If you can’t make a bonus action attack, then how can Nick move that attack to the Attack Action? Never said Nick itself uses a bonus action, just that it requires the ability to take a bonus actions so you have the ability to as a bonus action make an additional/extra attack that can be used by the Nick weapon in the main attack action.
You don't need to be able to use a Bonus Action until you do something that actual uses the Bonus Action. If you make an attack with a Light weapon and the Nick Mastery applies to either the initial weapon or the weapon you are making the extra attack, you do not need to expend a Bonus Action and whether you have a Bonus Action or not doesn't matter.
Btw, find it funny that Two-Weapon Fighting is in the very back of the 2024 PHB and nowhere in the Free Rules except if you know what you're looking for.
I don't see Two-weapon Fighting anywhere in the back of the 2024 PHB except for the Two-weapon Fighting [Fighting Style] Feat. I think this was the part of the reason for moving around the rules. In 2014, Two-Weapon Fighting could refer to the generic rule or to the Fighting Style.
Nick: ( remastered); Prerequisites: use of Bonus Actions
When you make the attack of the Light Property, you can make the additional bonus action attack as an extra attack on the initial attack action. This can be done only once per turn and it does not use your bonus action.
There fixed it for ya.
This is incorrect because Nick does not require the use of Bonus Action. Independent of that "Prerequisites: use of Bonus Action" would mean that you would have to use a Bonus Action to activate Nick (which again, you don't) and that conflicts with "and it does not use your bonus action." There is no such thing as a bonus action attack. The Light property gives you an attack and to use that attack, you have to expend a Bonus Action. If the Nick Mastery applies, the Light property gives you an extra attack once per turn and if you already expended your bonus action or some effect prevented you from using Bonus Actions, it would not prevent the extra attack from the Light property with the Nick Mastery.
You haven't fixed the wording. You have changed the wording to say something multiple people have tried to explain that it does not say.
If you are making the extra attack from the Light property with the [wprop]Nick[/wrprop], the combined rules become:
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action part of the same Attack action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. You make this extra attack only once per turn. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Actionextra attack unless that modifier is negative.
That is all there is to it. Nothing ever requires the character to be able to potentially take a certain action, bonus action, or reaction. The only requirements are to actually take those actions, bonus actions, or reactions. Once something removes the action, bonus action, or reaction requirement, the requirement to potentially take actions, bonus actions, or reactions is removed because that requirement never existed independently of the actual action requirements.
To address the first partial quote; the nick mastery only applies when using the weapon that has the nick mastery as it’s ability. That means to activate the nick ability, the nick weapon has to be used first. If you can’t use a bonus action then you don’t get the extra/additional attack the light property grants, and nick can’t be used, period ( because of the general rules of bonus action. Just because a feature grants an action that can be used as a bonus action doesn’t mean it resets the bonus action use, it just means that WHEN you use a bonus action a lot of choices are available and only one can be used.
As to the other partial post, I only ever glanced at the 2024 book, and I’m fairly certain Two-Weapon Fighting is in the very back in glossary, per usual, while the FEAT of the same name is not as hidden.
As to the needing a bonus action to use nick, let me be clear:
You Need The Ability to be able to Use a Bonus Action, if you CANNOT Use a Bonus Action, you CANNOT Use Nick Mastery.
As to the post where the words bonus action is edited, that’s incorrect. That attempts to rewrite the original intent of the rule and circumvent the rules on Bonus Actions, whats next removing the once per turn of the Nick Mastery? ( with all due regard, the logic that Nick can apply to an attack that is being made as a bonus attack is Homebrew and NOT RAW. and the design is another FAIL mark for the designer. )
So, like the other user I will ask that if you use quotes from other post, please use the entire post, not just partial elements that attempt to inaccurately portray the context of the conversation.
And basically IMO, we can agree that we disagree about exactly how Nick functions and can agree a total redesign is required, correct?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
To address the first partial quote; the nick mastery only applies when using the weapon that has the nick mastery as it’s ability. That means to activate the nick ability, the nick weapon has to be used first. If you can’t use a bonus action then you don’t get the extra/additional attack the light property grants, and nick can’t be used, period ( because of the general rules of bonus action. Just because a feature grants an action that can be used as a bonus action doesn’t mean it resets the bonus action use, it just means that WHEN you use a bonus action a lot of choices are available and only one can be used.
As to the other partial post, I only ever glanced at the 2024 book, and I’m fairly certain Two-Weapon Fighting is in the very back in glossary, per usual, while the FEAT of the same name is not as hidden.
As to the needing a bonus action to use nick, let me be clear:
You Need The Ability to be able to Use a Bonus Action, if you CANNOT Use a Bonus Action, you CANNOT Use Nick Mastery.
As to the post where the words bonus action is edited, that’s incorrect. That attempts to rewrite the original intent of the rule and circumvent the rules on Bonus Actions, whats next removing the once per turn of the Nick Mastery? ( with all due regard, the logic that Nick can apply to an attack that is being made as a bonus attack is Homebrew and NOT RAW. and the design is another FAIL mark for the designer. )
So, like the other user I will ask that if you use quotes from other post, please use the entire post, not just partial elements that attempt to inaccurately portray the context of the conversation.
And basically IMO, we can agree that we disagree about exactly how Nick functions and can agree a total redesign is required, correct?
I am always going to cut posts down to the relevant portion because there is no need for walls of text trying to figure out what part you are replying to. I would appreciate it if you did the same for clarity. Please feel free to explain what portion of your post you think I cut that changed the context when quoted in my reply. I would appreciate it if you did not make unfounded accusations about my intentions.
Nick Weapon Mastery never states that it has to be the initial weapon or the follow up attack. I won't argue that you can have a dagger in your pocket and benefit from the Nick Mastery attacking only with Shortswords. However, if using a Dagger and Shortsword, there is no RAW requirement to use the Dagger or the Shortsword first.
Nothing ever requires the ability to use Bonus Actions. That does not exist. You either use a Bonus Action to do a thing that uses Bonus Actions or there is no requirement related to Bonus Actions. "You Need The Ability to be able to Use a Bonus Action" is something you have invented and never appears in the book.
I looked in the 2024 Player's Handbook beside my desk when you mentioned it and again just now. It is not in the Rule Glossary on page 377 between Truesight and Unarmed Strike. Page 384 has the index entry for "Two-weapon Fighting, Feat" which is page 210 and there is no other reference to Two-weapon Fighting.
As to the post where the words bonus action is edited, that’s incorrect. That attempts to rewrite the original intent of the rule and circumvent the rules on Bonus Actions, whats next removing the once per turn of the Nick Mastery? ( with all due regard, the logic that Nick can apply to an attack that is being made as a bonus attack is Homebrew and NOT RAW. and the design is another FAIL mark for the designer. )
We don't have sufficient information to determine RAI. The post I edited is correct according to RAW and the only potential errata or clarification we might see is whether Nick has to be used for the initial attack or for the follow up attack granted by the Light property. There is nothing else that needs clarity. If they remain silent on the matter, then RAW is that the Nick weapon can be used for either attack in order to trigger the bonus. Nick only applies to the extra attack of the Light property; it removes the Bonus Action requirement and restricts the extra attack to once per turn (to prevent each attack with a Light weapon from triggering more attacks). That is all it does.
