I was looking over the Moon Druid and saw that they can cast a few spells while wild shape. I notice it doesn't say anything about removing the somatic components for the casting time. How do animals like a worm do somatic components? So do I just ignore the somatic component to those spell (by the way all of them have a somatic component) or do I tell my players that they have to take the warcaster feat every time?
The way I understand the Circle of the Moon Spells feature, you can cast the spells from the table regardless of your current form.
Moonbeam, for instance, is one of those spells, but I don't think you need to provide the Material component to cast it when you're in Wild Shape form.
I was looking over the Moon Druid and saw that they can cast a few spells while wild shape. I notice it doesn't say anything about removing the somatic components for the casting time. How do animals like a worm do somatic components? So do I just ignore the somatic component to those spell (by the way all of them have a somatic component) or do I tell my players that they have to take the warcaster feat every time?
You don't ignore the somatic components of those spells, no. I think most of the animal forms you can transform into have appendages that can probably manage somatic components, though. A worm couldn't, true, but every animal form does have its limitations. In any case there's no existing stat block for a worm and probably little motivation for a Moon Druid to ever transform into one.
The War Caster feat would not be of assistance in this case anyway since it doesn't do anything to remove the somatic components of spells. It just allows you to perform somatic components while holding a weapon.
Like the 2014 Druid, the base class gains the ability to cast spells in Beast form at level 18, except when a spell consumes a Material component or requires a component of a specific cost. But the 2024 Circle of the Moon Druid can start casting the spells from your Circle of the Moon Spells table as early as level 3! This means you don’t have to choose between staying in your Beast form or casting Cure Wounds on an ally.
The way I understand the Circle of the Moon Spells feature, you can cast the spells from the table regardless of your current form.
Moonbeam, for instance, is one of those spells, but I don't think you need to provide the Material component to cast it when you're in Wild Shape form.
EDIT: but maybe I'm wrong!
Thinking again about my own opinion.
If Moonbeam is cast through the feature and it's ruled you need to provide the M component, how is that useful in a general-case scenario? If you choose to merge your equipment into your new form, you lose access to your Spellcasting Focus or Component Pouch, and if you don't merge your equipment, most beasts aren't able to handle those objects.
I was glad to see the one Stack Exchange post cite the inability to perform somatic components in beast form. There would be no overcoming this except for primates (and perhaps raccoons). The feature has to allow the Druid to do what it says, so it is logical that RAI material and somatic components for the selected spells are not required.
No one in this thread has even mentioned Verbal components yet which, by rule, "is the chanting of esoteric words" which "must be uttered in a normal speaking voice".
This whole thing does seem like a minor oversight by the authors.
Perhaps it might be possible to interpret the phrase "you can cast the spells from this feature while you are in Wild Shape form" as being a Specific vs. General exception to the general rule for spellcasting which state that "A spell’s components are physical requirements the spellcaster must meet to cast the spell". So, under this interpretation, the feature allows you to cast the spell without actually meeting any physical requirements. I.e., without providing any of the spell's components (Verbal, Somatic or Material). But other requirements, such as using an appropriate spell slot, would still be required to cast the spell. (Such an interpretation might also prevent spells cast in this way from being affected by Counterspell.) Although this is obviously the intent, as written it feels like a bit of a stretch that this can be assumed without a bit more explicit language added to the feature. I don't really see the wording for this changing though -- perhaps it will eventually just be addressed and confirmed by Sage Advice at some point.
No one in this thread has even mentioned Verbal components yet which, by rule, "is the chanting of esoteric words" which "must be uttered in a normal speaking voice". [...]
Level 2: The Wild Shape feature allows speaking while shape-shifted.
No one in this thread has even mentioned Verbal components yet which, by rule, "is the chanting of esoteric words" which "must be uttered in a normal speaking voice". [...]
Level 2: The Wild Shape feature allows speaking while shape-shifted.
Yeah, I was just going to say this — this is a change from the way it worked in 2014, but I suspect it's a change made at least in part to enable this specific thing.
The PHB says you can do it so just let your player do it.
What's the problem?
That was my initial understanding as well and I guess that's RAI, but it would be better if some errata added something similar to the text found under Level 18: Beast Spells:
While using Wild Shape, you can cast spells in Beast form, except for any spell that has a Material component with a cost specified or that consumes its Material component.
The PHB says you can do it so just let your player do it.
What's the problem?
The problem is that the Circle of the Moon feature doesn't say that you can ignore components and thus you shouldn't be able to, that's not how the rules generally work. A specific feature being silent on a requirement from a general rule doesn't mean that requirement isn't there, you need exceptions to be explicitly stated.
The PHB says you can do it so just let your player do it.
What's the problem?
The problem is that the Circle of the Moon feature doesn't say that you can ignore components and thus you shouldn't be able to, that's not how the rules generally work. A specific feature being silent on a requirement from a general rule doesn't mean that requirement isn't there, you need exceptions to be explicitly stated.
