin combat if that feels more fitting, even though the rules are now different compared to the 2014 ones.
Also, you can attack an Invisible creature with Disadvantage if you find it, but I’m understanding this doesn’t seem to be your scenario.
When Invisible, while you aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you, you can still be attacked withDisadvantage if the attack or effect doesn't require to see the target.
2024 Surprise specifically design to have less impact on combatants than ever before. The principle is that when combat start and Initiative is rolled for reason, everyone's aware at this point, despite not being able to see the threat.
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
When Invisible, while you aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you, you can still be attacked withDisadvantage if the attack or effect doesn't require to see the target.
Yeah but they would need to know the monster is there. I could let them roll Perception (or use Passive Perception) to notice that there is something ("their spider sense is tingling") but in general I don't think the characters should be allowed to try and act just because the players rolled initiative (agreed, this has probably more to do with proper role-play than rules).
Hi all, and sorry if it has been asked before but I could not find a thread where this is discussed using the 2024 rules. [...]
There are some threads discussing the new Hiding & Invisible condition rules. Maybe you can find something useful for your games or ruling within them:
As the DM, you might let the monster attack first and then begin combat if that feels more fitting, even though the rules are now different compared to the 2014 ones.
Also, you can attack an Invisible creature with Disadvantage if you find it, but I’m understanding this doesn’t seem to be your scenario.
I would go for something similar, I would bump the initiative of the monster for round 1 only and then use it's actual rolled initiative for all following rounds. However another consideration is that invisibility does not mean the party can not "detect" the creature, it merely means they can not see it and so party members that go first could still get the chance to roll perception, perhaps they notice foot prints, they hear the creature licking it's lips in anticipation or notice something else out of place that identifies a creature is there.
When Invisible, while you aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you, you can still be attacked withDisadvantage if the attack or effect doesn't require to see the target.
Yeah but they would need to know the monster is there. I could let them roll Perception (or use Passive Perception) to notice that there is something ("their spider sense is tingling") but in general I don't think the characters should be allowed to try and act just because the players rolled initiative (agreed, this has probably more to do with proper role-play than rules).
Yes i generally rule that surprised creatures know something there that they can't see at this point when combat starts, but don't necessarily know what it is.
If the Invisible creature also Hide, then i may remove his token from the map and have others pick a square they think the creature is to attack.
Unseen Attackers and Targets: When you make an attack roll against a target you can’t see, you have Disadvantage on the roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in the location you targeted, you miss. When a creature can’t see you, you have Advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden when you make an attack roll, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
But to have used such rules before, while it tend to feel more realistic, in practice it's more of a pain (and powerful) to handle if the ambusher doesn't attack , or if it can Hide again after attacking as a Bonus Action for example.
But if used in round 1 until the hidden creature attack amd finally reveal it's location, then i find it gives an added benefit to also be hidden as opposed to only be Invisible.
When Invisible, while you aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you, you can still be attacked withDisadvantage if the attack or effect doesn't require to see the target.
Yeah but they would need to know the monster is there. I could let them roll Perception (or use Passive Perception) to notice that there is something ("their spider sense is tingling") but in general I don't think the characters should be allowed to try and act just because the players rolled initiative (agreed, this has probably more to do with proper role-play than rules).
In 2024, they do know the monster is there as soon as combat begins, otherwise combat would not have started yet. What is supposed to be represented is that the monster makes some sort of noise when it starts it's attack sequence - e.g. an invisible spider might make a clicking noise as it walks towards the party or a hissing noise as it rears back to strike. This alerts the victim/other characters of danger and initiative is rolled to determine who acts first with those unaware of the monster before it began its attack sequence are Surprised by it thus have less chance to be able to act before the monster completes its attack sequence (i.e. takes its turn). If they do somehow manage to act first, they can attack the invisible spider with Disadvantage - effectively 'interrupting' it's attack sequence.
Alternatively, you can have an ambush monster Readying an attack for when a player character gets within range, in this case the monster immediately takes that action when triggered before initiative is even rolled.
Also, a DM who wish to ensure a invisible creature acts before surprised one can always useInitiative Scoreinstead of rolling;
15 + DEX mod
VS
05 + DEX mod
That doesn't guarantee the invisible creature acts first, since multiple player character features give bonuses to initiative - Harengon (+ proficiency), Swashbuckler Rogue (+ CHA), Gloomstalker Ranger (+WIS), Watchers Paladin (+proficiency aura), Alert feat (+proficiency), Ambush Battlemaster maneuver (+Supreriority Die), Gift of Alacrity (+1d8).
I've had multiple characters adding +11 to their initiative roll.
Not guarantee outcome in every case but in many very likely do especially if the ambusher has high DEX
What it guarantee is predictability though, as the DM will know Initiative result in advance being aware of all features benefiting Initiative without any D20 randomization involved.
Thanks all for the answers! I think I'll embrace the 5th edition approach even when it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and let roll the PCs initiative and act in order. Of course they'll be restricted on what they can do by what they know (i.e. by a Perception roll - I am not fond of Passive Perception, I prefer to let them roll).