Let me propose this scenario to you to make sure I understand your position. A level 2 character with Nick Weapon Mastery casts Misty Step using a Bonus Action.
If you then use the Attack action to attack with a Shortsword, can you attack with a Dagger using the Nick mastery as part of the same Attack action?
If you then instead use the Attack action to attack with a Dagger using the Nick mastery, can you attack with a Shortsword as part of the same Attack action?
The order in which the attacks are made still matters, so no putting the cart before the horse. Attacking first with a Dagger doesn't mean you get to count that attack as the Bonus Action attack you move to the Attack action because you're using the Dagger to initiate the action in the first place.
Nick does not state that the attack from the Light property must be made with the Nick weapon. As long as one of the two attacks, the initial or the extra attack from the Light property are made with a Nick weapon, RAW is satisfied and I have not seen anything to say RAI is any different.
Attacking with Shadow Blade can happen at any point during the Attack. It's a Simple weapon with the Finesse, Light, and Thrown properties. It meets the requirement to trigger two-weapon fighting; weapon mastery not necessary. You cast it with your Bonus Action so you can attack with it during your Attack action, and it's only because you attack with it that you can move a subsequent attack with a Light weapon that also has the Nick mastery (Dagger, Light Hammer, Sickle, or Scimitar) to the Attack action.
It should be noted that Shadow Blade only needs a bonus spell to cast it or to cause it to reappear in your hand during the 1-minute duration, so you can cast it turn 1, use the attack action to attack with it and a Nick weapon, then as long as you haven't dropped it or thrown it, you can use the extra attacks from Light as part of the Attack action thanks to Nick and use the Bonus Action for an additional attack via Enhanced Dual Wielder, if you have the Dual Wielder feat.
It should not need to be stated that a weapon mastery only applies with the weapon it's used with, but here we are. You have your order of operations wrong if you think a first attack with a weapon with the Nick mastery grants permission to shift an attack with a different weapon which lacks the Nick mastery from the Bonus Action to the Attack action.
And as far as I can tell, [feat]Dual Wielder[/feat] hasn't actually been mentioned. It's superfluous to this discussion.
Yes it should be said. The rules for Nick specifically do NOT call out the weapon used to make the attack. It only requires one of the weapons have the nick property. ALL of the other weapon mastery properties require the weapon being used to make the specific attack to have the property. The Nick property is the only one that does NOT state that requirement.
Your comment " It should not need to be stated that a weapon mastery only applies with the weapon it's used with, but here we are." is disingenuous because THAT is exactly what the rules for this weapon mastery property state. The specific weapon with the Nick property does NOT need to be used for the bonus action attack - only one of the two weapons need to have the Nick property for the bonus action attack allowed by the light property to be moved into the Attack action. That is exactly what the rules state.
Here are the rules for reference:
"Mastery Properties
Each weapon has a mastery property, which is usable only by a character who has a feature, such as Weapon Mastery, that unlocks the property for the character. The properties are defined below."
The weapon mastery property is unlocked for the character by having the Weapon Mastery feature and selecting that specific weapon. The properties are specifically defined by the text for each property.
"Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
This does NOT state that the extra attack of the light property must be made with the weapon with the Nick property. This only requires that the character be wielding a weapon with the Nick property and have that Weapon Mastery. Reading any more into that is creating rules that do not exist.
Compare this to every other weapon property:
"Push
If you hit a creature with this weapon, you can push the creature up to 10 feet straight away from yourself if it is Large or smaller."
AND all the rest:
Cleave: If you hit a creature with a melee attack roll using this weapon,
Graze: If your attack roll with this weapon misses a creature,
Sap: If you hit a creature with this weapon,
...
EVERY single other weapon mastery property requires the attack be made with that weapon to obtain the effect. The Nick property explicitly leaves out that requirement. It seems obvious to me that if the requirement was included in every other weapon mastery property that leaving it out of the Nick property was completely intentional. A character does not need to use the Nick weapon for the moved bonus attack - all that is required is that the character be using a nick weapon which then allows them to move the attack from the light property into the attack action with whichever light weapon they have in the other hand ... whether or not that specific weapon has the Nick property.
To address the first partial quote; the nick mastery only applies when using the weapon that has the nick mastery as it’s ability. That means to activate the nick ability, the nick weapon has to be used first. If you can’t use a bonus action then you don’t get the extra/additional attack the light property grants, and nick can’t be used, period ( because of the general rules of bonus action. Just because a feature grants an action that can be used as a bonus action doesn’t mean it resets the bonus action use, it just means that WHEN you use a bonus action a lot of choices are available and only one can be used.
As to the other partial post, I only ever glanced at the 2024 book, and I’m fairly certain Two-Weapon Fighting is in the very back in glossary, per usual, while the FEAT of the same name is not as hidden.
As to the needing a bonus action to use nick, let me be clear:
You Need The Ability to be able to Use a Bonus Action, if you CANNOT Use a Bonus Action, you CANNOT Use Nick Mastery.
As to the post where the words bonus action is edited, that’s incorrect. That attempts to rewrite the original intent of the rule and circumvent the rules on Bonus Actions, whats next removing the once per turn of the Nick Mastery? ( with all due regard, the logic that Nick can apply to an attack that is being made as a bonus attack is Homebrew and NOT RAW. and the design is another FAIL mark for the designer. )
So, like the other user I will ask that if you use quotes from other post, please use the entire post, not just partial elements that attempt to inaccurately portray the context of the conversation.
And basically IMO, we can agree that we disagree about exactly how Nick functions and can agree a total redesign is required, correct?
I am always going to cut posts down to the relevant portion because there is no need for walls of text trying to figure out what part you are replying to. I would appreciate it if you did the same for clarity. Please feel free to explain what portion of your post you think I cut that changed the context when quoted in my reply. I would appreciate it if you did not make unfounded accusations about my intentions.
Nick Weapon Mastery never states that it has to be the initial weapon or the follow up attack. I won't argue that you can have a dagger in your pocket and benefit from the Nick Mastery attacking only with Shortswords. However, if using a Dagger and Shortsword, there is no RAW requirement to use the Dagger or the Shortsword first.
Nothing ever requires the ability to use Bonus Actions. That does not exist. You either use a Bonus Action to do a thing that uses Bonus Actions or there is no requirement related to Bonus Actions. "You Need The Ability to be able to Use a Bonus Action" is something you have invented and never appears in the book.
I looked in the 2024 Player's Handbook beside my desk when you mentioned it and again just now. It is not in the Rule Glossary on page 377 between Truesight and Unarmed Strike. Page 384 has the index entry for "Two-weapon Fighting, Feat" which is page 210 and there is no other reference to Two-weapon Fighting.