To each their own, I'm not going to give my players a hard time about it.
I will never tell my player, "No no! you can't cast spells as a fish because you don't have your stick and you can't make the motions for your spell!" F-that, that's stupid.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
To each their own, I'm not going to give my players a hard time about it.
I will never tell my player, "No no! you can't cast spells as a fish because you don't have your stick and you can't make the motions for your spell!" F-that, that's stupid.
And I'm not saying that you should. Allowing a Moon Druid to cast those spells without bothering with components isn't going to be a big in-game issue in itself.
What I am saying though is that if you rule that way then you should consider the wider issues and be clear (and upfront) that you are letting them ignore the normal spellcasting rules for this specific case. Because while using the principle of "the rule is silent on other requirements and thus we ignore them" might work fine for the Moon Druid (and the Beast Spells) features there are loads of other features in the rules that also are silent on some general spellcasting rules in the same way as these features are where it would become very problematic to use the same principle.
I would very much have preferred it if they did an errata for the Moon Druid and the Beast Spells features to clearly say what components (if any) they can ignore while Wild Shaped or if they need to pick the right form to be able to cast the spells (as @wagnarokkr suggested).
Yes it is the same darn thing again and that just proves my point.
Because they realised that they had fecked up and thus they changed the Telekinetic feat in the new PHB to fix the issue. Of corse they did, IMHO, choose the stupidest way to fix it (but likely the easiest) but at least it is fixed and with it the related issues too.
I would very much have preferred it if they did an errata for the Moon Druid and the Beast Spells features to clearly say what components (if any) they can ignore while Wild Shaped or if they need to pick the right form to be able to cast the spells (as @wagnarokkr suggested).
I am changing my mind on the possibility that this was an oversight.
As of now I have a feeling that this issue was considered by the developers and that they decided that the phrase "you can cast the spells from this feature while you are in Wild Shape form" was sort of a "clever" way of actually implying (but not explicitly stating) that this feature allows you to ignore the physical requirements (verbal, somatic and material components) when casting spells.
Meaning, normally a spellcaster must embody a physical form that is capable of meeting these physical requirements in order to cast a spell. So, if their body takes on some other form which is unable to meet these requirements then normally, by default, you would not be able to cast a spell in that form. This is the default for most Druids in their Wild Shape form. However, they are explicitly saying that this feature does allow such spellcasting while in that form, creating an exception to the normal requirements (implicitly).
This seems similar to the approach that they seemed to have taken with monsters that can cast spells by using features in their stat block. For example, the Ancient Gold Dragon has the ability to cast a bunch of spells "requiring no Material components". Nothing is mentioned in the stat block about the Somatic component. Ancient Gold Dragons do not have hands. Yet, they have the ability to cast spells with a Somatic component, likely as some sort of implicit exception to the general spellcasting rules by virtue of the stat block providing this ability to cast such spells.
It's not great, and it would have been better if such exceptions were explicit as you all are suggesting. However, I do not actually anticipate this changing within the rules text. At best, if it becomes a frequently asked question, it might eventually come up in a future Sage Advice explanation that confirms the somewhat obvious RAI.
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I was looking over the Moon Druid and saw that they can cast a few spells while wild shape. I notice it doesn't say anything about removing the somatic components for the casting time. How do animals like a worm do somatic components? So do I just ignore the somatic component to those spell (by the way all of them have a somatic component) or do I tell my players that they have to take the warcaster feat every time?
The way I understand the Circle of the Moon Spells feature, you can cast the spells from the table regardless of your current form.
Moonbeam, for instance, is one of those spells, but I don't think you need to provide the Material component to cast it when you're in Wild Shape form.
EDIT: but maybe I'm wrong!
You don't ignore the somatic components of those spells, no. I think most of the animal forms you can transform into have appendages that can probably manage somatic components, though. A worm couldn't, true, but every animal form does have its limitations. In any case there's no existing stat block for a worm and probably little motivation for a Moon Druid to ever transform into one.
The War Caster feat would not be of assistance in this case anyway since it doesn't do anything to remove the somatic components of spells. It just allows you to perform somatic components while holding a weapon.
pronouns: he/she/they
Based on the article The 2024 Circle of the Moon Druid and Changes to Wild Shape, I understand there's a difference in the intent between the 2014 Druid and the 2024 Circle of the Moon Druid:
Thinking again about my own opinion.
If Moonbeam is cast through the feature and it's ruled you need to provide the M component, how is that useful in a general-case scenario? If you choose to merge your equipment into your new form, you lose access to your Spellcasting Focus or Component Pouch, and if you don't merge your equipment, most beasts aren't able to handle those objects.