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Hi all, and sorry if it has been asked before but I could not find a thread where this is discussed using the 2024 rules.
Basically, the party enters a room where an invisible monster is waiting for them. They way I read it everybody should roll initiative (monster with advantage, PCs with disadvantage). Those PCs that rolled higher than the monster are out of luck: They can't attack it (because they can't see it) nor would it make sense for them to ready an action ("I am preparing to attack the monster I don't know is there as soon as it reappears?!"). Then the monster attacks, becomes visible again, and the PCs who rolled a lower initiative can now act normally. In this case it would seem better to roll low on initiative!
The important thing is that in the 2024 rules, Suprise only seems to give you a disadvantage on initiative rolls, it does not forbid you to act for the whole round. But I don't believe giving the monster a full action out of the initiative sequence is how it supposed to work.
Help? Any ideas?
Thanks in advance,
Alex
I would let the PC's who beat the hidden monster in initiative ready an action, or do what ever other preparation they want for combat. Their spider sense is tingling - something bad is about to happen, even if they don't see it yet.
As the DM, you might let the monster attack first and then begin combat if that feels more fitting, even though the rules are now different compared to the 2014 ones.
Also, you can attack an Invisible creature with Disadvantage if you find it, but I’m understanding this doesn’t seem to be your scenario.
When Invisible, while you aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you, you can still be attacked with Disadvantage if the attack or effect doesn't require to see the target.
2024 Surprise specifically design to have less impact on combatants than ever before. The principle is that when combat start and Initiative is rolled for reason, everyone's aware at this point, despite not being able to see the threat.
Yeah but they would need to know the monster is there. I could let them roll Perception (or use Passive Perception) to notice that there is something ("their spider sense is tingling") but in general I don't think the characters should be allowed to try and act just because the players rolled initiative (agreed, this has probably more to do with proper role-play than rules).
Also, a DM who wish to ensure a invisible creature acts before surprised one can always use Initiative Score instead of rolling;
15 + DEX mod
VS
05 + DEX mod
There are some threads discussing the new Hiding & Invisible condition rules. Maybe you can find something useful for your games or ruling within them:
Some are crazy, I know :(
This is also interesting from another subforum: Triggered ready action, initiative, subsequent combat - Dungeon Masters Only
And this is a similar question than yours, but using the 2014 rules: Surprise enemies mechanics question
I would go for something similar, I would bump the initiative of the monster for round 1 only and then use it's actual rolled initiative for all following rounds. However another consideration is that invisibility does not mean the party can not "detect" the creature, it merely means they can not see it and so party members that go first could still get the chance to roll perception, perhaps they notice foot prints, they hear the creature licking it's lips in anticipation or notice something else out of place that identifies a creature is there.
Yes i generally rule that surprised creatures know something there that they can't see at this point when combat starts, but don't necessarily know what it is.
If the Invisible creature also Hide, then i may remove his token from the map and have others pick a square they think the creature is to attack.
But to have used such rules before, while it tend to feel more realistic, in practice it's more of a pain (and powerful) to handle if the ambusher doesn't attack , or if it can Hide again after attacking as a Bonus Action for example.
But if used in round 1 until the hidden creature attack amd finally reveal it's location, then i find it gives an added benefit to also be hidden as opposed to only be Invisible.
In 2024, they do know the monster is there as soon as combat begins, otherwise combat would not have started yet. What is supposed to be represented is that the monster makes some sort of noise when it starts it's attack sequence - e.g. an invisible spider might make a clicking noise as it walks towards the party or a hissing noise as it rears back to strike. This alerts the victim/other characters of danger and initiative is rolled to determine who acts first with those unaware of the monster before it began its attack sequence are Surprised by it thus have less chance to be able to act before the monster completes its attack sequence (i.e. takes its turn). If they do somehow manage to act first, they can attack the invisible spider with Disadvantage - effectively 'interrupting' it's attack sequence.
Alternatively, you can have an ambush monster Readying an attack for when a player character gets within range, in this case the monster immediately takes that action when triggered before initiative is even rolled.
That doesn't guarantee the invisible creature acts first, since multiple player character features give bonuses to initiative - Harengon (+ proficiency), Swashbuckler Rogue (+ CHA), Gloomstalker Ranger (+WIS), Watchers Paladin (+proficiency aura), Alert feat (+proficiency), Ambush Battlemaster maneuver (+Supreriority Die), Gift of Alacrity (+1d8).
I've had multiple characters adding +11 to their initiative roll.
Not guarantee outcome in every case but in many very likely do especially if the ambusher has high DEX
What it guarantee is predictability though, as the DM will know Initiative result in advance being aware of all features benefiting Initiative without any D20 randomization involved.
Thanks all for the answers! I think I'll embrace the 5th edition approach even when it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and let roll the PCs initiative and act in order. Of course they'll be restricted on what they can do by what they know (i.e. by a Perception roll - I am not fond of Passive Perception, I prefer to let them roll).