As to the post where the words bonus action is edited, that’s incorrect. That attempts to rewrite the original intent of the rule and circumvent the rules on Bonus Actions, whats next removing the once per turn of the Nick Mastery? ( with all due regard, the logic that Nick can apply to an attack that is being made as a bonus attack is Homebrew and NOT RAW. and the design is another FAIL mark for the designer. )
We don't have sufficient information to determine RAI. The post I edited is correct according to RAW and the only potential errata or clarification we might see is whether Nick has to be used for the initial attack or for the follow up attack granted by the Light property. There is nothing else that needs clarity. If they remain silent on the matter, then RAW is that the Nick weapon can be used for either attack in order to trigger the bonus. Nick only applies to the extra attack of the Light property; it removes the Bonus Action requirement and restricts the extra attack to once per turn (to prevent each attack with a Light weapon from triggering more attacks). That is all it does.
Let me propose this scenario to you to make sure I understand your position. A level 2 character with Nick Weapon Mastery casts Misty Step using a Bonus Action.
If you then use the Attack action to attack with a Shortsword, can you attack with a Dagger using the Nick mastery as part of the same Attack action?
If you then instead use the Attack action to attack with a Dagger using the Nick mastery, can you attack with a Shortsword as part of the same Attack action?
Which scenario do you think is RAW?
If I quote another members post, I am replying to that individual only, not multiple members like others do, and prefer to use entire post because the very first member that is referenced is the member that is being conversed with. So with all due respect, no I will not piecemeal a post to argue in bad-faith.
And with that to finally answer the last part of your post, if you Bonus Action Misty Step, by RAW and rules of said Bonus Actions you can not use or take another bonus action no matter what thereafter as only ONE bonus action can be taken on a turn. Therefore, you can not after bonus action misty step then use any Nick type action as the ability to take a bonus attack / extra attack/ additional attack action is no longer an option as that attack is dependent on the ability to take a bonus action. the statement:
Nick Weapon Mastery never states that it has to be the initial weapon or the follow up attack. I won't argue that you can have a dagger in your pocket and benefit from the Nick Mastery attacking only with Shortswords. However, if using a Dagger and Shortsword, there is no RAW requirement to use the Dagger or the Shortsword first.
Nothing ever requires the ability to use Bonus Actions. That does not exist. You either use a Bonus Action to do a thing that uses Bonus Actions or there is no requirement related to Bonus Actions. "You Need The Ability to be able to Use a Bonus Action" is something you have invented and never appears in the book.
Only demonstrates the fact that in the rules a great number of elements require the use of a bonus action for that element to be utilized. And Nick has to be used when the weapon that has the nick mastery is the weapon making an attack, just as other weapons with a mastery are used to envoke their specific mastery ability, and Nick is no different.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Sorry, but TWF is on like page 390ish of the 2024 PHB and it practically says the same thing as the Light property. ( at least thats what i found in the book I looked at in my FLGS, way at the end of the book. )
Nick is on certain light weapons correct? So, like all the other weapon mastery, the weapon with the mastery has to be used to trigger the ability, correct?
I see you are attempting to remove just the bonus action and possibly thinking that the “extra attack” is like the general rules of Extra Attack. But thats a false assumption, the bonus attack that both the light property and dual wielding feat give is an attack that can be used when taking a bonus action.
If you can’t use a bonus action, you can’t make that bonus attack. Nick only changes the ability to make the bonus attack once as part of the Attack Action. That means you have to use a light nick weapon for the Attack Action so the bonus attack with a different light, or non light weapon with the dual wielding feat, can be added to the Attack Action and having the ability to make a bonus attack is a requirement. If you can’t use a bonus action, you can’t make a bonus attack, you can’t use nick. It’s a failsafe feature, thus why you can only use nick once, just like you can only use a bonus action once.
Using a weapon with nick as a bonus attack can’t use the bonus attack of light property a second time, no matter how many ways you believe you can because you only get One bonus action on your turn.
The 2024 Player's Handbook stops on page 384. I am looking in a book in hand. It's not in the Index and it's not in the Rules Glossary. It may be somewhere else, but I would be surprised. The 2014 Two-weapon Fighting is word-for-word the 2024 Light property. The only thing that changed is the name and the location where the rule is printed (combat vs equipment).
If you are making an extra attack via the Nick Weapon Mastery, no Bonus Action is used so the limit on Bonus Action doesn't apply. Nick removes the requirement to use a Bonus Action. Without Nick, there is no requirement to use the Bonus Action from the Light action after the Attack action. You just have to use it after the first attack with a light weapon, but it can otherwise be any time during turn, including between attacks during the Attack action.
Edit: removed unnecessary prior quotes that were difficult to do on my phone.
Sorry, but TWF is on like page 390ish of the 2024 PHB and it practically says the same thing as the Light property. ( at least thats what i found in the book I looked at in my FLGS, way at the end of the book. )
It's not. The two-weapon fighting rules are scattered, which is, I admit, not ideal.
All the relevant rules are in chapters 5 and 6:
The Light weapon property
The Nick weapon mastery property
The Dual Wielder feat
The Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style feat
Light and Dual Wielder give you abilities that let you make additional attacks, and Nick and TWF modify those abilities.
Nick is on certain light weapons correct? So, like all the other weapon mastery, the weapon with the mastery has to be used to trigger the ability, correct?
Yes. The question of what it means to "trigger the ability" is undefined, however. Until we get a clarification, it's GM's call, but "you have to use a Nick weapon for one of the attacks" is a safe baseline assumption.
I see you are attempting to remove just the bonus action and possibly thinking that the “extra attack” is like the general rules of Extra Attack. But thats a false assumption, the bonus attack that both the light property and dual wielding feat give is an attack that can be used when taking a bonus action.
If you can’t use a bonus action, you can’t make that bonus attack. Nick only changes the ability to make the bonus attack once as part of the Attack Action. That means you have to use a light nick weapon for the Attack Action so the bonus attack with a different light, or non light weapon with the dual wielding feat, can be added to the Attack Action and having the ability to make a bonus attack is a requirement. If you can’t use a bonus action, you can’t make a bonus attack, you can’t use nick. It’s a failsafe feature, thus why you can only use nick once, just like you can only use a bonus action once.
Using a weapon with nick as a bonus attack can’t use the bonus attack of light property a second time, no matter how many ways you believe you can because you only get One bonus action on your turn.
Here's what Nick actually says:
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
It explicitly says you are not making the attack as a bonus action.
Therefore, you do not need to have a bonus action available. And if you do, you can use it for some other ability.
You cannot use it for the extra attack of the light property because Nick says you may make that extra attack only once per turn, and you already used it when you made the Nick attack.
Nick's attack and the restrictions it places are entirely separated from the Bonus Action economy.
Additionally, you can use that Bonus Action for the attack granted by Dual Wielder, because that is not the extra attack of the Light property -- it's the extra attack of the Dual Wielder feat. You only get to do it once because you run out of Bonus actions.
(I have no idea what, if anything, you were arguing about the DW attack; I just thought I should stick it in for clarity.)
Edit: The argument that you can't take the Nick attack unless you have a bonus action available would imply that you can't use Quickened Spell unless you still have your Action available.