In case it's useful for anyone now or in the future, the same question was asked on RPG Stack Exchange: Can a Wild Shaped Moon Druid cast Moonbeam without the material component? - Role-playing Games Stack Exchange
I was glad to see the one Stack Exchange post cite the inability to perform somatic components in beast form. There would be no overcoming this except for primates (and perhaps raccoons). The feature has to allow the Druid to do what it says, so it is logical that RAI material and somatic components for the selected spells are not required.
No one in this thread has even mentioned Verbal components yet which, by rule, "is the chanting of esoteric words" which "must be uttered in a normal speaking voice".
This whole thing does seem like a minor oversight by the authors.
Perhaps it might be possible to interpret the phrase "you can cast the spells from this feature while you are in Wild Shape form" as being a Specific vs. General exception to the general rule for spellcasting which state that "A spell’s components are physical requirements the spellcaster must meet to cast the spell". So, under this interpretation, the feature allows you to cast the spell without actually meeting any physical requirements. I.e., without providing any of the spell's components (Verbal, Somatic or Material). But other requirements, such as using an appropriate spell slot, would still be required to cast the spell. (Such an interpretation might also prevent spells cast in this way from being affected by Counterspell.) Although this is obviously the intent, as written it feels like a bit of a stretch that this can be assumed without a bit more explicit language added to the feature. I don't really see the wording for this changing though -- perhaps it will eventually just be addressed and confirmed by Sage Advice at some point.
Level 2: The Wild Shape feature allows speaking while shape-shifted.
The PHB says you can do it so just let your player do it.
What's the problem?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Yeah, I was just going to say this — this is a change from the way it worked in 2014, but I suspect it's a change made at least in part to enable this specific thing.
pronouns: he/she/they
That was my initial understanding as well and I guess that's RAI, but it would be better if some errata added something similar to the text found under Level 18: Beast Spells:
Which means you don't have to be a Moon Druid to cast spells in beast form. Moons get it earlier and other sub-classes have to wait.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
That's a very reasonable way to rule it, and I'd be open to allowing it in our games.
EDIT: for clarity.
The problem is that the Circle of the Moon feature doesn't say that you can ignore components and thus you shouldn't be able to, that's not how the rules generally work. A specific feature being silent on a requirement from a general rule doesn't mean that requirement isn't there, you need exceptions to be explicitly stated.
It's Telekinetic and Mage Hand all over again...
To each their own, I'm not going to give my players a hard time about it.
I will never tell my player, "No no! you can't cast spells as a fish because you don't have your stick and you can't make the motions for your spell!" F-that, that's stupid.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
And I'm not saying that you should. Allowing a Moon Druid to cast those spells without bothering with components isn't going to be a big in-game issue in itself.
What I am saying though is that if you rule that way then you should consider the wider issues and be clear (and upfront) that you are letting them ignore the normal spellcasting rules for this specific case. Because while using the principle of "the rule is silent on other requirements and thus we ignore them" might work fine for the Moon Druid (and the Beast Spells) features there are loads of other features in the rules that also are silent on some general spellcasting rules in the same way as these features are where it would become very problematic to use the same principle.
I would very much have preferred it if they did an errata for the Moon Druid and the Beast Spells features to clearly say what components (if any) they can ignore while Wild Shaped or if they need to pick the right form to be able to cast the spells (as @wagnarokkr suggested).
Yes it is the same darn thing again and that just proves my point.
Because they realised that they had fecked up and thus they changed the Telekinetic feat in the new PHB to fix the issue. Of corse they did, IMHO, choose the stupidest way to fix it (but likely the easiest) but at least it is fixed and with it the related issues too.
I am changing my mind on the possibility that this was an oversight.
As of now I have a feeling that this issue was considered by the developers and that they decided that the phrase "you can cast the spells from this feature while you are in Wild Shape form" was sort of a "clever" way of actually implying (but not explicitly stating) that this feature allows you to ignore the physical requirements (verbal, somatic and material components) when casting spells.
Meaning, normally a spellcaster must embody a physical form that is capable of meeting these physical requirements in order to cast a spell. So, if their body takes on some other form which is unable to meet these requirements then normally, by default, you would not be able to cast a spell in that form. This is the default for most Druids in their Wild Shape form. However, they are explicitly saying that this feature does allow such spellcasting while in that form, creating an exception to the normal requirements (implicitly).
This seems similar to the approach that they seemed to have taken with monsters that can cast spells by using features in their stat block. For example, the Ancient Gold Dragon has the ability to cast a bunch of spells "requiring no Material components". Nothing is mentioned in the stat block about the Somatic component. Ancient Gold Dragons do not have hands. Yet, they have the ability to cast spells with a Somatic component, likely as some sort of implicit exception to the general spellcasting rules by virtue of the stat block providing this ability to cast such spells.
It's not great, and it would have been better if such exceptions were explicit as you all are suggesting. However, I do not actually anticipate this changing within the rules text. At best, if it becomes a frequently asked question, it might eventually come up in a future Sage Advice explanation that confirms the somewhat obvious RAI.