(I suppose it's possible that the two of you would argue that that is the case. But it's still a clarifying example IMO)
As to the book reference, I don’t own the book nor will I ever purchase such, and so as only glancing through if I mistakenly remember what was seen, I stand corrected. ( and because of the inability to accurately remember the reference, that just means the new edition is not that good enough to warrant more consideration. )
I would never consider the ability of someone to recall page references or even general text references after skimming the book as a reflection on the book itself. Perhaps you are a particularly talented speed reader, but I hope you are not spending significant time reading through a book you have no intention of buying unless your local store has a designated sample copy. I would be upset if someone thoroughly read the book I thought I was buying new.
As for Nick, does it not explicitly mention and state : “ the extra attack of the Light property, you can make IT as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action.” , it refers to the additional attack that can only be made as a bonus action in the light property, meaning if you can’t take a bonus action when you initially attack with the light weapon property, the additional attack can not be made, and Nick requires the ability to make THAT attack in order to use it’s ability. No ability to take a bonus action, no ability for nick to move anything, because there is nothing to move.
Nick says "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action [emphasis added]. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
"Instead of as a Bonus Action" means you no longer use a Bonus Action; the Bonus Action is completely removed from the extra attack requirements. Instead of means that the Bonus Action required is replaced with the Attack action.
EDIT: if you use your bonus action before you Quicken a spell you can’t cast the spell as a bonus action, RAW only one bonus action per turn. Now if you have never used your bonus action before, then quickening a spell only uses your bonus action leaving your main action still available. It is an example of how Nick is also dependent on the ability to still have your bonus action available but instead of using the bonus action it leaves it alone to be used for available bonus actions. Same concept, different mechanics that basically alters action economy in favor of one action over the other but still relies and requires both actions to be available for use.
Excellent example. If you use a bonus action earlier in the turn, you cannot use Quickened Spell to cast the Spell as a Bonus Action.
Quickened Spell
Cost: 2 Sorcery Points
When you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action, you can spend 2 Sorcery Points to change the casting time to a Bonus Action for this casting. You can’t modify a spell in this way if you’ve already cast a level 1+ spell on the current turn, nor can you cast a level 1+ spell on this turn after modifying a spell in this way.
When you spend the 2 Sorcery Points, the casting time of a spell, Charm Person for example, becomes 1 Bonus Action instead of 1 Action. If you use your Action before casting a Quickened Charm Person, you no longer have an action available to cast a spell as an Action, but as long as you have not used your Bonus Action, you can still cast the Quickened Charm Person. "...to change the casting time to a Bonus Action for this casting", "... to replace the casting time with a Bonus Action for this casting", "... to cast the spell as a Bonus Action instead of a Magic Action" are all different ways to say the exact same thing. Quickened Spell does not require that you maintain the ability to cast a spell as an action in order to instead cast it as Bonus Action.
The same applies with Nick. Once Nick changes the extra attack, there is no Bonus Action necessary; that action cost has been replaced and it is now part of the Attack action. There is no requirement to be able to use a Bonus Action. Any time doing something does not use your Bonus Action, you do not need to be able to use Bonus Actions in order to do that thing. That applies whether we are talking about not using Bonus Actions, Reactions, or Actions.
Sorry, but TWF is on like page 390ish of the 2024 PHB and it practically says the same thing as the Light property. ( at least thats what i found in the book I looked at in my FLGS, way at the end of the book. )
It's not. The two-weapon fighting rules are scattered, which is, I admit, not ideal.
All the relevant rules are in chapters 5 and 6:
The Light weapon property
The Nick weapon mastery property
The Dual Wielder feat
The Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style feat
Light and Dual Wielder give you abilities that let you make additional attacks, and Nick and TWF modify those abilities.
Nick is on certain light weapons correct? So, like all the other weapon mastery, the weapon with the mastery has to be used to trigger the ability, correct?
Yes. The question of what it means to "trigger the ability" is undefined, however. Until we get a clarification, it's GM's call, but "you have to use a Nick weapon for one of the attacks" is a safe baseline assumption.
I see you are attempting to remove just the bonus action and possibly thinking that the “extra attack” is like the general rules of Extra Attack. But thats a false assumption, the bonus attack that both the light property and dual wielding feat give is an attack that can be used when taking a bonus action.
If you can’t use a bonus action, you can’t make that bonus attack. Nick only changes the ability to make the bonus attack once as part of the Attack Action. That means you have to use a light nick weapon for the Attack Action so the bonus attack with a different light, or non light weapon with the dual wielding feat, can be added to the Attack Action and having the ability to make a bonus attack is a requirement. If you can’t use a bonus action, you can’t make a bonus attack, you can’t use nick. It’s a failsafe feature, thus why you can only use nick once, just like you can only use a bonus action once.
Using a weapon with nick as a bonus attack can’t use the bonus attack of light property a second time, no matter how many ways you believe you can because you only get One bonus action on your turn.
Here's what Nick actually says:
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
It explicitly says you are not making the attack as a bonus action.
Therefore, you do not need to have a bonus action available. And if you do, you can use it for some other ability.
You cannot use it for the extra attack of the light property because Nick says you may make that extra attack only once per turn, and you already used it when you made the Nick attack.
Nick's attack and the restrictions it places are entirely separated from the Bonus Action economy.
Additionally, you can use that Bonus Action for the attack granted by Dual Wielder, because that is not the extra attack of the Light property -- it's the extra attack of the Dual Wielder feat. You only get to do it once because you run out of Bonus actions.
(I have no idea what, if anything, you were arguing about the DW attack; I just thought I should stick it in for clarity.)
Edit: The argument that you can't take the Nick attack unless you have a bonus action available would imply that you can't use Quickened Spell unless you still have your Action available.
(I suppose it's possible that the two of you would argue that that is the case. But it's still a clarifying example IMO)
As to the book reference, I don’t own the book nor will I ever purchase such, and so as only glancing through if I mistakenly remember what was seen, I stand corrected. ( and because of the inability to accurately remember the reference, that just means the new edition is not that good enough to warrant more consideration. )
As for Nick, does it not explicitly mention and state : “ the extra attack of the Light property, you can make IT as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action.” , it refers to the additional attack that can only be made as a bonus action in the light property, meaning if you can’t take a bonus action when you initially attack with the light weapon property, the additional attack can not be made, and Nick requires the ability to make THAT attack in order to use it’s ability. No ability to take a bonus action, no ability for nick to move anything, because there is nothing to move.
EDIT: if you use your bonus action before you Quicken a spell you can’t cast the spell as a bonus action, RAW only one bonus action per turn. Now if you have never used your bonus action before, then quickening a spell only uses your bonus action leaving your main action still available. It is an example of how Nick is also dependent on the ability to still have your bonus action available but instead of using the bonus action it leaves it alone to be used for available bonus actions. Same concept, different mechanics that basically alters action economy in favor of one action over the other but still relies and requires both actions to be available for use.
(emphasis mine)
[Redacted]They said you implied you can't use quickened spell if you don't have your action - not bonus action.
Folk, if your posts are 90% quote that takes up a good deal of the page, you might want to consider cutting them down for readability and to make sure you're focusing on the points you want to discuss. You might also want to consider if you're focusing more on debating the user, more than discussing the points.
Well to address the book scanning, yes some FLGS have a display copy of the Rpg books so an person can read and evaluate the quality before committing to purchase, and then a sealed version is brought out all nice and pretty.
That's awesome and rare. I hope you revisit it sometime as I think the changes are overall positive but require some extended time to really appreciate. There are some changes I will be discarding, background specific attribute boosts and set origin feats per background primarily, but that does ruin the lot for me.
Quickening a spell requires the ability to use your bonus action otherwise your wasted your points ( most DM’s just wave the forgetfulness and no points spent, some force the burn, it’s a call they make and depending on how other calls have gone might be the straw that pulls the red flag.), and Nick Mastery is the same way. If you can’t make a bonus action you can’t make the extra / bonus / additional attack of the light property, and therefore can’t move an action that you can’t take or make to another action.
I am not asking about the Bonus Action to Quicken a Spell. To be eligible to Quicken a Spell the Spell must have a casting time of 1 Action. If you use your action; you attacked, you cast a cantrip, etcetera, can you cast a Quickened Spell? You have claimed that Nick requires that you be able to use a Bonus Action in order for Nick to convert the Bonus Action into part of the Attack Action and not use the Bonus Action. My question to you is Does casting a Quickened Spell require that you be able to use an Action in order for Quickened Spell to convert the casting time into a Bonus Action and not use the Action? What is your stance on that.
Edit: ( off-shot thought) Btw, if the number of Nick uses where tied to ether Proficiency Bonus, or weapon ability mod[ min 1] then people who realize Nick Mastery isn’t currently worthwhile might start to find ways to make it worthwhile. [ Fighters and others who can use the mastery could chain attacks equal to the number of uses per/(X), that resets when you take a short rest. ] but the Nick Mastery as it stands, we can all agree, needs to be more explicit in how it works before getting into more detail about expanding it’s uses because as it is written, it’s just jank as heck.
There is dispute about whether Nick requires the initial strike to be with the Nick weapon or the second attack, but you are the only one arguing that Nick requires the ability to use a Bonus Action. I am interested in if you think Quickened Spells require the ability to use an Action before you cast them as a Bonus Action.
To address the various questions presented, and to kill two birds with one stone, as they say, the sequence of events is more important than most realize.
Since you seem intent on wanting an answer on the question of Quickening a spell, which is tangentially different from the topic of discussion about Nick weapon Mastery and Shadow Blade;
depending on what you’re main action was used for say casting a leveled spell like FireBall, if you already used your Bonus action to do something else you can not Quicken that fireball to use as a bonus action. if you used your main action to do something like make an attack or something that doesn’t involve casting a spell that is leveled, and you didn’t use your bonus action yet then by rules as written ( both 2014 and 2024 ) quickening a spell for use as a bonus action is possible, but massively dependent upon your use of what was your main action as per the totality of RAW.
Okay. I had some work to repair the formatted of the quoting text. Forgive me if anything is off.
This is the reason I asked the question. Nick and Quickening a Spell both change the actions required to perform an activity. Nick replaces a Bonus Action with part of the Attack Action and adds "once per turn". Quickening a Spell replaces a One Action casting time with a Bonus Action time casting. The two effects are similar, but you do not insist that casting a Quickened spell requires that you have an Action available in order for Quickening a Spell to convert it to a Bonus Action (and then leave it available for use after your Spell).
The only requirement on your Actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions is that you expend them when an Activity requires you to. If you can do something without expending an Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction, you can do it after you have none left. Availability is not a RAW requirement; it is not even a RAW concept. The only RAW requirement is spending the Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction when you are required to.
Without understanding that the Nick Mastery is designed to be dependent on the ability to use a bonus action, and the initial attack must be the Nicking weapon, just like the other mastery's, then attempts to use Nick outside of those dependent factors is homebrew and not within RAW, and will lead to bigger headaches for both players an DM’s.
The rules only refer to actually taking your action, bonus action, or reaction. Please provide a RAW reference to a requirement to use a bonus action, action, or reaction with actually taking the action. For example, the rules state that "Anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a Bonus Action." However, this prevents you from doing anything that requires you to expend you Bonus Action. It doesn't affect Light or Nick because both properties require you to use the Attack action first. However, anything that removes the Bonus Action requirement from a Bonus Action without putting an additional requirement could bypass the restriction.
It’s overwhelming complexity is what makes it so difficult for most to understand, but any DM worth their salt can work it out. As a longtime DM and player, playing the rules lawyer game goes both ways. As a player, breaking both rules and the DM is something everyone does, as a DM I will allow bending the rules not absolutely breaking them causing more work and headaches for myself. And if other people are willing to allow whatever, that’s fine and dandy, but first the fundamental understanding of what exactly is being broken still needs to be understood and addressed.
You are mistaken on what RAW says. Please, avoid further statements that could be taken offensively. I have been playing D&D since second edition. I have a wide variety of game systems under my belt. I was very active in rules discussions of D&D 3.0 and 3.5 editions which were far more precise with the language than 5e is.
There is uncertainty with Nick as to whether the intention is for the Nick to attack on the initial attack, the extra attack, or either. However, that is all that needs to be clarified.
It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense to require you to use a bonus action to trigger the effect of: not needing to use that bonus action.
The rule must necessarily change the requirement before needing to actually have/use it.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The only requirement on your Actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions is that you expend them when an Activity requires you to. If you can do something without expending an Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction, you can do it after you have none left. Availability is not a RAW requirement; it is not even a RAW concept. The only RAW requirement is spending the Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction when you are required to.
To address this question, Rules state if an ability specifies the timing of an action that action has to occur per the specific requirement, and once that action is taken, the ability to use that action again is no longer available.
Whether Nick needs a Bonus Action isn't a question of timing. "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn." A Dagger costs 2 GP. I can pay 20 SP instead of 2 GP. I don't need to have 2 GP in order to pay 20 SP instead. "Instead" replaces the Bonus Action requirement. It is no longer a part of the requirement to make an extra attack. Timing would be "you can make one extra attack later on the same turn". Nick doesn't change the timing. It only changes that a Bonus Action is required. Once a Bonus Action is not required to be used, the availability of Bonus Actions no longer matters.
If a bonus action is used at any point, any further feature that allows an action to be used as a bonus action thereafter can not be taken, as per RAW on bonus actions.
Yes, if you use your Bonus Action then you cannot use another one on the same turn, everyone understands this.
The question that have some relevance here is if you can still gain potential a Bonus Action option if you have already used your Bonus Action. And if any features you have that gives you potential Bonus Action options are still active if you have used your Bonus Action.
If using a Nick mastery weapon after using a bonus action to make an attack, the ability to make a second different weapon attack as a bonus action is not possible per bonus action RAW rules.
No one is trying to make a second attack as a Bonus Action, we are trying to make an attack as part of the Attack Action (as per the Nick trait). I can see no reason why having a Bonus Action available or not would make a difference.
Just as mentioned with Quickening a spell, if you used your bonus action before the quickening, then you can’t cast the quickened spell, and that is deemed understandable by a lot of people, including yourself.
The fact that you keep making this argument over and over again makes me wonder if you are confused about the question. None of the questions put to you about Quickened Spell has been about what happens if you already have used your Bonus Action, all have been about what happens if you have already used your Action.
To start backwards, the question about quickening is: if you used your primary action doing something else, depending upon WHAT that action WAS, you might be able to use quickening, but it has conditions that are part of spell casting, so giving just a flat out answer of yes or no is not a very good way to get a “gotcha” moment, and anyone who understands that can’t give an absolute answer.
Assuming you didn't expend a spell slot using that action, can you use quickened spell if you have already used your action? If the answer is yes, please explain the difference between this and using nick if you already used your bonus action.
2024 Action Surge also grants the ability to make one additional action, just not the magic action, which means you could use it to make an additional bonus action, but you still only get one use of your bonus action and wasting that surge on just the ability to use one additional bonus action is pointless. ( it’s better used to take the attack action, any other use depends on the situation. )
As a side note, I don't believe that is how it works, but I could be wrong. fighter
2024 Action Surge also grants the ability to make one additional action, just not the magic action, which means you could use it to make an additional bonus action, but you still only get one use of your bonus action and wasting that surge on just the ability to use one additional bonus action is pointless. ( it’s better used to take the attack action, any other use depends on the situation. )
As a side note, I don't believe that is how it works, but I could be wrong. fighter
You're not wrong. Action Surge allows you to take another action, not another bonus action.
The very first printing of the 2014 Player's Handbook had some confusing language about this that made it seem like you could use it to take another bonus action, but it was never intended that way, and they changed it in later printings (and the digital version on D&D Beyond) to reflect that. It is very clearly not allowed in the 2024 version either.
“Instead” means “in lieu of” not “replace”, big difference in context and intent. And yes, Nick does change the timing of the potential extra attack that can be made by ether the Light property Two-weapon Fighting feature or the Dual Wielding Feat, and leaves the ability to use THAT bonus action available for other bonus action use.
I did him a favor instead of paying him because I didn't have the money.
I did him a favor in lieu of paying him because I didn't have the money.
I did him a favor as a replacement for paying him because I didn't have the money.
( Extra: even if you paid 200 copper, or 4 electrum for that Dagger, you still spent the money to get that one dagger didn’t you. Different means same result, you got a dagger for the same 2 gold regardless. )
I paid money, but I didn't pay 2 gold. I paid 20 silver as an accepted substitute, 20 silver instead of 2 gold, 20 silver in place of 2 gold, 20 silver in lieu of 2 gold. And I didn't have to have any gold on my person because when I used 20 silver instead of 2 gold, the 20 silver requirement for a dagger replaced the 2 gold requirement completely.
I feel at this point we might need to make another thread, (or find one of the existing ones already discussing whether Nick needs you to have a bonus action available), as it's taking over this thread and derailing from the initial topic of how Nick interacts specifically with shadow blade. I understand these topics are connected, but we seem to have gone on a tangent here. Perhaps time to refocus on Shadow Blade + Nick or decide if that has already been answered and the only discussion left is the one better taken to it's own thread?
I feel at this point we might need to make another thread, (or find one of the existing ones already discussing whether Nick needs you to have a bonus action available), as it's taking over this thread and derailing from the initial topic of how Nick interacts specifically with shadow blade. I understand these topics are connected, but we seem to have gone on a tangent here. Perhaps time to refocus on Shadow Blade + Nick or decide if that has already been answered and the only discussion left is the one better taken to it's own thread?
I feel at this point we might need to make another thread, (or find one of the existing ones already discussing whether Nick needs you to have a bonus action available), as it's taking over this thread and derailing from the initial topic of how Nick interacts specifically with shadow blade. I understand these topics are connected, but we seem to have gone on a tangent here. Perhaps time to refocus on Shadow Blade + Nick or decide if that has already been answered and the only discussion left is the one better taken to it's own thread?
That debate is different then this debate, primarily due to the inclusion of a factor of Shadow Blade as a leved spell at is cast as a bonus action, and the Nick weapon mastery relates to bonus actions.
[Redacted]
Quoted by SmiteMakesRight_3_5:
Nick Weapon Mastery never states that it has to be the initial weapon or the follow up attack. I won't argue that you can have a dagger in your pocket and benefit from the Nick Mastery attacking only with Shortswords. However, if using a Dagger and Shortsword, there is no RAW requirement to use the Dagger or the Shortsword first.
This is HouseRule and NOT factual Rules as Written. [Redacted]
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
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To address the first partial quote; the nick mastery only applies when using the weapon that has the nick mastery as it’s ability. That means to activate the nick ability, the nick weapon has to be used first. If you can’t use a bonus action then you don’t get the extra/additional attack the light property grants, and nick can’t be used, period ( because of the general rules of bonus action. Just because a feature grants an action that can be used as a bonus action doesn’t mean it resets the bonus action use, it just means that WHEN you use a bonus action a lot of choices are available and only one can be used.
As to the other partial post, I only ever glanced at the 2024 book, and I’m fairly certain Two-Weapon Fighting is in the very back in glossary, per usual, while the FEAT of the same name is not as hidden.
As to the needing a bonus action to use nick, let me be clear:
You Need The Ability to be able to Use a Bonus Action, if you CANNOT Use a Bonus Action, you CANNOT Use Nick Mastery.
As to the post where the words bonus action is edited, that’s incorrect. That attempts to rewrite the original intent of the rule and circumvent the rules on Bonus Actions, whats next removing the once per turn of the Nick Mastery? ( with all due regard, the logic that Nick can apply to an attack that is being made as a bonus attack is Homebrew and NOT RAW. and the design is another FAIL mark for the designer. )
So, like the other user I will ask that if you use quotes from other post, please use the entire post, not just partial elements that attempt to inaccurately portray the context of the conversation.
And basically IMO, we can agree that we disagree about exactly how Nick functions and can agree a total redesign is required, correct?
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I am always going to cut posts down to the relevant portion because there is no need for walls of text trying to figure out what part you are replying to. I would appreciate it if you did the same for clarity. Please feel free to explain what portion of your post you think I cut that changed the context when quoted in my reply. I would appreciate it if you did not make unfounded accusations about my intentions.
Nick Weapon Mastery never states that it has to be the initial weapon or the follow up attack. I won't argue that you can have a dagger in your pocket and benefit from the Nick Mastery attacking only with Shortswords. However, if using a Dagger and Shortsword, there is no RAW requirement to use the Dagger or the Shortsword first.
Nothing ever requires the ability to use Bonus Actions. That does not exist. You either use a Bonus Action to do a thing that uses Bonus Actions or there is no requirement related to Bonus Actions. "You Need The Ability to be able to Use a Bonus Action" is something you have invented and never appears in the book.
I looked in the 2024 Player's Handbook beside my desk when you mentioned it and again just now. It is not in the Rule Glossary on page 377 between Truesight and Unarmed Strike. Page 384 has the index entry for "Two-weapon Fighting, Feat" which is page 210 and there is no other reference to Two-weapon Fighting.
We don't have sufficient information to determine RAI. The post I edited is correct according to RAW and the only potential errata or clarification we might see is whether Nick has to be used for the initial attack or for the follow up attack granted by the Light property. There is nothing else that needs clarity. If they remain silent on the matter, then RAW is that the Nick weapon can be used for either attack in order to trigger the bonus. Nick only applies to the extra attack of the Light property; it removes the Bonus Action requirement and restricts the extra attack to once per turn (to prevent each attack with a Light weapon from triggering more attacks). That is all it does.
Let me propose this scenario to you to make sure I understand your position. A level 2 character with Nick Weapon Mastery casts Misty Step using a Bonus Action.
Which scenario do you think is RAW?
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Yes it should be said. The rules for Nick specifically do NOT call out the weapon used to make the attack. It only requires one of the weapons have the nick property. ALL of the other weapon mastery properties require the weapon being used to make the specific attack to have the property. The Nick property is the only one that does NOT state that requirement.
Your comment " It should not need to be stated that a weapon mastery only applies with the weapon it's used with, but here we are." is disingenuous because THAT is exactly what the rules for this weapon mastery property state. The specific weapon with the Nick property does NOT need to be used for the bonus action attack - only one of the two weapons need to have the Nick property for the bonus action attack allowed by the light property to be moved into the Attack action. That is exactly what the rules state.
Here are the rules for reference:
"Mastery Properties
Each weapon has a mastery property, which is usable only by a character who has a feature, such as Weapon Mastery, that unlocks the property for the character. The properties are defined below."
The weapon mastery property is unlocked for the character by having the Weapon Mastery feature and selecting that specific weapon. The properties are specifically defined by the text for each property.
"Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
This does NOT state that the extra attack of the light property must be made with the weapon with the Nick property. This only requires that the character be wielding a weapon with the Nick property and have that Weapon Mastery. Reading any more into that is creating rules that do not exist.
Compare this to every other weapon property:
"Push
If you hit a creature with this weapon, you can push the creature up to 10 feet straight away from yourself if it is Large or smaller."
AND all the rest:
Cleave: If you hit a creature with a melee attack roll using this weapon,
Graze: If your attack roll with this weapon misses a creature,
Sap: If you hit a creature with this weapon,
...
EVERY single other weapon mastery property requires the attack be made with that weapon to obtain the effect. The Nick property explicitly leaves out that requirement. It seems obvious to me that if the requirement was included in every other weapon mastery property that leaving it out of the Nick property was completely intentional. A character does not need to use the Nick weapon for the moved bonus attack - all that is required is that the character be using a nick weapon which then allows them to move the attack from the light property into the attack action with whichever light weapon they have in the other hand ... whether or not that specific weapon has the Nick property.
If I quote another members post, I am replying to that individual only, not multiple members like others do, and prefer to use entire post because the very first member that is referenced is the member that is being conversed with. So with all due respect, no I will not piecemeal a post to argue in bad-faith.
And with that to finally answer the last part of your post, if you Bonus Action Misty Step, by RAW and rules of said Bonus Actions you can not use or take another bonus action no matter what thereafter as only ONE bonus action can be taken on a turn. Therefore, you can not after bonus action misty step then use any Nick type action as the ability to take a bonus attack / extra attack/ additional attack action is no longer an option as that attack is dependent on the ability to take a bonus action.
the statement:
Only demonstrates the fact that in the rules a great number of elements require the use of a bonus action for that element to be utilized. And Nick has to be used when the weapon that has the nick mastery is the weapon making an attack, just as other weapons with a mastery are used to envoke their specific mastery ability, and Nick is no different.
[Redacted]
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
The 2024 Player's Handbook stops on page 384. I am looking in a book in hand. It's not in the Index and it's not in the Rules Glossary. It may be somewhere else, but I would be surprised. The 2014 Two-weapon Fighting is word-for-word the 2024 Light property. The only thing that changed is the name and the location where the rule is printed (combat vs equipment).
If you are making an extra attack via the Nick Weapon Mastery, no Bonus Action is used so the limit on Bonus Action doesn't apply. Nick removes the requirement to use a Bonus Action. Without Nick, there is no requirement to use the Bonus Action from the Light action after the Attack action. You just have to use it after the first attack with a light weapon, but it can otherwise be any time during turn, including between attacks during the Attack action.
Edit: removed unnecessary prior quotes that were difficult to do on my phone.
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It's not. The two-weapon fighting rules are scattered, which is, I admit, not ideal.
All the relevant rules are in chapters 5 and 6:
Light and Dual Wielder give you abilities that let you make additional attacks, and Nick and TWF modify those abilities.
Yes. The question of what it means to "trigger the ability" is undefined, however. Until we get a clarification, it's GM's call, but "you have to use a Nick weapon for one of the attacks" is a safe baseline assumption.
Here's what Nick actually says:
It explicitly says you are not making the attack as a bonus action.
Therefore, you do not need to have a bonus action available. And if you do, you can use it for some other ability.
You cannot use it for the extra attack of the light property because Nick says you may make that extra attack only once per turn, and you already used it when you made the Nick attack.
Nick's attack and the restrictions it places are entirely separated from the Bonus Action economy.
Additionally, you can use that Bonus Action for the attack granted by Dual Wielder, because that is not the extra attack of the Light property -- it's the extra attack of the Dual Wielder feat. You only get to do it once because you run out of Bonus actions.
(I have no idea what, if anything, you were arguing about the DW attack; I just thought I should stick it in for clarity.)
Edit: The argument that you can't take the Nick attack unless you have a bonus action available would imply that you can't use Quickened Spell unless you still have your Action available.
(I suppose it's possible that the two of you would argue that that is the case. But it's still a clarifying example IMO)
I would never consider the ability of someone to recall page references or even general text references after skimming the book as a reflection on the book itself. Perhaps you are a particularly talented speed reader, but I hope you are not spending significant time reading through a book you have no intention of buying unless your local store has a designated sample copy. I would be upset if someone thoroughly read the book I thought I was buying new.
Nick says "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action [emphasis added]. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."
"Instead of as a Bonus Action" means you no longer use a Bonus Action; the Bonus Action is completely removed from the extra attack requirements. Instead of means that the Bonus Action required is replaced with the Attack action.
Excellent example. If you use a bonus action earlier in the turn, you cannot use Quickened Spell to cast the Spell as a Bonus Action.
When you spend the 2 Sorcery Points, the casting time of a spell, Charm Person for example, becomes 1 Bonus Action instead of 1 Action. If you use your Action before casting a Quickened Charm Person, you no longer have an action available to cast a spell as an Action, but as long as you have not used your Bonus Action, you can still cast the Quickened Charm Person. "...to change the casting time to a Bonus Action for this casting", "... to replace the casting time with a Bonus Action for this casting", "... to cast the spell as a Bonus Action instead of a Magic Action" are all different ways to say the exact same thing. Quickened Spell does not require that you maintain the ability to cast a spell as an action in order to instead cast it as Bonus Action.
The same applies with Nick. Once Nick changes the extra attack, there is no Bonus Action necessary; that action cost has been replaced and it is now part of the Attack action. There is no requirement to be able to use a Bonus Action. Any time doing something does not use your Bonus Action, you do not need to be able to use Bonus Actions in order to do that thing. That applies whether we are talking about not using Bonus Actions, Reactions, or Actions.
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(emphasis mine)
[Redacted] They said you implied you can't use quickened spell if you don't have your action - not bonus action.
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ModeratorFolk, if your posts are 90% quote that takes up a good deal of the page, you might want to consider cutting them down for readability and to make sure you're focusing on the points you want to discuss. You might also want to consider if you're focusing more on debating the user, more than discussing the points.
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That's awesome and rare. I hope you revisit it sometime as I think the changes are overall positive but require some extended time to really appreciate. There are some changes I will be discarding, background specific attribute boosts and set origin feats per background primarily, but that does ruin the lot for me.
I am not asking about the Bonus Action to Quicken a Spell. To be eligible to Quicken a Spell the Spell must have a casting time of 1 Action. If you use your action; you attacked, you cast a cantrip, etcetera, can you cast a Quickened Spell? You have claimed that Nick requires that you be able to use a Bonus Action in order for Nick to convert the Bonus Action into part of the Attack Action and not use the Bonus Action. My question to you is Does casting a Quickened Spell require that you be able to use an Action in order for Quickened Spell to convert the casting time into a Bonus Action and not use the Action? What is your stance on that.
There is dispute about whether Nick requires the initial strike to be with the Nick weapon or the second attack, but you are the only one arguing that Nick requires the ability to use a Bonus Action. I am interested in if you think Quickened Spells require the ability to use an Action before you cast them as a Bonus Action.
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Okay. I had some work to repair the formatted of the quoting text. Forgive me if anything is off.
This is the reason I asked the question. Nick and Quickening a Spell both change the actions required to perform an activity. Nick replaces a Bonus Action with part of the Attack Action and adds "once per turn". Quickening a Spell replaces a One Action casting time with a Bonus Action time casting. The two effects are similar, but you do not insist that casting a Quickened spell requires that you have an Action available in order for Quickening a Spell to convert it to a Bonus Action (and then leave it available for use after your Spell).
The only requirement on your Actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions is that you expend them when an Activity requires you to. If you can do something without expending an Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction, you can do it after you have none left. Availability is not a RAW requirement; it is not even a RAW concept. The only RAW requirement is spending the Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction when you are required to.
The rules only refer to actually taking your action, bonus action, or reaction. Please provide a RAW reference to a requirement to use a bonus action, action, or reaction with actually taking the action. For example, the rules state that "Anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a Bonus Action." However, this prevents you from doing anything that requires you to expend you Bonus Action. It doesn't affect Light or Nick because both properties require you to use the Attack action first. However, anything that removes the Bonus Action requirement from a Bonus Action without putting an additional requirement could bypass the restriction.
You are mistaken on what RAW says. Please, avoid further statements that could be taken offensively. I have been playing D&D since second edition. I have a wide variety of game systems under my belt. I was very active in rules discussions of D&D 3.0 and 3.5 editions which were far more precise with the language than 5e is.
There is uncertainty with Nick as to whether the intention is for the Nick to attack on the initial attack, the extra attack, or either. However, that is all that needs to be clarified.
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It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense to require you to use a bonus action to trigger the effect of: not needing to use that bonus action.
The rule must necessarily change the requirement before needing to actually have/use it.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Whether Nick needs a Bonus Action isn't a question of timing. "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn." A Dagger costs 2 GP. I can pay 20 SP instead of 2 GP. I don't need to have 2 GP in order to pay 20 SP instead. "Instead" replaces the Bonus Action requirement. It is no longer a part of the requirement to make an extra attack. Timing would be "you can make one extra attack later on the same turn". Nick doesn't change the timing. It only changes that a Bonus Action is required. Once a Bonus Action is not required to be used, the availability of Bonus Actions no longer matters.
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Yes, if you use your Bonus Action then you cannot use another one on the same turn, everyone understands this.
The question that have some relevance here is if you can still gain potential a Bonus Action option if you have already used your Bonus Action. And if any features you have that gives you potential Bonus Action options are still active if you have used your Bonus Action.
No one is trying to make a second attack as a Bonus Action, we are trying to make an attack as part of the Attack Action (as per the Nick trait). I can see no reason why having a Bonus Action available or not would make a difference.
The fact that you keep making this argument over and over again makes me wonder if you are confused about the question. None of the questions put to you about Quickened Spell has been about what happens if you already have used your Bonus Action, all have been about what happens if you have already used your Action.
Assuming you didn't expend a spell slot using that action, can you use quickened spell if you have already used your action? If the answer is yes, please explain the difference between this and using nick if you already used your bonus action.
As a side note, I don't believe that is how it works, but I could be wrong. fighter
You're not wrong. Action Surge allows you to take another action, not another bonus action.
The very first printing of the 2014 Player's Handbook had some confusing language about this that made it seem like you could use it to take another bonus action, but it was never intended that way, and they changed it in later printings (and the digital version on D&D Beyond) to reflect that. It is very clearly not allowed in the 2024 version either.
pronouns: he/she/they
"Instead of" at Merriam Webster:
"I chose tea instead of coffee."
"Replace" definition at Merriam Webster:
replace cards in a file
replace a worn carpet
Instead of and replace literally mean the same thing in English.
I paid money, but I didn't pay 2 gold. I paid 20 silver as an accepted substitute, 20 silver instead of 2 gold, 20 silver in place of 2 gold, 20 silver in lieu of 2 gold. And I didn't have to have any gold on my person because when I used 20 silver instead of 2 gold, the 20 silver requirement for a dagger replaced the 2 gold requirement completely.
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ModeratorI feel at this point we might need to make another thread, (or find one of the existing ones already discussing whether Nick needs you to have a bonus action available), as it's taking over this thread and derailing from the initial topic of how Nick interacts specifically with shadow blade. I understand these topics are connected, but we seem to have gone on a tangent here. Perhaps time to refocus on Shadow Blade + Nick or decide if that has already been answered and the only discussion left is the one better taken to it's own thread?
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I agree. The same debate already exists in this thread: Someone Explain Nick - Rules & Game Mechanics
That debate is different then this debate, primarily due to the inclusion of a factor of Shadow Blade as a leved spell at is cast as a bonus action, and the Nick weapon mastery relates to bonus actions.
[Redacted]
Quoted by SmiteMakesRight_3_5:
Nick Weapon Mastery never states that it has to be the initial weapon or the follow up attack. I won't argue that you can have a dagger in your pocket and benefit from the Nick Mastery attacking only with Shortswords. However, if using a Dagger and Shortsword, there is no RAW requirement to use the Dagger or the Shortsword first.
This is HouseRule and NOT factual Rules as Written. [Redacted]
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.